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Another killing at the hands of the Police (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter In The Zone
- Start date
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't pretend to understand the "police abolition" position either. That's not an insult -- I've never gotten around to reading a defense of that position and it certainly isn't self-evident enough for me to steelman one out of thin air.
But I agree with you 100% on this one. The police don't need tanks, military-grade firearms, excessive body armor, etc. Defunding that stuff would be a very good first step. I'd also add in redesigning police uniforms so they aren't so menacing -- something more like what you see in the UK. No mirrored shades, or at least a regulation that sunglasses have to come off when you're speaking to a citizen. I'm becoming convinced that our police forces are attracting too many people who aren't really cut out for the military but who want to LARP as an Army ranger anyway. The result is the horse#### we're seeing all over social media.
Edit: Oh and this goes without saying, but also drug legalization.
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Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
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Lol...just your own eyes. I am not seeing a bunch of white nationalists looting stores. Yes, Baghdad Bob is telling us there is no evidence, and of course we turn off our brain and believe it because it is convenient to our beliefs. There is not one ounce of common sense being used. It is all about blaming the right-wing and excusing the left-wing thugs.
sho nuff
Footballguy
We have actual police reports saying it wasn't antifa or no evidence of it in DC...we have actual police telling us it was a white nationalist group in another city.
Seems using our eyes shows us there are both factions in these groups...and how would you know the difference between a white nationalist and a so called antifacist kid?
Nobody is just blaming the right wing and excusing the left...in fact, in this thread and seemingly in right wing media on up to POTUS and the AG, its the exact opposite. Blaming the left wing and excusing the right.
Seriously...what world is there that is excusing any of the left? Where? Who?
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I know you are a DPD Chief James Craig fan.
Craig wants Tlaib voted out. Tlaib took over from John Conyers and ran unopposed just as Conyers did for years. Only a small % of people even vote in her district so it does not take much in another candidate had backing.
I think Detroit dems will put a a primary candidate this time as Craigs opinions are very popular in the Detroit. In fact if he ran he would win in a landslide.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I'm not either, nor am I blaming it on them. Unlike the people (and the president) blaming it on a left-wing group without evidence.
We had years of alost entirely peaceful protests done by the Tea Party. But those people were ridiculed and endless attacked by the media and this forum. Now we have massive protests from the left leading to massive amounts of violence and the best the media can do is pretend there is no link. Lol. You can't make this stuff up. It is so utterly obscenely slanted and distorted. But yes, the MSM is very reliable in how they distort it.
squistion
Footballguy
You excuse it everyday by refusing to admit any fault or inconsistsncy from the left. There is no honesty here. It is all about an agenda.
whoknew
Footballguy
Yea I'm not a Tlaib fan either. If I lived in her district, I would vote against her.I know you are a DPD Chief James Craig fan.
Craig wants Tlaib voted out. Tlaib took over from John Conyers and ran unopposed just as Conyers did for years. Only a small % of people even vote in her district so it does not take much in another candidate had backing.
I think Detroit dems will put a a primary candidate this time as Craigs opinions are very popular in the Detroit. In fact if he ran he would win in a landslide.
I was just talking about the general "defund the police" movement. I think its more nuanced than just no more cops.
sho nuff
Footballguy
You literally are making things up here.
I don't believe tea party protests were just ridiculed for being protests...but there were factions of those protests that should have been ridiculed and attacked.
We have massive protests from the left? So anyone wanting change from the police and racial equality is on the left now? That is an interesting thought...pretty sad if that is true, that the right does not want those things.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Jon...myself and others have said over and over that there are radical leftists in these groups. We have said it every single day. It is not the left on this board saying it is only one side. That is squarely on a few people on the right, including you.
There is no inconsistency here...its in black and white for everyone to see. Over and over posters on this board have said its a mix of both extremists from the right and left.
The agenda is there though, that you are right about, you just fail to see its the ones pushing its all the left that have the agenda. Its POTUS and the AG calling one group a terrorist organization and portraying all the violence is coming from that one group.
You want to be honest...read what the people are here are really saying and honestly read it...because it is not honest at all to claim I excuse things every day and refuse to admit any fault from the left...that is absolutely false based on the things I have said time and time again.
The world where i see CNN, NBC, and NYT make headlines out of every tweet or arrest that is linked to the right or racists and pretend there is no evidence of left-wing involvement. They don't look for it or it they do see it, they ignore it the best they can.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Please link a few headlines. Absolutely no one is saying there's no left-wing involvement. No one. If you have evidence to contrary, please link it.
Widbil83
Footballguy
Right-wing protest....
MSM seeks out the worst elements and magnifies it to cast a bad light on the entire movement.
Left-wing protest....
MSM seeks out the best elements to rationalize and downplay all the violence.
That is 100 percent what happens. You csn either acknowledge this truth or you can continue your partisan ways.
We have had several people quote some police department in the last couple of pages alone saying there is no evidence of involvement from radical left-wing groups.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
This is why cable news distorts the mind and thought process. While midtown Manhattan was being trashed CNN, MSNBC did not mention it or have any live feeds. Then you turn on FOX and they have live feeds of looting, destruction and violence.
I get it that CNN and FOX want to control minds but what is happening is real.
This is the first time I have watched cable news in years, I know now why I stopped. It is not actual news at all. It is their view of how they want the news delivered to us.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Ok, thanks. Now please do me the courtesy of providing the evidence you claim exists. Police departments say there is none, show me the evidence they're missing. Please. Not rumors, not "use your eyes". Unless you think the police are in on the Antifa cover-up.
Jackstraw
Footballguy
Peaceful protests by the people that had all the power and all the money. That checks out. Violent protests by the people being abused, no power, no money, no prospects and not even an acknowledgment by the greater society that their issues are valid. That checks out. Not saying I support the violence but I can understand where it comes from.
formerfourdigit
Footballguy
https://tlaib.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-tlaib-statement-nationwide-george-floyd-protests
- Create emergency response teams made up of health and human services professionals to respond to instances where police presence may increase conflict
- Dismantle the system of mass incarceration and over-policing of communities
- Eliminate qualified immunity for police officers
- Establish a database and process for decertification of police officers who commit criminal activity
- Invest in our communities with resources to eradicate poverty, create opportunities for our neighbors to thrive, and to repair and heal communities
- Prohibit the militarization of police and redirect funding to community needs
- Restore disparate impact in the Civil Rights Act to ensure folks have a path to justice when their rights, liberties, and lives are denied and harmed
- Support legislation that would significantly limit the use of force to narrow circumstances and never as a first resort
whoknew
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
Protesting taxes and health care legislation vs protesting decades of police mistreatment and killing of black people
I hope we can see the difference
Jackstraw
Footballguy
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/06/04/protestspolice-and-pay-in-times-of-mass-unemployment/
Interesting article here about leverage the protestors have if they want to implement real change.
The protestors demographically are young, unemployed and out of school. Relatively no opportunity cost to stay on the streets.
States and municipalities are undegoing cataclysmic financial issues and paying law enforcement time and a half and double time in over time.
Protestors can stretch this thing out and while they can't win with force they can break governments back financially.
What reasonable people on both sides should do is recongnize this fact and hammer out some real codified changes in policy and law that would reflect real change.
This is more or less what happened in the summer of 1968.
I want to make a few assumptions and then follow them to some conclusions
Police officers are not cheap on an hourly basis
Police officers are really not cheap when they are getting time and a half or double time
Municipalities and states have massive COVID related revenue shortfalls at this time
Any new federal appropriations need to have Nancy Pelosi sign off on major elements.
Labor Force Participation rate has crashed in April and May due to COVID
There are a few leverage points right now that I see emerge from these assumptions.
The first is that cities and states are broke and they will need a second round of federal relief sometime soon. Federal anti-brutality policies can be a price tag. A well organized demand for anti-brutality measures will present Republicans with the choice to agree or block a bill that will put the Senate seat from Wyoming in play. Right now, the Republican Party is not getting hammered for a horrendous economy partially because the CARES Act for all of its flaws, has generated mass cash transfers that have smoothed out job losses for most people.
The second leverage point is time.
The opportunity cost to protest today is far lower than the opportunity cost to protest in June 2019. Huge swathes of 18-30 year olds are neither employed nor in class at the moment. Well organized, community led protests can stay in the streets for a long while. There is a huge pool of individuals where the current alternative for their time is Animal Crossing not work nor school. That same dynamic is not at play for city and state payrolls trying to pay police for eighty or hundred hour weeks for weeks on end.
If this assumption is true, then a potential strategy is to put further pressure on the budgets of municipalities whose police forces want to massively overreact. This means spreading out protests in time and space. If the police department is going to come down on 10 protesters with overwhelming numbers just like they are coming down on 100 or 1,000 protesters, spread out to multiple 10 person protests.
A corollary to this approach is for communities with large pro-basic humanity political control to not send their police forces outside of the community. Alexandria, Virginia police usually will assist Washington DC police for major events. Their political leadership has pulled Alexandria police out of the District and across the river. This makes the costs of repression higher within the district — given that the Feds are paying for a show of force, that won’t matter for DC but it will matter elsewhere. So if you are on a town or city council, denying repressive municipalities mutual aid to crush peaceful protests increases the direct fiscal costs of those actions.
These are some of the pressure points. I think time is on the side of protesters as state and local money won’t be available in quantities needed to fund mass repression.
Interesting article here about leverage the protestors have if they want to implement real change.
The protestors demographically are young, unemployed and out of school. Relatively no opportunity cost to stay on the streets.
States and municipalities are undegoing cataclysmic financial issues and paying law enforcement time and a half and double time in over time.
Protestors can stretch this thing out and while they can't win with force they can break governments back financially.
What reasonable people on both sides should do is recongnize this fact and hammer out some real codified changes in policy and law that would reflect real change.
This is more or less what happened in the summer of 1968.
I want to make a few assumptions and then follow them to some conclusions
Police officers are not cheap on an hourly basis
Police officers are really not cheap when they are getting time and a half or double time
Municipalities and states have massive COVID related revenue shortfalls at this time
Any new federal appropriations need to have Nancy Pelosi sign off on major elements.
Labor Force Participation rate has crashed in April and May due to COVID
There are a few leverage points right now that I see emerge from these assumptions.
The first is that cities and states are broke and they will need a second round of federal relief sometime soon. Federal anti-brutality policies can be a price tag. A well organized demand for anti-brutality measures will present Republicans with the choice to agree or block a bill that will put the Senate seat from Wyoming in play. Right now, the Republican Party is not getting hammered for a horrendous economy partially because the CARES Act for all of its flaws, has generated mass cash transfers that have smoothed out job losses for most people.
The second leverage point is time.
The opportunity cost to protest today is far lower than the opportunity cost to protest in June 2019. Huge swathes of 18-30 year olds are neither employed nor in class at the moment. Well organized, community led protests can stay in the streets for a long while. There is a huge pool of individuals where the current alternative for their time is Animal Crossing not work nor school. That same dynamic is not at play for city and state payrolls trying to pay police for eighty or hundred hour weeks for weeks on end.
If this assumption is true, then a potential strategy is to put further pressure on the budgets of municipalities whose police forces want to massively overreact. This means spreading out protests in time and space. If the police department is going to come down on 10 protesters with overwhelming numbers just like they are coming down on 100 or 1,000 protesters, spread out to multiple 10 person protests.
A corollary to this approach is for communities with large pro-basic humanity political control to not send their police forces outside of the community. Alexandria, Virginia police usually will assist Washington DC police for major events. Their political leadership has pulled Alexandria police out of the District and across the river. This makes the costs of repression higher within the district — given that the Feds are paying for a show of force, that won’t matter for DC but it will matter elsewhere. So if you are on a town or city council, denying repressive municipalities mutual aid to crush peaceful protests increases the direct fiscal costs of those actions.
These are some of the pressure points. I think time is on the side of protesters as state and local money won’t be available in quantities needed to fund mass repression.
I appreciate your perspective, but it is a silly characterization. Whiteness or blackness or liberal or conservative is not what determines who has 'all the power' and who has 'no power, no money, no prospects'. We live in a country where millions of poor blacks are able to rise out of poverty and move up into the middle class or even the elite class. There are also millions of poor whites who live in poverty.
To make the arguement you did is such a gross distortion of reality. There are tons of poor abused people on both sides. And there are tons of rich elites on both sides. Most of the protedtors on both sides are in the poor under class.
sho nuff
Footballguy
There have yet to be such arrests apparently...have any other media sources reported it?
Nearly every one of those have mentioned antifa as well...and have as often, if not more often mentioned that bs right wing groups.
Can you agree that Posobiec and Cernovich are not reliable? Redstate? American Thinker?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Obama’s Blind Spot on Police Unions and Police Abuse
Really, it's not just Obama's but practically everyone's. The TLDR version is this:
"If you really want to reform your local police, you don’t have to run for office. You have to vote against candidates — Republican, Democrat or other — who accept campaign cash or endorsements from the people they’re supposed to supervise, such as the men and women who run police unions."
Really, it's not just Obama's but practically everyone's. The TLDR version is this:
"If you really want to reform your local police, you don’t have to run for office. You have to vote against candidates — Republican, Democrat or other — who accept campaign cash or endorsements from the people they’re supposed to supervise, such as the men and women who run police unions."
sho nuff
Footballguy
Made donations to a group is not equal to saying his staff bailed out looters and rioters.
And those staff members should be possibly then be let go if they were doing things to condone violence .
squistion
Footballguy
And I completely agree with all you said before that.
sho nuff
Footballguy
So just flat out spin and refusal to address my actual post.
The violence was shown hon.
Can you admit your claims about me blaming just the tight wing were false? Can you admit both right and left wing extremists are involved in the violence we have seen?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
That's akin to what others I've read have said that these protests has morphed from just a race issue to one that also includes class. Which is probably right.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
So you're saying media outlets slant the news. That's nothing new. And please, don't make it out to be only the left does this. The right has a slew of radio hosts, networks, and on-line publications doing it just as much or more then the left. Let's be honest.
Jackstraw
Footballguy
Demographically speaking we are comparing older whites and younger people of color. Sure there are exceptions but I feel like the general tilt of each crowd would lean towards my characterization. Also you about screwed yourself into the ground bofsidzing there. There are massive differences between the two populations we are talking about. I mean a maga/tea party rally and a BLM rally are bascially the same folks? Come on mang.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Damage control..she made these comments 4 days ago and now after backlash her staff puts out this. Politics...
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Jackstraw
Footballguy
I'm good with that. Bout time one side fought back. Richest country in the world during the supposed best economy ever and the country seemed content with a permanently suffering undeclass.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
This is very true. There are more whites killed by police in Michigan than blacks.
The whites killed though are not your college educated rich neighbors or their kids though. They are unemployed rural kids, roofers, bar bouncers, long hours low paying jobs type of whites. So it is turning into class warfare as well.
sho nuff
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
Yes, there are rich elites that ar democrats and republicans. You know what there aren't though? Black people
96.1 percent of the 1.2 million households in the top one percent by income were white
That you seem to ignore this wealth gap, while unsurprising, is disappointing
the moops
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
It is the type of white people killed. When you look at all the people killed by police in the country and remove race..the backgrounds are pretty much the same. It is people who for the most part come from a lower income area, live in a higher crime area, and have more interactions with police.
So it is turning into a class warfare issue as well. There are many more disenchanted whites as well as you say due to population disparity.
This is drastically different than the initial claim you posted to get a reaction, but you know that.
mrip541
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
That's ok. It doesn't take away that these are good suggestions. And if she follows through and tries to get them enacted - who cares if her heart isn't into it?
Reminds me of when I used to make fun of Tim Tebow because he would go to hospitals or whatever to visit sick kids but always had a tv camera with him. One day I realized - who cares? He's actually doing it. Does it matter if he's doing it because he wants to help the kids, or because Jesus told him so, or because he wants publicity? He's actually visiting the kids. I'm not.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Of course, but so sick of political figures speaking before thinking just to inflame people.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost here (with some edits).
https://www.independent.org/events/transcript.asp?id=116
So I've been doing some reading about racism and I stumbled across this speech by Dr. Shelby Steele who is a black author and Standford Fellow. In the speech he discusses how institutions (and white peoples) guilt about racism is detrimental to the black community. He talks about "white guilt" and the "race card" and how the American Government created Civil Rights Laws and then Welfare Laws to disassociate the government from racism and legitimize it to the black community and talks about how detrimental some of those policies ended up being for those same communities and how institutions and people today continue with the notion "white guilt". Thought I'd throw this here because in the face of the riots/looting/protests it looks like the American Government is going to start discussing police reform which based on Dr. Steele's analysis of the other "white guilt" policies the Government has instituted may also have detrimental effects on the black community.
Interested to see what people think about Dr. Steele's positions.
https://www.independent.org/events/transcript.asp?id=116
So I've been doing some reading about racism and I stumbled across this speech by Dr. Shelby Steele who is a black author and Standford Fellow. In the speech he discusses how institutions (and white peoples) guilt about racism is detrimental to the black community. He talks about "white guilt" and the "race card" and how the American Government created Civil Rights Laws and then Welfare Laws to disassociate the government from racism and legitimize it to the black community and talks about how detrimental some of those policies ended up being for those same communities and how institutions and people today continue with the notion "white guilt". Thought I'd throw this here because in the face of the riots/looting/protests it looks like the American Government is going to start discussing police reform which based on Dr. Steele's analysis of the other "white guilt" policies the Government has instituted may also have detrimental effects on the black community.
Interested to see what people think about Dr. Steele's positions.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
Where i disagree with the idea the protesters have the power is ultimately I believe they are cutting off their noses to spite their face. Cities are sill going to fund the basics (including law enforcement) and the politician's pet projects, but the things that won't get funded will be the programs that are meant to benefit the underclass. Programs such as after school activities, free lunches, educational programs for minorities will be the first to go.
So stressing the pocketbooks of the local governments by continuing to protest just hurts the oppressed in the long run.
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