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Phenoms going under (3 Viewers)

fatness said:
Business Card
default_contact_photo_60.gif

Mr. Michael Zangrilli
SkyBox Sports Grille Street Address: Phone: 1-801-712-1875
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http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OhBpcXjkbykJ:arabic.alibaba.com/product-free/free-shipping-for-new-2014-honda-trx420-rancher-4wd-hr-mud-pro-series-atv-4x4-authentic-100-warranty-50004302834.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
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Skybox Sports Grille is closed (2 years maybe)... that was in the Gateway Center across the street from Energy Solutions Arena.

 
So, looking forward. One of the main reasons I liked about Phenoms was that it had a lower rake than other sites I had seen.

Any suggestions for the next place to eventually rip me off?

W666

 
East Coast Bias said:
He logged in to Timleeg to adjust his lineup an hour ago. Love that he is still setting his lineup even though there isn't money for payouts. That's dedication.
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Maybe this is a positive sign?! If he thought it was pointless he would ignore it, maybe the fact that he is trying means he might be inching closer to a deal behind the scenes?

Just thinking out loud here..

 
correction - I spoke with my credit card company who looked into it further and stated I was only charged once

 
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17seconds said:
cstu said:
I think that makes sense with his math as he is saying he lost 600k plus on the web designer and will pay back 20 to 40%
Click to expand...
Let me insert some logic...

Let's assume the web development story was true...even if the new website was 100% fully functional after spending $600k, how was he going to pay league fees?

It's :bs: , folks.
Click to expand...
Most likely he saw it going north of $200K some time ago and started looking for investors. Maybe he had a deal that looked like it was going to happen and he foolishly let the dev costs continue to mount. Then the deal fell through. Of course there are many things he could have done to stop the bleeding to keep the business solvent so he totally ####ed up.

It makes no sense to me that a guy who builds a business and does good by everyone for many years decides to run away with 1 season of deposits. Especially when FF has really exploded in the last couple of years. He stands to do much better keeping the site going. The scam theory doesn't add up to me.

The only plausible thing to me that borders on immoral is if he thought his site was going in the tank because of all the big boys outdoing him, he took a shot at having his site redone, didn't like the result, and just bailed.
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I just dont see the logic in paying some web developer far more than expected to produce a product to support a customer base he is losing. If you are going to pay one or the other, I would think you would keep the customers happy and not pay the web developer. Even if the new web site was completed, whats the point of having it with no customers to use it?

Even if he had some contractual obligation to the web developer, what is the difference if he is filing for bankrupcy anyways?

With happy customers, he could shut down "Phenoms Enterprises LLC" today, start up "Phenomzzz Enterprises LLC" tomorrow, and have the same base of loyal customers to play there.

Bottom line - He should be offering these web developers the 20-40cents on the dollar and paying us in full. That would make the most business sense.

W666

 
weinster666 said:
17seconds said:
cstu said:
I think that makes sense with his math as he is saying he lost 600k plus on the web designer and will pay back 20 to 40%
Click to expand...
Let me insert some logic...

Let's assume the web development story was true...even if the new website was 100% fully functional after spending $600k, how was he going to pay league fees?

It's :bs: , folks.
Click to expand...
Most likely he saw it going north of $200K some time ago and started looking for investors. Maybe he had a deal that looked like it was going to happen and he foolishly let the dev costs continue to mount. Then the deal fell through. Of course there are many things he could have done to stop the bleeding to keep the business solvent so he totally ####ed up.

It makes no sense to me that a guy who builds a business and does good by everyone for many years decides to run away with 1 season of deposits. Especially when FF has really exploded in the last couple of years. He stands to do much better keeping the site going. The scam theory doesn't add up to me.

The only plausible thing to me that borders on immoral is if he thought his site was going in the tank because of all the big boys outdoing him, he took a shot at having his site redone, didn't like the result, and just bailed.
Click to expand...
I just dont see the logic in paying some web developer far more than expected to produce a product to support a customer base he is losing. If you are going to pay one or the other, I would think you would keep the customers happy and not pay the web developer. Even if the new web site was completed, whats the point of having it with no customers to use it?

Even if he had some contractual obligation to the web developer, what is the difference if he is filing for bankrupcy anyways?

With happy customers, he could shut down "Phenoms Enterprises LLC" today, start up "Phenomzzz Enterprises LLC" tomorrow, and have the same base of loyal customers to play there.

Bottom line - He should be offering these web developers the 20-40cents on the dollar and paying us in full. That would make the most business sense.

W666
Click to expand...
If he actually paid these guys $630k in cash when the original contract was for $200k, then either they are in on the scam or he is the dumbest guy on the planet.

 
weinster666 said:
17seconds said:
cstu said:
I think that makes sense with his math as he is saying he lost 600k plus on the web designer and will pay back 20 to 40%
Click to expand...
Let me insert some logic...

Let's assume the web development story was true...even if the new website was 100% fully functional after spending $600k, how was he going to pay league fees?

It's :bs: , folks.
Click to expand...
Most likely he saw it going north of $200K some time ago and started looking for investors. Maybe he had a deal that looked like it was going to happen and he foolishly let the dev costs continue to mount. Then the deal fell through. Of course there are many things he could have done to stop the bleeding to keep the business solvent so he totally ####ed up.

It makes no sense to me that a guy who builds a business and does good by everyone for many years decides to run away with 1 season of deposits. Especially when FF has really exploded in the last couple of years. He stands to do much better keeping the site going. The scam theory doesn't add up to me.

The only plausible thing to me that borders on immoral is if he thought his site was going in the tank because of all the big boys outdoing him, he took a shot at having his site redone, didn't like the result, and just bailed.
Click to expand...
I just dont see the logic in paying some web developer far more than expected to produce a product to support a customer base he is losing. If you are going to pay one or the other, I would think you would keep the customers happy and not pay the web developer. Even if the new web site was completed, whats the point of having it with no customers to use it?

Even if he had some contractual obligation to the web developer, what is the difference if he is filing for bankrupcy anyways?

With happy customers, he could shut down "Phenoms Enterprises LLC" today, start up "Phenomzzz Enterprises LLC" tomorrow, and have the same base of loyal customers to play there.

Bottom line - He should be offering these web developers the 20-40cents on the dollar and paying us in full. That would make the most business sense.

W666
Click to expand...
The web developer is probably suing him.

I've played on Phenoms for about 8 years. The one thing I never liked about it is it didn't have its own site. I'm not a big fan of MFL and it was weird to draft with ESPN too. If it were my business I would have been trying to make my own league management site too. He ran the leagues very well and had a loyal customer base so you could always count on leagues filling, and it was ideal for keeper/dynasty. But from a website/presentation perspective he was basically running a patchwork operation and I think he would have been steamrolled by other sites if he didn't modernize.

 
ArbyMelt said:
weinster666 said:
17seconds said:
cstu said:
I think that makes sense with his math as he is saying he lost 600k plus on the web designer and will pay back 20 to 40%
Click to expand...
Let me insert some logic...

Let's assume the web development story was true...even if the new website was 100% fully functional after spending $600k, how was he going to pay league fees?

It's :bs: , folks.
Click to expand...
Most likely he saw it going north of $200K some time ago and started looking for investors. Maybe he had a deal that looked like it was going to happen and he foolishly let the dev costs continue to mount. Then the deal fell through. Of course there are many things he could have done to stop the bleeding to keep the business solvent so he totally ####ed up.

It makes no sense to me that a guy who builds a business and does good by everyone for many years decides to run away with 1 season of deposits. Especially when FF has really exploded in the last couple of years. He stands to do much better keeping the site going. The scam theory doesn't add up to me.

The only plausible thing to me that borders on immoral is if he thought his site was going in the tank because of all the big boys outdoing him, he took a shot at having his site redone, didn't like the result, and just bailed.
Click to expand...
I just dont see the logic in paying some web developer far more than expected to produce a product to support a customer base he is losing. If you are going to pay one or the other, I would think you would keep the customers happy and not pay the web developer. Even if the new web site was completed, whats the point of having it with no customers to use it?

Even if he had some contractual obligation to the web developer, what is the difference if he is filing for bankrupcy anyways?

With happy customers, he could shut down "Phenoms Enterprises LLC" today, start up "Phenomzzz Enterprises LLC" tomorrow, and have the same base of loyal customers to play there.

Bottom line - He should be offering these web developers the 20-40cents on the dollar and paying us in full. That would make the most business sense.

W666
Click to expand...
If he actually paid these guys $630k in cash when the original contract was for $200k, then either they are in on the scam or he is the dumbest guy on the planet.
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Exactly what I was saying earlier, even if it is true... no way you disclose the actual numbers like that. Even his gmail lawyer would have advised against that.

 
BTW, you guys know that it's very common for a software development project to take 3X the original budget right? I don't think the $630K is a made-up number. You need to know how to handle project costs spinning out of control. The $200K plan was probably 2 or 3 developers for less than a year and it was on Mike to manage it properly.

 
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  • Smile
Reactions: Ned
I will say it is a little fishy that his "lawyer"'s email address is a gmail account phenomslegal@gmail.com..

If it were a legit lawyer, he would have a legitimate email address I would think..

 
17seconds said:
BTW, you guys know that it's very common for a software development project to take 3X the original budget right? I don't think the $630K is a made-up number. You need to know how to handle project costs spinning out of control. The $200K plan was probably 2 or 3 developers for less than a year and it was on Mike to manage it properly.
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He says he outsourced to a company, I don't think he just hired a few guys on his own and paid them. How would he sue these individuals he hired???? Sue himself? Of course, he could be lying

"In November of 2013, Phenoms hired a web development company to develop a full fantasy league hosting platform"

"Phenoms is weighing legal action against the developer"

 
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TheWalk84 said:
I will say it is a little fishy that his "lawyer"'s email address is a gmail account phenomslegal@gmail.com..

If it were a legit lawyer, he would have a legitimate email address I would think..
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That is not his lawyers email. He is just setting that up as a holding place. I doubt he has a lawyer at this time.

 
TheWalk84 said:
I will say it is a little fishy that his "lawyer"'s email address is a gmail account phenomslegal@gmail.com..

If it were a legit lawyer, he would have a legitimate email address I would think..
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Its pretty obvious he doesn't have a lawyer yet. He needs to get one soon.

 
adb255 said:
All,


I was in a Phenoms high stakes league and made the playoffs; my money is now gone. I am taking action and need your help. I've listed contacts below where we can report Mike. I've already done it but the authorities made clear to me that for people to go after him WE NEED EVERYONE SCAMMED TO FILE A COMPLAINT. The more the better.

If you want evidence of how much a crook Mike is, check out a Google cache of his website. He had previously said that many would be kept securely in a Wells Fargo account and we were assured of payouts:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LdMybAuziHYJ:https://www.phenomsff.com/prizes/prizes.php&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The reason you need a Google cache to read it is that he changed his website today to remove the statement about safekeeping funds.

Here are links if you want to file complaints:

https://complaint.ic3.gov/ (Internet Crime Complaint Center)

http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/complaint-form (Utah Attorney General)

I also called the local police where Mike lives in Murray, Utah (801-264-2673).

I know it's annoying to fill these out and call, but it doesn't take that long and really will help.

Also, here are the details on Mike's business and his home address (for the complaint forms):

[SIZE=10pt]PHENOM ENTERPRISES, LLC[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Entity Number: 7970115-0160[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Company Type: LLC - Domestic[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Address: 457 E 5600 S UNIT B Murray, UT 84107 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]State of Origin: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Registered Agent: MICHAEL D ZANGRILLI [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Registered Agent Address: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]457 E 5600 S UNIT B [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Murray, UT 84107[/SIZE]

I won't stop until Mike is in jail. He's a thief and ponzi schemer--join in if you want justice. Like I said, the only way to get this guy is for everyone to complain so the authorities know how many victims there are.

Also, I'm a lawyer and he has no right to decide to pay certain people and refund certain deposits at this point. The business is insolvent (bankrupt). A trustee/court needs to figure out who is owed what.
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icon_collapse.gif
Real Properties - 1 records found 1: 457 E 5600 S Apt B, Salt Lake City, UT 84107-6251 Salt Lake County Source: B Address: 457 E 5600 S Apt BSalt Lake City, UT 84107-6251 County: Salt Lake Source: B Status: Current State: UT Owner Info Name: Zangrilli, Michael D Address: 457 E 5600 S Apt B

Salt Lake City, UT 84107-6251 Legal Info Parcel Number: 22-18-204-011 Document Type: Assessor Assessed Value: $95,300.00 Market Land Value: $28,600.00 Total Market Value: $95,300.00 Type of Address: Condominium
Get at him?

 
17seconds said:
BTW, you guys know that it's very common for a software development project to take 3X the original budget right? I don't think the $630K is a made-up number. You need to know how to handle project costs spinning out of control. The $200K plan was probably 2 or 3 developers for less than a year and it was on Mike to manage it properly.
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That is fair, the only thing is, he was paying the "extra" costs with customer money that he only had access to for a few months..

I still think there is a chance Mike can secure a deal to make this right...

He may have to give up control, but there is enough money for ROI to project potential profitability even after an infusing cash this year..

The key to everything though, and every deal he could be looking at, is he HAS to make everyone whole THIS year and show transparency in the following years that funds would be segregated...

Not saying it is likely, but I just feel there is a chance..

 
17seconds said:
BTW, you guys know that it's very common for a software development project to take 3X the original budget right? I don't think the $630K is a made-up number. You need to know how to handle project costs spinning out of control. The $200K plan was probably 2 or 3 developers for less than a year and it was on Mike to manage it properly.
Click to expand...
How would giving money held in escrow to developers work out for him?

No way is anyone that stupid...when the truth comes out the developer story will either be made up or involve co-conspirators of his.

 
Limp Ditka said:
Pipes said:
Limp Ditka said:
Soaring Eagle said:
I just counted the number of phenoms leagues there were....765!!!!

they were $50 to $1000 (some were more)

so let's underestimate and say the average was $100 (probably low balling)

12 teams each = $1200 x 765 = $918,000 so probably over a million

I think that makes sense with his math as he is saying he lost 600k plus on the web designer and will pay back 20 to 40%

regardless looks like we trusted over 1 million dollars to this guy
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Way to be the 12th person to crunch these numbers!
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Way to be an ###.
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Oh. Poor poor pipes. Did you lose money to the mysterious bad boogie man on the internet too?
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No I didn't...never even heard of Phenoms until this post. I'm just don't enjoy kicking people while they are down. Merry Christmas.

 
17seconds said:
The web developer is probably suing him.

I've played on Phenoms for about 8 years. The one thing I never liked about it is it didn't have its own site. I'm not a big fan of MFL and it was weird to draft with ESPN too. If it were my business I would have been trying to make my own league management site too. He ran the leagues very well and had a loyal customer base so you could always count on leagues filling, and it was ideal for keeper/dynasty. But from a website/presentation perspective he was basically running a patchwork operation and I think he would have been steamrolled by other sites if he didn't modernize.
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Occam's Razor says he knew he had a failing business model and ran off with the cash.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
I don't get the need to laugh and rub this in by some. Blaming the victims basically.

Sucks what happened.
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Agreed, this is not the victim's fault. I never joined because I didn't like the idea of 'buying' a team through a hosting site but it was in business long enough that I didn't think this was going to happen.

 
thetman said:
John Bender said:
He might be trying to fix this but you don't

A. Delete your existence from the board and all forms of social media if you're an up and up guy. He's trying to hide... That's what these actions say. That's not good for anyone.

B. Use pool money for website upgrades in the first place. That's not your profit. That money is not yours, it's the customers.

You take out a business loan. If you put up the 200k and costs for the website exceed it, you cut your losses or find a solution. That's how you run a business.

Who is going to buy a business when you're going into it already owing hundreds of thousands to your "customers"

I don't care what the user base is, most of those folks are going to have a horrible taste in their mouth. Under this xtreme optimal conditions you might make your money back in 3 years.

Not happening.
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I can understand getting rid of his accounts to avoid the flood of negative posts he was sure to receive. Using the prize money was his fatal mistake, but is it criminal? I'm not sure.
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If it's not criminal, it ought to be.

 
cstu said:
17seconds said:
The web developer is probably suing him.

I've played on Phenoms for about 8 years. The one thing I never liked about it is it didn't have its own site. I'm not a big fan of MFL and it was weird to draft with ESPN too. If it were my business I would have been trying to make my own league management site too. He ran the leagues very well and had a loyal customer base so you could always count on leagues filling, and it was ideal for keeper/dynasty. But from a website/presentation perspective he was basically running a patchwork operation and I think he would have been steamrolled by other sites if he didn't modernize.
Click to expand...
Occam's Razor says he knew he had a failing business model and ran off with the cash.
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He was paying MFL to run his leagues. I'm guessing he thought in the long run hosting his own leagues was the way to go. Well it cost him. I doubt he was trying to screw us. But in the end...we got screwed.

 
Having a hard time with this one. Been around since Mike's Greek Leagues in the late 1990s/early 2000s. Never had a problem getting paid. Have won probably 3x what I've put in. Have had much direct email contact with Mike over the years for one reason or another. He seemed like a decent dude.

Not giving him the benefit of the doubt here though. He made a critical mistake in using prize money to "upgrade" his business. If he hadn't ####ed this up, he'd have a nice little business to run for years and years to come.

Not sure I buy the web developer story. Might be true; might be drugs, divorce, gambling, illness, wtf knows. Worth the energy to be angry? Not sure.

 
TheWalk84 said:
I will say it is a little fishy that his "lawyer"'s email address is a gmail account phenomslegal@gmail.com..

If it were a legit lawyer, he would have a legitimate email address I would think..
Click to expand...
I'm sure he does (assuming there is a real lawyer) and this mailbox was set up only to deal with this issue. I'm sure he wouldn't want his real business email account flooded with this.

 
Yamato said:
cstu said:
17seconds said:
The web developer is probably suing him.

I've played on Phenoms for about 8 years. The one thing I never liked about it is it didn't have its own site. I'm not a big fan of MFL and it was weird to draft with ESPN too. If it were my business I would have been trying to make my own league management site too. He ran the leagues very well and had a loyal customer base so you could always count on leagues filling, and it was ideal for keeper/dynasty. But from a website/presentation perspective he was basically running a patchwork operation and I think he would have been steamrolled by other sites if he didn't modernize.
Click to expand...
Occam's Razor says he knew he had a failing business model and ran off with the cash.
Click to expand...
He was paying MFL to run his leagues. I'm guessing he thought in the long run hosting his own leagues was the way to go. Well it cost him. I doubt he was trying to screw us. But in the end...we got screwed.
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I am leaning toward this same assessment of his business plan, but I wouldnt say he had a failing business before hand. If we go with the estimates others have stated, he brings in approx. $1million from entry fees, and, @ 10% admin fee on average, Phenoms grosses $100,000/yr. Some of that goes to the web services hosting www.phenomsff.com , and some costs to MFL to run the leagues, maybe Phenoms pulls in $60,000/yr as a rough estimate. Since Phenoms is a one-man show, that means Mike is making $60K a year for basically a side-job. He puts in some serious time during the draft timeframe, but I cant imagine a whole lot after that. Settle some disputes as they come up. He can probably do that from his phone while working his real job.

He wasnt making a million and retiring, but it also isnt a bad gig.

He should have left well enough alone.

W666

 
weinster666 said:
So, looking forward. One of the main reasons I liked about Phenoms was that it had a lower rake than other sites I had seen.

Any suggestions for the next place to eventually rip me off?

W666
Click to expand...
Why not just run your own leagues (or find a commish) on MFL? Other than the MFL fee, there's zero rake, all the money goes into the prize pool.

 
Does anyone know if there was any legal action ever brought against AntSports for similar activity, not paying winners?

I played in AntSports for years. I switched over to Phenoms after Antsports tanked...unbelievable.

Any suggestions for FF next year?

 
MissionCoach said:
Does anyone know if there was any legal action ever brought against AntSports for similar activity, not paying winners?

I played in AntSports for years. I switched over to Phenoms after Antsports tanked...unbelievable.

Any suggestions for FF next year?
Click to expand...
Join a MFL league that uses LeagueSafe.

 
Mike used to give out championship medals with red, white, and blue lanyards. I won a couple of championships in 2010, got promptly paid, and the medals came shortly thereafter. I gave the medals to my son who really got a kick out of them. When I won the next year two more championships, I asked Mike about the medals that never came. He responded to my emai by telling me nobody cared about medals, only the prize money. He did offer me one of the leftover medals from 2010 he had in a drawer somewhere, but I declined. I was a little put off by it, but at least I got paid. He did change up the website league rules that made no mention of medals the next year. But I always thought it was fishy that didn't have medals made for league champs as promised per the rules, and tried to sweep that minor detail under the rug. I shrugged it off, but it should have been a red flag.

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
weinster666 said:
So, looking forward. One of the main reasons I liked about Phenoms was that it had a lower rake than other sites I had seen.

Any suggestions for the next place to eventually rip me off?

W666
Click to expand...
Why not just run your own leagues (or find a commish) on MFL? Other than the MFL fee, there's zero rake, all the money goes into the prize pool.
Click to expand...
How about redrafts? I did two Phenoms leagues this year where I drafted within two hours of joining. Just decided to do them on a whim because I like to draft. There's a convenience factor that IMO, offsets the rake when looking at redrafts in particular.

 
weinster666 said:
I am leaning toward this same assessment of his business plan, but I wouldnt say he had a failing business before hand. If we go with the estimates others have stated, he brings in approx. $1million from entry fees, and, @ 10% admin fee on average, Phenoms grosses $100,000/yr. Some of that goes to the web services hosting www.phenomsff.com , and some costs to MFL to run the leagues, maybe Phenoms pulls in $60,000/yr as a rough estimate. Since Phenoms is a one-man show, that means Mike is making $60K a year for basically a side-job. He puts in some serious time during the draft timeframe, but I cant imagine a whole lot after that. Settle some disputes as they come up. He can probably do that from his phone while working his real job.

He wasnt making a million and retiring, but it also isnt a bad gig.

He should have left well enough alone.

W666
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Maybe he was getting a bulk discount but MFL charges $70 so 70x765 = $53,550 on MFL fees alone.

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Why not just run your own leagues (or find a commish) on MFL? Other than the MFL fee, there's zero rake, all the money goes into the prize pool.
Click to expand...
this is kind of like asking people why they play poker at a poker room or online instead of just hosting a home game to avoid the rake. people sign up for things like this because it brings in players to compete against. you can't get that as easily if you are spending your time and effort recruiting players to join your leagues, and then you also have to hunt them down to make sure they pay their entry fees, etc.

there's some benefit to signing up for a service that brings people together to compete. up until now, it seems the payouts were always handled professionally and paid out on time. seems like the business ran smoothly for a decade so it was reasonable to expect some degree of stability here I think.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki said:
ConnSKINS26 said:
Why not just run your own leagues (or find a commish) on MFL? Other than the MFL fee, there's zero rake, all the money goes into the prize pool.
Click to expand...
this is kind of like asking people why they play poker at a poker room or online instead of just hosting a home game to avoid the rake. people sign up for things like this because it brings in players to compete against. you can't get that as easily if you are spending your time and effort recruiting players to join your leagues, and then you also have to hunt them down to make sure they pay their entry fees, etc.there's some benefit to signing up for a service that brings people together to compete. up until now, it seems the payouts were always handled professionally and paid out on time. seems like the business ran smoothly for a decade so it was reasonable to expect some degree of stability here I think.
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Oh no, I totally get why guys would opt for putting up with the rake to have someone else do all the busy work putting the leagues together, recruiting, collecting fees and settling disputes, managing payouts, etc.

I meant now, if you don't trust any of these sites after Phenoms/Antsports, etc. going down, there are still alternatives like doing it yourself. Hell, recruit the owners you like from your own Phenoms leagues and go from there, maybe even clone the whole league and just keep it going.

 
cstu said:
weinster666 said:
I am leaning toward this same assessment of his business plan, but I wouldnt say he had a failing business before hand. If we go with the estimates others have stated, he brings in approx. $1million from entry fees, and, @ 10% admin fee on average, Phenoms grosses $100,000/yr. Some of that goes to the web services hosting www.phenomsff.com , and some costs to MFL to run the leagues, maybe Phenoms pulls in $60,000/yr as a rough estimate. Since Phenoms is a one-man show, that means Mike is making $60K a year for basically a side-job. He puts in some serious time during the draft timeframe, but I cant imagine a whole lot after that. Settle some disputes as they come up. He can probably do that from his phone while working his real job.

He wasnt making a million and retiring, but it also isnt a bad gig.

He should have left well enough alone.

W666
Click to expand...
Maybe he was getting a bulk discount but MFL charges $70 so 70x765 = $53,550 on MFL fees alone.
Click to expand...
Its all just speculation at this point, but MFL offers $10 off for each league after the first one, so, at the bare max, the cost would be $60 x 765 = $45,900. I have no idea how many leagues MFL handles, but I would guess if someone is coming to them with 700+ leagues a year, there would be a significantly larger discount than just $10/league.

Like I said, just speculation without seeing the books.

W666

 
Can someone explain how it's possible to get refunds through PayPal? I'm not joking. I know its likely a long shot but would like to know the process if Mike doesn't come through.

 
17seconds said:
BTW, you guys know that it's very common for a software development project to take 3X the original budget right? I don't think the $630K is a made-up number. You need to know how to handle project costs spinning out of control. The $200K plan was probably 2 or 3 developers for less than a year and it was on Mike to manage it properly.
Click to expand...
From a long time web developer, there is a ton of truth in this post.

However, that doesn't excuse spending (or hiding) money that is not a company's capital on such a thing. That completely negligent, and he should be prosecuted for it.

 
Dapitbull said:
Can someone explain how it's possible to get refunds through PayPal? I'm not joking. I know its likely a long shot but would like to know the process if Mike doesn't come through.
Click to expand...
I was reading the Paypal by-laws last night..

you have 45 days to get an ACH or "charge-back"

But you have 180 days to dispute a charge… Now, Paypal specifies that intangible/digital services can't be disputed, not sure if Phenoms is considered intangible/digital, but if not we have a CHANCE

Basically what happens once you file a claim, they review it and if they think it meets the guidelines, they will contact mike and ask the two of you to work out a deal.. you generally have 20 days to do this..

If after 20 days, it is not solved, Paypal will make an executive decision, and if they find in your favor they will debit his account...

However, I believe the issue is, if he has liquidated all of his accounts, we might be stuck… At that point the only POSSIBLE scenario would be if your bank showed mercy and reversed the charges… Generally though you have to submit a claim within 60 days for consideration in that case..

Hope this helps!

 
Dapitbull said:
Can someone explain how it's possible to get refunds through PayPal? I'm not joking. I know its likely a long shot but would like to know the process if Mike doesn't come through.
Click to expand...
There's got to be a way of just filing a dispute. It's pretty simple with eBay. I suspect you're probably outside the window of being able to do so, though. It might be a 30 day thing.

 
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adb255 said:
All,

I was in a Phenoms high stakes league and made the playoffs; my money is now gone. I am taking action and need your help. I've listed contacts below where we can report Mike. I've already done it but the authorities made clear to me that for people to go after him WE NEED EVERYONE SCAMMED TO FILE A COMPLAINT. The more the better.

If you want evidence of how much a crook Mike is, check out a Google cache of his website. He had previously said that many would be kept securely in a Wells Fargo account and we were assured of payouts:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LdMybAuziHYJ:https://www.phenomsff.com/prizes/prizes.php&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The reason you need a Google cache to read it is that he changed his website today to remove the statement about safekeeping funds.

Here are links if you want to file complaints:

https://complaint.ic3.gov/ (Internet Crime Complaint Center)

http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/complaint-form (Utah Attorney General)

I also called the local police where Mike lives in Murray, Utah (801-264-2673).

I know it's annoying to fill these out and call, but it doesn't take that long and really will help.

Also, here are the details on Mike's business and his home address (for the complaint forms):

PHENOM ENTERPRISES, LLC

Entity Number: 7970115-0160

Company Type: LLC - Domestic

Address: 457 E 5600 S UNIT B Murray, UT 84107

State of Origin:

Registered Agent: MICHAEL D ZANGRILLI

Registered Agent Address:

457 E 5600 S UNIT B

Murray, UT 84107

I won't stop until Mike is in jail. He's a thief and ponzi schemer--join in if you want justice. Like I said, the only way to get this guy is for everyone to complain so the authorities know how many victims there are.

Also, I'm a lawyer and he has no right to decide to pay certain people and refund certain deposits at this point. The business is insolvent (bankrupt). A trustee/court needs to figure out who is owed what.
Click to expand...
I am so upset about this. I will do eveythun get you recommended. Might be futile but he can't get away with this. He just can't.

 
Polka King said:
ConnSKINS26 said:
weinster666 said:
So, looking forward. One of the main reasons I liked about Phenoms was that it had a lower rake than other sites I had seen.

Any suggestions for the next place to eventually rip me off?

W666
Click to expand...
Why not just run your own leagues (or find a commish) on MFL? Other than the MFL fee, there's zero rake, all the money goes into the prize pool.
Click to expand...
How about redrafts? I did two Phenoms leagues this year where I drafted within two hours of joining. Just decided to do them on a whim because I like to draft. There's a convenience factor that IMO, offsets the rake when looking at redrafts in particular.
Click to expand...
Easy. MFL runs their own "MFL 10s" leagues and some more expensive ones as well if you really want someone else to start and run the league. All summer long MFL tweets and posts on FB about current leagues filling up every day so there ya go if you want in a random league. Otherwise get a commish, charge the teams a whole $5 each and you got yourself a league on MFL with no strings attached.

If you want free redraft leagues there are plenty of sites like Fantasy Sharks that have free "Sharks" leagues that you can join and they are on MFL. Or just random join a Yahoo or ESPN league if you really want.

There is zero need for a "service" like Phenoms or Antsports in my humble opinion.

 
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weinster666 said:
cstu said:
weinster666 said:
I am leaning toward this same assessment of his business plan, but I wouldnt say he had a failing business before hand. If we go with the estimates others have stated, he brings in approx. $1million from entry fees, and, @ 10% admin fee on average, Phenoms grosses $100,000/yr. Some of that goes to the web services hosting www.phenomsff.com , and some costs to MFL to run the leagues, maybe Phenoms pulls in $60,000/yr as a rough estimate. Since Phenoms is a one-man show, that means Mike is making $60K a year for basically a side-job. He puts in some serious time during the draft timeframe, but I cant imagine a whole lot after that. Settle some disputes as they come up. He can probably do that from his phone while working his real job.

He wasnt making a million and retiring, but it also isnt a bad gig.

He should have left well enough alone.

W666
Click to expand...
Maybe he was getting a bulk discount but MFL charges $70 so 70x765 = $53,550 on MFL fees alone.
Click to expand...
Its all just speculation at this point, but MFL offers $10 off for each league after the first one, so, at the bare max, the cost would be $60 x 765 = $45,900. I have no idea how many leagues MFL handles, but I would guess if someone is coming to them with 700+ leagues a year, there would be a significantly larger discount than just $10/league.

Like I said, just speculation without seeing the books.

W666
Click to expand...
Yea, I'm not getting what Mike at Phenoms was complaining about with costs to MFL. I'm sure he got a serious discount. On top of that he'd have to pay for a live stats feed on his own which is tens of thousands of bucks. Seems like paying MFL hosting fees would be cheaper and you don't have to worry about it. Very bad business man this guy.

 
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TheWalk84 said:
Hey guys!

Posted this in it's own topic, but one of our brothers in Phenoms is a California attorney that has volunteered to spearhead getting a utah attorney and start the process.

If you have been involved with Phenoms in the past or especially this year just leave your name/email address and we will right this wrong!

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=722853
Click to expand...
Good luck guys.

Hope something positive comes out of this.

 
GL to all the people who most likely won't get their $$. I know how it feels as I (and many others I know locally) got burned by a company two years ago for 75K they owed me when they went belly up. I ended up recouping about 40K (long story) and the 35K hit will take me years to overcome.

 
ROCKET said:
GL to all the people who most likely won't get their $$. I know how it feels as I (and many others I know locally) got burned by a company two years ago for 75K they owed me when they went belly up. I ended up recouping about 40K (long story) and the 35K hit will take me years to overcome.
Click to expand...
Did you get 40K because you fought it or did they just give it to you?

Just curious, really not sure how to proceed here..

 
I'm winning all 3 of my Phenoms semi-final games and it makes me so bummed that it was all for nothing...

 
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mattlambertson said:
I'm winning all 3 of my Phenoms semi-final games and it makes me so bummed that it was all for nothing...
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear that. I would have split my 4 semifinals. I can't even remember my lineups I submitted last Wednesday. Usually I'm tweaking and juggling my lineup on Sunday morning. I didn't much care today to even watch.

 
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