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Cashed in on an easement - score! (1 Viewer)

WampusCat43

WampusCat43

Footballguy
The missus and I live just above the Ohio River. There's a dock/restaurant below us - small time place that folks use to gas up their boat/buy beer, etc. A guy just bought it and is looking to clean it up and make someplace decent out of it. He doesn't have city water there, however. He has to truck it in. He's asked us to allow him to run a 1" pipe down the back of our property. Here's the facts I know:

  • He's honest. I know people who've dealt with him in the past. He owns his own construction company
  • We're pretty much his only hope. Anything else is going to cost him twice as much (and it's a big project - the line has to exit our land, cross under a road and a railroad)
  • There will be a contract to ensure we never have any liability
  • We can't even see where he would be digging up. He says he'll be in and out of there in two days. The total length on our land is maybe 100'
  • The water company says we should be compensated for this
What's my call here? I don't want to be unreasonable, but I don't have the slightest idea what to ask? $500? $5k? $50k? Permanent beer tab?

I'll hang up and listen.

 
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I would look for some kind of permanent discount or something. It's 100 ft and he is going to do all the work. You have no real cost or loss of use when the job is done.

 
What would you figure his additional cost to be? Maybe start at some percent of that in value (35% or so??) I think 20% of his cost would be reasonable.

 
WampusCat43 said:
The missus and I live just above the Ohio River. There's a dock/restaurant below us - small time place that folks use to gas up their boat/buy beer, etc. A guy just bought it and is looking to clean it up and make someplace decent out of it. He doesn't have city water there, however. He has to truck it in. He's asked us to allow him to run a 1" pipe down the back of our property. Here's the facts I know:

  • He's honest. I know people who've dealt with him in the past. He owns his own construction company
  • We're pretty much his only hope. Anything else is going to cost him twice as much (and it's a big project - the line has to exit our land, cross under a road and a railroad)
  • There will be a contract to ensure we never have any liability
  • We can't even see where he would be digging up. He says he'll be in and out of there in two days. The total length on our land is maybe 100'
  • The water company says we should be compensated for this
What's my call here? I don't want to be unreasonable, but I don't have the slightest idea what to ask? $500? $5k? $50k? Permanent beer tab?

I'll hang up and listen.
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I like this... he can absorb that easily and as long as he takes care of you and your wife and you don't abuse it I think its fair

 
i like the beer tab....now for him, if he was smart, i would ask to purchase the easement just in case you do move and the new owner is a richard.

 
We had the utility compnay put in a fiber optic line along the side of our property line (via a contractor compnay). It ran from the street to the back corner of my lot where the junction box is. Normal city lot so maybe 100' from front to back. They gave me $1000 for it. This was maybe 5 years ago?

 
Smack Tripper said:
WampusCat43 said:
The missus and I live just above the Ohio River. There's a dock/restaurant below us - small time place that folks use to gas up their boat/buy beer, etc. A guy just bought it and is looking to clean it up and make someplace decent out of it. He doesn't have city water there, however. He has to truck it in. He's asked us to allow him to run a 1" pipe down the back of our property. Here's the facts I know:

  • He's honest. I know people who've dealt with him in the past. He owns his own construction company
  • We're pretty much his only hope. Anything else is going to cost him twice as much (and it's a big project - the line has to exit our land, cross under a road and a railroad)
  • There will be a contract to ensure we never have any liability
  • We can't even see where he would be digging up. He says he'll be in and out of there in two days. The total length on our land is maybe 100'
  • The water company says we should be compensated for this
What's my call here? I don't want to be unreasonable, but I don't have the slightest idea what to ask? $500? $5k? $50k? Permanent beer tab?

I'll hang up and listen.
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I like this... he can absorb that easily and as long as he takes care of you and your wife and you don't abuse it I think its fair
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It would be easy for him. We're not big beer drinkers (I'd bust him out if he had a bourbon license, though), and it's not easy to get there, even though it's only a few hundred yards away. We've been there maybe five times in ten years. It's basically a dump (at the moment).

 
snore said:
We had the utility compnay put in a fiber optic line along the side of our property line (via a contractor compnay). It ran from the street to the back corner of my lot where the junction box is. Normal city lot so maybe 100' from front to back. They gave me $1000 for it. This was maybe 5 years ago?
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Now we're talking. At least I have an idea of scale. Thanks!

 
You want to make sure you start high, so that when you meet in the middle, you still get a ####-ton of money. For example, you say one million dollars, he says $1000, you say $950,000, he says $5000, you say $925,000, he says $10,000, etc., until finally you settle in the neighborhood of a half million!!! :moneybag:

 
I would say $500 to $1,000 and he covers your legal and recording fees. Makes it worth your time for the hassle and time spent on it, as long as it doesn't negatively affect the property value or future use.

 
WampusCat43 said:
comfortably numb said:
How would the affect the value of your property if you were to sell it?
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Not sure why it would affect anything, but I'm not planning on selling anyway. I'm an old guy.
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Maybe it wouldn't affect anything you might have in mind but an easement restricts use of your property in ways which could have an impact. Might just prevent some access, or flood control or something else unforseeable. The question is just potential monetary value.

 
You mentioned that you have no interest in selling. What if he decides to sell? This is a permanent thing. You cannot undo it. You need to be compensated for damages to your property. Get an appraisal. Competent appraisers can determine the damages to your property. At the least, make him pay for the cost of the appraisal, the recording fees, and any other legal fees associated with this. Then, make him pay (lump sum) for damages to your property. I know you said he was a nice guy and all, but you have no idea what the next owner will be like, and after you are dead and gone, your heirs will have to deal with this easement and the problems it will create if/when they want to sell.

 
If he cleans up his eyesore of a business as is suggested, how much will that benefit the value of your property and your enjoyment of it?

If he has to fight to force an easement through your property, which maybe he can do, or if he has to procure a much longer and more costly route, will that reduce the money he has available to rehabilitate the eyesore?

Does he have the right to build higher than he currently is at, changing your views? Do you value those views? Might you want to swap an easement for a view easement restricting his building height?

Have you gone to your local Planning Department to view his rehab plans? Do they include signage which might obstruct your view, lights which may be obtrusive to you, or unscreened parking or dumpsters you might find offensive? There may be a trade off here you would want to consider.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
If he cleans up his eyesore of a business as is suggested, how much will that benefit the value of your property and your enjoyment of it?

If he has to fight to force an easement through your property, which maybe he can do, or if he has to procure a much longer and more costly route, will that reduce the money he has available to rehabilitate the eyesore?

Does he have the right to build higher than he currently is at, changing your views? Do you value those views? Might you want to swap an easement for a view easement restricting his building height?

Have you gone to your local Planning Department to view his rehab plans? Do they include signage which might obstruct your view, lights which may be obtrusive to you, or unscreened parking or dumpsters you might find offensive? There may be a trade off here you would want to consider.
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My property has only a miniscule view of the river, and that only during wintertime. His property is not in sight, so I'm not worried about the view. The sound does concern me. We have a nice screened-in porch that we enjoy during the summer, and are frequently blessed to inherit the music coming from a gay bar across the river (Madonna, again?).

We actually thought about getting him to clear out some of the trees down in the creek bed along the route so we would have a slightly better view.

To answer Glumpy, the water company tells me we can write up the contract so that any future owners of his property are liable for any damages as well.

 
WampusCat43 said:
The missus and I live just above the Ohio River. There's a dock/restaurant below us - small time place that folks use to gas up their boat/buy beer, etc. A guy just bought it and is looking to clean it up and make someplace decent out of it. He doesn't have city water there, however. He has to truck it in. He's asked us to allow him to run a 1" pipe down the back of our property. Here's the facts I know:

  • He's honest. I know people who've dealt with him in the past. He owns his own construction company
  • We're pretty much his only hope. Anything else is going to cost him twice as much (and it's a big project - the line has to exit our land, cross under a road and a railroad)
  • There will be a contract to ensure we never have any liability
  • We can't even see where he would be digging up. He says he'll be in and out of there in two days. The total length on our land is maybe 100'
  • The water company says we should be compensated for this
What's my call here? I don't want to be unreasonable, but I don't have the slightest idea what to ask? $500? $5k? $50k? Permanent beer tab?

I'll hang up and listen.
Click to expand...
1. Get a lawyer, you're going to need a contract. It may be 1 inch pipe but he might need 10 feet to do the work. Is it above ground or under ground? This is a servitude and it should be limited. Don't sell him 10 feet and then later he or whoever he sells it to can decide they want to build a parking lot on another property and then have a walkway over that 10 feet. Make sure it's just for this purpose.

2. If you let him lay the pipe you should be clear about who is responsible for repairs. If it breaks 10 years from now, who is fixing that, him or you? What if he sells or loses the property? Can he sell the easement without your permission? Can he go on your property any time to inspect the property or does he have to ask your permission? Etc.

3. He's paying you for future inconvenience too, if you pass your property via will or sale it will stick with the property. Someone who buys the property may not be thrilled with this pipe.

4. The price - remember the money you are saving him. Whatever you think it's worth you may want to bump it just a little because it's worth more to him. I know of some 6x50 servitudes in the city here that sell for $5,000. That's in the city, I'm guessing this guy is thinking you will ask like $1000, if so then make it $1500.

 
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I live on a State Hwy, but off the road about 800' in the middle of the woods. The County approached me about giving them an easement to clear some trees next to the highway

and dig a ditch for water runoff.. They had already done it right up to my property line (seems they had easements from everybody else years ago).

I was faced with the same type of thing.. how much should I expect to be compensated? Should I ask to be compensated at all? Should I just let them do it??

In the end, all I asked for was a load of dolemite for my driveway to fill some low spots... They refused.. So I refused...

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
WampusCat43 said:
The missus and I live just above the Ohio River. There's a dock/restaurant below us - small time place that folks use to gas up their boat/buy beer, etc. A guy just bought it and is looking to clean it up and make someplace decent out of it. He doesn't have city water there, however. He has to truck it in. He's asked us to allow him to run a 1" pipe down the back of our property. Here's the facts I know:

  • He's honest. I know people who've dealt with him in the past. He owns his own construction company
  • We're pretty much his only hope. Anything else is going to cost him twice as much (and it's a big project - the line has to exit our land, cross under a road and a railroad)
  • There will be a contract to ensure we never have any liability
  • We can't even see where he would be digging up. He says he'll be in and out of there in two days. The total length on our land is maybe 100'
  • The water company says we should be compensated for this
What's my call here? I don't want to be unreasonable, but I don't have the slightest idea what to ask? $500? $5k? $50k? Permanent beer tab?

I'll hang up and listen.
Click to expand...
1. Get a lawyer, you're going to need a contract. It may be 1 inch pipe but he might need 10 feet to do the work. Is it above ground or under ground? This is a servitude and it should be limited. Don't sell him 10 feet and then later he or whoever he sells it to can decide they want to build a parking lot on another property and then have a walkway over that 10 feet. Make sure it's just for this purpose. Lawyers will be involved. It's a 1" underground water pipe. He says he only needs about 6" of space. The hill is so steep there I don't need to worry about it being used for anything else. It's a dead-end private lane, and the pipe will run for several hundred feet further into someone else's property before he hits the road/railroad.

2. If you let him lay the pipe you should be clear about who is responsible for repairs. If it breaks 10 years from now, who is fixing that, him or you? What if he sells or loses the property? Can he sell the easement without your permission? Can he go on your property any time to inspect the property or does he have to ask your permission? Etc. This is our biggest concern - the liability. If we can't get this ironclad, the deal is off.

3. He's paying you for future inconvenience too, if you pass your property via will or sale it will stick with the property. Someone who buys the property may not be thrilled with this pipe. It's on the downslope. I can't even see where it's going from the house.

4. The price - remember the money you are saving him. Whatever you think it's worth you may want to bump it just a little because it's worth more to him. I know of some 6x50 servitudes in the city here that sell for $5,000. That's in the city, I'm guessing this guy is thinking you will ask like $1000, if so then make it $1500. We're in a nice suburb of Cincinnati, on the Kentucky side. Several of our FBGers such as Shuke and Homer J have actually been there. Not a densely populated area, but not farmland, either.

Really appreciate all the feedback, guys. That's why I've been part of this community for over 10 years.
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Am I the only one who thinks a one inch pipe to run city water seems a little small? Or am I just a dumb NYC guy?

Probably both of course.

 
RUSF18 said:
Am I the only one who thinks a one inch pipe to run city water seems a little small? Or am I just a dumb NYC guy?

Probably both of course.
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Here in the KC area, they run 3/4 or 1" line for your main water line into the house. The only factor may be the distance. Shouldn't be a problem. Unless commercial has different requirements.

 
ChiefD said:
RUSF18 said:
Am I the only one who thinks a one inch pipe to run city water seems a little small? Or am I just a dumb NYC guy?

Probably both of course.
Click to expand...
Here in the KC area, they run 3/4 or 1" line for your main water line into the house. The only factor may be the distance. Shouldn't be a problem. Unless commercial has different requirements.
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It's just two small buildings. A dock/restaurant with 12 slips and a house that's not used for anything but housing his company's servers (strange, I know).

 
playin4beer said:
I live on a State Hwy, but off the road about 800' in the middle of the woods. The County approached me about giving them an easement to clear some trees next to the highway

and dig a ditch for water runoff.. They had already done it right up to my property line (seems they had easements from everybody else years ago).

I was faced with the same type of thing.. how much should I expect to be compensated? Should I ask to be compensated at all? Should I just let them do it??

In the end, all I asked for was a load of dolemite for my driveway to fill some low spots... They refused.. So I refused...
Click to expand...
That seems pretty ####ty of them, so you think they were concerned about creating a precedent of giving anything for this type of easement? Just seems very unreasonable.

 
Binky The Doormat said:
playin4beer said:
I live on a State Hwy, but off the road about 800' in the middle of the woods. The County approached me about giving them an easement to clear some trees next to the highway

and dig a ditch for water runoff.. They had already done it right up to my property line (seems they had easements from everybody else years ago).

I was faced with the same type of thing.. how much should I expect to be compensated? Should I ask to be compensated at all? Should I just let them do it??

In the end, all I asked for was a load of dolemite for my driveway to fill some low spots... They refused.. So I refused...
Click to expand...
That seems pretty ####ty of them, so you think they were concerned about creating a precedent of giving anything for this type of easement? Just seems very unreasonable.
Click to expand...
That's what the guy told me... that if people saw a County truck dumping dolemite in my driveway, it would cause all kinds of issues...

The road commission is literally across the street from me.. I didn't think it was much of an issue to have a truck drive across the street, go back into the woods and dump it..

I wasn't asking for it to be spread or leveled.. just dumped into a pile.. they said "no".. so I said "no"... that was 5+ years ago.. The ditch still stops right at my property line.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the ditch was just an excuse to get easements for free.. The hwy is 4 lanes (5 with center lane) just down the road.. it narrows to 2 lanes a couple hundred yards

from my driveway. The traffic is getting worse and I suspect they will be widening the road to 4 lanes at some point. If that happens, they will absolutely need an easement from me and

can get it with eminent domain, but at that point, I would be compensated...

 
Few more things to consider:

1. Make sure the contractor gets underground utilities located before digging on your lot.

2. The water line trench may only be 6" wide (which seems unrealistic, but feasible if bury depth is minimal), but he will impact your property more than that with construction vehicles, trench spoils, etc. Make sure your contract includes rehabilitation of your property - you may even want to make sure you get a small security amount from him that you release back after you are happy with the final product.

3. Make sure the contractor has typical contractor liability insurance - in case he or one of his workers gets hurt on your property.

4. Make sure the attorney (you hire but they pay for) has experience with easement documents, preferably a land development attorney.

Regarding an estimated cost of the easement: The additional cost of running this new water line under a road and a railroad are probably not feasible for this new owner; it will be cheaper for him to just keep trucking in water. So the high-end of your negotiating price should be relevant to what he's paying to truck in the water (minus costs to construct the new water line, tap fees, etc.).

 
Do you have an attorney yet WC?

I know an attorney in the Cincy area that's solid / reliable and super experienced with these types of things if you need.

Of course, he has been doing consulting work for companies bringing in these easements for years (mainly Fiber) so he may not be "practicing" but I'm happy to reach out if you need and kick the tires if he wants to help you out. If anything, I can just try and get some unsolicited advice from him

 
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Buttonhook said:
Few more things to consider:

1. Make sure the contractor gets underground utilities located before digging on your lot.

2. The water line trench may only be 6" wide (which seems unrealistic, but feasible if bury depth is minimal), but he will impact your property more than that with construction vehicles, trench spoils, etc. Make sure your contract includes rehabilitation of your property - you may even want to make sure you get a small security amount from him that you release back after you are happy with the final product.

3. Make sure the contractor has typical contractor liability insurance - in case he or one of his workers gets hurt on your property.

4. Make sure the attorney (you hire but they pay for) has experience with easement documents, preferably a land development attorney.

Regarding an estimated cost of the easement: The additional cost of running this new water line under a road and a railroad are probably not feasible for this new owner; it will be cheaper for him to just keep trucking in water. So the high-end of your negotiating price should be relevant to what he's paying to truck in the water (minus costs to construct the new water line, tap fees, etc.).
Click to expand...
Also

Do all of this....

 
Also, my non-attorney opinion - but I have some experience in this arena....

You can't ask for the world, he'll find another option if you do. Most of the time, you can wring an easement for everything it's worth if they do it without your knowledge and you find out afterwards.

Attorney's Fees + 2 to 5 grand seems fair to me :shrug:

 
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He most definitely is planning on running the line under the road and railroad - he's already got the permits for that. We're the last holdup.

Great advice, Buttonhook. I'm going to make a list of all the concerns in this thread and meet with the guy Saturday.

Bender, that would be great if the guy is interested. Tell him it's for the Aqua Ramp marina near Fort Thomas.

 
WampusCat43 said:
He most definitely is planning on running the line under the road and railroad - he's already got the permits for that. We're the last holdup.

Great advice, Buttonhook. I'm going to make a list of all the concerns in this thread and meet with the guy Saturday.

Bender, that would be great if the guy is interested. Tell him it's for the Aqua Ramp marina near Fort Thomas.
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Cool - I'll reach out today and PM you.

 
Are you talking a permanent or temporary easement? You have to consider maintenance on the water line. What if there's a break? Also, the easement should be established on your deed. What if there's damage to your property while excavating? I would definitely get some legal advise and do this right or you could be liable for this water line in the future. At least understand what you're agreeing to.

 
Amused to Death said:
Are you talking a permanent or temporary easement? You have to consider maintenance on the water line. What if there's a break? Also, the easement should be established on your deed. What if there's damage to your property while excavating? I would definitely get some legal advise and do this right or you could be liable for this water line in the future. At least understand what you're agreeing to.
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It's permanent, and we're absolutely going to make sure he's liable for anything that happens.

I just set up a meeting with the guy Saturday, and I'll have a list of all the concerns in this thread in hand, along with some legal advice from a friend John Bender is hooking me up with.

 
WampusCat43 said:
Amused to Death said:
Are you talking a permanent or temporary easement? You have to consider maintenance on the water line. What if there's a break? Also, the easement should be established on your deed. What if there's damage to your property while excavating? I would definitely get some legal advise and do this right or you could be liable for this water line in the future. At least understand what you're agreeing to.
Click to expand...
It's permanent, and we're absolutely going to make sure he's liable for anything that happens.

I just set up a meeting with the guy Saturday, and I'll have a list of all the concerns in this thread in hand, along with some legal advice from a friend John Bender is hooking me up with.
Click to expand...
If its permanent (which allows for entry to your property to maintain the line) it will need to be surveyed and added to your deed, which I'm sure the lawyer will fully explain.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
If he cleans up his eyesore of a business as is suggested, how much will that benefit the value of your property and your enjoyment of it?

If he has to fight to force an easement through your property, which maybe he can do, or if he has to procure a much longer and more costly route, will that reduce the money he has available to rehabilitate the eyesore?

Does he have the right to build higher than he currently is at, changing your views? Do you value those views? Might you want to swap an easement for a view easement restricting his building height?

Have you gone to your local Planning Department to view his rehab plans? Do they include signage which might obstruct your view, lights which may be obtrusive to you, or unscreened parking or dumpsters you might find offensive? There may be a trade off here you would want to consider.
Click to expand...
Good info.

Land development consultant here, PM me if you have questions.

 
Agreed that this will need to be a permanent easement. While it sounds like the water line location is far away from your house, be aware that you (or any future owners) will not be allowed build any structures in this easement - which is really where the encumbrance (and potential financial restitution) on your property becomes pertinent.

Interesting that he has permits from the railroad - in Colorado it usually takes years to get a permit to dig under the railroad. Plus boring under the railroad is usually cost-prohibitive for a small water service. Is the railroad line still active?

 
Buttonhook said:
Agreed that this will need to be a permanent easement. While it sounds like the water line location is far away from your house, be aware that you (or any future owners) will not be allowed build any structures in this easement - which is really where the encumbrance (and potential financial restitution) on your property becomes pertinent.

Interesting that he has permits from the railroad - in Colorado it usually takes years to get a permit to dig under the railroad. Plus boring under the railroad is usually cost-prohibitive for a small water service. Is the railroad line still active?
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The railroad is definitely still active. He's been in business a long time and has gotten these permits before. The process is obscene but he's been working it for a while - he actually bought the marina last spring.

I can't imagine us ever building anything where the easement is going. The land is so steep you can barely walk it.

 
After six months, just signed the paperwork and deposited the check to the tune of $3,000. Big shout-out to John Bender for hooking me up with a lawyer friend who guided me through the process.

 
WampusCat43 said:
After six months, just signed the paperwork and deposited the check to the tune of $3,000. Big shout-out to John Bender for hooking me up with a lawyer friend who guided me through the process.
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Wow....great to hear man. I told you he knew his stuff....sounds like he took care of you. He's a great guy and great attorney when it comes to these things so glad he treated you well.

 
John Bender said:
WampusCat43 said:
After six months, just signed the paperwork and deposited the check to the tune of $3,000. Big shout-out to John Bender for hooking me up with a lawyer friend who guided me through the process.
Click to expand...
Wow....great to hear man. I told you he knew his stuff....sounds like he took care of you. He's a great guy and great attorney when it comes to these things so glad he treated you well.
Click to expand...
The guy paid the legal fees as well. I'm sending the check now. Todd must have replied to my questions a half-dozen times. Good man.

 
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