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Boycott Indiana? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter CowboysFromHell
- Start date
The Commish
Footballguy
I don't know the "anti-gay" side really well, but is this what it's reduced to? What they do in the bedroom? This question comes up in these threads all the time and I don't get it. Everything I read about is how it's a disadvantage not to have both a male and female parent, the societal pressures etc. I've always laughed at the "social pressures" circular argument. Gets me every time. I rarely, if ever, hear objections based on the sex part. I hear people talking about making out in public, and I get that as I don't really like anyone making out in public...doesn't matter if it's two dudes, two chicks, a dude and a unicorn, a dude and a chick, whatever.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Because the truth is... "against people who are different then me." All the other spew is simple subterfuge.
njherdfan
Footballguy
Do you not see the difference between the two bolded items? There's no obligation for anyone to support gay marriage. The only places where there have been issues with people like florists being fined is in states that have made gay people a protected class. Clearly that's not happening in Indiana anytime soon. However, this law very well might make it possible for a restaurant owner to refuse to serve lunch to a gay couple. That has nothing to do with gay marriage. That's okay with you?
jonessed
Footballguy
It goes against many religions. Whether you agree or disagree, the rationale behind a religious freedom law should be rather obvious.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Personally, I don't think much of Hoosiers neither.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
And it makes them feel better about their bigotry when they can say people choose to be gay.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
I think in most cases it's a nature/nurture combination, but I also know people who are permanently experimenting. I believe there's a cultural influence sometimes (ironically, they do to) that extends beyond childhood. It's hard to be definitive with regard to something as complex as sexual identity.
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squistion
Footballguy
Keith Olbermann @KeithOlbermann ·
SPECIAL COMMENT: NCAA must move Final 4 out of Indianapolis, to begin a rollback of homophobic laws nationwide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QeLY7Jwwo0&feature=youtu.be
SPECIAL COMMENT: NCAA must move Final 4 out of Indianapolis, to begin a rollback of homophobic laws nationwide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QeLY7Jwwo0&feature=youtu.be
jonessed
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
The Chick-Fil-A example is rather irrelevant in the context it was brought up, which is whether or not it would be OK for some local business in podunk Texas to serve only white people. There are plenty of little rural towns where a "white's only" sign would attract more business than it repelled, to which Commish retorted that national and/or social media pressure would take care of it, just like it did for Chick-Fil-A.Apparently not GB
Of course Chick-Fil-A caved to national pressure, they're a national chain. The notion that some diner in podunk Texas is going to care what a bunch of Californians on Facebook are saying about them when business is booming at home is naive at best.
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
Probably why I don't think we should have these "religious freedom" laws at all. Typically, they claim to be about religious freedom, but in effect, they are all about imposing a particular religion on others.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Two things here.
1) One doesn't have to inflict physical harm to someone to be a bigot any more than one has to lynch someone up and hang them from a tree to be a racist. Saying "I hate n******" or not thinking black people have the right to drink from the same water fountain as everyone else is racist in the same way that someone picketing gay funerals or not thinking gay people should have the same rights as everyone else is a biggot.
2) We're not just talking about people talking here. We're talking about actual civil liberties being restricted because of sexual preference. Yes, this stuff IS actually affecting the day to day life of gay people via them not being allowed to marry and now, not being served at certain establishments. "All men are created equal" means gay men too, and giving them 90% of civil liberties is no more equal than giving black people 90% of civil liberties. If I'm not mistaken, the Indiana law literally makes it legal for establishments to require that gay people drink from a separate water fountain or for a bus company to require that gay people ride in the back of the bus.
Some time in the not too distant future people that hid behind the phrase "I have the right to my opinion" will be looked at with no less disgust than people that hid behind the same phrase to justify their racism against black people or their misogyny against women in the past.
Sure, you have the right to that opinion. And everyone else has the right to label someone a bigot and look at them with disgust for having it. Like anything else, opinions are the basis for bigotry, racism, and misogyny. The right to have an opinion does not preclude you from being judged for holding that opinion.
jonessed
Footballguy
Again, I don't think it's that definitive. There's always going to be a grey area with regard to religion, what's impeding on religion vs. what's religion impeding on someone else.
I certainly don't believe we should ditch all laws supporting freedom of religion.
squistion
Footballguy
They broke up, so you probably won't be hearing from them. However to fill that void if your life, here is something you can watch instead:
George Takei @GeorgeTakei ·
TUNE IN ALERT: I will be on @MSNBC tonight at 10PM EST on @TheLastWord to discuss #BoycottIndiana
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Will be interesting to see whether they also cancel their Pitchfork fest show in Chicago this summer.WILCOVerified account@Wilco
We're canceling our 5/7 show in Indianapolis. “Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act” feels like thinly disguised legal discrimination.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
The Commish
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I really don't get this argument at all especially as it applies to Chick-Fil-A. It was suggested that it didn't hurt them financially. They didn't have to change from a pure business perspective. They still changed, which was the point. And no, the bold is not why it was brought up. There is a disagreement as to whether caving to public pressure is a legit way to change policy. Some, like myself say it is. Others like pantagrapher think the way it's going to change is through legislation. I brought up CFA as an example of why I think peer pressure works. The "yeah, but would it work in a town of racists in the middle of nowhere?" shtick came later. If we can stop attacking the strawman and move on, I'll acknowledge there are always exceptions to the rule....even in this case.The Chick-Fil-A example is rather irrelevant in the context it was brought up, which is whether or not it would be OK for some local business in podunk Texas to serve only white people. There are plenty of little rural towns where a "white's only" sign would attract more business than it repelled, to which Commish retorted that national and/or social media pressure would take care of it, just like it did for Chick-Fil-A.Apparently not GB
Of course Chick-Fil-A caved to national pressure, they're a national chain. The notion that some diner in podunk Texas is going to care what a bunch of Californians on Facebook are saying about them when business is booming at home is naive at best.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
And every one of their other shows in the US where states have similar laws.Will be interesting to see whether they also cancel their Pitchfork fest show in Chicago this summer.
We're canceling our 5/7 show in Indianapolis. “Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act” feels like thinly disguised legal discrimination.
I personally think the Indiana solution is to amend the protected status to include sexual orientation, keep the law and then everyone is happy and the ones that aren't are frankly hypocrites.
squistion
Footballguy
Not true, this is broader than any of those laws.http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/30/3640374/big-lie-media-tells-indianas-new-religious-freedom-law/And every one of their other shows in the US where states have similar laws.Will be interesting to see whether they also cancel their Pitchfork fest show in Chicago this summer.
We're canceling our 5/7 show in Indianapolis. Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act feels like thinly disguised legal discrimination.
The Big Lie The Media Tells About Indianas New Religious Freedom Law
On Friday, the Washington Post published an article titled 19 states that have religious freedom laws like Indianas that no one is boycotting. The article snarks about organizations like the NCAA that have protested Indianas law, noting the NCAA didnt say it was concerned over how athletes and employees would be affected by Kentuckys RFRA when games were played there last week. The piece concludes Indiana might be treated as if its the only state with a bill like this, but its not. The piece has been shared over 75,000 times on Facebook.
The Washington Post article largely mirrors the argument advanced by Indiana Governor Mike Pence. Appearing on ABCs This Week, Pence claimed Then state-Sen. Barack Obama voted for [the Religious Freedom Restoration Act]. The very same language.
The same argument is parroted on Fox News and elsewhere.
Its not true.
The Indiana law differs substantially from the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, signed by President Clinton in 1993, and all other state RFRAs.
There are several important differences in the Indiana bill but the most striking is Section 9. Under that section, a person (which under the law includes not only an individual but also any organization, partnership, LLC, corporation, company, firm, church, religious society, or other entity) whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened can use the law as a claim or defense regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.
Every other Religious Freedom Restoration Act applies to disputes between a person or entity and a government. Indianas is the only law that explicitly applies to disputes between private citizens.* This means it could be used as a cudgel by corporations to justify discrimination against individuals that might otherwise be protected under law. Indiana trial lawyer Matt Anderson, discussing this difference, writes that the Indiana law is more broadly written than its federal and state predecessors and opens up the path of least resistance among its species to have a court adjudicate it in a manner that could ultimately be used to discriminate
This is not a trivial distinction. Arizona enacted an RFRA that applied to actions involving the government in 2012. When the state legislature tried to expand it to purely private disputes in 2014, nationwide protests erupted and Jan Brewer, Arizonas Republican governor, vetoed the measure.
Thirty law professors who are experts in religious freedom wrote in February that the Indiana law does not mirror the language of the federal RFRA and will create confusion, conflict, and a wave of litigation that will threaten the clarity of religious liberty rights in Indiana while undermining the states ability to enforce other compelling interests. This confusion and conflict will increasingly take the form of private actors, such as employers, landlords, small business owners, or corporations, taking the law into their own hands and acting in ways that violate generally applicable laws on the grounds that they have a religious justification for doing so. Members of the public will then be asked to bear the cost of their employers, their landlords, their local shopkeepers, or a police officers private religious beliefs.
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
Without religion, would we be having this argument? i.e. what is the non-religious justification to fight so hard against people being gay?
SWC
Bromigo
larooshes have been using religion to justify bigotry and racism for a long time hey this is not anything new and i will not post a lot in this thread because this sort of crap makes me so mad but long story short brohans god did not say hate he did not say say treat some differently he did not say use your status to look down on others who are different just so you feel better about your scared little self what he said is love and brohans that is all he said and the rest is just us humans mucking it up and if we all got back to the love part we would be a whole hell of a lot better off than we are and crap like this would not happen take that to the bank
McGarnicle
Footballguy
Sucks for their fans who were looking forward to the show, 99% of whom probably find the law abhorrent too. They should've played the show and donated the proceeds to local gay rights groups.Will be interesting to see whether they also cancel their Pitchfork fest show in Chicago this summer.
We're canceling our 5/7 show in Indianapolis. “Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act” feels like thinly disguised legal discrimination.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Now that Indiana finally has religious freedom, how soon till they get freedom of speech?
joffer
Footballguy
not sure if this is bs or not
https://mobile.twitter.com/markalesia/status/582729433607376896/photo/1
https://mobile.twitter.com/markalesia/status/582729433607376896/photo/1
Amused to Death
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
So Indiana's law ISN'T actually like the other 19 states?
squistion
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I'm afraid I can't get onboard with the extreme leap that you think national criticism of a national brand that very much cares about its national reputation would extrapolate to little local shops that could give two ****s about their national reputation.
This isn't some one-off thing. Rural right wing white America makes up a very large percentage of this country's population and there would be plenty of support for "white only" stores in many places throughout the country. We'd have little racist cities and little black-only cities and little no-gays-allowed cities and little gay-only cities all over the place. That is not a recipe for any kind of good and if you think otherwise I challenge you to look up the history of places like Colorado City and people like Rulon Jeffs that tried the same with fundamentalist beliefs and take a look at how well that worked out.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
I like how everywhere we see conservatives/republicans arguing (because all other attempts hold no water) that it is okay, or should be okay, for public businesses to discriminate based on religion/sex.
But those cons/repubs in direct political control of the situation refuse to make such honest statements.
But those cons/repubs in direct political control of the situation refuse to make such honest statements.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Indiana is the Bigot State
McGarnicle
Footballguy
It's not surprising that the bigotry exists, but what I find mind-boggling is the tone deafness. The Christian right has lost this battle, but some of them clearly don't know it yet. It would seem much wiser to concede this issue, rather than forfeit all credibility and probably doom yourself for the next election.
timschochet
Footballguy
Heard Jeb Bush on the radio tonight. He firmly supports the Indiana law and Governor Pence.
ETA- this is the "centrist" candidate for the Republicans.
ETA- this is the "centrist" candidate for the Republicans.
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Amused to Death
Footballguy
I'm kinda surprised at Jeb commenting in favor of it. Not so much about Ted Cruz' comments:
"I want to commend Governor Mike Pence for his support of religious freedom, especially in the face of fierce opposition. There was a time, not too long ago, when defending religious liberty enjoyed strong bipartisan support. Alas, today we are facing a concerted assault on the First Amendment, on the right of every American to seek out and worship God according to the dictates of his or her conscience," Cruz said. "Governor Pence is holding the line to protect religious liberty in the Hoosier State. Indiana is giving voice to millions of courageous conservatives across this country who are deeply concerned about the ongoing attacks upon our personal liberties. I'm proud to stand with Mike, and I urge Americans to do the same."
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
So Jeb is a bigot like your boy Mitt, huh?
They should rename this law the Indiana KooK Bigot Law.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
First Church of Cannabis takes advantage of Indiana’s new ‘religious freedom’ law
Marijuana is currently illegal in Indiana for both medical and recreational use. However, the new Religious Freedom Restoration Act prevents state government from “substantially burdening” a person’s exercise of religion, and The First Church of Cannabis has just been officially recognized by Indiana’s Secretary of State.
Marijuana is currently illegal in Indiana for both medical and recreational use. However, the new Religious Freedom Restoration Act prevents state government from “substantially burdening” a person’s exercise of religion, and The First Church of Cannabis has just been officially recognized by Indiana’s Secretary of State.
timschochet
Footballguy
Here's Jeb:
"I think Governor Pence has done the right thing,” said Mr. Bush, who is expected to run for president in 2016. “I think once the facts are established, people aren’t going to see this as discriminatory at all.”
Mr. Bush told Mr. Hewitt that the Indiana law was about “simply allowing people of faith space to be able to express their beliefs.”
“There are many cases where people acting on their conscience have been castigated by the government,” Mr. Bush said. “This is really an important value for our country, in a diverse country,where you can be tolerant of people’s lifestyles but allow people of faith to exercise theirs.”
"I think Governor Pence has done the right thing,” said Mr. Bush, who is expected to run for president in 2016. “I think once the facts are established, people aren’t going to see this as discriminatory at all.”
Mr. Bush told Mr. Hewitt that the Indiana law was about “simply allowing people of faith space to be able to express their beliefs.”
“There are many cases where people acting on their conscience have been castigated by the government,” Mr. Bush said. “This is really an important value for our country, in a diverse country,where you can be tolerant of people’s lifestyles but allow people of faith to exercise theirs.”
krista4
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Yet tonight on a Fox News they repeated the lie that there is "no significant difference" between this law and the other 19 or the federal one. And people believe it.
chauncey
Footballguy
I can't believe they would pass a law giving people/businesses permission to discriminate against others. At least in these modern times when the bigoted businesses start discriminating against others we will be able to document it and spread it around the world in hours with social media. Everyone will know their name. It seems wrong to punish the entire state now for the potential hatred of a small minority though.
Did anyone include Indiana as part of the deep south?
Did anyone include Indiana as part of the deep south?
