SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Very well said, @ChiefD, and @TripleThreat I echo the sentiment.
And don't worry about tl:dr posts in here....you haven't seen one of my race reports yet.
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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ned
- Start date
And don't worry about tl:dr posts in here....you haven't seen one of my race reports yet.
The Iguana
Footballguy
Sorry for your loss, @TripleThreat, but that is quite the inspiring story. Looking forward to hearing about how the training goes and the race. Will be fun to celebrate with you when you have finished it!
ChiefD
Footballguy
I am having serious doubts today about completing this marathon cycle.
When I threw my hat in the ring last spring, it was to take advantage of a ridiculously inexpensive marathon sign-up, with the thought process that I would give this a try. With the health stuff, there was always going to be a question if I could pull this off. As of today I am not sure I can. Here are the reasons:
1. I am seeing virtually no gains over the last 3 months. I thought I would see a boost when the weather changed in the fall, but I was seeing similar pace to heart rate results even when the weather cooled down. This is not happening, even with ideal weather conditions this winter. I could not have asked for better training weather.
2. I checked my paces at this point in my training vs my 2016 Chicago build-up. I am either right at or even slightly slower than I was at that time. And that cycle was in the middle of a brutally humid summer here in KC. This is very discouraging, especially with the great temps I have been getting.
3. I am certainly running more speed work this cycle than I ever have.
4. Every workout, and I mean EVERY workout, is hard. Meaning my perceived effort is on the difficult side. For example, my 5 miles at MP tonight was hard. My heart rate was in the 170's, which is normally HM rate for me.
Now, I know the Hanson plan is designed for cumulative fatigue, so I get that I should expect to be tired. But 7 weeks in I expect to see some gains in pace relative to HR. Now, I also understand that it's possible I have set my goal too high. BUT, I am basing my training paces on the running calculator chart that the Hanson plan suggests. I based it off of my spring HM of 1:51. So I've tried to use those recommended paces as my paces for these workouts.
Now, I also understand that this is supposed to be hard. I am ok with that and expect hard work to produce results. And unfortunately, I am not seeing any right now. I would think after 7 weeks I would see small victories.
And all I see, and this is also based on a lot of data from two previous marathon cycles, is that I am in no better shape than I was then. Maybe even worse. And I'm not running this race to run a 4:30 again. That's not why I am attempting this again.
So I am seriously considering aborting this attempt. I don't know if the stomach stuff has affected other parts of my body - maybe my ability to build endurance and speed. I don't know. I do know that I am having zero symptoms otherwise. My diet has been balanced (a few more calories of course), and I have had zero stomach and colon flare ups since I started.
Everything feels good except my paces and heart rates. I am just working way too hard in terms of perceived effort. I don't think I can get there.
Damitol.
When I threw my hat in the ring last spring, it was to take advantage of a ridiculously inexpensive marathon sign-up, with the thought process that I would give this a try. With the health stuff, there was always going to be a question if I could pull this off. As of today I am not sure I can. Here are the reasons:
1. I am seeing virtually no gains over the last 3 months. I thought I would see a boost when the weather changed in the fall, but I was seeing similar pace to heart rate results even when the weather cooled down. This is not happening, even with ideal weather conditions this winter. I could not have asked for better training weather.
2. I checked my paces at this point in my training vs my 2016 Chicago build-up. I am either right at or even slightly slower than I was at that time. And that cycle was in the middle of a brutally humid summer here in KC. This is very discouraging, especially with the great temps I have been getting.
3. I am certainly running more speed work this cycle than I ever have.
4. Every workout, and I mean EVERY workout, is hard. Meaning my perceived effort is on the difficult side. For example, my 5 miles at MP tonight was hard. My heart rate was in the 170's, which is normally HM rate for me.
Now, I know the Hanson plan is designed for cumulative fatigue, so I get that I should expect to be tired. But 7 weeks in I expect to see some gains in pace relative to HR. Now, I also understand that it's possible I have set my goal too high. BUT, I am basing my training paces on the running calculator chart that the Hanson plan suggests. I based it off of my spring HM of 1:51. So I've tried to use those recommended paces as my paces for these workouts.
Now, I also understand that this is supposed to be hard. I am ok with that and expect hard work to produce results. And unfortunately, I am not seeing any right now. I would think after 7 weeks I would see small victories.
And all I see, and this is also based on a lot of data from two previous marathon cycles, is that I am in no better shape than I was then. Maybe even worse. And I'm not running this race to run a 4:30 again. That's not why I am attempting this again.
So I am seriously considering aborting this attempt. I don't know if the stomach stuff has affected other parts of my body - maybe my ability to build endurance and speed. I don't know. I do know that I am having zero symptoms otherwise. My diet has been balanced (a few more calories of course), and I have had zero stomach and colon flare ups since I started.
Everything feels good except my paces and heart rates. I am just working way too hard in terms of perceived effort. I don't think I can get there.
Damitol.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
@ChiefD I’m a little confused about the seven weeks. It looks like you were running in the 20s each week, then in the 30s for two weeks then at about 40 the last two weeks. I suspect this recent volume increase (plus I think you just started doing SOS runs) will start paying off soon. And, as you state, your body is fatigued.
I hope you will at least give it another month and see where you’re at then. I’ve had several cycles in the past when I didn’t feel like I was improving until near the end. But consistent training always seems to end up working.
I hope you will at least give it another month and see where you’re at then. I’ve had several cycles in the past when I didn’t feel like I was improving until near the end. But consistent training always seems to end up working.
ChiefD
Footballguy
I have been following the Hanson plan, which started 7 weeks ago. In the past when I have run 20 to 25 miles a week, I usually start to see small gains as time goes on. And then when a training cycle ramps up, I start to see the gains more rapidly.
What is concerning is I have run pretty consistently since the middle of June. And I have never been a huge mileage guy, but I would still see gains coming. For example, I checked back at my training cycle leading into my HM in 2016 when I ran a 1:46. I was running weekly mileages similar to my build up to this cycle, yet I was running a full 30 seconds per mile faster at similar heart rates.
Something is off here, and the only think I can point to is the health stuff. Its the only change other than me being two years older. But I also weigh about 7 pounds less too.
MAC_32
Footballguy
One component that makes comparing this cycle vs precious ones flawed are the SoS runs. You are doing more of them relative to previous years and increasing volume at the same time. Increasing quality and quantity at the same time is a tall order for anyone regardless of fitness.
gianmarco
Footballguy
I don't know #### about marathon training.
But I know you're a BMF. And you never thought you'd run another marathon again. You've got your health under good control right now. You've put 7 weeks in plus the base work before. You finish this ####er and get out there regardless of what that final time is.
But I know you're a BMF. And you never thought you'd run another marathon again. You've got your health under good control right now. You've put 7 weeks in plus the base work before. You finish this ####er and get out there regardless of what that final time is.
ChiefD
Footballguy
I do appreciate the pep talk. Trust me, the kind words do help.
But, I know I can run a marathon. What I want, and what I signed up for, is to break 4:00 in a marathon. For me, it’s a magic number. Don’t ask me why - it just is.
So that’s what this marathon is all about. If I know I cannot get there, I’m not gonna spend the travel money just to finish a marathon. But I have to know I am going to be able give it an honest go. If I fail to execute on race day thats one thing.
If I am not prepared than I won’t toe the line.
TripleThreat
Footballguy
I know #### about running, however I was a competitive 100 mile mountain biker, in training I worked on weeks of ramping up and rest week. Pending age 3/1 4/1.
Could be overtraining but I’m not looking at TSS scores. Nor would I be confident giving action suggestions
Could be overtraining but I’m not looking at TSS scores. Nor would I be confident giving action suggestions
TripleThreat
Footballguy
Seeing the incoming inclement weather anyone run in YakTrax?
bushdocda
Footballguy
@ChiefD it’s been 2 weeks of workouts. Running goal pace on tired legs is the whole program. You accelerated it a bit by moving that long run up to yesterday
You get 3 cracks at each tempo distance as they progress longer. Use them as your gauge to whether goal pace and thus the other paces need to be adjusted. I think you nail the next tempo run next week and then your reward is to add 3 miles to it the next time
I didn’t look but as best you can try to keep the route the same so you can compare the tempo runs/effort. Good luck amigo.
You get 3 cracks at each tempo distance as they progress longer. Use them as your gauge to whether goal pace and thus the other paces need to be adjusted. I think you nail the next tempo run next week and then your reward is to add 3 miles to it the next time
I didn’t look but as best you can try to keep the route the same so you can compare the tempo runs/effort. Good luck amigo.
ChiefD
Footballguy
This is a good point. But at this point I should at least be able to run my easy runs in the 9:55 ish pace with a low 150’s HR. I can’t even do that.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Ok, thanks.@ChiefD it’s been 2 weeks of workouts. Running goal pace on tired legs is the whole program. You accelerated it a bit by moving that long run up to yesterday
You get 3 cracks at each tempo distance as they progress longer. Use them as your gauge to whether goal pace and thus the other paces need to be adjusted. I think you nail the next tempo run next week and then your reward is to add 3 miles to it the next time
I didn’t look but as best you can try to keep the route the same so you can compare the tempo runs/effort. Good luck amigo.
Actually, today was my 3rd crack at the 5 mile tempo. So this is what precipitated the above post. So maybe it is time to adjust my goal.
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ChiefD
Footballguy
bushdocda
Footballguy
Ah sorry missed the one on the 3rd. Goal is 3:55 so 9:00 miles on tempo, right? That first one looks like it got fast but the second 2 are more in line. The elevation on the route is causing some variation in effort and pace. Only thing that sticks out from the run yesterday is the warm up mile is almost 1 min faster than easy pace of 10-10:30 and that gets your HR up faster/higher. The rest of your easy run days look like you’re in easy range but you do tend to run your first mile faster which gets HR up faster even on easy days. Can’t see details on the speed workouts and recovery intervals.
To echo @MAC_32 ‘s point, you stacked a lot on consecutive days on top of workouts and higher mileage build. Review your paces and really try to lock in before you adjust slower. I programmed the SOS workouts into my watch with pace indicators so I knew if I got fast on the warm up or slow/fast on the workouts. It helped a lot to disconnect from paying attention to pace and focus on the work. HR might dip a bit too if your checking watch less.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
By Saturday morning you'll have done as many miles this month as you had in any month before December in a year and a half. And you'll be nearing December's total already. I really don't think this is any more complicated than building both quantity and quality at the same time. One or the other? Absolutely. Simultaneously? I'm sure there are some that have, but I can tell you I can't do that. 8 miles at MP October 10 when when you had done a total of 13 miles the previous 6 days is substantially different than a 5 mile tempo when you've done more miles in the prior 2 days than that 6 day window in October and 49 miles in the last week - at least 6 of which were done in a half foot of snow.
pbm107
Footballguy
You have received good feedback thus far, but my opinion is that the Hanson's calculator is fairly aggressive I know when I plug my shorter race times I can't come close to what is shows for the marathon. You mentioned that you plugged in 1:51 into the calculator which shows a 3:51:26 or 8:50 pace which appears to be what you were attempting in some of your tempos. I would back off on the pace and attempt them 9:09 (3:59:59). What is your PR in the marathon, is it 4:31:25? For what it is worth I struggle with running fast in the winter.
The Iguana
Footballguy
Have you paid much attention to "how you are running" in addition to "how fast"? Recently I had started having a problem where I was trying to do some "long easy runs" and they were hurting more and my heart rate was out of whack as compared to runs as I was "pushing it". Didn't make any sense. From discussion here I realized that when I was trying to just "run easy" I wasn't running with very good form or focus and was really stressing my body more.
I made a concentrated effort to focus on cadence, breathing patterns, and consistency of form. Almost instantly I was running faster and it felt easier.
A lot of it was mental, IMO. I had a picture that the longer runs should be "easy" and I didn't really concentrate on running "the right way". Could just be fatigue, etc, but could be that a slight change of focus might help?
MAC_32
Footballguy
This could also be all this really is too. I don't have enough data and experience to draw back and come to any conclusions, but I've noticed some eyebrow raising improvements 2 of the last 3 late February's.
The Iguana
Footballguy
As an example, I had gone out to run a couple of known routes - favorites, if you will - and was pushing it to see how I could do compared to previous runs. I easily beat my best times of late doing those runs and felt awesome. I then ran a couple of "easy runs" at a pace about 30-60 seconds per minute slower and my heart rate was way higher than I expected and they were anything but "easy runs". Made no sense to me until people hear just happened to have a discussion about cadence, effort, power behind each step, etc.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Yeah, 4:31:25. So yeah, I definitely picked the more aggressive approach to see if I can hit those numbers in the calculator.
So maybe that's the answer - stop trying to be greedy and go ahead and train for what my true goal has been all along - break 4:00.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Yeah, this is kind of where I am at.
And the guys here are certainly pointing out an obvious problem - the increase in volume and intensity. And @MAC_32 made a great point above - I have never run this many days in a row. and certainly in previous training cycles I usually had 2 rest days a week instead of one.
So this is a big change for me.
ChiefD
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
pbm107
Footballguy
The Hansons improvement chart tops out at 10%, which would be 4:04:17 for your PR. My experience with Hansons was that it was tough and a grind but I never had to empty the tank for any of the workouts, it seems like you are pushing yourself too hard.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Yeah, that appears to be so. Looks like I will back it off for the next month or so, get through February and see where I am. Thanks for the help everyone.
gruecd
Footballguy
@ChiefD - I don't know #### about the Hansons plan, but I'll just echo what everyone else is saying, that the simultaneous increase in both intensity and volume (a universally accepted training no-no) is to blame here. Don't be too quick to pull the plug. You got his.
For me, the impending winter storm means I'm looking at a mind-numbing 66 laps at the Pettit tomorrow morning.
Gonna try to get there when they open at 5:30 AM so I can get most of my laps done before it gets busy. Gonna be an absolute zoo tomorrow....
For me, the impending winter storm means I'm looking at a mind-numbing 66 laps at the Pettit tomorrow morning.
Gonna try to get there when they open at 5:30 AM so I can get most of my laps done before it gets busy. Gonna be an absolute zoo tomorrow....
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Just curious about Hansons...if we all agree that ramping up mileage while adding intensity is a bad idea, why is the program having Chief doing that?
MAC_32
Footballguy
This is where @SteelCurtain makes sense of it, but I've never understood it either. Build the volume base prior to plan, fudge the beginning stages of the plan to stick to the principles but with more mileage, then ride out the plan beginning somewhere midstream - but still adding WU/CD mileage to the long's late in the cycle. If I had done a "strict" hanson's that's what I would have actually done and my understanding is that's what Steel did. He can correct me if I'm wrong though.
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ChiefD
Footballguy
The Iguana
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
Zasada
Footballguy
Never having run a marathon, and only having run one race in my life I can't be considered to be a good source of advice for paces, speeds, etc.
But over the last 18 months from couch to HM I have had quite a bit of success setting goals and meeting them. So maybe I have a shred of credibility about that.
For me the trick was realistic goals. I ran my (first and only) HM in 1:47:36 in November. And using exactly the same race calculator you did, I "should" be able to run a full marathon in 3:44:20.
But I have never run that distance before and I have absolutely zero illusions of hitting that mark in my first attempt. My primary goal is to just finish (which you have done) and my bonus goal is to run less than 4 hours. I have no idea how that race calculator is intended but I have to think that it is intended to be for runners with experience at most/all of the distances listed. I have to think it's crazy for me to be an "equivalent" runner at 26.2 as I am at 13.1, given that I have run the latter distance many times in training and the former distance never.
Setting unrealistic goals results in exactly the situation you're in now. You're thinking about giving-up entirely because you don't think you can hit them. That's self-defeating, and results in even more regression and possibly quitting.
If anything, I think I might set my goals too easy. But it keeps me motivated. If I hit a goal early in the season then I set a new one. Hell, I even set a new goal mid-race during my HM because it was clear I had my <2hr goal hit 5km before the finish line. I could have just walked the rest of the way and hit that goal but I said #### it and went for 1:50. That's like playing with house money.
But if I set an unrealistic goal I'm not even going to try in the first place.
TL;DR: Go for sub-4hrs and leave the lower mark for a subsequent race.
My two cents.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
The Iguana
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
The race director has reviewed your strava footage and revoked some of your mileage.
Please hand back the medal.
ChiefD
Footballguy
jb1020
Footballguy
@ChiefD I'm likely the most inexperienced runner here so I never see fit to give advice, I'm more like a sponge here. You've been putting out a ton of work the past year, you'd be crazy not to see it thru. Take a day off when you're worn out. My guess is the the payoff is coming.
I dread the heat and humidity of the summer months, but like others have said I feel like I'm a "smoother" runner on an 80 degree Mississippi morning than on a 35 January morning.
I dread the heat and humidity of the summer months, but like others have said I feel like I'm a "smoother" runner on an 80 degree Mississippi morning than on a 35 January morning.
JAA
Footballguy
I dont know much about those plans, but do they have rest weeks? From your writing above, it sounds like you are overdoing and your body needs to recouping.I am having serious doubts today about completing this marathon cycle.
When I threw my hat in the ring last spring, it was to take advantage of a ridiculously inexpensive marathon sign-up, with the thought process that I would give this a try. With the health stuff, there was always going to be a question if I could pull this off. As of today I am not sure I can. Here are the reasons:
1. I am seeing virtually no gains over the last 3 months. I thought I would see a boost when the weather changed in the fall, but I was seeing similar pace to heart rate results even when the weather cooled down. This is not happening, even with ideal weather conditions this winter. I could not have asked for better training weather.
2. I checked my paces at this point in my training vs my 2016 Chicago build-up. I am either right at or even slightly slower than I was at that time. And that cycle was in the middle of a brutally humid summer here in KC. This is very discouraging, especially with the great temps I have been getting.
3. I am certainly running more speed work this cycle than I ever have.
4. Every workout, and I mean EVERY workout, is hard. Meaning my perceived effort is on the difficult side. For example, my 5 miles at MP tonight was hard. My heart rate was in the 170's, which is normally HM rate for me.
Now, I know the Hanson plan is designed for cumulative fatigue, so I get that I should expect to be tired. But 7 weeks in I expect to see some gains in pace relative to HR. Now, I also understand that it's possible I have set my goal too high. BUT, I am basing my training paces on the running calculator chart that the Hanson plan suggests. I based it off of my spring HM of 1:51. So I've tried to use those recommended paces as my paces for these workouts.
Now, I also understand that this is supposed to be hard. I am ok with that and expect hard work to produce results. And unfortunately, I am not seeing any right now. I would think after 7 weeks I would see small victories.
And all I see, and this is also based on a lot of data from two previous marathon cycles, is that I am in no better shape than I was then. Maybe even worse. And I'm not running this race to run a 4:30 again. That's not why I am attempting this again.
So I am seriously considering aborting this attempt. I don't know if the stomach stuff has affected other parts of my body - maybe my ability to build endurance and speed. I don't know. I do know that I am having zero symptoms otherwise. My diet has been balanced (a few more calories of course), and I have had zero stomach and colon flare ups since I started.
Everything feels good except my paces and heart rates. I am just working way too hard in terms of perceived effort. I don't think I can get there.
Damitol.
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