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Another killing at the hands of the Police (14 Viewers)

ekbeats said:
Thanks.  I'm all in favor of passing legislation that limits what cops can pull people over for, and this would be one of them.  We need to limit police encounters to only things that really matter.  In CT we recently legalized marijuana (thank God) and as part of the legislation I believe they specifically said that cops can't use the smell of pot as a reason to search a vehicle.
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So when medical marijuana legislation was first passed, in a few jurisdictions, i believe seattle was one, the police could see if a driver had a medical marijuana card.  The other issue at the time was there wasnt a fair tested method for intoxication.  Meaning many were using the hair test which tests positive if you smoked within 30 days.  So police were pulling folks over if they had the card and getting DUIs out of it.  Now of course, lawyers got most of them off(maybe all of them) because thats crazy but this is why legislation takes a while to pass.  Where i am it was legalized 2 years ago and you still cant get it recreationally because police are against it and they cant agree on things like what defines intoxication or like you said, whether you can pull someone over(or search their vehicle) because it smells like weed because smell is so subjective and can be used as essentially a free pass to search whomevers vehicle you choose.  And i think most of us know how that will skew. 

ekbeats said:
Regarding profiling, I drive a blinged out black Lexus with tinted windows.  When I bought it 10 years ago I was pretty naive.  I never thought of it as a "black" car, but after driving it for a month I figured it out.  Basically once a day a black guy would give me the thumbs up or come over and talk to me at a gas station.  And you know when I really figured it out?  When I started getting pulled over left and right.  One time I was in a very rural section of CT that is probably 99% white.  I had my 12 year old son with me and we pulled over on a dirt road.  I know when I'm speeding and in this instance I wasn't speeding.  I drive extremely carefully when my son is in the car.  Anyhow, the cop comes up to my car with gun in hand.  Scared the living #### out of me.
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yea sadly this doesnt surprise me.  im pretty careful what i drive for this very reason.  I travel alot.  I remember one time this year, it was cheaper to take a later flight.  I was dlying into i forget south carolina and driving into Alabama because the cost was cheaper than flying directly into alabama.  And i told them expense folks, look im not driving at midnight through georgia and south carolina and Alabama.  forget that.  If i have to pay extra out of pocket i will but nope not doing it  :lol:   and of course i was quite careful about the rental car i chose.  I think i chose a mini van :shrug:  

So yea i agree with you, laws like that need to stop.  it only serves to piss people off but more importantly validate their misconceptions or unfair actions like profiling or stop and frisk or even potentially convict someone and lets not forget it puts police in more dangerous situations that they really dont need to be in.  I think its important to reduce police interactions to those that truly impact something serious.  Its a good start to repairing the relationships between police and the community because IMO thats really important right now.  As i referred to earlier.  If you watch the old timey shows or cartoons you see the cop swinging his baton walking through the neighborhood who knows everyone and they know them.  Lets get back to that.  I suspect that will solve more problems than most in this thread thing as its hard to have bias or profile or target because of quota someone whom you know, or you know their mom or grandmother and will see every day.  Or whose kids go to school with yours.  Lets work on this. 

Happy New Year folks.  Hopefully things improve for all of us in the New Year.  I think we all agree that will help us all. 

 
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timschochet said:
Hey Pinky I really appreciate your posts in this thread. 
I truly believe that a lot of the problem is that many white people are simply unaware of the fact that blacks are treated differently. Or they refuse to acknowledge it. 
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I get it.  It is hard to fathom.  They want to believe we are all treated equal and in their experiences they mostly are but they dont know others have a different, very different experience.  Because if not, what does that mean?  If we fix that, what does it mean for them?  Would they get treated how we are?  Thats a scary thought that i think most dont think outwardly but inside scares the F out of them. 

I still hold firm that things will change.  But it takes time and undoing unconscious bias which will take generations.  I think it can be accelerated if we do things to promote better integration(races, socio economic, religious, etc) but that too is opposed by many.  Ah well.  Just like my mother cried when she saw Obama elected, maybe ill do the same as an old man and see something ground breaking as well. 

 
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PinkydaPimp said:
ok but you said yourself.  People are going to commit crimes.  We both know that.  But only one group is getting profiled and arrested and convicted at disproportionate rates.  Again that is my issue and you continue to side step that. Are you ok with that being the case? 

Do you think there is a way to just say dont commit crimes and everyone in america will do that?  I dont.  Especially people in poverty who are starving and cant get a job.   So in your world its much easier to say that then to realistically do it. 
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again, there is a lot more to it IMO .... the studies even indicate that

maybe you'd like quota's that arrest at a proportionate rate to the communities/precincts?  if a community is 60% black, 35% white ... they have to arrest 60 blacks for every 35 whites - would that make you feel better? and in 90-10 communities with whites, gotta arrest 90 whites to every 10 blacks 

I mean people get arrested for doing crimes - I don't care the color of their skins. You and I agree on quota's needing thrown out and I mean for police, colleges, companies - throw them all out. We disagree on profiling - its a valuable tool if used right. 

We also disagree on disproportionate arrests or, at least the core reason its like that - but at least we're trying to see each others views right ?   No, it doesn't bother me if more whites are arrested for X type crimes than blacks .... they do those crimes, I don't care if disproportionate and if its blacks, browns disproportionate I don't care about that either to be honest. Tied to quota's we agree its wrong to do that though. I would think arresting people doing crimes is a GOOD thing - heck IMO turn the tables and arrest every white criminal in the USA tomorrow and you'll not see me complain its racists because it gets them out of the communities and that's a GOOD thing

I can't imagine complaining about arresting criminals ?

kodycutter said:
video & body cam

awful this young girl lost her life.      the suspect looks like he had some screws loose.
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The shooting — three rifle rounds in a matter of seconds — occurred after the suspect had beaten the woman with a bike lock, the video showed, and after the officer had rushed past some of his colleagues who were urging him to slow down.

So they should have let him run off to hurt/kill someone else?  yes, its awful what happened but the start of it all was a criminal committing a crime - wasn't it?

 
Stealthycat said:
maybe you'd like quota's that arrest at a proportionate rate to the communities/precincts?  if a community is 60% black, 35% white ... they have to arrest 60 blacks for every 35 whites - would that make you feel better? and in 90-10 communities with whites, gotta arrest 90 whites to every 10 blacks 
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No it wouldnt make me feel better for 90 white people to get arrested or profiled due to a quota.  I dont think there should be quotas at all.  You say people get arrested for doing crimes but quotas are engaging people that may not have committed a crime at all.  

Stealthycat said:
I mean people get arrested for doing crimes
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People get arrested because an officer thinks they committed a crime?  The problem here is when those that may not have get no bail due to not having money or a lawyer, or get convicted or plea due to those things who may not have even committed a crime.  Now you have situations where quotas and profiling drive crime rates especially for petty things. Go watch or read about Kalief Browder for example.  

Stealthycat said:
yes, its awful what happened but the start of it all was a criminal committing a crime - wasn't it?
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so that means recklessly shoot up the place and kill innocent bystanders to apprehend a criminal thats not armed with a gun? 

 
PinkydaPimp said:
so that means recklessly shoot up the place and kill innocent bystanders to apprehend a criminal thats not armed with a gun? 
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Did racism play a part in this incident?

In the video, the assailant had moved away from the victim and was cornered by numerous police officers.  The black cop who shot and killed the assailant and the girl in the dressing room had previously expressed support for BLM.

 
Caveman33 said:
Did racism play a part in this incident?

In the video, the assailant had moved away from the victim and was cornered by numerous police officers.  The black cop who shot and killed the assailant and the girl in the dressing room had previously expressed support for BLM.
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is someone saying that it did?
 

also not sure what BLM has to do with this.       Care to elaborate what you are getting at?

 
PinkydaPimp said:
is someone saying that it did?
 

also not sure what BLM has to do with this.       Care to elaborate what you are getting at?
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/lapd-cop-shot-teen-girl-233115180.html

This article is the only one I've seen that provided background on the cop.

As I've posted many times before, I feel the race card is abused. Whenever a black person is the victim or recipient of a negative result at the hands of a white person, the MSM immediately broadcasts their race and explicitly or implicitly declares prejudice as the motivating factor.  Why don't we see this when the roles are reversed?

I don't know if this black cop is racist or prejudice.  Even if there were evidence of him having made racist remarks in the past, I still wouldn't be able to say if it motivated him to shoot wildly and unnecessarily in this instance.  But I do wish for consistency from those who seem to always see racism in the actions of white people in similar situations.

 
Caveman33 said:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/lapd-cop-shot-teen-girl-233115180.html

This article is the only one I've seen that provided background on the cop.

As I've posted many times before, I feel the race card is abused. Whenever a black person is the victim or recipient of a negative result at the hands of a white person, the MSM immediately broadcasts their race and explicitly or implicitly declares prejudice as the motivating factor.  Why don't we see this when the roles are reversed?

I don't know if this black cop is racist or prejudice.  Even if there were evidence of him having made racist remarks in the past, I still wouldn't be able to say if it motivated him to shoot wildly and unnecessarily in this instance.  But I do wish for consistency from those who seem to always see racism in the actions of white people in similar situations.
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im still not sure what your rant has to do with this conversation but ok.  isnt there a MSM thread around here?

Also i suspect you may see less of that if actual racism was acknowledged even the more covert forms. 

 
PinkydaPimp said:
im still not sure what your rant has to do with this conversation but ok.  isnt there a MSM thread around here?

Also i suspect you may see less of that if actual racism was acknowledged even the more covert forms. 
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So, this thread is only for white cops killing minorities?  OK, my bad.

 
Caveman33 said:
So, this thread is only for white cops killing minorities?  OK, my bad.
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Did i say that?    This incident was discussed and is still developing.  It seems your beef is with MSM and there is a thread for that.  Thats why i  asked, where are you going with this? 

 
PinkydaPimp said:
Did i say that?    This incident was discussed and is still developing.  It seems your beef is with MSM and there is a thread for that.  Thats why i  asked, where are you going with this? 
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I think CBS News did a good job covering this case. They showed the whole incident from start to finish and it was hard to watch. This guy was obviously mentally deranged and went on a violent spree inside the store, where he seriously injured several people. Where the dynamic of the whole incident changed, was the 911 call that indicated shots fired. The operator confirms is a gun being fired (or something like that) and the caller said yes.

The officers arrive and start to follow a blood trail from one of the victims. They find a bleeding victim and then the subject appears in the aisle with something in his hand.  IMO the officer fired in a responsive fashion--I mean not like in the Breonna Taylor where they shot up like 5 apartments with a thousand rounds.

To me this is just a terrible, tragic accident where this poor girl was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But it is clear that many of the MSM outlets are attempting to make this into a huge deal especially with ambulance chaser, Ben Crump, leading the charge.

 
I am pretty pro police, and I dont want to monday morning QB this, but that is some pretty heavy artillery to bring into a shopping center, no?

I have no idea what the level of communication was between the store and the police. But as far as anything shown, the suspect was not using a gun. A bike lock obv does some damage, but it is a very low range weapon. You see from the video that there were officers with their handguns drawn in front of this cop and he activity raced, tapping another police officer on the shoulder to get by him and up to the front with his assault rifle. 

I'm not a gun guy (but I support 2A), what give the shooter more control, an assault rifle or a handgun? 

Is there anyone here who works in retail know the protocol for the shoppers safety in an event like this? You would think that they would try and clear the dressing rooms being they are so confined and you are a sitting duck in there. IDK? 

I'm not sure what the right answer here is, yes very tragic that an innocent girl lost her life. But I think you can question the overwhelming show of force for this situation. Again, I am very pro-police, but there is a part of me that feels they are becoming very militarized. Here we had 1 guy with a blunt weapon, simply surrounding him with armed police could have led to him giving up (maybe). 

By the footage, this PO just turned the corner and without a word shot, with an assault rifle. 

Again, please don't mistake me, PO's have very dangerous jobs and unless you are in their shoes, we dont have the ability to truly critique them. If this innocent girl never got caught in the crossfire, this store would never had made the news. 

 
glvsav37 said:
I am pretty pro police, and I dont want to monday morning QB this, but that is some pretty heavy artillery to bring into a shopping center, no?

I have no idea what the level of communication was between the store and the police. But as far as anything shown, the suspect was not using a gun. A bike lock obv does some damage, but it is a very low range weapon. You see from the video that there were officers with their handguns drawn in front of this cop and he activity raced, tapping another police officer on the shoulder to get by him and up to the front with his assault rifle. 

I'm not a gun guy (but I support 2A), what give the shooter more control, an assault rifle or a handgun? 

Is there anyone here who works in retail know the protocol for the shoppers safety in an event like this? You would think that they would try and clear the dressing rooms being they are so confined and you are a sitting duck in there. IDK? 

I'm not sure what the right answer here is, yes very tragic that an innocent girl lost her life. But I think you can question the overwhelming show of force for this situation. Again, I am very pro-police, but there is a part of me that feels they are becoming very militarized. Here we had 1 guy with a blunt weapon, simply surrounding him with armed police could have led to him giving up (maybe). 

By the footage, this PO just turned the corner and without a word shot, with an assault rifle. 

Again, please don't mistake me, PO's have very dangerous jobs and unless you are in their shoes, we dont have the ability to truly critique them. If this innocent girl never got caught in the crossfire, this store would never had made the news. 
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The police were operating under the information that the guy was armed with a gun and was actively discharging the weapon per a 911 caller.

They arrive and see a trail of blood. find a victim bleeding on the floor and the subject appears a split second later. They had no choice but to take him down for officer/public safety. They got bad info from a 911 caller, but if they hesitated and more people were shot (like we have seen in other mall shootings), everyone would have been wondering why they did not act sooner. Let's say he is armed with a gun, the police hesitate and the guy goes in the dressing room and murders the girl, I would bet we would see Crump and others lambasting the police for not doing their job. This was a terrible accident and the police were put in an untenable spot. 

You bring up the retail store's protocol, I have to wonder (and again I don't know) that the reason they weren't treating this as an active shooter situation was they just figuring the police would arrive and arrest the guy because all he had was a chain..

I feel so bad for the family and the officer involved. 

 
Courtjester said:
The police were operating under the information that the guy was armed with a gun and was actively discharging the weapon per a 911 caller.

They arrive and see a trail of blood. find a victim bleeding on the floor and the subject appears a split second later. They had no choice but to take him down for officer/public safety. They got bad info from a 911 caller, but if they hesitated and more people were shot (like we have seen in other mall shootings), everyone would have been wondering why they did not act sooner. Let's say he is armed with a gun, the police hesitate and the guy goes in the dressing room and murders the girl, I would bet we would see Crump and others lambasting the police for not doing their job. This was a terrible accident and the police were put in an untenable spot. 

You bring up the retail store's protocol, I have to wonder (and again I don't know) that the reason they weren't treating this as an active shooter situation was they just figuring the police would arrive and arrest the guy because all he had was a chain..

I feel so bad for the family and the officer involved. 
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damn.   this is so sad. 

Im sitting here thinking what can be done if 911 is giving incorrect info just because a "witness"  says gun(i can see this happening often in a stressful situation), should that mean police should just throw protocol out the window and go in guns blazing?  Should they validate and assess first?  Is there even time to do this?  i dont really have an answer to that and it does seem they were operating under the assumption there was a shooter.  I need to read a bit more about this. 

I heard or saw somewhere that other officers were telling the officer that shot to fall back or slow down, is that true?

 
PinkydaPimp said:
damn.   this is so sad. 

Im sitting here thinking what can be done if 911 is giving incorrect info just because a "witness"  says gun(i can see this happening often in a stressful situation), should that mean police should just throw protocol out the window and go in guns blazing?  Should they validate and assess first?  Is there even time to do this?  i dont really have an answer to that and it does seem they were operating under the assumption there was a shooter.  I need to read a bit more about this. 

I heard or saw somewhere that other officers were telling the officer that shot to fall back or slow down, is that true?
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This article, says other officers told him a dozen times to slow down, but he seems like he was in high gear that day. This Yahoo article has some pretty good info about him. Link

 
Courtjester said:
The police were operating under the information that the guy was armed with a gun and was actively discharging the weapon per a 911 caller.

They arrive and see a trail of blood. find a victim bleeding on the floor and the subject appears a split second later. They had no choice but to take him down for officer/public safety. They got bad info from a 911 caller, but if they hesitated and more people were shot (like we have seen in other mall shootings), everyone would have been wondering why they did not act sooner. Let's say he is armed with a gun, the police hesitate and the guy goes in the dressing room and murders the girl, I would bet we would see Crump and others lambasting the police for not doing their job. This was a terrible accident and the police were put in an untenable spot. 

You bring up the retail store's protocol, I have to wonder (and again I don't know) that the reason they weren't treating this as an active shooter situation was they just figuring the police would arrive and arrest the guy because all he had was a chain..

I feel so bad for the family and the officer involved. 
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Exactly why I’m trying to reserve opinion. I had not heard the 911 call.  I agree if they thought he was armed with a firearm, then different level of response.  
 

but i still wonder if the assault rice was needed, or at least needed as the 1st line of attack against a single suspect.  
 

I’ll ask again, from an accuracy perspective which is better, an assault rifle or a handgun?  That could be a key difference.  If an assault rifle is less accurate, why bring it into a potentially crowded environment where the layout could work against you?  Again, idk but I would hope our police are not out playing COD when they shouldn’t. 

 
glvsav37 said:
Exactly why I’m trying to reserve opinion. I had not heard the 911 call.  I agree if they thought he was armed with a firearm, then different level of response.  
 

but i still wonder if the assault rice was needed, or at least needed as the 1st line of attack against a single suspect.  
 

I’ll ask again, from an accuracy perspective which is better, an assault rifle or a handgun?  That could be a key difference.  If an assault rifle is less accurate, why bring it into a potentially crowded environment where the layout could work against you?  Again, idk but I would hope our police are not out playing COD when they shouldn’t. 
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At close ranges accuracy is more on the shooter, than the weapon.  However, in general, Rifles are more accurate, especially at longer distances.  And thats simply based on physics of the longer barrel, for starters (but there is more).

However, Many things can affect accuracy positively and negatively.

 
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PinkydaPimp said:
but quotas are engaging people that may not have committed a crime at all.  
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of 10,000 arrests how many do you think police just make up ? you think police are arresting people who are not commiting crimes ?

PinkydaPimp said:
People get arrested because an officer thinks they committed a crime?  The problem here is when those that may not have get no bail due to not having money or a lawyer, or get convicted or plea due to those things who may not have even committed a crime.  Now you have situations where quotas and profiling drive crime rates especially for petty things
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what does this mean?   you think without any cause police are arresting people ? if they can't get bail or have money that's not anyone's fault but the people doing the crimes.

my daughter had no money when she got arrested - she shouldn't have had drug paraphernalia on her and a few pills - SHE made those choices, not me, not police

PinkydaPimp said:
so that means recklessly shoot up the place and kill innocent bystanders to apprehend a criminal thats not armed with a gun? 
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I don't think you can say "recklessly" ..... but yes, they had to act because of the criminal's actions. Had that criminal not done anything, they'd not have been forced to act and in seconds decisions had to be made

had they done nothing and that guy killed 2 more people, police would have been blamed for not actions correctly there too 

 
PinkydaPimp said:
Did i say that?    This incident was discussed and is still developing.  It seems your beef is with MSM and there is a thread for that.  Thats why i  asked, where are you going with this? 
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I do blame the MSM for their selective reporting and distorting the perception of the average viewer.  But my question in this thread was directed at you because you seem to consistently find racism as the motivating factor behind the actions of white cops.  Wanted to see if you felt the same when it was reversed.  You answered the question. 

 
Caveman33 said:
Whenever a black person is the victim or recipient of a negative result at the hands of a white person, the MSM immediately broadcasts their race and explicitly or implicitly declares prejudice as the motivating factor.  Why don't we see this when the roles are reversed?
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not just racial - 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/illinois-police-officer-marlene-rittmanic-indiana-darius-sullivan-xandria-harris

had those 2 officers killed those two black people we'd have seen marches and possible riots .......... but its two white cops being shot/killed by two black people ... didn't even make CNN news that I saw. No marches, no riots, not many people even care

a huge, vast difference in reporting civilians killed by officers vs officers by civilians

 
sho nuff said:
I would not think so.  I think any killings by police to be discussed.  And many of them show the need for reform in police tactics.
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It's not just their killings that show need for reform but also how much they abuse their power in everyday life and how little punishment they face when this is exposed.  Police should be held to a higher standard, not lower.  But this topic has been hijacked by BLM and made into a racial issue rather than a simple abuse of power.  Is that more likely to bring about change?  Or would we be better off acknowledging that this is a problem all people face?

 
timschochet said:
Hey Pinky I really appreciate your posts in this thread. 
I truly believe that a lot of the problem is that many white people are simply unaware of the fact that blacks are treated differently. Or they refuse to acknowledge it. 
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I truly believe a lot of the problem is that many people are simply unaware of or fail to acknowledge the fact that blacks, whites, men, women, rich, poor, Chrisitian, muslim, vaxxers and non-vaxxeers, gay, straight,  dog lovers, cat lovers, police, civilians, politicians, voters, legally here people, illegally here people, gun owners .... well in fact, almost EVERONE can be treated differently .... 

that's a massive problem

 
Caveman33 said:
It's not just their killings that show need for reform but also how much they abuse their power in everyday life and how little punishment they face when this is exposed.  Police should be held to a higher standard, not lower.  But this topic has been hijacked by BLM and made into a racial issue rather than a simple abuse of power.  Is that more likely to bring about change?  Or would we be better off acknowledging that this is a problem all people face?
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you think police are held to lower standards ?

you are not wrong, if police are abusing their power that does need addressed and I think it has an is over the last decade(s)

how about we hold civilians accountable to high standards too - why is it too much to ask to not commit violent crimes? imagine if we could do that ... 

 
Caveman33 said:
I do blame the MSM for their selective reporting and distorting the perception of the average viewer.  But my question in this thread was directed at you because you seem to consistently find racism as the motivating factor behind the actions of white cops.  Wanted to see if you felt the same when it was reversed.  You answered the question. 
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I do?  I think I’ve been pretty clear in my belief that most of the time the issue is systemic and not necessarily the individual officer.  And yes i think bias is more often present than overt racism.  And before you go on another rant yes people of any color can hold bias’ towards people of any color including their own.
 

Would you prefer i make judgement with out reading more about this lapd case?   For the record based on what i know i haven’t seen where racism is at play but it does appear maybe that officer took a more aggressive approach in apprehending the suspect.  But they did hear from 911 he was armed so i get it.  But as i posted earlier that raises a question.  Should that be justification to go in guns blazing?  If i call 911 and report mistakenly someone had a gun for any crime do they have the right to go in and shoot first ask questions later?  Again i don’t have the answer for that.  Curious to hear yours however.   

 
Stealthycat said:
I truly believe a lot of the problem is that many people are simply unaware of or fail to acknowledge the fact that blacks, whites, men, women, rich, poor, Chrisitian, muslim, vaxxers and non-vaxxeers, gay, straight,  dog lovers, cat lovers, police, civilians, politicians, voters, legally here people, illegally here people, gun owners .... well in fact, almost EVERONE can be treated differently .... 

that's a massive problem
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WHO doesn’t acknowledge this?  I think the issue is that some don’t acknowledge that the levels to which they are treated differently can be significant and extremely impactful for some and beneficial for others.  

 
Caveman33 said:
It's not just their killings that show need for reform but also how much they abuse their power in everyday life and how little punishment they face when this is exposed.  Police should be held to a higher standard, not lower.  But this topic has been hijacked by BLM and made into a racial issue rather than a simple abuse of power.  Is that more likely to bring about change?  Or would we be better off acknowledging that this is a problem all people face?
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Why can’t both issues occur simultaneously and independently?

 
PinkydaPimp said:
WHO doesn’t acknowledge this?  I think the issue is that some don’t acknowledge that the levels to which they are treated differently can be significant and extremely impactful for some and beneficial for others.  
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well this is true absolutely depending on who you are - doesn't everyone feel they're treated differently in some way or form?

for me, as a very poor white kid from Arkansas, I saw and felt many things in my young life most people don't understand because they didn't live it - I think all of us have an inability to relate to others lives don't you ?

one great potential thing about forums ... if people truly try and understand someone else's views .... man imagine how we'd all better understand everyone around us ?  

 
Stealthycat said:
of 10,000 arrests how many do you think police just make up ? you think police are arresting people who are not commiting crimes ?
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Engaging is different from arresting.  But the more times you engage or profile someone the more arrests will occur

Stealthycat said:
what does this mean?   you think without any cause police are arresting people ? if they can't get bail or have money that's not anyone's fault but the people doing the crimes.

my daughter had no money when she got arrested - she shouldn't have had drug paraphernalia on her and a few pills - SHE made those choices, not me, not police
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 Not having bail isn’t anyones fault but it does have an impact to those that don’t.  Ask Khalif browder.  It can also lead to more pleas or convictions.  

 
Stealthycat said:
I think all of us have an inability to relate to others lives don't you
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Some more than others but i agree it’s hard.  It’s better done in person.  Which is why better integration is important.

Stealthycat said:
one great potential thing about forums ... if people truly try and understand someone else's views .... man imagine how we'd all better understand everyone around us ?
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So so true!!!!!!  

 
PinkydaPimp said:
I do?  I think I’ve been pretty clear in my belief that most of the time the issue is systemic and not necessarily the individual officer.  And yes i think bias is more often present than overt racism.  And before you go on another rant yes people of any color can hold bias’ towards people of any color including their own.
 

Would you prefer i make judgement with out reading more about this lapd case?   For the record based on what i know i haven’t seen where racism is at play but it does appear maybe that officer took a more aggressive approach in apprehending the suspect.  But they did hear from 911 he was armed so i get it.  But as i posted earlier that raises a question.  Should that be justification to go in guns blazing?  If i call 911 and report mistakenly someone had a gun for any crime do they have the right to go in and shoot first ask questions later?  Again i don’t have the answer for that.  Curious to hear yours however.   
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Not sure why you keep referring to my posts as rants but I'll try to keep this rant brief.  There is probably a systemic problem with police profiling blacks.  There is also probably a systemic problem of blacks committing more violent crime than average.

No, the police should never go in guns blazing.  Mistaken reports of a gun happen.  In this case, the officer was told the suspect has "a tube" a few seconds before the actual encounter.  The officer saw the guys hands and then ultimately fired when the suspect turned his back.

 
Caveman33 said:
Not sure why you keep referring to my posts as rants but I'll try to keep this rant brief.  There is probably a systemic problem with police profiling blacks.  There is also probably a systemic problem of blacks committing more violent crime than average.
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I don’t disagree with this at all.  

Caveman33 said:
No, the police should never go in guns blazing.  Mistaken reports of a gun happen.  In this case, the officer was told the suspect has "a tube" a few seconds before the actual encounter.  The officer saw the guys hands and then ultimately fired when the suspect turned his back.
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This either.  Though didn’t some of the officers tell the one who shot to slow down?  Again i don’t know a ton about this.  I’ll look today.  Bad 911 calls happen probably a lot.  But at what point does an officer need to confirm for themselves and also do their best to not harm bystanders.  I’m not sure the protocol here though i know some jurisdictions they call off police chases so that they keep the public safe and don’t cause a crash.  Similar concept.  
 

and my apologies for saying rant.  That was probably a little chippy on my part so sorry about that and happy new year!

 
So the LA cop is probably looking at first or second degree manslaughter charges now?   It can`t be second degree murder.  After the Potter conviction he has to be concerned.

 
PinkydaPimp said:
 or pissed they are being profiled. 

A story of how profiling leads to more profiling as well as prejudice and bias.  Its a circle that continues giving justification for "profiling one group over another."  This is what you were inferring with your serial killer example right? 

 
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Ah I see. The kid decided to drive around with drug paraphernalia on the floor of his car and then ran a stop sign. But it’s the police officers fault lol

beautiful 

:lol:

 
@Caveman33 I’m not a member of BLM, but I absolutely believe that the issue of police abuse of power is pretty much only important in terms of racism. I’m not interested in any incidents involving white people and I don’t think the media should report them unless highly unusual. However the media should report EVERY questionable behavior by police that involves black people. I’m glad they’re selective about this and they should be, 

White people in this country are not subjected to institutionalized racism on a daily basis. Black people and other minorities are. Police do not abuse power against white people as a general rule, but they do against blacks. That’s where the focus needs to be. 

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Did you assign him any blame for the poor decisions he made ?
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You missed the point and conveniently did not quote that portion of the story. 

Both people in the story made poor decisions.  One person felt repercussions from it however.  The point was that controlling for similar numbers of people making poor decisions, profiling one group over the other only servers to validate further profiling which drives up engagements, arrests and convictions. 

Keep up bud and please dont put words in my mouth. 

 
PinkydaPimp said:
You missed the point and conveniently did not quote that portion of the story. 

Both people in the story made poor decisions.  One person felt repercussions from it however.  The point was that controlling for similar numbers of people making poor decisions, profiling one group over the other only servers to validate further profiling which drives up engagements, arrests and convictions. 

Keep up bud and please dont put words in my mouth. 
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Actually, I didn’t miss the point. And I’ve kept up just fine. And I didn’t put anything in your mouth

If both dudes would’ve left the drugs at home and stopped at stop signs, they’d have nothing to worry about 

But you chose to blame him losing his job and turning to a life of crime the police officers fault 

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Actually, I didn’t miss the point. And I’ve kept up just fine. And I didn’t put anything in your mouth

If both dudes would’ve left the drugs at home and stopped at stop signs, they’d have nothing to worry about 

But you chose to blame him losing his job and turning to a life of crime the police officers fault 
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Show me where i blamed the officer?   

First, i dont believe its the officers fault.  Its likely more systemic than that.  Second, both people are to blame for their own actions and should have left drugs at home but regardless, people use drugs, people of all races.  Again, im not disagreeing with that.  My point is that the OUTCOMES are different as a result of the systemic forces that happen to disproportionately impact one more than the other(ie who officers are told to engage for example).  Which then sets off a chain of events one of which includes folks using crime stats to validate even MORE stop and frisking or profiling.  My beef is with that.  This wouldn't be an issue if they did away with profiling and stop and frisk.  Thats all im saying.  but you jumped in and tried to twist my words as if im blaming that specific officer or saying the drivers have no blame.  That did not happen. 

If an equal number of people are driving with drugs, are you ok with one group being engaged significantly more than the other? 
 

 
Glancing at the last couple days' worth of posts it still seems like one group of people are talking about big picture and overall stats, and then are countered with another group who is talking about certain cases as though that disproves the overall stats.     Really hard to have a dialogue that way.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
Glancing at the last couple days' worth of posts it still seems like one group of people are talking about big picture and overall stats, and then are countered with another group who is talking about certain cases as though that disproves the overall stats.     Really hard to have a dialogue that way.  
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🤔  Not sure the context you’re thinking of but I think it applies very much for both sides of the discussion.

 
djmich said:
🤔  Not sure the context you’re thinking of but I think it applies very much for both sides of the discussion.
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It just happens in general quite a bit, IMO especially in these topics when we are talking about big picture ideas of race throughout the country.    It leads to a lot of talking past each other and frustration.  

 
djmich said:
🤔  Not sure the context you’re thinking of but I think it applies very much for both sides of the discussion.
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It does. And as it happens so often, we’re not very far apart. 
 

There are those here who don’t want to see any mistreatment of minorities by police, but believe that it’s overemphasized and that in most situations of this sort, the person who was attacked by the police bears a great deal of the responsibility. They believe that racial issues are created when none existed, and that the police are often the actual victims here as their lives can be ruined by the publicity. 

And there are those who believe that there is institutionalized racism in our police forces, and that they treat minorities differently and worse and unfairly even when the victim in question is somewhat complicit in causing the incident. 
 

None of us want to see bad things happen. All of us have good intent, and we’re not very far apart. But this is a difference in perspective that we have trouble bridging. 

 
IMO the biggest disconnect with topics like this is that when people read or hear "systemic racism" they think what is being suggested is that there are still a ton of super racist white people twisting their moustaches and thinking of ways to hold POC down.   OR that people are suggesting there are still laws on the books designed specifically against POC.     

That's not what I am saying, and I can't remember anybody else talking about systemic issues talking about it in those ways either.   

 
timschochet said:
It does. And as it happens so often, we’re not very far apart. 
 

There are those here who don’t want to see any mistreatment of minorities by police, but believe that it’s overemphasized and that in most situations of this sort, the person who was attacked by the police bears a great deal of the responsibility. They believe that racial issues are created when none existed, and that the police are often the actual victims here as their lives can be ruined by the publicity. 

And there are those who believe that there is institutionalized racism in our police forces, and that they treat minorities differently and worse and unfairly even when the victim in question is somewhat complicit in causing the incident. 
 

None of us want to see bad things happen. All of us have good intent, and we’re not very far apart. But this is a difference in perspective that we have trouble bridging. 
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And there’s people who believe both 👋

 
Thought this was interesting.  Its a long read.  But relevant to this discussion.

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/ripa-board-report-2022.pdf#page30

California’s Racial and Identity Profiling Advisory Board (“Board”) is pleased to release the 2022
Annual Report (“Report”). The Report closely examines a wide range of issue areas related to
racial and identity profiling, providing context and research to deepen the public’s
understanding of the stop data collected under the Racial and Identity Profiling Act (“RIPA”).
Click to expand...


Shorter version of the study:  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/study-californias-policing-profiling-report-shows-racial-disparities-in-vehicle-stops/ar-AASk1qI

 
PinkydaPimp said:
Engaging is different from arresting.  But the more times you engage or profile someone the more arrests will occur
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not if the people being engaged aren't committing crimes

PinkydaPimp said:
Not having bail isn’t anyones fault but it does have an impact to those that don’t.  Ask Khalif browder.  It can also lead to more pleas or convictions.  
Click to expand...


this I know is true first hand  -  how would you attack this?  public defenders sucks - do away with them?  I mean the problem is there - in how public defenders are simply not good vs hired attorney's 

 
timschochet said:
I’m not interested in any incidents involving white people and I don’t think the media should report them unless highly unusual. However the media should report EVERY questionable behavior by police that involves black people. I’m glad they’re selective about this and they should be, 
Click to expand...


that's pure racist / racism right there and when you say  "None of us want to see bad things happen. All of us have good intent, and we’re not very far apart. But this is a difference in perspective that we have trouble bridging. "

you reckon the trouble bridging might be enhanced with your first quote above?

White people in this country are not subjected to institutionalized racism on a daily basis.
Click to expand...


actually white people ARE every day - and this can be seen with the many examples of affirmative action rules/laws that basically say if you got white skin, you don't get the scholarship, the job, the entry, the award, the consideration etc

yet on the other hand, no examples of white only anything can be provided to show institutional white privileges

take the blinders off

 
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Stealthycat said:
not if the people being engaged aren't committing crimes
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Well thats the thing.  Define committing crimes?  Are you referring to those convicted of committing a crime?  Because that involves things like after being engaged, are you searched?  Are you arrested?  Do you have the means to get a better lawyer?  You can commit a crime and have a strong chance of not being convicted of it.  Others  not so much. 

Stealthycat said:
this I know is true first hand  -  how would you attack this?  public defenders sucks - do away with them?  I mean the problem is there - in how public defenders are simply not good vs hired attorney's 
Click to expand...
As with many things, those who dont have money are going to get less.  Schools that arent as good, attorneys that arent as good.  All of those things have repercussions regardless of whether a crime was committed or not. 

I would be willing to bet everyone in this thread has done numerous things that could have resulted in being referred to as a crime whether small like a traffic infraction or more serious like drug use.  But its not recognized as a crime until you are caught and prosecuted.  That's a big difference, so saying "dont commit crimes" is entirely missing the point.  Of course dont commit crimes.  But my point is the number of stops or police engagements is going to increase the crime statistics.  The study i posted above shows that. 
 

 
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