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Another killing at the hands of the Police (11 Viewers)

timschochet said:
No, the mainstream media is not a problem, 

You just wrote, correctly, that institutionalized racism won’t ever end while people don’t acknowledge that it exists. But far more people today DO acknowledge it as compared to 2 years ago. Because of George Floyd, and the other deaths which certain people here complain are “over reported”. They’re not over reported at all. Besides the fact that they are news, reporting them serves the positive purpose of waking people up To what’s happening. (That’s not why they are reported; the mainstream media does not report news with any political or cultural purpose in mind. But it does go to my argument that, far from being a problem, the mainstream media are a positive vehicle for good, exactly as Thomas Jefferson predicted.) 
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See i would disagree here.  they do.  Maybe not always and some networks more than others.  But there are some that do. 

Also my point was mostly about MSM and people using ONLY that to judge someone they have never met or interacted with.  That can be problematic.

If we fix some of these other issues, the problems people have with MSM will go away.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Isn't the media simply providing the product that consumers demand?  Would a greater supply of unbias media sources create its own demand?  Or do biased sources thrive simply because that is what consumers want?
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Absolutely. Consumers want their news fast, sensationalized and slanted to their viewpoint, regardless of how much they might claim otherwise.

And when we talk about “the media”, that could technically include anybody with a blog, podcast, or Twitter account. We generally use the term to refer to large, mainstream news sources. Those media outlets are successful because they fill that demand better than anyone else. Unbiased sources won’t get enough viewers/readers to even be considered part of “the media.”

 
When Miya Ponsetto becomes a national news story and almost nobody has even heard of Brittany Hill, I don't know how you argue with a straight face the media isn't a problem. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
When Miya Ponsetto becomes a national news story and almost nobody has even heard of Brittany Hill, I don't know how you argue with a straight face the media isn't a problem. 
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I tend to agree with you.  I'm not a fan of most media.  I miss the days of early NPR and such personally.   People didn't yell as much.

That being said, it's the market.  The rise of sensationalism in journalism dovetails nicely with the rise in reality tv.  

You want the news to be better than people have to be better.  It's all about personal responsibility.  People gobble up the enquirer.  

 
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timschochet said:
Not a problem we need to address in a political forum no. 
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First off, their is no "institutional" or "systemic" racism.  Not anymore.  Not in 2021.  We may have bad individuals but this false narrative that you guys keep pushing is what keeps the race hustlers in business.  Name me one "institution" that implements explicit racism as part of it's directive.

And, secondly, more white people are shot by police every year than black people.  So this BS that white people don't count is NOT going to win you converts to your side.  Ignoring the massive amount of black on black murder isn't either.  There seems to be no outrage over this - just when a white cop shoots a black person.

Equality is when all people are treated fairly.  Racism is just as bad when you purposefully exclude whites in favor of another race.  You either include everyone or you don't include anyone.

 
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stlrams said:
Not sure this belongs here but this thread got me thinking and maybe this idea is separate thread worthy.  I’m starting to come to the conclusion this country is being tore apart. Imho - it’s getting worst with no end sight.  While I’m roughly 5 years from retirement, the end of life game for me is probably outside of the United States.  It’s so sad..
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We are being divided by lobbyists.  When the people are united we are unstoppable.  When we are divided we fight among ourselves and the uber rich get richer.

 
John123 said:
How many beer summits did Trump have to make up for incorrectly labeling a cop as a racist?
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I think one needs the capacity to acknowledge being incorrect before it is reasonable to expect them to "make up" for it.  And I am sadden that so many find having the capacity to admit mistakes is an unpardonable weakness rather than one of the greater strengths. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
parasaurolophus said:
I remember a case (might even still be active) where a nurse gave somebody the wrong medication. She was being prosecuted. She typed the wrong information in. the computer actually prompted her to verify that she really wanted that medication. It also wouldnt take the measurement she was requesting because it was in a different form. Like it was supposed to come in a liquid instead of pills. So she had to type in the wrong measurement. None of this alerted her to there being a problem. Gave the patient the meds and she died.

She was initially cleared by an investigation by the medical board. The family of the woman killed brought it to the DA's attn and it moved forward. Nurses all over opposed this prosecution. 

Said it would set a dangerous precedent and force them to take delays in lifesaving situations out of fear of mistakes, etc etc. I sympathize with the view regarding split second, but felt this nurse was so negligent that prosecution was warranted, but then I also remember thinking she was overcharged. She clearly wasn't trying to kill the woman and who knows how frustrated or confused she got with trying to get the medication. But she ultimately did override two prohibitive warnings and basically had to type in something fake and then administer it a different way than what the directions called for.

People make mistakes at work all the time. I mean really really dumb mistakes. Its easy to say well sure, but those jobs are different. But ultimately the human mind is not really that different. The mark rober video that was linked in the FFA showed how a woman some show was interviewing couldnt even name a woman when being pressured and filmed. He was yelling at her, name a woman, any woman, just give the name of a woman, and she just couldnt spit it out. Literally couldn't even name one woman. 

Anyway, I am sure I butchered some of the details of the case above and will try to find it again, but I at least got the broad strokes correct. 


Expand  


OK it was way worse than I remembered. She ignored and clicked through 5 warnings some of which were popups that said "WARNING PARALYZING AGENT"

Also..


Quote

Vecuronium bromide comes in powder form as opposed to liquid form like Versed.
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https://www.google.com/search?q=manslaughter

 
Spartans Rule said:
Absolutely. Consumers want their news fast, sensationalized and slanted to their viewpoint, regardless of how much they might claim otherwise.

And when we talk about “the media”, that could technically include anybody with a blog, podcast, or Twitter account. We generally use the term to refer to large, mainstream news sources. Those media outlets are successful because they fill that demand better than anyone else. Unbiased sources won’t get enough viewers/readers to even be considered part of “the media.”
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I agree with this.

I'm thinking we need to bifurcate "news" and "reporting"

News:  Anyone sharing an opinion

Reporting:  Journalism

 
killface said:
I tend to agree with you.  I'm not a fan of most media.  I miss the days of early NPR and such personally.   People didn't yell as much.

That being said, it's the market.  The rise of sensationalism in journalism dovetails nicely with the rise in reality tv.  

You want the news to be better than people have to be better.  It's all about personal responsibility.  People gobble up the enquirer.  
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Some people:  The media sucks in reporting unbiased complete news, I'm finding other sources.

Other people:  I wish some people trusted the media.

Some people:  I wish I could, but they have proven untrustworthy, let me demonstrate all the reasons why

Other people:  Then stop watching it, the media only produces what there is demand for.

Some people:  Thats what I'm doing.

Other people:  I wish some people trusted the media...I know it sucks but it is only creating content there is demand for...oh wait, thats me!!!

 
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quick-hands said:
Have you seen OAN's numbers?    That's some leftist red meat.   I wouldn't be surprised that a sizable portion of their watcher's are people watching to see what they say next.
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I think there is a lot of that on both sides.  Another site I post at, there is a poster who is as far left as can be, yet can tell you all about Tucker Carlson’s show - but he never watches it. 

 
BladeRunner said:
First off, their is no "institutional" or "systemic" racism.  Not anymore.  Not in 2021.  We may have bad individuals but this false narrative that you guys keep pushing is what keeps the race hustlers in business.  Name me one "institution" that implements explicit racism as part of it's directive.

And, secondly, more white people are shot by police every year than black people.  So this BS that white people don't count is NOT going to win you converts to your side.  Ignoring the massive amount of black on black murder isn't either.  There seems to be no outrage over this - just when a white cop shoots a black person.

Equality is when all people are treated fairly.  Racism is just as bad when you purposefully exclude whites in favor of another race.  You either include everyone or you don't include anyone.
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I recognize that this is your viewpoint, and that there are many people who share it. Obviously I strongly disagree with you and we’ve been over all of the many reasons why; I see no point in rehashing them yet again. 
What gives me hope is that, after the death of George Floyd, the number of people who agree with you on this is shrinking, and those who agree with me are growing. I doubt more than a small minority of Americans would assert at this point that there is no systemic racism in our society; not even a majority of Republicans believe that anymore. That’s why I view Floyd’s death as analogous to Emmitt Till; it’s a seminal moment in our history when people finally woke up to what was happening. 

 
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I’m troubled by this second degree manslaughter charge but that may be because (1) I don’t understand the law very well and (2) I don’t know what this woman’s punishment should be. That fact that she yelled “taser” indicates that she made a mistake, and I am always far more forgiving of mistakes than I am intentional behavior. And yet she has the responsibility of bearing a deadly weapon, so as a police officer she must be held responsible for her mistakes if they result in death. There must be some sort of appropriate punishment. Is 10 years in prison appropriate? More? Less? I don’t know what is appropriate. 

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
The officer who shot Ashli Babbitt won't be charged. 
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I know Tim has declared that shooting white people is not in scope for this forum, but I'll leave there here as very relevant.

White Guy Shot...Mistaken Tazer

“Given the totality of circumstances, the officer would have been justified in using his Taser to regain control of Riling inside the holding cell, as the officer had a reasonable belief the scuffle posed a danger to his fellow officer,” he said. Because the officer believed he was pointing a taser at Riling, Weintraub said, “he did not possess the criminal mental state required to be guilty of a crime under state law.”
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Interesting inconsistency.  Shoot a white person...honest mistake, no charges.  Shoot a black person...racism, criminal charges.

To be honest, I have no idea what the penalty should be (one of the few instances I agree with @timschochet) ... but the inconsistency and movement towards what seems to be mob appeasing justice (not just this case) is not good.

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
The officer who shot Ashli Babbitt won't be charged. 
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prosecutors must be able to prove that an officer used “objectively unreasonable” force and “willfully” used more force than he thought was necessary.
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Do you think that either of the above conditions were met for the federal charges?   You might argue and I'd probably agree that neither were met in the current case being discussed either, but I'd assume those aren't the relevant conditions either.

 
BladeRunner said:
First off, their is no "institutional" or "systemic" racism.  Not anymore.  Not in 2021.  We may have bad individuals but this false narrative that you guys keep pushing is what keeps the race hustlers in business.  Name me one "institution" that implements explicit racism as part of it's directive.

And, secondly, more white people are shot by police every year than black people.  So this BS that white people don't count is NOT going to win you converts to your side.  Ignoring the massive amount of black on black murder isn't either.  There seems to be no outrage over this - just when a white cop shoots a black person.

Equality is when all people are treated fairly.  Racism is just as bad when you purposefully exclude whites in favor of another race.  You either include everyone or you don't include anyone.
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So you admit there was systemic racism?  When did it end in your eyes?  What was done to counter the impact of it to make things as fair and equal as you feel they are?   🤔 

 
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FairWarning said:
I think there is a lot of that on both sides.  Another site I post at, there is a poster who is as far left as can be, yet can tell you all about Tucker Carlson’s show - but he never watches it. 
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to be fair, i often will watch fox news and cnn/msnbc.  i do like to see how each are covering a particular story.  Its just interesting to me.  I also browse the conservative and trump subreddits on occasion.  Its fascinating actually.  But moreso, i like to hear and understand each viewpoint.  Even if i dont agree.

 
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PinkydaPimp said:
to be fair, i often will watch fox news and cnn/msnbc.  i do like to see how each are covering a particular story.  Its just interesting to me.  I also browse the conservative and trump subreddits on occasion.  Its fascinating actually.  But moreso, i like to hear and understand each viewpoint.  Even if i dont agree.
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The difference is you're trying to be objective, he doesn't care.  In his world, if you're not far left, you support white supremacy, grifting, adultry, Jim Crow, etc.  I'm not making this up either.

 
John123 said:
Obama didn't admit he was wrong or made a mistake. 
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Really?
 

And because this has been ratcheting up -- and I obviously helped to contribute ratcheting it up -- I want to make clear that in my choice of words I think I unfortunately gave an impression that I was maligning the Cambridge Police Department or Sergeant Crowley specifically -- and I could have calibrated those words differently. And I told this to Sergeant Crowley.

:

So to the extent that my choice of words didn't illuminate, but rather contributed to more media frenzy, I think that was unfortunate.
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djmich said:
I know Tim has declared that shooting white people is not in scope for this forum, but I'll leave there here as very relevant.

White Guy Shot...Mistaken Tazer

Interesting inconsistency.  Shoot a white person...honest mistake, no charges.  Shoot a black person...racism, criminal charges.

To be honest, I have no idea what the penalty should be (one of the few instances I agree with @timschochet) ... but the inconsistency and movement towards what seems to be mob appeasing justice (not just this case) is not good.
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The inconsistency here could be that you have two incidents that occurred in two different states (PA and MN) with two different sets of laws.  I don't know the penal code for those two states but if the PA DA quoted in the article is correct that a criminal mental state is required to be charged under PA law then that could explain why the PA officer was not charged while the MN officer was charged (i.e. the MN officer was charged under the equivalent of a criminally negligent homicide statute which does not exist in PA according to the DA's explanation).    

 
chitlins3 said:
The inconsistency here could be that you have two incidents that occurred in two different states (PA and MN) with two different sets of laws.  I don't know the penal code for those two states but if the PA DA quoted in the article is correct that a criminal mental state is required to be charged under PA law then that could explain why the PA officer was not charged while the MN officer was charged (i.e. the MN officer was charged under the equivalent of a criminally negligent homicide statute which does not exist in PA according to the DA's explanation).    
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👊  Not a law expert, so maybe thats the case...sounds plausible.

Not sure why all the ancillary considerations were necessary then

In making his decision to excuse the shooting, Weintraub said he took into consideration the officer’s “decades of exemplary service.” The prosecutor did not say how long the officer had served in the department, but authorities said he had “dozens of commendations and letters” during his tenure.
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Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Really?
 
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Yes, really.  Obama's first comments suggested racism was a factor.  He never addresses that or says he was wrong in his subsequent comments.  How hard is it to say you're wrong instead of saying you could have "calibrated" your comments better?  Seriously, you think the above counts as some kind of apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing? 

 
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djmich said:
I know Tim has declared that shooting white people is not in scope for this forum, but I'll leave there here as very relevant.

White Guy Shot...Mistaken Tazer

Interesting inconsistency.  Shoot a white person...honest mistake, no charges.  Shoot a black person...racism, criminal charges.

To be honest, I have no idea what the penalty should be (one of the few instances I agree with @timschochet) ... but the inconsistency and movement towards what seems to be mob appeasing justice (not just this case) is not good.
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My comments were regarding the question of systemic racism by police in general and not on these two specific cases. When it comes to specifics, there are likely always going to be inconsistencies, double standards. 
Am I concerned that a “mob mentality” could pressure prosecutors to take some actions and not to take others? Of course that’s always a relevant concern and we need to look at each situation to see if that’s what happening. But that’s a different conversation. 

 
John123 said:
Yes, really.  Obama's first comments suggested racism was a factor.  He never addresses that or says he was wrong in his subsequent comments.  How hard is it to say you're wrong instead of saying you could have "calibrated" your comments better?  Seriously, you think the above counts as some kind of apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing? 
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Again the problem here is context. Whenever a black professional (in this case a law professor and historian) is harassed by police, it’s quite reasonable to assume racism is at play. That’s because blacks suffer so much from this sort of harassment all throughout their lives. 

 
timschochet said:
My comments were regarding the question of systemic racism by police in general and not on these two specific cases. When it comes to specifics, there are likely always going to be inconsistencies, double standards. 
Am I concerned that a “mob mentality” could pressure prosecutors to take some actions and not to take others? Of course that’s always a relevant concern and we need to look at each situation to see if that’s what happening. But that’s a different conversation. 
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You are stating that two fact patterns that are exactly the same with the exception of the race of the victim can and should lead to different results. Is that correct?

 
djmich said:
👊  Not a law expert, so maybe thats the case...sounds plausible.

Not sure why all the ancillary considerations were necessary then
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My guess would be that the DA looked at the officer’s record as part of making the determination that he did not possess the required criminal mental state - if the officer did not have an exemplary record but rather had a history of questionable incidents maybe there would have been more doubt about his criminal mindset sufficient for charges to be brought.

 
Gawain said:
You are stating that two fact patterns that are exactly the same with the exception of the race of the victim can and should lead to different results. Is that correct?
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I didn’t state anything close to that. But since you’re asking, there are never two fact patterns that are exactly the same.

 
timschochet said:
Again the problem here is context. Whenever a black professional (in this case a law professor and historian) is harassed by police, it’s quite reasonable to assume racism is at play. That’s because blacks suffer so much from this sort of harassment all throughout their lives. 
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He wasn't harassed.  In fact, the cops were there due to a call by one of his neighbors who thought his house was being broken in to.  And stop it with this it's ok if black people do something that is not ok if white people do it.  We'll never agree on that.  That's racist and I will never green light racism, from ANY race.

 
timschochet said:
Again the problem here is context. Whenever a black professional (in this case a law professor and historian) is harassed by police, it’s quite reasonable to assume racism is at play. That’s because blacks suffer so much from this sort of harassment all throughout their lives. 
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Except he wasn't harassed. He felt harassed.

The context you are ignoring is that he was trying to force open the front door. Somebody saw him and his driver trying to do so and called the police. Obviously the police officer doesnt know that he lives there and obviously many criminals lie through their teeth to avoid punishment.

The officer is just doing his job.

 
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