FUBAR
Footballguy
I've gone on the high side, though usually I think of it more as a range (say 140-149) but couldn't tell you if there's a big difference.
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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ned
- Start date
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I don't know what zones those numbers put you in but you can get different benefits from different speeds in the aerobic zones.
Hang 10
Footballguy
They are the same zone. I'm just asking if there's any difference between being on the high or low end of the easy zone.
Hang 10
Footballguy
Obviously I have no reason to doubt you but that heart rate and pace look like Steve type numbers.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
I'm not educated enough on this to understand any possible nuances between running in the high or low end of a specific zone, just the concepts and benefits of the training zones themselves. So for me I've always treated it like a range, and not worried about it too much. When I do it's really based more so than anything on the distance I'm running. If it's a shorter run and cardiac drift isn't going to have too much of an impact, then I'll try and stay near the top of the range. But if I'm running 2-4 hours where I know HR is going to climb, then I'll try and keep it at the low end early and keep the effort consistent while the HR will slowly climb.
Heat can certainly play a part as well - HR is going to be higher in the heat, so I'm likely to start a run trying to stick nearer to the low end knowing that at a consistent effort it's likely to go up.
That being said I've only put the monitor on sporadically recently, just going by feel more than anything. But as I start up again following this post-race down time I may pull it out of the drawer again and do some more structured training again.
Ned
Footballguy
I don't think they're the same zone for you. 140 is probably the max you should do for recovery runs, with lower being better. 150-152 should be the max for normal easy/long runs. I'm spitballing since I don't have my calculator handy. I'll check tomorrow. Your max is 202?Hang 10 said:
Hang 10
Footballguy
Not quite sure my exact max. I hit 200 at the end of my 5K 3 weeks ago but I also averaged 198 for a full mile...so it's gotta be 200+.
How strict are you on the heart rate averages for your easy runs? Do you try to make sure heart rate creep doesn't go past a certain # later in the run or is average for the entire run more important?
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tri-man 47
Footballguy
I agree.SFBayDuck said:
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Sorry dude, been on the road all week and missed it. Super-secret-100-mile-club-upper-elite tier PM sent.
Ned
Footballguy
I just watch the max "allowable" HR for each zone. So if I'm on a 12mi MLR, I won't let it go past 148. Otherwise, I just roll with it and don't check it much. I will say that when I'm in marathon training, I try to stay on the lower end of the range just for the fact that I'm going to be running so much I don't want to burn myself out. HR creep usually becomes an issue when I'm running 18mi+.
LT runs are easy to run, for me anyways. For whatever reason, I have the feel of LT dialed in and don't need to check it while I'm running. I like to play games and try to call my HR and then look at the watch.
I plugged in 200 and 202 into my spreadsheet with the ranges I've come to use:
200 mHR
Recovery = <140
Easy + Long Runs = 141-150
General Aerobic = 151-164 (I don't run much here; otherwise known as no man's land)
MP = 165 - 175 (I'd target 170 on training runs)
LT = 176 - 181
202 = +1bpm on all ranges
BassNBrew
Footballguy
LT = Long tempo or lacate threshold?I just watch the max "allowable" HR for each zone. So if I'm on a 12mi MLR, I won't let it go past 148. Otherwise, I just roll with it and don't check it much. I will say that when I'm in marathon training, I try to stay on the lower end of the range just for the fact that I'm going to be running so much I don't want to burn myself out. HR creep usually becomes an issue when I'm running 18mi+.
LT runs are easy to run, for me anyways. For whatever reason, I have the feel of LT dialed in and don't need to check it while I'm running. I like to play games and try to call my HR and then look at the watch.
I plugged in 200 and 202 into my spreadsheet with the ranges I've come to use:
200 mHR
Recovery = <140
Easy + Long Runs = 141-150
General Aerobic = 151-164 (I don't run much here; otherwise known as no man's land)
MP = 165 - 175 (I'd target 170 on training runs)
LT = 176 - 181
202 = +1bpm on all ranges
FUBAR
Footballguy
Is there a noticeable benefit of doing this instead of staying at a more consistent 147 bpm for 2-4 hours? Granted, while we may start sub 8 and finish at around a 9 minute pace, the total time should be less (at least in theory). Or have you noticed that if you start out lower you can finish with a faster pace? IOW, is your average time lower when you stay at a consistent HR or when you start slower? Does it matter what you did when it comes to race day?
Ned
Footballguy
Both, kind of. The only time I do lactate threshold work is during long tempo runs @ 15Kish pace (1hour).LT = Long tempo or lacate threshold?I just watch the max "allowable" HR for each zone. So if I'm on a 12mi MLR, I won't let it go past 148. Otherwise, I just roll with it and don't check it much. I will say that when I'm in marathon training, I try to stay on the lower end of the range just for the fact that I'm going to be running so much I don't want to burn myself out. HR creep usually becomes an issue when I'm running 18mi+.
LT runs are easy to run, for me anyways. For whatever reason, I have the feel of LT dialed in and don't need to check it while I'm running. I like to play games and try to call my HR and then look at the watch.
I plugged in 200 and 202 into my spreadsheet with the ranges I've come to use:
200 mHR
Recovery = <140
Easy + Long Runs = 141-150
General Aerobic = 151-164 (I don't run much here; otherwise known as no man's land)
MP = 165 - 175 (I'd target 170 on training runs)
LT = 176 - 181
202 = +1bpm on all ranges
BassNBrew
Footballguy
My max hr is 183-185 and my tested lacate threshold was 167. When I was in good shape I could last an hour in the low 160's. It was a huge effort to stay at 167 for any over 25 minutes. I'd only do this in all out time trials. 172+ would be a five min max effort about to puke.Both, kind of. The only time I do lactate threshold work is during long tempo runs @ 15Kish pace (1hour).LT = Long tempo or lacate threshold?I just watch the max "allowable" HR for each zone. So if I'm on a 12mi MLR, I won't let it go past 148. Otherwise, I just roll with it and don't check it much. I will say that when I'm in marathon training, I try to stay on the lower end of the range just for the fact that I'm going to be running so much I don't want to burn myself out. HR creep usually becomes an issue when I'm running 18mi+.
LT runs are easy to run, for me anyways. For whatever reason, I have the feel of LT dialed in and don't need to check it while I'm running. I like to play games and try to call my HR and then look at the watch.
I plugged in 200 and 202 into my spreadsheet with the ranges I've come to use:
200 mHR
Recovery = <140
Easy + Long Runs = 141-150
General Aerobic = 151-164 (I don't run much here; otherwise known as no man's land)
MP = 165 - 175 (I'd target 170 on training runs)
LT = 176 - 181
202 = +1bpm on all ranges
Based on my test I would say that LT for someone at 200 max hr would be closer to 180-185. It's probably very important for someone who is going to use strict hr training zones to get tested so they know exactly what to do. In lieu of the lab testing, go run 20 minutes even pace as hard as you can and record the heart over the last 20 minutes. The average hr over the last 10 minutes should give you a good approximation of your lacate threshold.
Ultimately my point is that a 10 bpm range is going to cover a effort range from 5 minutes to 60 minutes. I would also contend than most long tempo runs are going to be done just below LT.
Your thoughts on this?
BassNBrew
Footballguy
gruecd
Footballguy
Ned
Footballguy
He's making fun of me after I posted a threat on FB to talk to him about HR for 5hrs during Ice Age.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
I really don't know the answer. My mid week runs have been limited to a max of about 8 miles, which isn't enough distance to sort this out. My longer runs tend to be over different terrains, and less frequent, so I don't have enough data to answer with any degree of certainty. For a long race (HM to marathon), I know the HR will creep up. I push the pace early to get the HR up then generally maintain pace while the HR increases. For me, I know I can start a longer race in the 160s, knowing it will move to the 170s (with a 5K max of about 190). Without the HR 'control,' I'd be more likely to push too hard early on and then lose pace later in the race.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Instead you resorted to 5 hours of random "so what"s. Pick your poison, right?
He's making fun of me after I posted a threat on FB to talk to him about HR for 5hrs during Ice Age.
Ned
Footballguy
I agree and think we're saying the same thing - that's why I said it's kind of both.My max hr is 183-185 and my tested lacate threshold was 167. When I was in good shape I could last an hour in the low 160's. It was a huge effort to stay at 167 for any over 25 minutes. I'd only do this in all out time trials. 172+ would be a five min max effort about to puke.Both, kind of. The only time I do lactate threshold work is during long tempo runs @ 15Kish pace (1hour).LT = Long tempo or lacate threshold?I just watch the max "allowable" HR for each zone. So if I'm on a 12mi MLR, I won't let it go past 148. Otherwise, I just roll with it and don't check it much. I will say that when I'm in marathon training, I try to stay on the lower end of the range just for the fact that I'm going to be running so much I don't want to burn myself out. HR creep usually becomes an issue when I'm running 18mi+.
LT runs are easy to run, for me anyways. For whatever reason, I have the feel of LT dialed in and don't need to check it while I'm running. I like to play games and try to call my HR and then look at the watch.
I plugged in 200 and 202 into my spreadsheet with the ranges I've come to use:
200 mHR
Recovery = <140
Easy + Long Runs = 141-150
General Aerobic = 151-164 (I don't run much here; otherwise known as no man's land)
MP = 165 - 175 (I'd target 170 on training runs)
LT = 176 - 181
202 = +1bpm on all ranges
Based on my test I would say that LT for someone at 200 max hr would be closer to 180-185. It's probably very important for someone who is going to use strict hr training zones to get tested so they know exactly what to do. In lieu of the lab testing, go run 20 minutes even pace as hard as you can and record the heart over the last 20 minutes. The average hr over the last 10 minutes should give you a good approximation of your lacate threshold.
Ultimately my point is that a 10 bpm range is going to cover a effort range from 5 minutes to 60 minutes. I would also contend than most long tempo runs are going to be done just below LT.
Your thoughts on this?
I've never done any testing (I really want to but I'm lazy), but I've come to learn my ranges over the past 4 or so years of training. I'm fairly confident that my Lactate Threshold is 178 (196 max). Using your 167/185, that puts me very close (176). I use this number on my tempo runs as a line in the sand - don't cross it but try to stay close to it. Each tempo run, especially as I get more in shape over the course of a cycle, starts out at the lower end of that range I posted and ends up 1-3bpm off of LT at the end. That actually applies to all ranges for me personally.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Did he talk financial stuff?
He's making fun of me after I posted a threat on FB to talk to him about HR for 5hrs during Ice Age.
I picture Gru dissecting international hedge fund performance while his client is thinking show me the money. Similar to us mumbling about hr.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Congrats. How long have you known her?Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
beer 30
Footballguy
So what?
WHOA PLAYER! Congratulations!!!!Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
Can you turn your HR monitor on this evening so we have some data to discuss? TIA
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
In before Ned asks you to wear an HRM and send him the data afterward.Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
Congrats!
Ned
Footballguy
His company is actually a huge client of mine (all of his accounts have gone through my hands), but we surprisingly didn't talk shop for more than 2mins during the entire weekend. I was ready to smack him with the no shop talk rule, but we never got there.Did he talk financial stuff?
He's making fun of me after I posted a threat on FB to talk to him about HR for 5hrs during Ice Age.
I picture Gru dissecting international hedge fund performance while his client is thinking show me the money. Similar to us mumbling about hr.
Ned
Footballguy
So what?
WHOA PLAYER! Congratulations!!!!Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
Can you turn your HR monitor on this evening so we have some data to discuss? TIA
Awesome.
pbm107
Footballguy
I think so far all the advice is good, but I agree with this there is far from a consensus on which ranges are appropriate/possible, for example the spreadsheet here called Training and Racing Heart Rate Zones (I hope the link works it is blocked at work) shows the differences between what is recommended by Daniels, Hadd, and Pfitzinger.
I think the HR ranges are very individual specific and those ranges can change over time.
gruecd
Footballguy
We've been together 8-1/2 months. She's 33, and I'm 38, and we've both been married once before. We know what we want. I don't have time to mess around anymore.Congrats. How long have you known her?Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
Ned
Footballguy
Yup, which is why I've always advocated just running and collecting your data for a while. You'll see the zones sort themselves out soon enough (as I think we're seeing come together for Hang10).
You and I are good examples of different ranges. We have the similar max, but I believe you're a good 6-7bpm different on your ranges. Right?
tri-man 47
Footballguy
We've been together 8-1/2 months. She's 33, and I'm 38, and we've both been married once before. We know what we want. I don't have time to mess around anymore.Congrats. How long have you known her?Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
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gruecd
Footballguy
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
If you wanna run, then run.
The bolded is an excellent point. It's often best to back into your personal heart rate zones after analyzing training and races. For runners with limited experience, looking at these ballpark ranges can be quite helpful. For an experienced runner like Hang 10, I think he already has a good natural feel for what is truly easy and what his tempo paces should be.
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ChiefD
Footballguy
Cool. Congrats!Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
Hang 10
Footballguy
Speaking of gun to the head...you're getting married??Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
j/k congrats
Hang 10
Footballguy
I believe the general rule is that if the sickness is from the neck up you can train if you want but below the neck, you need rest.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
phatdawg
Footballguy
My wife and I were a little older when we met and I asked her after we had been together for about the same amount of time as you and your girlfriend (soon to be fiance). Something to be said for maturity and knowing what you want.We've been together 8-1/2 months. She's 33, and I'm 38, and we've both been married once before. We know what we want. I don't have time to mess around anymore.Congrats. How long have you known her?Speaking of heartrate going through the roof, I'm proposing to the GF tonight...
Congrats dude!
worrierking
Footballguy
Congrats Grue!
beer 30
Footballguy
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