Soooo we’ve seen 8/6 he had to return. We’ve seen he has to return for 6 games. We’ve seen he has to return for one game. That article says 8 games. Wtf is it?
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RB Ezekiel Elliott, NE (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
His very article saying 8 games is supported by anther article referencing the Gallaway ruling. And in there it says he might have to play 8...or he may only have to play 1! How is this so unclear???florio's a lawyer, so im going to take his 8 games take as gospel
kittenmittens
Footballguy
I don't see anything that supports the 1 game thing. I'm not saying I'm an expert on this, but nothing I have seen says he can just play 1 game and progress towards free agency.
I think it's 8 games. And that is if Dallas doesn't send a 5 day letter. He's screwed if they send him the 5 day letter because then he either has to report in 5 days or he is done for the season and will be right back in the same spot next season.
Jerry has the 5 day letter in his back pocket and is probably going to wait until later to send it, since he doesn't want to take the chance of not having Zeke at all or burning bridges. Zekes only counter to that 5 day letter is withholding services, but time is on Jerry's side.
Jerry is a 76 year old billionaire in good health, chances are he lives to see the end of the career of the next Dallas feature back after Elliott in response to comments earlier about how Jerry has no time to lose.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He's not trying to progress towards free-agency. He has a fifth year on his contract. He just needs for the contract not to toll - and some think playing one game accomplishes that. You need to accrue 4 seasons to becomes a UFA and he can accomplish that next season by playing in 6 games.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
The more you guys post about how many games Zeke needs to play the more I get confused.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Isn't he though? Are they not the same thing? If the contract tolls, he doesn't progress to the 5th year of his deal, he's still in the 4th year.
Why does anyone think he can prevent the contract tolling from 1 game? Is there a source on that?
Dizzy
Footballguy
I agreed with this.
No way is he back for week 1.
After that it's week-to-week... every "W" tilts things more in Jerry's favor. Only a streak of losses will bring the public pressure to make Zeke the highest paid RB.
Zeke should take the latest offer and play football. He's not getting "Todd Gurley money"... that was a mistake and I'm sure even the Rams know this behind closed doors.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It's a debatable which is why I said "some think playing one game accomplishes that".
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
It's only viewed as a mistake in retrospect due to his knee injury. He was incredible and worth every penny if his knee would have held up.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Yes. This is the point with RBs... average career span of 2.8 years... is that a business you would invest in?
Bill Belichick must laugh his ### off at this stuff.
A lot of "he has out-performed his contract" crap in here and in the media... the only one who should be saying that is Zeke's agent. You don't get "rewarded" for what you've done in a human commodity business like football, you get paid for what you can deliver in the future.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
That's an average of all RB's. The elite ones average far more than 2.8 seasons.
Zeke just turned 24. He will have at least 4 more seasons of elite production barring major injury. He didn't have any major knee injuries coming into the league.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
But he has demonstrated a less than stellar state of mental health. Been suspended, been accused of things he was not ultimately suspended for, and in general shown a total lack of maturity and responsibility off the field. Gurley never did any of that. Zeke was offered a very lucrative contract and my bet is if that same offer happened to be the exact same number but was more than what Gurley had signed for, he would have taken it. This is a penis measuring exercise for him. More immaturity and bad judgement.
This is not about getting what he is worth. Its about getting more than Gurley got. Its pre-school mentality.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
Joe Thomas's take makes sense to me. He also addresses the off the field issues.
"Throughout the course of NFL history, if you are the best player at your position (or clearly one of the best) when you re-sign a second contract with the team that drafted you, you usually beat the highest paid current contract at your position by 15 to 20%."
"There is a valid argument to be made, that because of Zeke’s suspension and off the field issues, his value should be reduced, so even if you reduce the value a little bit, he should still beat the Gurley contract by 5%"
"Also, when you have a generational talent with some off the field troubles, typically you still pay them the higher rate, you just put a different structure into the contract where if there are additional slip ups, you can take back money or even get out from under the contract."
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Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Agreed but that’s what EVERY star player does when they’re getting a new contract. That’s the status quo in the NFL.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Fine...but doesnt he still have 2 years left on his deal? I havent been totally keeping up so please excuse me if that is inaccurate, but its at least 1 year left. So he wants to extend his deal 1-2 years early. Does the same "rule" apply in those situations?
Seems to me like he should be really happy to get what they've offered him given the headache he has been to the team and to the league. It also seems like the team is holding the cards here. They can hold him to the 1-2 years left on the deal, then franchise him for 2 more. Sign the firggin deal and play football, and let your team move on and try to win a super bowl. Generations of Elliots will be fine with the ludicrous amount of money he would make on the deal that they offered him.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Unless he signs before my draft on Sunday I won't risk a first or second round pick on him. It isn't quite the same situation as LeVeon Bell but I really don't want to deal with it
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
They picked up his 5th year option, so he has 2 years left on his deal. I don't know how the rule applies in this situation. Gurley got a new deal after year 3, exactly what Zeke's trying to do.
I don't think we should expect players to take less than they are "worth". The Gurley deal set the market. We can disagree about whether the Rams overpaid him, but it is what it is.
Milkman
Footballguy
He's also an idiot so there's that......florio's a lawyer, so im going to take his 8 games take as gospel
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
What a player is worth should not be determined by what another player was paid. Each player is unique. Gurley was a model citizen and "face of the franchise" type of player that an organization can be proud of. Zeke...no. Actions have consequences. If they dont, then whats to stop these guys from acting like morons aside from their own moral compass, which is clearly in question in many cases?
I cannot get behind the notion that he has to be the highest paid RB, just because its his turn (in his mind) to sign a new deal - even though he is under contract for 2 more years. I am all for players getting theirs, but he was offered an amazing contract and declined it just because another guy was getting more. I stand behind the notion that its a pre-school mentality. If its the reality, then I am all for that reality changing and would applaud any organization that led that charge.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
The reality isn't changing. It's been going on like this for decades.
When a truly elite player signs a new deal they almost always become the "top" paid at their position. Until the next elite player signs, then he becomes the top paid at the position.
Also the salary cap goes up. So there is more pie to dish out each year. It makes sense why every year we get a new top paid player at his position.
"NFL salary cap will increase to up to $191 million per team. NEW YORK (AP) — The NFL salary cap will increase by roughly 6 percent in 2019 to a threshold of up to $191.1 million per team, the league announced Tuesday. The 2018 cap is $177.2 million."
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ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Well Bell didnt get more than Gurley, and Zeke hasnt yet either - so there is hope that sanity is starting to prevail.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
Bell wasn't considered a top 3 RB in his prime going into this season. He's 27.
On the open market Zeke would 99.9% get some team to make him the highest paid RB in the NFL.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Maybe so, but he has 2 years until he hits the open market. Then he will be 26. And can then be franchised for 2 more years. He should sign the very generous deal he was offered.
brewer
Footballguy
He has 2 years left on his current deal. If the rumors of him being offered anywhere near what Gurley got are true, he should jump on it and not look back.
His teammates are supportive now, but start missing some games over a small amount of money due to your ego and that support will wane(especially because in a salary cap league, that extra money comes out of a future teammate's salary).
His teammates are supportive now, but start missing some games over a small amount of money due to your ego and that support will wane(especially because in a salary cap league, that extra money comes out of a future teammate's salary).
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kittenmittens
Footballguy
Sure I wasn't trying to argue, rather trying to understand why some think that. I'm not sure there is much to debate without some sort of evidence beyond some people think that.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I’m about over this whole thing
Lets go kick the Giants’ ### without him
Lets go kick the Giants’ ### without him
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
We'll see what happens. DAL feels they are a SB contender this season. Without Zeke i highly doubt they feel the same way.
Zeke's leverage is that he knows this.
Every game in the NFL is huge for playoffs and seeding. Losing a game or two because they don't have Zeke on the field is a risk DAL won't take in the end.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
I am not a Cowboys fan and as a fantasy player I have zero invested in this backfield, but I sincerely hope they start the season 3-0 with Tony Pollard playing great. I would hate to see a person rewarded for bad behavior.
Don Hutson
Footballguy
Galloway's situation happened under a different CBA so it may not apply. And it involved the opinion of an arbiter, so that isn't concrete. Maybe nobody knows the answer to when exactly he needs to report for sure. Or maybe a few agents and general managers know but they don't divulge the information because their knowledge makes them valuable. Spreading that knowledge makes that knowledge less valuable. The CBA is sometimes vague and sometimes contradictory and needs to be interpreted. And sometimes it needs to be argued in front of an arbiter or even a judge for clarification. We learned last year with Le'Veon's situation that reporters don't know diddly-squat about CBA rules. Le'Veon's agent likely didn't know that he could sit out the entire year and still get credit toward the bigger franchise tag until the Steelers intentionally released that information.
Here is an article about Zeke and Melvin's situations written by an agent. He seems to have a firmer grasp of the issues than a reporter:
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-the-ramifications-of-melvin-gordon-and-ezekiel-elliott-holding-out-to-get-new-deals-from-their-teams/
Here is a quote from the article:
The chances of either player, particularly Gordon, sitting out the 2019 season are remote. It would be counterproductive contractually. The Chargers would likely have Gordon's contract tolled for a full year under the extension provisions in paragraph 16 of the standard NFL player contract thanks to an arbitration decision relating to Joey Galloway's 101-day holdout in 1999. This would mean Gordon's deal wouldn't expire until after the 2020 season instead of the 2019 season.
Seattle lost a grievance attempting to get Galloway's contact extended for an additional year under paragraph 16 because he held out for the first nine weeks of the 1999 season. The arbitrator didn't give a clear standard for how many missed weeks are necessary to trigger tolling.
Here is an article about Zeke and Melvin's situations written by an agent. He seems to have a firmer grasp of the issues than a reporter:
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-the-ramifications-of-melvin-gordon-and-ezekiel-elliott-holding-out-to-get-new-deals-from-their-teams/
Here is a quote from the article:
The chances of either player, particularly Gordon, sitting out the 2019 season are remote. It would be counterproductive contractually. The Chargers would likely have Gordon's contract tolled for a full year under the extension provisions in paragraph 16 of the standard NFL player contract thanks to an arbitration decision relating to Joey Galloway's 101-day holdout in 1999. This would mean Gordon's deal wouldn't expire until after the 2020 season instead of the 2019 season.
Seattle lost a grievance attempting to get Galloway's contact extended for an additional year under paragraph 16 because he held out for the first nine weeks of the 1999 season. The arbitrator didn't give a clear standard for how many missed weeks are necessary to trigger tolling.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Well, he has a history of bad behavior, but in addition to that, acting like a 7 year old who will only do his job if he gets paid more than Todd Gurley. He is under contract. They offered him a ridiculously rich deal, and he turned it down simply because it was not as ludicrous as someone else's deal. Thats bad behavior as far as I am concerned - and it is just icing on top of his all around bad behavior cake.
The bolded I agree with. The rest is nonsense. He is indeed under contract. THE ONLY contract that he could’ve signed at the time and one that three years in isn’t paying him his worth. Holding out for a new contract is his only option if he’s not willing to risk his health and well being for the salary he’s set to he paid. That’s not “bad behavior.”
Thats called common sense.I'm expecting Gordon back by week 10 for sure. Whether he comes back earlier is anyone's guess. Seems to be trending that he won't but who knows.
I hope they start 3-0 with Pollard as well, not just because I drafted Pollard, but I want to really put this RB's don't really matter theory to the test. I mean, there is a lot of evidence that it is the least valuable position in all of football(short of K/P) but maybe Elliott is good enough to be a difference maker. They didn't miss Zeke much in 2017, the Steelers didn't miss Bell last year, and the Rams got to the Super Bowl with very little from Gurley.
Zeke and Gordon are potentially 2 very interesting test cases just from a NFL value theory perspective. If Dallas and Los Angeles don't miss a beat without them, I think we could see a ripple effect, where the entire landscape changes at the position, where guys like Johnson and Gurley could become cap cuts, simply because the position is deemed unimportant.
If you look at the best RB's of all time, most of them never really won anything. Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, Gale Sayers, O.J. Simpson, Adrian Peterson, Earl Campbell, LaDainian Tomlinson, and many other great RB's, never made it to a Super Bowl. With the exception of Tomlinson, all of them played with mostly below average QB's.
I am very much a believer that RB's are typically a product of their surroundings, and only a truly elite RB can transcend that, and even then, it usually has only a small effect on wins/losses. I don't think Melvin Gordon is on that level. Elliott maybe could be, but even then he might only be the difference between 10-6 and 9-7.
Personally, I wouldn't cave to either guy if I were in charge of those front offices. It sucks that RB's have a short shelf life, and much of it is spent on a rookie deal, but that's not the organization's problem. Both the Cowboys and Chargers have multiple more important players to sign, Dallas already re-signed one in Jaylon Smith.
Or maybe Elliott and Gordon sign, and its business as usual. I'm torn. I want to see the best players play, but I'm also curious about how each team fares without these guys.
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ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
If he isnt willing to risk his health for $14M, but is for $14.3M just because of Todd Gurley, its bad behavior. Its not some righteous stand for what is right and what is wrong. There is no high horse to stand on here. No moral ground. Its pre-school logic. Please dont try to feed me this nonsense about this being common sense.The bolded I agree with. The rest is nonsense. He is indeed under contract. THE ONLY contract that he could’ve signed at the time and one that three years in isn’t paying him his worth. Holding out for a new contract is his only option if he’s not willing to risk his health and well being for the salary he’s set to he paid. That’s not “bad behavior.”
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
He should try to maximize his worth. it's not bad behavior at all. Fans think these players owe them something. The NFL is a business just like any other. Would you take less money than you think you're worth to make your company happy? If so you're a sucker.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Well, he is not holding the cards to accomplish that. The team is. They can effectively end his career. 2 years under contract, and 2 years on the tag. They made him a phenomenal offer. 2nd best contract in NFL history for a RB, despite all of his infractions on society and the fact that he is under contract - and he decided to go to Cabo and let Marshall Faulk bash his team and teammates on his behalf. He was offered arguably more than he is worth and given his past he should have been thrilled to have been given that. But it wasnt enough because it wasnt more than Todd got. Ridiculous. I just hope it doesnt work. Definitely on the team's side on this one.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Jerry is weilding the 5 day letter too. Even if Elliott is going for arguing the 1 game thing in arbitration, Jerry could just end that with 7 games remaining - once it's clear he's going past the 8 game precedent - with a 5 day letter.
Jerry can really end the holdout at any time with the 5 day letter the way I understand it, he's just risking Zeke calling his bluff and not reporting. He's wise not to take a hard line, but if things got ugly he could do it.
Jerry can really end the holdout at any time with the 5 day letter the way I understand it, he's just risking Zeke calling his bluff and not reporting. He's wise not to take a hard line, but if things got ugly he could do it.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Just drafted Zeke at the 1.05 tonight. It was the Draft.com bestball tournament with a grand prize of $1MM. It was my 4th draft in the same tournament but only one with Zeke. I think he signs pretty soon. Maybe not for week 1 but pretty soon into the season.
btemp
Footballguy
You literally know none of this. How do you know its a phenomenal offer? You at a whiskey bar with Jerry Jones?
Fan irrationality can be comical.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
We really have no idea what he was really offered we just know what the Jones’ wanted leaked to the press.
habsfan
Footballguy
This is primarily about more players testing the "structural integrity" of the CBA. Last year we had a 150+ page thread on Bell discussing what would or wouldn't happen and lots of media types parroting information relating to the business side of football. Then when the dust finally settled, someone actually figured out that being tagged and signing a tag were two different things. All this to say, I am a healthy amount of skeptical of anyone (fan, fantasy or media) who says this will happen or that won't happen and that's effectively all we're doing right now.
The only prediction I'll make is that if Zeke misses two games, his player thread has a really good shot at surpassing Bell's.
The only prediction I'll make is that if Zeke misses two games, his player thread has a really good shot at surpassing Bell's.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I hope it works out for you but I am not touching him at 1.09 or 2.04. He won't make it back to me in the 3rd but if he does then I'll take him there. I don't think Zeke will have a long holdout but after seeing the Bell fiasco last year I just don't want any part of it. Good luck...
rockaction
Footballguy
The weird thing about the "structural integrity" of the CBA is that the nature of collective bargaining alone renders the structure for newcomers and those in certain positions unfair in other industries, too. That's long been the lament about collective bargaining and bargaining away the rights of those who aren't employed yet by a particular company/entity. It's one of those larger, real-world compromises that we made as a society so that production of essential goods didn't stop filtering into the mainstream of life. It's why people view sports unions differently than other unions. For one, there's no product without the entertainment value of it. Secondly, the industry itself is inessential to life, really. So you have a system that applies in certain instances trying to be painted with a broad sort of Marxian (not in the loaded sense of the term, but that of wage/capital distinctions) brush being made regarding an industry and format. Yet the main point behind compelled, good-faith, collective bargaining is to keep the products flowing to the marketplace, not to serve as a means to promote all interests regarding an entertainment. It's not the right model, somehow.
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Dizzy
Footballguy
What? EVERYBODY thinks they're worth more than they're getting paid. EVERYBODY, whether they say it out loud or under their breath.
