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Another killing at the hands of the Police


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43 minutes ago, shader said:

The tragic killing in Minneapolis seems like a spark that lit on an unemployed population.  Maybe three months ago they would have gotten angry on twitter but gone to bed because they had work the next day.  When you’re out of work, you have less to lose.

Certainly there are many factors here, but it’s one I feel isn’t talked about enough.

I just want to say I agree with this. It’s a cascading series of unintended consequences. This is happening in the mix of near 20% unemployment and extreme stress.

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3 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I just want to say I agree with this. It’s a cascading series of unintended consequences. This is happening in the mix of near 20% unemployment and extreme stress.

Yep.  There’s a reason 20% unemployment is a very bad number and it’s not just because it makes the stock market go down.

Edited by shader
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1 hour ago, SayWhat? said:

Pretty ####### depressing when your five year old daughter picks up enough from what’s going on to say “daddy, I don’t want the fires in Minneapolis and St. Paul to come to __________ (our suburb right next door).  I’m scared.”  

 

 

I had my 12 and 9 year old watch the news a bit last night w/me and my wife. We live in a SW burb. 
 

The 9 year old said ‘dad this isn’t very far away is our neighborhood ok?  What about moms business?’

I think it’s good for them to see this but damn it’s sad when it’s your city. 
 

And it’s even more frustrating when people try to use these situations to make political points. Especially posters in this thread who live here. Not the time but not surprising. 

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Several solidarity protests are planned for today in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale. The Instagram post my daughter sent me about the protest in Coral Gables lists rules, including bring signs, wear white, be united, bring water, no weapons, no violence, wear a mask. Let's hope the rules are followed.

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49 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

So kneeling is bad.  BLM is bad.  Rioting is bad.

What is the "right" way to protest the execution of black people live on camera with no charges forthcoming?

No they did great yesterday, gained tons of sympathizers, keep up the good work 👍

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39 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

In what way is this a gift for Trump?

A person opening up their business is more likely to get arrested in a blue state than somebody looting one. Not like President Trump needed any more gift though, he already has Joe Biden and will win easily.

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3 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

No they did great yesterday, gained tons of sympathizers, keep up the good work 👍

I don't think sympathy is the goal.

Systemic change is...

Im not condoning violence or looting...I still don't understand how it helps.  But I also don't understand how it feels to live where Id fear going for a walk or a run...or fear that my son going out to watch a sunrise or sunset, fearing that someone confronts him and it ends poorly.  If I see bluelights in my rearview mirror my fear is of getting a ticket...not of death.   There have been many peaceful protests over a lot of injustices...and change didn't come.  I may not understand the looting and burning of things...but I understand that there is frustration that boils over when just standing or kneeling gets nothing done over and over again.

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5 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

No they did great yesterday, gained tons of sympathizers, keep up the good work 👍

Did you know there’s no such thing as a single ‘they’ right?  

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8 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

And it’s even more frustrating when people try to use these situations to make political points. Especially posters in this thread who live here. Not the time but not surprising. 

I sympathize, truly. But it's not trying to make political points when one is trying to point out the politics that led to the events.

When the mantra is repeated over and over again that "well peaceful means of change were attempted repeatedly but 'none of you' worked hard enough to change anything" it needs to be pointed out who it was that was responsible to make those changes and failed.  

Right now I'm listening to the Governor, Mayor Frey, and Mayor Carter (Saint Paul) say "we need to make some changes". I'm with you guys...but what's the plan and how is it any different from the plan you've had up to this point?

I think we begin with the idea that law and order must be maintained always -  even if and probably especially when - there are elements of the law and order arm that themselves have allegedly broken the law leading to a breakdown of law and order. But I'm open to ideas that a 48 year old white male suburbanite can implement.

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10 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

No they did great yesterday, gained tons of sympathizers, keep up the good work 👍

 

4 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

Did you know there’s no such thing as a single ‘they’ right?  

Yeah, they're finding that many (maybe even most) of the vandals and thieves that are tearing up the neighborhoods are actually NOT from those neighborhoods. 

It's pretty clear that, like most people on both sides here have said, that there's a group of protesters and a group of criminals - and they're two absolutely distinct groups. 

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48 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

I’ll guess most police in big cities aren’t tied to the communities they work in . There is no connection to the people that live there.  This has to be is a big issue with good and bad cops

Then everyone needs retraining.

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22 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I sympathize, truly. But it's not trying to make political points when one is trying to point out the politics that led to the events.

When the mantra is repeated over and over again that "well peaceful means of change were attempted repeatedly but 'none of you' worked hard enough to change anything" it needs to be pointed out who it was that was responsible to make those changes and failed.  

Right now I'm listening to the Governor, Mayor Frey, and Mayor Carter (Saint Paul) say "we need to make some changes". I'm with you guys...but what's the plan and how is it any different from the plan you've had up to this point?

I think we begin with the idea that law and order must be maintained always -  even if and probably especially when - there are elements of the law and order arm that themselves have allegedly broken the law leading to a breakdown of law and order. But I'm open to ideas that a 48 year old white male suburbanite can implement.

I’m on the same page with you. But there are people in this thread who apparently want to governor Walz to put on a Superman cape and fly down into the middle of the rioters and stop them immediately. 
 

The DFL seems to have failed inner cities for a long time and I’m sympathetic to the idea that maybe more than lipservice needs to go towards solving these systemic issues. As a business owner I’m also extremely sympathetic to the people who are losing their livelihoods due to the rioters and arsonist who have no concern for the actual underlying challenges they’re just using this as an opportunity to cause destruction and steal property.

But, entire communities don’t react like this just because they’re bad communities. We have to wrestle with the fact that they have been dealing with generations of inequality and lack of ability to create long-term wealth and educational legacies. It’s easy to look at people who look and act differently than us and think that they have a different set of rules that they abide by but one of the greatest lessons I’ve ever learned is that for the most part, people are people and we all react similarly to different stressors, incentives and can become conditioned over time. We need to not only listen to the protesters but also seek to understand why a portion of the community thinks that rioting and looting is OK. Some of them are just opportunist but there’s also a pretty significant built up anger that I think many of us white suburban guys simply have never taken the time to try to understand before.

Edited by mr roboto
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22 hours ago, Challenge Everything said:

- 1773 - Boston Tea Party = taxation bad... no representation... government won't listen... we riot

- 1786 - Shay's Rebellion = taxation bad... commerce taxes bad... economic injustice bad... civil rights injustice bad... we riot

- 1786 - Paper Money Riot = war good... debt bad... stimulate economy print money good... we riot

- 1791-1794 - Whiskey Rebellion = taxation bad... government overreach bad... American nationalism good... we riot

- 1831 - Nat Turner's Slave Rebellion = state execution of slaves good... murders of slaves good... prohibit education of slaves good... government oppression good (as in tyranny against black / lower class people)

- 1837 - Murder of Elijah Lovejoy = pro-slavery good... abolitionist bad... we riot

- 1859 - John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry = slave revolt bad... Marines shutting down riot good... civil war precursor bad?

- 1861-1865 American Civil War = still being fought today bad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States

I'll let each of you decide where you fall with the above however, once again, when there is injustice to the citizenry, or government overreach, or civil injustice, somehow, depending on which side you fall, rioting it good. When you happen to be on the side that is doing the injustices, rioting is bad, equality is bad. It is difficult, imo, to argue that the Boston Tea Party was bad... or Shay's Rebellion was bad... or the Paper Money Riot was bad... or the Whiskey Rebellion was bad... or Nat Turner's Rebellion was bad... or the John Brown's raid was bad... or the Civil War was bad... but I implore anyone to argue that either of these riots, overall, was a bad thing that happened.

Anyone want to argue that the Murder of Elijah Lovejoy was good or any of the above were bad? Please do so.

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2 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

They're estimating that 80% of rioters in Minneapolis are from out of town. How far out (different MN city?, different state?), they didn't say. 

This wouldn’t surprise me. That community around Lake Street is impoverished but there’s also a fairly vibrant business scene and I wouldn’t expect community members to want to burn down their business district.

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25 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

Guess all that anger, teeth gnashing and pulling of hair of Kaepernicks kneeling seems kind of silly now....doesn't it?  I think we'd all agree that peaceful, respectful kneeling for a couple of seconds on a Sun. afternoon beats this...wouldn't we?

I never cared who kneeled but how did that kneeling protest work out for Mr. Floyd? During that time people were still getting beat and shot by police as nothing changed.  People can kneel all they want on TV as that is the easy part.  The hard part is on the actual streets.  Kneeling does nothing to prevent what happens in the streets every day.

Edited by Summer Wheat
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3 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

They're estimating that 80% of rioters in Minneapolis are from out of town. How far out (different MN city?, different state?), they didn't say. 

The St. Paul mayor just said that everyone arrested in his city last night was from out of state.

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Also, if any of you who are complaining about the physical violence and looting  but saying protesting is OK, I sure hope if we go through your posting history that you were in favor of the kneeling at NFL games and other types of nonviolent protest that tried to draw attention to the discrepancies in policing between white and black communities.

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2 hours ago, fantasycurse42 said:

For all I hate about him, I’ll admit he’s good at dividing and firing people up. How is he going to use lawlessness, property damage, looting, etc to fire up a group? Well, he’s going to claim anger about the media, he’s going to say that this was all actions by the Democrats and their followers, and he’s going to fire his base up. CV19 won’t even be on the agenda if this keeps up. I can keep going, but hopefully you get the idea.

The fact that some people don’t see how he’ll use it just speaks to how good he is at this stuff. That’s not a dig at any of them, sadly he’s a master at this stuff :kicksrock:

Not sure this plays well outside of his base.

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1 minute ago, mr roboto said:

Also, if any of you who are complaining about the physical violence and looting  but saying protesting is OK, I sure hope if we go through your posting history that you were in favor of the kneeling at NFL games and other types of nonviolent protest that tried to draw attention to the discrepancies in policing between white and black communities.

Also, how many posters or others not on the boards or even commentators have said they will revolt, riot, call to arms, this November if Trump loses, or elections are in question, or things don't go their way. It's all okay when the shoe is on the other foot.

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2 minutes ago, caustic said:

The St. Paul mayor just said that everyone arrested in his city last night was from out of state.

Saw a lot of internet rumors that these people had their bail paid for them and a lawyer already lined up for everyone arrested. 

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9 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

They're estimating that 80% of rioters in Minneapolis are from out of town. How far out (different MN city?, different state?), they didn't say. 

What do they base this on?  If you have tangible data, like cellphone pings or something, I'll listen, if its well over the baseline I'll entertain it

And if it IS outsiders, then all the more reason to protect your damn city... this is some of most namby pamby nonsense leadership I've ever seen, the Minny Mayor is your introduction to Milienal leadership

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2 minutes ago, Challenge Everything said:

Also, how many posters or others not on the boards or even commentators have said they will revolt, riot, call to arms, this November if Trump loses, or elections are in question, or things don't go their way. It's all okay when the shoe is on the other foot.

Posters here have said that?

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2 minutes ago, Challenge Everything said:

Also, how many posters or others not on the boards or even commentators have said they will revolt, riot, call to arms, this November if Trump loses, or elections are in question, or things don't go their way. It's all okay when the shoe is on the other foot.

Yup.  

I remember the 2016 rhetoric on Facebook.... "If She Wins....We Revolt" with pictures of armed people and such.  

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7 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

Also, if any of you who are complaining about the physical violence and looting  but saying protesting is OK, I sure hope if we go through your posting history that you were in favor of the kneeling at NFL games and other types of nonviolent protest that tried to draw attention to the discrepancies in policing between white and black communities.

That actually would be somebody like me, but even if I had been mad about Kaepernick protesting, that wouldn't disqualify me from saying political protest on public grounds is a fundamental right whereas Kaepernick exercised his actions in a private market, albeit in a public setting. It's such a huge difference that I can't believe the obtuseness that goes into writing something like that.

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1 hour ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

So kneeling is bad.  BLM is bad.  Rioting is bad.

What is the "right" way to protest the execution of black people live on camera with no charges forthcoming?

Don't disturb the military, the anthem, traffic, tv viewers, church goers, weapon purchasers or any one, really. In fact if you could protest so no one notices or cares, that would be appreciated. TIA

:sarcasm:

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7 minutes ago, msommer said:

Not sure this plays well outside of his base.

He’s going to blame this on Democrats, CNN, fake news, deep state, etc etc in the hopes of gaining undecideds. I read his twitter just to get an idea of how he wants to spin things. Honestly, if someone is still undecided, sadly I believe his strategy could work.

The true problem with those protesting (and this goes for any protest) is that they struggle to have a clear message, lack organization, leadership, goals, demands, and they’re easily infiltrated by criminals. It’s almost always too much to overcome and execute. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Blick said:

I wonder how much different the last few nights would have gone if a true grass roots movement would have been allowed to take place without the influence of agitators like ANTIFA and others. 

why even call them ANTIFA, call them by their real name, communists. 

 

Btw, if you look at the riot videos in almost every one of them, its a white communist that breaks the first window.

Edited by giantcookie
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4 minutes ago, rockaction said:

That actually would be somebody like me, but even if I had been mad about Kaepernick protesting, that wouldn't disqualify me from saying political protest on public grounds is a fundamental right whereas Kaepernick exercised his actions in a private market, albeit in a public setting. It's such a huge difference that I can't believe the obtuseness that goes into writing something like that.

I’m not gonna respond in kind but my question to you is, do you really believe that most of the people who were against the NFL kneeling protests were against it before the nuanced reasons that you’ve alluded to in your post?  That their whole outrage was simply because this was being done within the confines of a private business?

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5 minutes ago, msommer said:

Don't disturb the military, the anthem, traffic, tv viewers, church goers, weapon purchasers or any one, really. In fact if you could protest so no one notices or cares, that would be appreciated. TIA

:sarcasm:

Except that everyone DID notice. Seems to me the end result was...ineffective. 

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I really want to see black america thrive and succeed.  I'm a white guy, but we've seen black people excel and rise across so many fields.  What's going on hasn't worked and we also know historically, rioting does not work, it does not change anything, its a money shot and its done.   I don't blame these people though, purely, its probably modeling behavior and it feels like your only recourse and as a young man I, and probably many of us here, had some kind of  a destruction phase.  Because when you're young, black or white, you get put in a car thats already rolling and you have no power, and you have no perspective of what takes an hour, or 1000 hours to build takes a minute to destroy.   THAT is power. 

But its futile and fruitless when you run out of things to burn.  You learn that with age I think.  So the real power comes in building, things, careers, a job, a family, a life.   So rioting, is a failed experiment. 

What I'd hope can be instilled is to take this energy of these young people to play the long game.  Because white America is probably scared by 10,000 black rioters.  But they'd be even more scared by 10,000 black lawyers and CEOs.

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While seeing the events unfold before our eyes is horrific and tragic, my hope is one day we celebrate these specific events, just like we already celebrate these events in our current past.

Call these events what you will, but history will eventually chose a word for them. If these people finally win and defeat the systemic racist culture that they've suffered from all their lives, and there parent, grand parents, and great grand parents suffered from before them, then history will call these events a "revolution". Today, some people are outraged by the destruction they are causing, but so was Ben Franklin:

Quote

LONDON, Feb. 2, 1774

Gentlemen: I received the Honour of your Letter dated Decr. 21, containing a distinct Account of the Proceedings at Boston relative to the Tea imported there, and of the Circumstances that occasioned its Destruction. I communicated the same to Lord Dartmouth, with some other Advices of the same import. It is yet unknown what Measures will be taken here on the Occasion; but the Clamour against the Proceedings is high and general. I am truly concern’d, as I believe all considerate Men are with you, that there should seem to any a Necessity for carrying Matters to such Extremity, as, in a Dispute about Publick Rights, to destroy private Property; This (notwithstanding the Blame justly due to those who obstructed the Return of the Tea) it is impossible to justify with People so prejudiced in favour of the Power of Parliament to tax America, as most are in this Country.

As the India Company however are not our Adversaries, and the offensive Measure of sending their Teas did not take its Rise with them, but was an Expedient of the Ministry to serve them and yet avoid a Repeal of the old Act, I cannot but wish & hope that before any compulsive Measures are thought of here, our General court will have shewn a Disposition to repair the Damage and make Compensation to the Company. This all our Friends here wish with me; and that if War is finally to be made upon us, which some threaten, an Act or violent injustice on our part, unrectified, may not give a colourable Pretence for it. A speedy Reparation will immediately set us right in the Opinion of all Europe. And tho’ the Mischief was the Act of Persons unknown, yet as probably they cannot be found or brought to answer for it, there seems to be some reasonable Claim on the Society at large in which it happened. Making voluntarily such Reparation can be no Dishonour to us or Prejudice to our Claim or Rights, since Parliament here has frequently considered in the same Light similar Cases; and only a few Years since, when a valuable Saw-mill, which had been destroyed by a Number of Persons supposed to be Sawyers, but unknown, a Grant was made out of the Publick Treasury of Two Thousand Pounds to the Owner as a Compensation—I hope in thus freely (and perhaps too forwardly) expressing my Sentiments & Wishes, I shall not give Offence to any. I am sure I mean well; being over with sincere Affection to my native Country, and great Respect to the Assembly and yourselves,

Gentlemen, Your most obedient and most humble Servant

B. FRANKLIN,

Honble Thomas Cushing, Sam’l Adams, John Hancock, William Phillips, Esquires.

Ben Franklin was being a gentleman in the words he chose in his letter to rectify the destruction that took place in the Boston Tea Party. If social media existed in the 1770's, words such as "thugs" and "looters" would have been common and frequent descriptions of those who committed the violent act. 

As we know from history, it escalated... in to all out war. Because England lost, it was labeled "The Revolutionary War". If England had won, it would probably be called "The Colonist's Riots" and those we deem today as being "Patriots and Forefathers" would instead be labeled as "thugs" and "rioters" and "criminals" and "traitors" and pretty much all the words being used today by those offended by this week's riots.

I hope today, that the rioters win. I hope today that they get what they want. This is there revolutionary war. This is their moment to fight against government oppression. Our forefathers revolted because of "taxation without representation". These people today are revolting because of systemic racism towards them. These people today are revolting because they are being murdered by their government. They are fighting for even more liberty than our forefathers fought for. I hope they win. They need to win. They must win. Our country is sick with racism that for whatever reason we can't seem to let go of without a revolution. 

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1 minute ago, giantcookie said:

why even call them ANTIFA, call them by their real name, communists. 

They're nihilists. 

Nihilism - Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Except that everyone DID notice. Seems to me the end result was...ineffective. 

I’m not so sure. Typically we aren’t going to change order peoples/generations opinions on social issues but the younger generations are way more sympathetic to racial inequality and injustice than previous generations and I do believe that it’s in part because of social media, celebrity culture speaking to it and protest like the NFL.

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Just now, mr roboto said:

I’m not gonna respond in kind but my question to you is, do you really believe that most of the people who were against the NFL kneeling protests were against it before the nuanced reasons that you’ve alluded to in your post?  That their whole outrage was simply because this was being done within the confines of a private business?

I went back and re-read that. I believe I intoned that position was obtuse. That's strong wording and I rescind it with apology. But to your question: Yes, I believe most people on this board can and do draw that distinction. They're literate, and somewhat nuanced, and the false dichotomy you posited is a gaping hole you can drive a truck through.

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2 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

I hope today, that the rioters win. I hope today that they get what they want. This is there revolutionary war. This is their moment to fight against government oppression. Our forefathers revolted because of "taxation without representation". These people today are revolting because of systemic racism towards them. These people today are revolting because they are being murdered by their government. They are fighting for even more liberty than our forefathers fought for. I hope they win. They need to win. They must win. Our country is sick with racism that for whatever reason we can't seem to let go of without a revolution. 

This is almost categorically untrue. What happened to you?

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2 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

I really want to see black america thrive and succeed.  I'm a white guy, but we've seen black people excel and rise across so many fields.  What's going on hasn't worked and we also know historically, rioting does not work, it does not change anything, its a money shot and its done.   I don't blame these people though, purely, its probably modeling behavior and it feels like your only recourse and as a young man I, and probably many of us here, had some kind of  a destruction phase.  Because when you're young, black or white, you get put in a car thats already rolling and you have no power, and you have no perspective of what takes an hour, or 1000 hours to build takes a minute to destroy.   THAT is power. 

But its futile and fruitless when you run out of things to burn.  You learn that with age I think.  So the real power comes in building, things, careers, a job, a family, a life.   So rioting, is a failed experiment. 

What I'd hope can be instilled is to take this energy of these young people to play the long game.  Because white America is probably scared by 10,000 black rioters.  But they'd be even more scared by 10,000 black lawyers and CEOs.

Good post, agree.  But I’m a white guy and want to know why I should be afraid of black lawyers and ceo’s.   Just trying to figure out if it’s something I need to start working against.

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10 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Everyone seems connected in this murder . Floyd/Chauvin worked in the same club , Thao stands around ho-hum as his brother in-law kills Floyd 

The two aren’t related (from what was mentioned yesterday).

Edited by Witz
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2 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I went back and re-read that. I believe I intoned that position was obtuse. That's strong wording and I rescind it with apology. But to your question: Yes, I believe most people on this board can and do draw that distinction. They're literate, and somewhat nuanced, and the false dichotomy you posited is a gaping hole you can drive a truck through.

I think you’re overestimating the nuance of the position but to each their own. I think most people who didn’t like those protests just didn’t like their football being interrupted by inconvenient truth about things that they themselves don’t feel like confronting. I’m not claiming that that’s your rationale but I do believe that that’s a vast majority.

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7 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

I’m not gonna respond in kind but my question to you is, do you really believe that most of the people who were against the NFL kneeling protests were against it before the nuanced reasons that you’ve alluded to in your post?  That their whole outrage was simply because this was being done within the confines of a private business?

Of course not. And I would wager anything that the vast majority of them didn’t do a damn thing to speak out and act against police brutality.

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7 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

He’s going to blame this on Democrats, CNN, fake news, deep state, etc etc in the hopes of gaining undecideds. I read his twitter just to get an idea of how he wants to spin things. Honestly, if someone is still undecided, sadly I believe his strategy could work.

 

Doubt those arguments strike home outside of his base, it's just a remix of his greatest hits and he's been losing support among independents and even the geriatric crowd with that already

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