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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ned
- Start date
tri-man 47
Footballguy
So now what do we do?
gianmarco
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
Can you tell him to hurry up, please? We are waiting.
This is why he should have just recorded it along the way.
gruecd
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
So, @SayWhat?'s performance brings back other memories for me.
Back when @SFBayDuck did his WSER in 2017, I wasn't in this thread yet. I had just started trying to get into shape after a decade plus of being not very active. Just lifting some weights at the time. And then I decided to do this golf charity event where we walked 100 holes in a single day. 35 miles that day.
Then someone linked about Duck's performance when he was like "Hold my beer". It was the first time I ventured into this thread. About a month later I was asking advice about running my first 5K and, well, here we are. If not for someone linking that, I'm probably not here doing this now.
Back when @SFBayDuck did his WSER in 2017, I wasn't in this thread yet. I had just started trying to get into shape after a decade plus of being not very active. Just lifting some weights at the time. And then I decided to do this golf charity event where we walked 100 holes in a single day. 35 miles that day.
Then someone linked about Duck's performance when he was like "Hold my beer". It was the first time I ventured into this thread. About a month later I was asking advice about running my first 5K and, well, here we are. If not for someone linking that, I'm probably not here doing this now.
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SteelCurtain
Footballguy
I agree with all this. I like to run lots of miles but people like @SayWhat? and @SFBayDuck are a different level of BMF.
Congrats on an amazing achievement. Can’t wait for the RR.
SteelCurtain
Footballguy
Dont we start complaining in a few hours about him not posting a race report in a timely basis?
lumpy19
Footballguy
Why wait a few hours? Where’s that damn reportDont we start complaining in a few hours about him not posting a race report in a timely basis?
El Floppo
Footballguy
bushdocda
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
Yeah, that finish was very cool, and I loved seeing them all genuinely happy for each other, as you said.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
JShare87
Footballguy
tri-man 47
Footballguy
JShare87
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
Hi 10K running guys,
Looking for a little feedback. My training for this marathon has been suboptimal, to put it nicely. I'm in ok shape, I really surprised myself with my long run this week, but the reality is I've averaged about 30 mpw for the last 6 weeks (exception of one 50 mile week), and even less before then. I've completed two long runs of 16 and one 12. I'm going to shoot for one more long next weekend (16+?).
I'm just under 4 weeks away from race day. I don't think I need much of a taper given what I've been doing. I've done a few Hanson's workouts as I was loosely going with that until my setback last month. I'd like to say I'm going to hit this next week or two hard, but the reality is that probably won't happen. Between the heat and the fact our son/babysitter is out of town for next two weeks limits my ability to load up the volume. It'll be mostly treadmill runs.
Assuming a couple more weeks of 30 miles, how should I approach the final 2 weeks? My legs certainly don't feel tired or fatigued right now with current volume. I recovered surprisingly well from my 16 mile workout last week.
Open to thoughts/ideas for these last 4 weeks and, in particular, the final 2.
Looking for a little feedback. My training for this marathon has been suboptimal, to put it nicely. I'm in ok shape, I really surprised myself with my long run this week, but the reality is I've averaged about 30 mpw for the last 6 weeks (exception of one 50 mile week), and even less before then. I've completed two long runs of 16 and one 12. I'm going to shoot for one more long next weekend (16+?).
I'm just under 4 weeks away from race day. I don't think I need much of a taper given what I've been doing. I've done a few Hanson's workouts as I was loosely going with that until my setback last month. I'd like to say I'm going to hit this next week or two hard, but the reality is that probably won't happen. Between the heat and the fact our son/babysitter is out of town for next two weeks limits my ability to load up the volume. It'll be mostly treadmill runs.
Assuming a couple more weeks of 30 miles, how should I approach the final 2 weeks? My legs certainly don't feel tired or fatigued right now with current volume. I recovered surprisingly well from my 16 mile workout last week.
Open to thoughts/ideas for these last 4 weeks and, in particular, the final 2.
The Iguana
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
Depends on your goals. At this point it will be tough to go sub 4 considering your lack of volume.
So if you want to just have a good run that day and finish with minimal pain, do what you are doing and try to increase volume if you can.
gianmarco
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
I might have missed it in all the other chat, but did you guys watch the Olympics trials women's 10,000 meters? Sisson led for all but the first four laps. Tremendous performance, where she got stronger as she went along and won by about 55 meters. @SFBayDuck, were you there for that one?
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Cowboy Dan
Footballguy
I agree that you should try to get in one last long run.
Priority in the last few weeks is to be healthy and fresh at the starting line. I don’t see the upside in trying anything different.
bushdocda
Footballguy
Interesting to go shorter taper but makes sense if you think you can freshen up. You can hit 2 longer mid week goal MP runs in the next 2 weeks to get more confidence at goal pace and perhaps a 3rd a bit shorter. Like warm up, 6-8 at pace, cool down for the first one to total like 8-12 miles. And the second one up the goal pace miles to 8-10 to total like 10-14.
One more long run this weekend or next.
That fast finish long run you did is the truth, use that and believe.
Zasada
Footballguy
My two cents.
Hanson's goes with shorter distances, but offsets that with more frequency and total volume. Relying on cumulative fatigue. Given that your legs are fresh, you haven't been running on tired legs, so the cumulative fatigue aspect isn't going to help you.
I'd try to get two long (30K-33K) runs in, if you can. One this week ASAP and one two weeks after (hopefully that still gives you two weeks from your last long run to the race).
Just from my experience with my second marathon: I trained with a Hanson's plan, and followed it precisely, but I think the bar was set too low. I never really felt that cumulative fatigue people talk about. My legs felt relatively good on all the runs. But when I got over 30K for my race is when things fell apart. So I took the "easy" part of Hanson's (no 20-milers), but didn't pay for it with the "hard" part (cumulative fatigue). So I firmly believe I toed the line of my 2nd marathon under-trained, and the results weren't a heck of a lot different than my first marathon. If I could go back in time and do it again, I would have dropped a couple 20-milers in closer to the race. Would it have helped?
tri-man 47
Footballguy
This is right in line with what I was thinking. I’d lean toward MP-10 or so, but the idea is the same.
The Iguana
Footballguy
You know, I was going to just stick with the joke as my only post on the matter as I'm not really qualified to give training advice but then I just spent the last 5+ miles thinking about only 2 things:
1) @gianmarco's post and impending race.
2) how to fend off a bear attack until I could get home.
And, I figured I'd share my thoughts on both.
1) Others will give you more exact definitions of what you should/shouldn't do. And, you will probably get differing opinions. Take their sound advice and figure out what it is YOU need to do so that you :KNOW: you can hit your goals and then go do it. That last 16 miler you just did with the last 2 miles at 7:40 and 7:30 gives me all the confidence in the world that you can go out and run 3:58, if that truly is your goal. But I don't need confidence that you can do it - you do!
9 min/mile = ~3:56. I feel good that you can manage it physically barring a major incident. But you know that this race will be as much about mental fortitude as it will be about physical readiness.
2) Pretty sure that folks here don't do enough preparedness around facing bear attacks - at least not from the standpoint of "how long can I keep that bear in the cave and continue to run". It's a pretty vital thing to have an understanding of come race day, IMO. On one hand, you really don't want to have to stop and fight the bear if you don't have to. Any time spent wrestling the beast is time added to your event. But on the other, you don't want to become that next guy in the infamous picture covered in bear residue. It's one thing to be prepared and know where there is a random location to escape a bear at a construction site. It's another to know your limits and how long you can push to finish a run before needed to actually turn and face the threat that is imminent!
For the record, I more than adequately made it home before facing the threat.
1) @gianmarco's post and impending race.
2) how to fend off a bear attack until I could get home.
And, I figured I'd share my thoughts on both.
1) Others will give you more exact definitions of what you should/shouldn't do. And, you will probably get differing opinions. Take their sound advice and figure out what it is YOU need to do so that you :KNOW: you can hit your goals and then go do it. That last 16 miler you just did with the last 2 miles at 7:40 and 7:30 gives me all the confidence in the world that you can go out and run 3:58, if that truly is your goal. But I don't need confidence that you can do it - you do!
9 min/mile = ~3:56. I feel good that you can manage it physically barring a major incident. But you know that this race will be as much about mental fortitude as it will be about physical readiness.
2) Pretty sure that folks here don't do enough preparedness around facing bear attacks - at least not from the standpoint of "how long can I keep that bear in the cave and continue to run". It's a pretty vital thing to have an understanding of come race day, IMO. On one hand, you really don't want to have to stop and fight the bear if you don't have to. Any time spent wrestling the beast is time added to your event. But on the other, you don't want to become that next guy in the infamous picture covered in bear residue. It's one thing to be prepared and know where there is a random location to escape a bear at a construction site. It's another to know your limits and how long you can push to finish a run before needed to actually turn and face the threat that is imminent!
For the record, I more than adequately made it home before facing the threat.
bushdocda
Footballguy
I’ve now watched the men’s 1500m final like 6 times. Can’t believe the following:
1- that kick from deep in the pack looks like a speed burst in Mario cart.
2- Centro thinking he was cruising in solo to being like “HFS”
3-not enough gian-ing at finish line but I still think they gave honest efforts.
1- that kick from deep in the pack looks like a speed burst in Mario cart.
2- Centro thinking he was cruising in solo to being like “HFS”
3-not enough gian-ing at finish line but I still think they gave honest efforts.
gianmarco
Footballguy
I'm going to add a few more thoughts here, just kind of laying them out, and it might tie into the next 4 weeks as well. While I've got a good feel for my capabilities overall and my current fitness level with at least some experience, there's a unique aspect of this race that I'm starting to wonder how the unknown is going to affect race day.
It's no secret that I struggle with elevation but at the same time get a huge boost with downhills. That's mostly a function of being a bigger person (and we see similar with @gruecd and @MAC_32). For whatever reason, it's hyper pronounced for me. As a result, it's the one saving grace I've had to look forward to that I think will help me significantly (and probably has played at least some part in my training so far). The other thing is my run from last week. So, here are just some bulleted thoughts. Sorry for the long post, but here goes:
-- That run last week was my best non-race run ever. I don't think it's particularly close either. In fact, it's the one run (aside from a couple races) that I completely surprised myself and had no idea I was capable of. At least not capable of at my current fitness level. Obviously the weather played a big part. Also, relatively fresh legs only running 30 mpw helped. But, to run eight sub 9 minute miles after already running 8 miles, and the last 4 at 8:30/8:20/7:40/7:30 is kinda crazy to me. Those last 4 miles, in particular, I'll get to later on, but to note, that's where the downhill section starts. It's 50'/mile. More importantly, as I already posted earlier, I felt fantastic during the run and afterward. Some quad soreness the next day and by the 2nd day, completely back to normal. So, not even "race effort" or anything close to it. I've run several runs during the last year of 15+ miles and every other run has been a completely different story, even running on flat ground. So yeah, that run helped a ton. It's no fluke. I hope I don't overestimate myself as a result, but without question that run changes how I'm looking at these last 4 weeks as well as race day.
-- Knowing how downhills are for me, I think race day is going to be a very different experience. Here are a couple examples
1) Last year's FBG 1 mile race -- 8/10ths of a mile into easily my fastest mile ever, running at 5:29 pace, my HR was actually DOWN to only 151. I ran the entire mile with the race time of 5:40 and my AHR was only 150. In contrast, I hit 150 without thinking twice going up a hill near the start of most of my runs when I'm running slower than 10:30 pace.
2) This was another one of my best non-race runs -- Now, granted, I was in pretty good shape at this time. But, if you look at mile 4, I ran an 8:06 pace with a HR of 166. The last mile, mile 7, was a solid downhill, I got my pace down to 7:13 and my HR dropped to only 159. That's close to my 5K pace.
--While my main goal of getting in under 4 hours is there, I really am planning on shooting for 8:59 pace. Given what the downhill boost normally gives (-10s), then that's about the same as 3:59:59 anyway. That said, as I look and think about this, I'm guessing my HR is going to be in the low to mid 140s at that pace given the downhill of ~75'/mile. In fact, I think it's going to be very difficult to get my HR much higher at any point and highly doubt I'll ever hit even 160 at any point except maybe the very end. But that's not how I'm used to racing, obviously.
As I've learned to train by HR and now to also race by HR, I now don't know what to do with this. I truly believe I could probably run a minute/mile faster and still probably only get to the low 150's and keep it there. But I think that would be a huge mistake.
So, these thoughts are all there. I don't think fitness is going to be a factor for this race at all. It's going to be my legs. I think I need them as strong/fresh as possible and ready to do the 26.2. Volume would obviously help that, but we're past that point now.
I'm getting a little ahead of myself since I'm still a month away, but I'm wondering how I'm going to manage race day. If I'm seeing HRs of 145 and I'm 8-10 miles in, do I increase pace to try and elevate HR more? Does running faster make it harder to finish the 26.2 on my legs than running slower (but being out there longer)? I'm not worried about leaving time out there. I don't care if I finish with 8:59/pace and feel great. That won't bother me. But do I have a better shot at doing that by pushing earlier on if the HR says to do so?
There's a run I want to get done using that same ~2.5 mile downhill from the run above where I'm going to try and run it a couple times and see how my HR does on it at my GMP.
Anyway, lots here and feel free to comment on any of it. I'm not trying to overthink this. I think this is going to be unique and it'll be interesting to see how it goes.
It's no secret that I struggle with elevation but at the same time get a huge boost with downhills. That's mostly a function of being a bigger person (and we see similar with @gruecd and @MAC_32). For whatever reason, it's hyper pronounced for me. As a result, it's the one saving grace I've had to look forward to that I think will help me significantly (and probably has played at least some part in my training so far). The other thing is my run from last week. So, here are just some bulleted thoughts. Sorry for the long post, but here goes:
-- That run last week was my best non-race run ever. I don't think it's particularly close either. In fact, it's the one run (aside from a couple races) that I completely surprised myself and had no idea I was capable of. At least not capable of at my current fitness level. Obviously the weather played a big part. Also, relatively fresh legs only running 30 mpw helped. But, to run eight sub 9 minute miles after already running 8 miles, and the last 4 at 8:30/8:20/7:40/7:30 is kinda crazy to me. Those last 4 miles, in particular, I'll get to later on, but to note, that's where the downhill section starts. It's 50'/mile. More importantly, as I already posted earlier, I felt fantastic during the run and afterward. Some quad soreness the next day and by the 2nd day, completely back to normal. So, not even "race effort" or anything close to it. I've run several runs during the last year of 15+ miles and every other run has been a completely different story, even running on flat ground. So yeah, that run helped a ton. It's no fluke. I hope I don't overestimate myself as a result, but without question that run changes how I'm looking at these last 4 weeks as well as race day.
-- Knowing how downhills are for me, I think race day is going to be a very different experience. Here are a couple examples
1) Last year's FBG 1 mile race -- 8/10ths of a mile into easily my fastest mile ever, running at 5:29 pace, my HR was actually DOWN to only 151. I ran the entire mile with the race time of 5:40 and my AHR was only 150. In contrast, I hit 150 without thinking twice going up a hill near the start of most of my runs when I'm running slower than 10:30 pace.
2) This was another one of my best non-race runs -- Now, granted, I was in pretty good shape at this time. But, if you look at mile 4, I ran an 8:06 pace with a HR of 166. The last mile, mile 7, was a solid downhill, I got my pace down to 7:13 and my HR dropped to only 159. That's close to my 5K pace.
--While my main goal of getting in under 4 hours is there, I really am planning on shooting for 8:59 pace. Given what the downhill boost normally gives (-10s), then that's about the same as 3:59:59 anyway. That said, as I look and think about this, I'm guessing my HR is going to be in the low to mid 140s at that pace given the downhill of ~75'/mile. In fact, I think it's going to be very difficult to get my HR much higher at any point and highly doubt I'll ever hit even 160 at any point except maybe the very end. But that's not how I'm used to racing, obviously.
As I've learned to train by HR and now to also race by HR, I now don't know what to do with this. I truly believe I could probably run a minute/mile faster and still probably only get to the low 150's and keep it there. But I think that would be a huge mistake.
So, these thoughts are all there. I don't think fitness is going to be a factor for this race at all. It's going to be my legs. I think I need them as strong/fresh as possible and ready to do the 26.2. Volume would obviously help that, but we're past that point now.
I'm getting a little ahead of myself since I'm still a month away, but I'm wondering how I'm going to manage race day. If I'm seeing HRs of 145 and I'm 8-10 miles in, do I increase pace to try and elevate HR more? Does running faster make it harder to finish the 26.2 on my legs than running slower (but being out there longer)? I'm not worried about leaving time out there. I don't care if I finish with 8:59/pace and feel great. That won't bother me. But do I have a better shot at doing that by pushing earlier on if the HR says to do so?
There's a run I want to get done using that same ~2.5 mile downhill from the run above where I'm going to try and run it a couple times and see how my HR does on it at my GMP.
Anyway, lots here and feel free to comment on any of it. I'm not trying to overthink this. I think this is going to be unique and it'll be interesting to see how it goes.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
As long as your HR is in the 140's I think about 8:55 is reasonable - treat it like a built in contingency. Go easy in the tunnel, but try to settle in here once into daylight. Under no circumstances do you go any faster than that before the final 10K or so though. Be happy if your HR stays put, but even with the down hill I would be extremely surprised if you don't start seeing the creep by around the midpoint of the race. If the HR creep starts early then scale it back before you blow up. It may already be too late though.
This is semantics, but I don't agree about the legs being a more concerning issue than fitness. It's a greater unknown, but they are both big issues. You can make relatively informed decisions related to your fitness throughout the race, but there is nothing you can do in advance to mentally prepare for the down hill nature of this race. You won't know if they have what it takes until you can see the line.
This is semantics, but I don't agree about the legs being a more concerning issue than fitness. It's a greater unknown, but they are both big issues. You can make relatively informed decisions related to your fitness throughout the race, but there is nothing you can do in advance to mentally prepare for the down hill nature of this race. You won't know if they have what it takes until you can see the line.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, the tunnel is flat. So, I'm definitely going to start this race on the easier side, probably closer to 9:30. I think it's close to 3 miles that are like that. I'll try and keep the 4 hr pacer within sight if possible but won't worry much about it.
The above sounds completely reasonable. I'm curious to see what a couple of those downhills at that pace does for me on the slope near here. I'm going to try and get that done this week.
And no question I'll slow down if my HR goes up at any point early on, but I would be willing to be a large sum that won't happen, at least for a minimum of the first half. If I see anything over 159 before mile 20, I'm slowing it down.
ETA -- 3 miles of 9:30 and 23 miles of 8:55 is exactly 8:59 overall.
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bushdocda
Footballguy
@gianmarco
Good plan to include the downhill stretch in your upcoming longer sessions. Good for legs and pace and HR calibration. Hard to say whether it will let you push the pace though as downhill sections wreck legs too in there own right as you know. Including it in next runs will tell a lot.
Good plan to include the downhill stretch in your upcoming longer sessions. Good for legs and pace and HR calibration. Hard to say whether it will let you push the pace though as downhill sections wreck legs too in there own right as you know. Including it in next runs will tell a lot.
Yo fellas! I’M STILL ALIVE! I’m pretty beat up, especially my feet and right ankle. I’m sure I have a certain level of rhabdo, but hydrating like crazy and my wife is only the debate stage of whether she wants me to head in to the local hospital to have labs run.
Made it through all your posts...many thanks for following along and greatly appreciate your support and words of encouragement.
I will try to respond to some of the posts in the near future, and plan to post a race report as soon as possible once I’m back home (later this week). Should be a pretty interesting recap as there were some great stories along the way. An incredible experience out here. Pumped to have finished and put the uncertainty of how this race would play out in the rear view.
Made it through all your posts...many thanks for following along and greatly appreciate your support and words of encouragement.
I will try to respond to some of the posts in the near future, and plan to post a race report as soon as possible once I’m back home (later this week). Should be a pretty interesting recap as there were some great stories along the way. An incredible experience out here. Pumped to have finished and put the uncertainty of how this race would play out in the rear view.
El Floppo
Footballguy
TELL US ABOUT THE POOPINGYo fellas! I’M STILL ALIVE! I’m pretty beat up, especially my feet and right ankle. I’m sure I have a certain level of rhabdo, but hydrating like crazy and my wife is only the debate stage of whether she wants me to head in to the local hospital to have labs run.
Made it through all your posts...many thanks for following along and greatly appreciate your support and words of encouragement.
I will try to respond to some of the posts in the near future, and plan to post a race report as soon as possible once I’m back home (later this week). Should be a pretty interesting recap as there were some great stories along the way. An incredible experience out here. Pumped to have finished and put the uncertainty of how this race would play out in the rear view.
MAC_32
Footballguy
You know your zones better than anyone, but...this is what I meant about a slowing down decision being too late. A 159 HR at mile 20 is vastly different than at mile 15. What's the appropriate number at each mile?
Once you get too hot too soon the blow up is a when not an if though.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Just to give you some heart rate perspective from a guy who runs alot like you - similar heart rate zones but also not as committed and experienced as most of the guys here.
For my Carmel marathon, my average heart rate was 165. This felt right that day and I never felt like I was overworking. It was just right. And that was on a hilly course with a lot of undulations. And this has proven out over a lot of half marathons also:
Marathon HR = 165
Half Marathon HR = 175-180
With Jack & Jill being so downhill, I wouldn't be afraid at all if you see 160-165 on your heart rate monitor. Now granted, I had a lot more mileage under my belt, and I just trusted that my heart rate would stay there. And that's the beauty of having two previous marathons to draw from.
But you are smart enough to recognize the signs. Your heart rate monitor will tell you all you need to know. And you already have one marathon of experience to draw from.
But seeing 160 ish wouldn't scare me for you.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Hocker is a beast, that was so fun to watch. Not sure if you watched the prelims with he and Centro - as they pulled away from the pack and were nearing the finish line they started looking at each other and smiling, Duck to Duck!
Hopefully Hocker makes the team. He doesn't have the qualifying time but they can look at his win here, his win at NCAAs, and how close he is to the qualifying time and put him on if they'd like. If not, then mullet/camper truck guy, who finished fourth but has a qualifier, will get that spot.
SteelCurtain
Footballguy
@gianmarco -
Here are my thoughts. I would try to do a 20 miler and a 16 miler before the race. I think time on your feet is important. I'd continue to also mix in some tempo/hill work during the week. Once you are 10 days out from the race, I'd cut it way down to nothing but easy runs. (No fitness gains will be realized in the 10 days before the race.)
A downhill run will challenge your quads so I would try to do some quad strength work between now and 10 days prior to the race.
Regarding HR, I think it will difficult to fully use it to drive decisions due to the downhill nature of the race. My worry would be, once your quads are shot then your race is also. I like your 8:55-8:59 pace plan. If your HR suggest you can go faster, I wouldn't believe it until mile 22+.
Good luck!
Here are my thoughts. I would try to do a 20 miler and a 16 miler before the race. I think time on your feet is important. I'd continue to also mix in some tempo/hill work during the week. Once you are 10 days out from the race, I'd cut it way down to nothing but easy runs. (No fitness gains will be realized in the 10 days before the race.)
A downhill run will challenge your quads so I would try to do some quad strength work between now and 10 days prior to the race.
Regarding HR, I think it will difficult to fully use it to drive decisions due to the downhill nature of the race. My worry would be, once your quads are shot then your race is also. I like your 8:55-8:59 pace plan. If your HR suggest you can go faster, I wouldn't believe it until mile 22+.
Good luck!
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