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RB Ezekiel Elliott, DAL


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19 minutes ago, ourmanflint said:

Of course it doesn't. But Zeke has 4 federal judge opinions (Mazzant twice, Graves and Crotty) that side with him and state that fundamental fairness applies to the NFL arbitration process. That matters and it weighs on future judges who hear the case. 

 

Not true. The 4 opinions above do matter as they serve as confirmation and guidance. CA2 doesn't have to agree, but they will not ignore them. But CA2 never foreclosed on fundamental fairness as applicable to NFL arbitration in their ruling. They merely said fundamental fairness doesn't apply to collateral witnesses such as Pash.

This is clearly shown in the fact that Crotty read the CA2 ruling and then ruled for Zeke. In his opinion, he stated the NFL was wrong for assuming that CA2 ruled that fundamental fairness didn't apply.

If the case gets to the 2nd, those 4 judges opinions, IMO, won't matter or carry nearly as much weight as the 2nd's decision in Brady, just last year.

Again, you are misconstruing the 2nd's ruling in Brady.  They didn't "merely say fundamental fairness doesn't apply to collateral witnesses." They said:

Quote

Nor  is  it  our  role  to  second‐guess  the  arbitrator’s procedural  rulings.    Our  obligation  is  limited  to  determining  whether  the  arbitration  proceedings  and  award  met  the  minimum legal standards established by the Labor Management Relations Act, 29  U.S.C.  §  141  et  seq.  (the  “LMRA”).    We  must  simply  ensure  that the  arbitrator  was  “even  arguably  construing  or  applying  the contract  and  acting  within  the  scope  of  his  authority”  and  did  not “ignore  the  plain  language  of  the  contract.”    United  Paperworks  Int’l Union  v.  Misco,  Inc.,  484  U.S.  29,  38  (1987).    These  standards  do  not require  perfection  in  arbitration  awards.    Rather,  they  dictate  that even  if  an  arbitrator  makes  mistakes  of  fact  or  law,  we  may  not disturb  an  award  so  long  as  he  acted  within  the  bounds  of  his bargained‐for authority.

bolded emphasis is mine, but this is not "merely saying fundamental fairness doesn't apply to collateral witnesses."  You've been stating that over & over, and ignoring the fact that this is not all that decision said.

The 2nd could (again, if they get this case) decide that they were wrong in Brady & rule differently, but I'd be more willing to bet that they decide that the district judges mis-applied/mis-interpreted their ruling & will affirm it.

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.  Won't be the first time, won't be the last.  I think we've both stated our piece, and I'm not sure that re-stating the same things over and over again is necessary.

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27 minutes ago, ourmanflint said:

Couldn't agree more. Crotty is a well respected judge. She won't reverse him. Zeke is going to play all year.

Not sure it matters if he is well-respected or not, it's almost a matter of "professional courtesy" from the way I understand it.  Giving a permanent TRO won't cause any damage, while if she were to come in and refuse to make the order "permanent,"  it would be akin to publicly saying "Crotty was wrong."  I don't think that will happen.

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5 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

If the case gets to the 2nd, those 4 judges opinions, IMO, won't matter or carry nearly as much weight as the 2nd's decision in Brady, just last year.

Again, you are misconstruing the 2nd's ruling in Brady.  They didn't "merely say fundamental fairness doesn't apply to collateral witnesses." They said:

bolded emphasis is mine, but this is not "merely saying fundamental fairness doesn't apply to collateral witnesses."  You've been stating that over & over, and ignoring the fact that this is not all that decision said.

The 2nd could (again, if they get this case) decide that they were wrong in Brady & rule differently, but I'd be more willing to bet that they decide that the district judges mis-applied/mis-interpreted their ruling & will affirm it.

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.  Won't be the first time, won't be the last.  I think we've both stated our piece, and I'm not sure that re-stating the same things over and over again is necessary.

I don't remember the 2 judges names from CA2 who wrote that but if Zeke doesn't draw both of those in the inevitable appeal, he will win. Luck of the draw maybe. 

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26 minutes ago, ourmanflint said:

Couldn't agree more. Crotty is a well respected judge. She won't reverse him. Zeke is going to play all year.

If I'm understanding all this, Failla will be ruling on a preliminary injunction, not a TRO.  And the standards for granting a PI are higher than those around a TRO.

So Failla ruling for the NFL wouldn't constitute reversing Crotty, just applying the higher burden of proof required for granting a PI.  In fact ruling against the NFL would constitute reversing the Brady judges, who denied a PI request over the "fundamental fairness" issue.  Presumably they're well respected also.

 

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15 minutes ago, ourmanflint said:

I don't remember the 2 judges names from CA2 who wrote that but if Zeke doesn't draw both of those in the inevitable appeal, he will win. Luck of the draw maybe. 

Humor me and describe what would be a "win" for Elliott. 

As I mentioned earlier, IMO, the best outcome for Elliott is that the court finds his arbitration hearing was fundamentally unfair. In such a scenario, I believe the court would compel the NFL to conduct another arbitration hearing that complied with whatever terms and conditions the court saw fit. I do not believe that the court can toss the suspension out all together. By that I mean, Elliott would again have his suspension put on hold pending the outcome of another arbitration hearing.

In a second arbitration hearing, if the league confirmed to the demands of the court and granted full access to all requests, witnesses, etc., the league could again allocate a 6 game suspension.If the NFL abides to the terms of the CBA and determines Zeke did not conform to the domestic violence rules, I don't see what action the court could take at that point and Elliott would ultimately have to serve his suspension.

So again . . . what would be considered a "win" from the court? I think all Elliott is doing is putting off the inevitable 6 game suspension until some point in the future.

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2 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Humor me and describe what would be a "win" for Elliott. 

As I mentioned earlier, IMO, the best outcome for Elliott is that the court finds his arbitration hearing was fundamentally unfair. In such a scenario, I believe the court would compel the NFL to conduct another arbitration hearing that complied with whatever terms and conditions the court saw fit. I do not believe that the court can toss the suspension out all together. By that I mean, Elliott would again have his suspension put on hold pending the outcome of another arbitration hearing.

In a second arbitration hearing, if the league confirmed to the demands of the court and granted full access to all requests, witnesses, etc., the league could again allocate a 6 game suspension.If the NFL abides to the terms of the CBA and determines Zeke did not conform to the domestic violence rules, I don't see what action the court could take at that point and Elliott would ultimately have to serve his suspension.

So again . . . what would be considered a "win" from the court? I think all Elliott is doing is putting off the inevitable 6 game suspension until some point in the future.

Win = PI will stand for this year

This serves many purposes. He gets paid. He plays. Goodell learns there are some bounds to his power. It serves as precedence for future arbitration. He probably gets another shot at arbitration. Will that make any difference in his suspension? I don't know.

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31 minutes ago, ourmanflint said:

Win = PI will stand for this year

This serves many purposes. He gets paid. He plays. Goodell learns there are some bounds to his power. It serves as precedence for future arbitration. He probably gets another shot at arbitration. Will that make any difference in his suspension? I don't know.

That’s not really a win, though.  It’s a win for his FF owners who got him at a discount & had use of his services all year, sure, but not for Zeke.  If he serves the suspension next year, he gets paid less (next year he’ll make more per game), he doesn’t get to play next year, Goodell’s power isn’t limited at all, and no precedent is set, b/c Brady has already done what a PI for the rest of the year will do for Zeke-postpones an NFL suspension for a year.  Bu all the criteria you wrote about, if he “ONLY” gets a PI for the rest of this year, that’s not a win.

Anarchy is right, IF the courts say the process was unfair & they order it redone; the NFL will most likely follow those directives & Goodell will just suspend him again.  A PI for the rest of this year isn’t a win; Zeke needs to have the court throw the whole issue out (don’t know if they will do that) OR the NFL has to cave & reduce the suspension to a point where Zeke will take it.  Those are the only way Zeke wins here.

Edited by Bayhawks
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5 hours ago, Moonshine said:

As an owner, what level of player would it take to get him from you? I only understand his perceived value from a potential buyer position, and don't own any shares of him myself, so it's interesting to get an owner's perspective.

I'd probably trade him for an RB1 or WR1 toward the bottom of the tier or an RB2/WR2 with upside. I saw AJ Green mentioned earlier, I'd almost certainly jump on that.

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No idea if these "sources" are good but a new wrinkle to the story:

Sources: Ezekiel Elliott's team, NFL have discussed the possibility of a settlement

Sources say the two sides have discussed the possibility of a settlement. This should come as no surprise. There has been dialogue behind the scenes, one source asserts, after each court ruling along the way.

LINK

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6 hours ago, The General said:

No idea if these "sources" are good but a new wrinkle to the story:

Sources: Ezekiel Elliott's team, NFL have discussed the possibility of a settlement

Sources say the two sides have discussed the possibility of a settlement. This should come as no surprise. There has been dialogue behind the scenes, one source asserts, after each court ruling along the way.

LINK

If I'm Zeke, I don't take anything over 2 games.  And even then, it would have to be a change in the rationale for the suspension.  Something about personal conduct policy, more related to a pattern of behavior detrimental to league image, etc.   Nothing about abusing Thompson.

Just my two cents.  No clue if Goodell's ego could handle that.

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6 hours ago, The General said:

No idea if these "sources" are good but a new wrinkle to the story:

Sources: Ezekiel Elliott's team, NFL have discussed the possibility of a settlement

Sources say the two sides have discussed the possibility of a settlement. This should come as no surprise. There has been dialogue behind the scenes, one source asserts, after each court ruling along the way.

LINK

Dallas Morning News. Makes sense for both parties.

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17 hours ago, Evilgrin 72 said:

I own Elliott (and Morris and McFadden) in both of my $$$ leagues and haven't had so much as a soft inquiry.  I'm waiting and would definitely trade him for the right offer, but not even a sniff-around.

I would seriously consider dropping one or both of the backups, I own Zeke in a 12 teamer 0.5 ppr and have found much better use for those 2 bench spots and feel I would never play them anyway with 3 better options on my team already.

Every situation is different but maybe look at the next stretch for byes and try and get a jump on some guys.

 

 

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8 hours ago, The General said:

No idea if these "sources" are good but a new wrinkle to the story:

Sources: Ezekiel Elliott's team, NFL have discussed the possibility of a settlement

Sources say the two sides have discussed the possibility of a settlement. This should come as no surprise. There has been dialogue behind the scenes, one source asserts, after each court ruling along the way.

LINK

I'm surprised the league is willing to consider a settlement, as their attorney made it clear that they didn't want future players who are suspended to take legal action. It would be nice for this damn thing to be over with. I still to this day have no idea what Zeke actually did. In my opinion, that's a huge red flag about this whole suspension. Where are the damn details?

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1 hour ago, kyoun1e said:

Interesting.

If it's cut in half I think Dallas would go for it. 

Not sure about Zeke though.

Zeke should go for it under the right conditions - he could easily have been suspended for other conduct detrimental to the league.   Nobody would have been shocked if they gave him 1-2 games for the "pull-up-the-shirt" incident, along with his other indiscretions.  Sort of a "hey, wake up dude. Stop."

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Look, I wasn't there, but I really think this guy is completely innocent.  Looking at these reports (https://deadspin.com/here-are-the-ezekiel-elliott-police-reports-and-911-cal-1784138626 ), coupled with the additional testimony from Witness 1 that Victim 1 was trying to get revenge on him and that she was asked to lie to the police about it (and with the actual text messages showing this), I just don't see him as guilty.  And as a Redskins fan, I have every reason to want Zeke to get suspended, but I really do not think he should at all.  If anything the NFL owes him a huge apology.

 

 

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2 hours ago, (HULK) said:

Look, I wasn't there, but I really think this guy is completely innocent.  Looking at these reports (https://deadspin.com/here-are-the-ezekiel-elliott-police-reports-and-911-cal-1784138626 ), coupled with the additional testimony from Witness 1 that Victim 1 was trying to get revenge on him and that she was asked to lie to the police about it (and with the actual text messages showing this), I just don't see him as guilty.  And as a Redskins fan, I have every reason to want Zeke to get suspended, but I really do not think he should at all.  If anything the NFL owes him a huge apology.

 

 

Zeke destroyed data and text messages on his old phones after getting a new phone.  That makes him guilty, according to the logic used by the Salty Haters when Brady destroyed his old phone after getting a new phone.

"During June’s hearing, Friel articulated eight factors the league viewed as a lack of cooperation on Elliott’s part, starting with the fact that Elliott said he bought two new cell phones last fall, after the new iPhone came out. Elliott said he didn’t know he had to keep the data (including text messages) that had been stored on his old phones."

https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-seems-to-have-punished-ezekiel-elliott-for-not-1798704936

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3 hours ago, (HULK) said:

Look, I wasn't there, but I really think this guy is completely innocent.  Looking at these reports (https://deadspin.com/here-are-the-ezekiel-elliott-police-reports-and-911-cal-1784138626 ), coupled with the additional testimony from Witness 1 that Victim 1 was trying to get revenge on him and that she was asked to lie to the police about it (and with the actual text messages showing this), I just don't see him as guilty.  And as a Redskins fan, I have every reason to want Zeke to get suspended, but I really do not think he should at all.  If anything the NFL owes him a huge apology.

 

 

It doesn't matter if he is innocent or not. All that matters is for Goodell to believe him to be guilty. Goodell has the power to find him guilty with even he said/she said testimony. There doesn't have to be any real evidence. Is that fair? No, but the players gave him that power.

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1 hour ago, espnespn said:

Zeke destroyed data and text messages on his old phones after getting a new phone.  That makes him guilty, according to the logic used by the Salty Haters when Brady destroyed his old phone after getting a new phone.

"During June’s hearing, Friel articulated eight factors the league viewed as a lack of cooperation on Elliott’s part, starting with the fact that Elliott said he bought two new cell phones last fall, after the new iPhone came out. Elliott said he didn’t know he had to keep the data (including text messages) that had been stored on his old phones."

https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-seems-to-have-punished-ezekiel-elliott-for-not-1798704936

Did Zeke text The Deflator?

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3 hours ago, espnespn said:

Zeke destroyed data and text messages on his old phones after getting a new phone.  That makes him guilty, according to the logic used by the Salty Haters when Brady destroyed his old phone after getting a new phone.

"During June’s hearing, Friel articulated eight factors the league viewed as a lack of cooperation on Elliott’s part, starting with the fact that Elliott said he bought two new cell phones last fall, after the new iPhone came out. Elliott said he didn’t know he had to keep the data (including text messages) that had been stored on his old phones."

https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-seems-to-have-punished-ezekiel-elliott-for-not-1798704936

I think it's perfectly normal to do that, especially if you're a celebrity.  I wipe my data when I change phones too.

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2 hours ago, beerbuff said:

It doesn't matter if he is innocent or not. All that matters is for Goodell to believe him to be guilty. Goodell has the power to find him guilty with even he said/she said testimony. There doesn't have to be any real evidence. Is that fair? No, but the players gave him that power.

No, they're due a fair arbitration per their agreement.

 

I agree they their agreement is lopsided, but he didn't even get that IMO

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5 hours ago, Moonshine said:

Just moved Mckinnon and Mixon for Elliot. The talk of a pending settlement this morning brought up the price somewhat from just McKinnon, which was unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Definitely a dice roll, but worth it, in my opinion.

That’s a pretty good move. I moved Hyde and Hogan for him this morning. 

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3 minutes ago, G-King said:

Sounds pretty convincing. Even the "take that to the bank" part. She should have thrown in a Brohan reference....

This woman was really good with updates the other day on twitter too when the news was breaking. She said something about taking it to the bank then as well.

@SWC You have something to tell us?

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Hate to bring AC material in here, but given the unique circumstances...

Lost Rodgers Sunday.  Picked up Hundley.  No other QBs rostered.

Was just offered Elliott and Matt Ryan for my Jordan Howard and Chris Hogan.  FWIW, I have DMC stashed.

Thinking I have to accept that one.  It's a win if Elliott plays all year, and a loss if he doesn't.

I guess I'm trying to get a handle on what the appropriate discount rate is to apply to Elliott these days.

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Just now, davearm said:

Hate to bring AC material in here, but given the unique circumstances...

Lost Rodgers Sunday.  Picked up Hundley.  No other QBs rostered.

Was just offered Elliott and Matt Ryan for my Jordan Howard and Chris Hogan.  FWIW, I have DMC stashed.

Thinking I have to accept that one.  It's a win if Elliott plays all year, and a loss if he doesn't.

I guess I'm trying to get a handle on what the appropriate discount rate is to apply to Elliott these days.

You feeling lucky, punk?

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2 minutes ago, davearm said:

Hate to bring AC material in here, but given the unique circumstances...

Lost Rodgers Sunday.  Picked up Hundley.  No other QBs rostered.

Was just offered Elliott and Matt Ryan for my Jordan Howard and Chris Hogan.  FWIW, I have DMC stashed.

Thinking I have to accept that one.  It's a win if Elliott plays all year, and a loss if he doesn't.

I guess I'm trying to get a handle on what the appropriate discount rate is to apply to Elliott these days.

Just depends how much you like to gamble. It's trending towards him playing out the season but it's changed directions about 5 times since this all started. 

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11 hours ago, espnespn said:

Zeke destroyed data and text messages on his old phones after getting a new phone.  That makes him guilty, according to the logic used by the Salty Haters when Brady destroyed his old phone after getting a new phone.

"During June’s hearing, Friel articulated eight factors the league viewed as a lack of cooperation on Elliott’s part, starting with the fact that Elliott said he bought two new cell phones last fall, after the new iPhone came out. Elliott said he didn’t know he had to keep the data (including text messages) that had been stored on his old phones."

https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-seems-to-have-punished-ezekiel-elliott-for-not-1798704936

i wonder what % of people start fresh when they get new iPhone.  I know i do, but not sure how common that is.  My contact list is only thing that transfers with new iPhone.

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49 minutes ago, ILUVBEER99 said:

i wonder what % of people start fresh when they get new iPhone.  I know i do, but not sure how common that is.  My contact list is only thing that transfers with new iPhone.

If he bought the phones after the investigation had started and he knew that they wanted the texts then I'd say he was guilty of destroying evidence, otherwise it was probably just a simple mistake. 

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7 hours ago, ILUVBEER99 said:

i wonder what % of people start fresh when they get new iPhone.  I know i do, but not sure how common that is.  My contact list is only thing that transfers with new iPhone.

Normally everything in icloud transfers for me, texts, apps, email, contacts, pictures.

 

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20 hours ago, espnespn said:

Zeke destroyed data and text messages on his old phones after getting a new phone.  That makes him guilty, according to the logic used by the Salty Haters when Brady destroyed his old phone after getting a new phone.

"During June’s hearing, Friel articulated eight factors the league viewed as a lack of cooperation on Elliott’s part, starting with the fact that Elliott said he bought two new cell phones last fall, after the new iPhone came out. Elliott said he didn’t know he had to keep the data (including text messages) that had been stored on his old phones."

https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-seems-to-have-punished-ezekiel-elliott-for-not-1798704936

Grasping at straws here.

"On or shortly before March 6, the day that Tom Brady met with independent investigator Ted Wells and his colleagues, Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed. He did so even though he was aware that the investigators had requested access to text messages and other electronic information that had been stored on that phone. During the four months that the cell phone was in use, Brady had exchanged nearly 10,000 text messages, none of which can now be retrieved from that device. The destruction of the cell phone was not disclosed until June 18, almost four months after the investigators had first sought electronic information from Brady."

A bit different scenario. Brady destroyed his cell phone AFTER the investigators requested access to his phone. 

8 hours ago, ILUVBEER99 said:

i wonder what % of people start fresh when they get new iPhone.  I know i do, but not sure how common that is.  My contact list is only thing that transfers with new iPhone.

My contact list is the only thing that I keep. Everything else I re-download. All my pictures/videos get backed up to an external hard drive unless there's something I really need to transfer with the new phone. 

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4 hours ago, Tommy Collins said:

Grasping at straws here.

"On or shortly before March 6, the day that Tom Brady met with independent investigator Ted Wells and his colleagues, Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed. He did so even though he was aware that the investigators had requested access to text messages and other electronic information that had been stored on that phone. During the four months that the cell phone was in use, Brady had exchanged nearly 10,000 text messages, none of which can now be retrieved from that device. The destruction of the cell phone was not disclosed until June 18, almost four months after the investigators had first sought electronic information from Brady."

A bit different scenario. Brady destroyed his cell phone AFTER the investigators requested access to his phone. 

 

Wrong, they are very similar.  Zeke wiped his phones AFTER the the NFL started investigating him.  The investigation started July 22, 2016.  Zeke wipes his phones in the fall of 2016.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/8/29/16151642/ezekiel-elliott-timeline-domestic-violence-police-report-nfl-suspension-appeal

https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-seems-to-have-punished-ezekiel-elliott-for-not-1798704936

The NFL actually says Zeke didn't cooperate and cited him wiping his phones.  Lisa Friel is the NFL's special counsel for investigations.

"During June’s hearing, Friel articulated eight factors the league viewed as a lack of cooperation on Elliott’s part, starting with the fact that Elliott said he bought two new cell phones last fall, after the new iPhone came out. Elliott said he didn’t know he had to keep the data (including text messages) that had been stored on his old phones."

Edited by espnespn
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12 hours ago, beerbuff said:

If he bought the phones after the investigation had started and he knew that they wanted the texts then I'd say he was guilty of destroying evidence, otherwise it was probably just a simple mistake. 

Zeke wiped the phones after the investigation started.  The NFL plainly says he didn't cooperate and cited him wiping his phones.

During June’s hearing, Friel articulated eight factors the league viewed as a lack of cooperation on Elliott’s part, starting with the fact that Elliott said he bought two new cell phones last fall, after the new iPhone came out. Elliott said he didn’t know he had to keep the data (including text messages) that had been stored on his old phones.

https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-seems-to-have-punished-ezekiel-elliott-for-not-1798704936

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  • Joe Bryant changed the title to RB Ezekiel Elliott, DAL

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