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Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (3 Viewers)

Interesting. The '67 riots destroyed my city, it was before I was born but my grandparents lived on the edge of where the riots ended up. Detroit never recovered, anyone with the ability to move out did over the next 20 years and you see where it is today. The interstate system displaced many of the poorest residents in many urban areas, and then the Fair Housing Act of 1966 brought drastic changes to very segregated areas. Then the riots came, and then everyone with means left. Rinse and repeat in St Louis, Newark, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore and many more cities across the country. Long story short since I don't want to get to deep into this, we really haven't learned from what happened almost 50 years ago and we've repeated some of the mistakes that made many urban areas in this country nearly unlivable. Runaway crime, drugs, poverty, and a mentality of the populace of nothing to lose. Part of it is a policing problem but it is a societal problem and we love to just ignore our problems hoping they will dissolve on their own. Well they don't, and the destitute will have their say here and in many places all over the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?

The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
The war on drugs has been a disaster. That would be a fine place to start. But are you -- or is anyone -- willing, politically, to get up in front of a crowd and say that a) the war on drugs helped create the crack epidemic and b) that we should now legalize crack and heroin?

Because that's a third rail right there.
I'd say...

Crack and heroin usage is very costly to families, to communities, to society. But criminalizing the activity hasn't prevented the epidemic nor do I believe it has reduced it. Thus no matter how one feels about the evils of usage maybe we should try to better utilize these resources than destroying our urban centers and creating the best economic opportunity for too many,
are you actually calling for the legalization of cocaine?
Yes! I generally oppose throwing resources at problems in a manner that are not only ineffective but makes the problems worst. Maybe the cost-benefits can be altered within the framework of keeping it and others illegal (maybe a more targeted approach) such that I change my mind, but I'm not holding my breath that prohibition will ever work. And I think cocaine is preferable to the random chemistry project alternatives.
What if a mother sees her son getting burned up by the stuff. No one to call, right?

 
Interesting. The '67 riots destroyed my city, it was before I was born but my grandparents lived on the edge of where the riots ended up. Detroit never recovered, anyone with the ability to move out did over the next 20 years and you see where it is today. The interstate system displaced many of the poorest residents in many urban areas, and then the Fair Housing Act of 1966 brought drastic changes to very segregated areas. Then the riots came, and then everyone with means left. Rinse and repeat in St Louis, Newark, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore and many more cities across the country. Long story short since I don't want to get to deep into this, we really haven't learned from what happened almost 50 years ago and we've repeated some of the mistakes that made many urban areas in this country nearly unlivable. Runaway crime, drugs, poverty, and a mentality of the populace of nothing to lose. Part of it is a policing problem but it is a societal problem and we love to just ignore our problems hoping they will dissolve on their own. Well they don't, and the destitute will have their say here and in many places all over the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?

The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
We should also maybe consider the practices that are most directly connected with the attitude currently on display. Everyone who is trying to grasp this situation should read this great Baltimore Sun invstigation into Baltimore PD police brutality from just 7 months ago. Some highlights:

Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones — jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles — head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.

And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victims — if charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching him — a beating that led the police commissioner to say he was “shocked.”

Such beatings, in which the victims are most often African-Americans, carry a hefty cost. They can poison relationships between police and the community, limiting cooperation in the fight against crime, the mayor and police officials say. They also divert money in the city budget — the $5.7 million in taxpayer funds paid out since January 2011 would cover the price of a state-of-the-art rec center or renovations at more than 30 playgrounds. And that doesn’t count the $5.8 million spent by the city on legal fees to defend these claims brought against police.
Condemn the looting of a CVS or the burning of a police car all you want. I'm 100% with you, all that stuff is worthy of condemnation. But seems like we should be condemning the stuff described in this article much more forcefully and frequently. Did any of the news coverage last night even bring up this huge and damning investigation from just a couple months ago?
Of course

 
Interesting. The '67 riots destroyed my city, it was before I was born but my grandparents lived on the edge of where the riots ended up. Detroit never recovered, anyone with the ability to move out did over the next 20 years and you see where it is today. The interstate system displaced many of the poorest residents in many urban areas, and then the Fair Housing Act of 1966 brought drastic changes to very segregated areas. Then the riots came, and then everyone with means left. Rinse and repeat in St Louis, Newark, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore and many more cities across the country. Long story short since I don't want to get to deep into this, we really haven't learned from what happened almost 50 years ago and we've repeated some of the mistakes that made many urban areas in this country nearly unlivable. Runaway crime, drugs, poverty, and a mentality of the populace of nothing to lose. Part of it is a policing problem but it is a societal problem and we love to just ignore our problems hoping they will dissolve on their own. Well they don't, and the destitute will have their say here and in many places all over the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?

The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
The war on drugs has been a disaster. That would be a fine place to start. But are you -- or is anyone -- willing, politically, to get up in front of a crowd and say that a) the war on drugs helped create the crack epidemic and b) that we should now legalize crack and heroin?

Because that's a third rail right there.
I'd say...

Crack and heroin usage is very costly to families, to communities, to society. But criminalizing the activity hasn't prevented the epidemic nor do I believe it has reduced it. Thus no matter how one feels about the evils of usage maybe we should try to better utilize these resources than destroying our urban centers and creating the best economic opportunity for too many,
are you actually calling for the legalization of cocaine?
Yes! I generally oppose throwing resources at problems in a manner that are not only ineffective but makes the problems worst. Maybe the cost-benefits can be altered within the framework of keeping it and others illegal (maybe a more targeted approach) such that I change my mind, but I'm not holding my breath that prohibition will ever work. And I think cocaine is preferable to the random chemistry project alternatives.
What if a mother sees her son getting burned up by the stuff. No one to call, right?
What? You can't imagine a choice for that mother other than a militarized police force? (I'm done with this tangent. My point is that the war on drugs has been much more of a factor in what we are seeing than "union practices" or "public services".)

 
Condemn the looting of a CVS or the burning of a police car all you want. I'm 100% with you, all that stuff is worthy of condemnation. But seems like we should be condemning the stuff described in this article much more forcefully and frequently. Did any of the news coverage last night even bring up this huge and damning investigation from just a couple months ago?
Of course
They discussed it? Good to know. I was distracted by sports and found the news coverage of the Ferguson stuff pretty ridiculous so I opted out this time, glad to hear they're at least providing the necessary background.

 
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
The war on drugs has been a disaster. That would be a fine place to start. But are you -- or is anyone -- willing, politically, to get up in front of a crowd and say that a) the war on drugs helped create the crack epidemic and b) that we should now legalize crack and heroin?

Because that's a third rail right there.
I'd say...

Crack and heroin usage is very costly to families, to communities, to society. But criminalizing the activity hasn't prevented the epidemic nor do I believe it has reduced it. Thus no matter how one feels about the evils of usage maybe we should try to better utilize these resources than destroying our urban centers and creating the best economic opportunity for too many,
are you actually calling for the legalization of cocaine?
Yes! I generally oppose throwing resources at problems in a manner that are not only ineffective but makes the problems worst. Maybe the cost-benefits can be altered within the framework of keeping it and others illegal (maybe a more targeted approach) such that I change my mind, but I'm not holding my breath that prohibition will ever work. And I think cocaine is preferable to the random chemistry project alternatives.
What if a mother sees her son getting burned up by the stuff. No one to call, right?
What? You can't imagine a choice for that mother other than a militarized police force? (I'm done with this tangent. My point is that the war on drugs has been much more of a factor in what we are seeing than "union practices" or "public services".)
I agree it is a tangent, but yeah mothers, brothers and friends call the DA and the police when their loved one has a drug problem or if they don't want them on drugs at all.

 
Interesting. The '67 riots destroyed my city, it was before I was born but my grandparents lived on the edge of where the riots ended up. Detroit never recovered, anyone with the ability to move out did over the next 20 years and you see where it is today. The interstate system displaced many of the poorest residents in many urban areas, and then the Fair Housing Act of 1966 brought drastic changes to very segregated areas. Then the riots came, and then everyone with means left. Rinse and repeat in St Louis, Newark, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore and many more cities across the country. Long story short since I don't want to get to deep into this, we really haven't learned from what happened almost 50 years ago and we've repeated some of the mistakes that made many urban areas in this country nearly unlivable. Runaway crime, drugs, poverty, and a mentality of the populace of nothing to lose. Part of it is a policing problem but it is a societal problem and we love to just ignore our problems hoping they will dissolve on their own. Well they don't, and the destitute will have their say here and in many places all over the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?

The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
We should also maybe consider the practices that are most directly connected with the attitude currently on display. Everyone who is trying to grasp this situation should read this great Baltimore Sun invstigation into Baltimore PD police brutality from just 7 months ago. Some highlights:

Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones — jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles — head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.

And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victims — if charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching him — a beating that led the police commissioner to say he was “shocked.”

Such beatings, in which the victims are most often African-Americans, carry a hefty cost. They can poison relationships between police and the community, limiting cooperation in the fight against crime, the mayor and police officials say. They also divert money in the city budget — the $5.7 million in taxpayer funds paid out since January 2011 would cover the price of a state-of-the-art rec center or renovations at more than 30 playgrounds. And that doesn’t count the $5.8 million spent by the city on legal fees to defend these claims brought against police.
Condemn the looting of a CVS or the burning of a police car all you want. I'm 100% with you, all that stuff is worthy of condemnation. But seems like we should be condemning the stuff described in this article much more forcefully and frequently. Did any of the news coverage last night even bring up this huge and damning investigation from just a couple months ago?
No question. The tough thing is when you have a black Democratic mayor and a black police commissioner, is the real issue race? Maybe, but it seems odd. I think we're talking about a whole lot more than just race and it's time we realize that. This affects everyone, and making it primarily about race actually minimizes the problem and makes it less likely to be addressed properly.

 
tobias i only watched for a couple of hours on and off but i did not hear any mention of it on cnn or fox i was flipping between those two

 
I didn't get to see any news this AM, is this squashed yet? Rioters sleeping it off, lion corralled, all that?

 
Apparently a senior center run by a church was one of the buildings burned. That's really sad, a lot if grandmas in that area probably really loved that place.
It wasn't even open yet.
:lmao:

But but imagine poor granny walking six miles through the stifling 100 degree heat on a cracked cane and no water just for a can of Ensure and some bingo.
I was thinking of an elderly black woman who is a friend of mine. Yep she would walk with cane by hook or crook to get to this place almost every day:

http://judeshrine.com/st-jude-community-center/

As infirm as she was she would bake and help the sick and weak there herself, amazing. She had a lot of friends there and there are a lot of grandmas who are wonderful people there. That's the kind of place I imagined.

But it turns out this was going to be a public housing center built by a Baptist church that was just going to provide housing for the elderly. So you know you're right, now they won't have that now and that really is pretty "funny." Thanks for pointing that out.
I was laughing at you, not the situation. What makes you sure they didn't have insurance?

But as I said, drama parasites need a host.

 
Interesting. The '67 riots destroyed my city, it was before I was born but my grandparents lived on the edge of where the riots ended up. Detroit never recovered, anyone with the ability to move out did over the next 20 years and you see where it is today. The interstate system displaced many of the poorest residents in many urban areas, and then the Fair Housing Act of 1966 brought drastic changes to very segregated areas. Then the riots came, and then everyone with means left. Rinse and repeat in St Louis, Newark, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore and many more cities across the country. Long story short since I don't want to get to deep into this, we really haven't learned from what happened almost 50 years ago and we've repeated some of the mistakes that made many urban areas in this country nearly unlivable. Runaway crime, drugs, poverty, and a mentality of the populace of nothing to lose. Part of it is a policing problem but it is a societal problem and we love to just ignore our problems hoping they will dissolve on their own. Well they don't, and the destitute will have their say here and in many places all over the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?

The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
We should also maybe consider the practices that are most directly connected with the attitude currently on display. Everyone who is trying to grasp this situation should read this great Baltimore Sun invstigation into Baltimore PD police brutality from just 7 months ago. Some highlights:

Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones — jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles — head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.

And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victims — if charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching him — a beating that led the police commissioner to say he was “shocked.”

Such beatings, in which the victims are most often African-Americans, carry a hefty cost. They can poison relationships between police and the community, limiting cooperation in the fight against crime, the mayor and police officials say. They also divert money in the city budget — the $5.7 million in taxpayer funds paid out since January 2011 would cover the price of a state-of-the-art rec center or renovations at more than 30 playgrounds. And that doesn’t count the $5.8 million spent by the city on legal fees to defend these claims brought against police.
Condemn the looting of a CVS or the burning of a police car all you want. I'm 100% with you, all that stuff is worthy of condemnation. But seems like we should be condemning the stuff described in this article much more forcefully and frequently. Did any of the news coverage last night even bring up this huge and damning investigation from just a couple months ago?
No question. The tough thing is when you have a black Democratic mayor and a black police commissioner, is the real issue race? Maybe, but it seems odd. I think we're talking about a whole lot more than just race and it's time we realize that. This affects everyone, and making it primarily about race actually minimizes the problem and makes it less likely to be addressed properly.
The Mayor and the commissioner are pretty much powerless against the rank-and-file police. Look what happened to the mayor in NYC when he did anything other than support them 100%. They literally stopped doing their jobs.

It's not all racial, to be sure. But the fact that our police are militarize and operate virtually free from consequence, and yes, are frequently discriminatory, is a much bigger problem than looting. The media and the rest of us should treat it that way.

 
Apparently a senior center run by a church was one of the buildings burned. That's really sad, a lot if grandmas in that area probably really loved that place.
It wasn't even open yet.
:lmao:

But but imagine poor granny walking six miles through the stifling 100 degree heat on a cracked cane and no water just for a can of Ensure and some bingo.
I was thinking of an elderly black woman who is a friend of mine. Yep she would walk with cane by hook or crook to get to this place almost every day:

http://judeshrine.com/st-jude-community-center/

As infirm as she was she would bake and help the sick and weak there herself, amazing. She had a lot of friends there and there are a lot of grandmas who are wonderful people there. That's the kind of place I imagined.

But it turns out this was going to be a public housing center built by a Baptist church that was just going to provide housing for the elderly. So you know you're right, now they won't have that now and that really is pretty "funny." Thanks for pointing that out.
I love how your heart breaks for poor granny when the situation fits your agenda. Meanwhile we have millions suffering routinely in poverty and deplorable conditions all over the country and your response is something like "GET A JOBN LOSERS!"

Seriously. Piss off. Go shed your crocodile tears somewhere else. You couldn't give a crap about granny. You just want to get on the cross.

 
The war on drugs has been a complete failure and an obscene waste of money. Legalization and taking all that wasted money on failed efforts to eliminate the flow of drugs into this country and applying it towards addiction treatment and education seems a better way. I have a hard time thinking it would make the situation worse.

 
Apparently a senior center run by a church was one of the buildings burned. That's really sad, a lot if grandmas in that area probably really loved that place.
It wasn't even open yet.
:lmao:

But but imagine poor granny walking six miles through the stifling 100 degree heat on a cracked cane and no water just for a can of Ensure and some bingo.
I was thinking of an elderly black woman who is a friend of mine. Yep she would walk with cane by hook or crook to get to this place almost every day:

http://judeshrine.com/st-jude-community-center/

As infirm as she was she would bake and help the sick and weak there herself, amazing. She had a lot of friends there and there are a lot of grandmas who are wonderful people there. That's the kind of place I imagined.

But it turns out this was going to be a public housing center built by a Baptist church that was just going to provide housing for the elderly. So you know you're right, now they won't have that now and that really is pretty "funny." Thanks for pointing that out.
I love how your heart breaks for poor granny when the situation fits your agenda. Meanwhile we have millions suffering routinely in poverty and deplorable conditions all over the country and your response is something like "GET A JOBN LOSERS!"

Seriously. Piss off. Go shed your crocodile tears somewhere else. You couldn't give a crap about granny. You just want to get on the cross.
I don't read everything the guy posts but I've NEVER gotten anything close to this vibe from Saints. Maybe you mistook him for someone else?

 
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The drug war is a huge contributor to the overall problem, no doubt about it.

But if there was no drug war our inner cities would still be dominated by blacks, their employment and education issues would still be highly problematic, and I suspect the systemic police racism would still exist.

 
Interesting. The '67 riots destroyed my city, it was before I was born but my grandparents lived on the edge of where the riots ended up. Detroit never recovered, anyone with the ability to move out did over the next 20 years and you see where it is today. The interstate system displaced many of the poorest residents in many urban areas, and then the Fair Housing Act of 1966 brought drastic changes to very segregated areas. Then the riots came, and then everyone with means left. Rinse and repeat in St Louis, Newark, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore and many more cities across the country. Long story short since I don't want to get to deep into this, we really haven't learned from what happened almost 50 years ago and we've repeated some of the mistakes that made many urban areas in this country nearly unlivable. Runaway crime, drugs, poverty, and a mentality of the populace of nothing to lose. Part of it is a policing problem but it is a societal problem and we love to just ignore our problems hoping they will dissolve on their own. Well they don't, and the destitute will have their say here and in many places all over the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?

The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
We should also maybe consider the practices that are most directly connected with the attitude currently on display. Everyone who is trying to grasp this situation should read this great Baltimore Sun invstigation into Baltimore PD police brutality from just 7 months ago. Some highlights:

Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones — jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles — head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.

And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victims — if charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching him — a beating that led the police commissioner to say he was “shocked.”

Such beatings, in which the victims are most often African-Americans, carry a hefty cost. They can poison relationships between police and the community, limiting cooperation in the fight against crime, the mayor and police officials say. They also divert money in the city budget — the $5.7 million in taxpayer funds paid out since January 2011 would cover the price of a state-of-the-art rec center or renovations at more than 30 playgrounds. And that doesn’t count the $5.8 million spent by the city on legal fees to defend these claims brought against police.
Condemn the looting of a CVS or the burning of a police car all you want. I'm 100% with you, all that stuff is worthy of condemnation. But seems like we should be condemning the stuff described in this article much more forcefully and frequently. Did any of the news coverage last night even bring up this huge and damning investigation from just a couple months ago?
No question. The tough thing is when you have a black Democratic mayor and a black police commissioner, is the real issue race? Maybe, but it seems odd. I think we're talking about a whole lot more than just race and it's time we realize that. This affects everyone, and making it primarily about race actually minimizes the problem and makes it less likely to be addressed properly.
It's about class and poverty. We've adopted policy over the last fourty years that creates these environments. Crushed unions. Refused to pay a living wage. Systematically deprived entire neighborhoods of investment.

The cops were originally created to protect the rich from the poor. That's pretty much what they are doing to this day. so you have more rich and more poor you are going to see this more and more. People who feel invested in society and that they have a fair chance don't riot.

Saw a tweet that was interesting.

1) Ferguson was in the flyover, but Baltimore is right along the DC-NYC Axis of Acela. Every train goes through West Baltimore.

2) And every pol, pundit, think tank guru, hedge fund manager or other assorted VSP who rides those trains is gonna be thinking "What if..."

3) Which means now that WHCD is out of the way, & the Hive Mind has grasped that this is really happening, the MSM freakout will be awesome.

 
The war on drugs has been a complete failure and an obscene waste of money. Legalization and taking all that wasted money on failed efforts to eliminate the flow of drugs into this country and applying it towards addiction treatment and education seems a better way. I have a hard time thinking it would make the situation worse.
No way man... why would we want to cripple the mexican cartels, fix our prison overcrowding issues, and potentially decrease the racial tensions all in one fell swoop? the DEA will have none of that.

 
It's about class and poverty. We've adopted policy over the last fourty years that creates these environments. Crushed unions. Refused to pay a living wage. Systematically deprived entire neighborhoods of investment.
Long term it has significantly more to do with the breakdown of the family structure, particularly in these poor neighborhoods. And, frankly, we have lots of government incentives to stay unwed and have children out of wedlock.



The cops were originally created to protect the rich from the poor. That's pretty much what they are doing to this day. so you have more rich and more poor you are going to see this more and more. People who feel invested in society and that they have a fair chance don't riot.
I disagree completely about the genesis of the police (silly bordering on ridiculous), but if you want to see real mayhem let's just have the police stop protecting the poor from the poor.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Apparently a senior center run by a church was one of the buildings burned. That's really sad, a lot if grandmas in that area probably really loved that place.
It wasn't even open yet.
:lmao:

But but imagine poor granny walking six miles through the stifling 100 degree heat on a cracked cane and no water just for a can of Ensure and some bingo.
I was thinking of an elderly black woman who is a friend of mine. Yep she would walk with cane by hook or crook to get to this place almost every day:

http://judeshrine.com/st-jude-community-center/

As infirm as she was she would bake and help the sick and weak there herself, amazing. She had a lot of friends there and there are a lot of grandmas who are wonderful people there. That's the kind of place I imagined.

But it turns out this was going to be a public housing center built by a Baptist church that was just going to provide housing for the elderly. So you know you're right, now they won't have that now and that really is pretty "funny." Thanks for pointing that out.
I love how your heart breaks for poor granny when the situation fits your agenda. Meanwhile we have millions suffering routinely in poverty and deplorable conditions all over the country and your response is something like "GET A JOBN LOSERS!"

Seriously. Piss off. Go shed your crocodile tears somewhere else. You couldn't give a crap about granny. You just want to get on the cross.
Why don't they get jobs? I've been told the economy is great.

 
Interesting. The '67 riots destroyed my city, it was before I was born but my grandparents lived on the edge of where the riots ended up. Detroit never recovered, anyone with the ability to move out did over the next 20 years and you see where it is today. The interstate system displaced many of the poorest residents in many urban areas, and then the Fair Housing Act of 1966 brought drastic changes to very segregated areas. Then the riots came, and then everyone with means left. Rinse and repeat in St Louis, Newark, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore and many more cities across the country. Long story short since I don't want to get to deep into this, we really haven't learned from what happened almost 50 years ago and we've repeated some of the mistakes that made many urban areas in this country nearly unlivable. Runaway crime, drugs, poverty, and a mentality of the populace of nothing to lose. Part of it is a policing problem but it is a societal problem and we love to just ignore our problems hoping they will dissolve on their own. Well they don't, and the destitute will have their say here and in many places all over the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?

The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
We should also maybe consider the practices that are most directly connected with the attitude currently on display. Everyone who is trying to grasp this situation should read this great Baltimore Sun invstigation into Baltimore PD police brutality from just 7 months ago. Some highlights:

Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones — jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles — head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.

And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victims — if charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching him — a beating that led the police commissioner to say he was “shocked.”

Such beatings, in which the victims are most often African-Americans, carry a hefty cost. They can poison relationships between police and the community, limiting cooperation in the fight against crime, the mayor and police officials say. They also divert money in the city budget — the $5.7 million in taxpayer funds paid out since January 2011 would cover the price of a state-of-the-art rec center or renovations at more than 30 playgrounds. And that doesn’t count the $5.8 million spent by the city on legal fees to defend these claims brought against police.
Condemn the looting of a CVS or the burning of a police car all you want. I'm 100% with you, all that stuff is worthy of condemnation. But seems like we should be condemning the stuff described in this article much more forcefully and frequently. Did any of the news coverage last night even bring up this huge and damning investigation from just a couple months ago?
No question. The tough thing is when you have a black Democratic mayor and a black police commissioner, is the real issue race? Maybe, but it seems odd. I think we're talking about a whole lot more than just race and it's time we realize that. This affects everyone, and making it primarily about race actually minimizes the problem and makes it less likely to be addressed properly.
The Mayor and the commissioner are pretty much powerless against the rank-and-file police. Look what happened to the mayor in NYC when he did anything other than support them 100%. They literally stopped doing their jobs.

It's not all racial, to be sure. But the fact that our police are militarize and operate virtually free from consequence, and yes, are frequently discriminatory, is a much bigger problem than looting. The media and the rest of us should treat it that way.
Oh, come on. That's just simply not true. And while I'm sure there are racist cops, acting like the entire rank and file of every police department in the U.S. Is racist is pretty insane.

 
The drug war is a huge contributor to the overall problem, no doubt about it.

But if there was no drug war our inner cities would still be dominated by blacks, their employment and education issues would still be highly problematic, and I suspect the systemic police racism would still exist.
If that's not a Timism, I don't know what is. Based on what? To what degree? How do you know? If you remove the drug cartel culture, you take away the most powerful influence against a responsible trajectory in the inner city of the past half century. You drastically alter the DNA. You take away the cause for many of these police/criminal interactions in the first place. You remove most of the criminality in these communities. They are largely victimless crimes anyway. Why would you assume that would not be a tremendous influence on the direction of the community and the relationships with those charged with policing those crimes? Take away the game and they'll have to find something else to do to make money. It's worth a more serious look. We're starting to look like these idiots opposed to making free condoms available to kids, with their heads in the sand just saying abstinence is the answer. It's tone deaf.

 
Can I get the Cliff's Notes on this entire event?
:goodposting:
From Wikipedia:

On April 12, 2015, 25-year-old African American Freddie Gray was taken into custody by the Baltimore Police Department for possession of a switchblade.[1] Whilst being transported, Gray had experienced what was described by officers as a "medical emergency"; within an hour of his arrest, Gray had fallen into a coma and had been taken to a trauma center, where it was determined that he had suffered from a spinal injury.[2] According to his family, Gray's spine was "80% severed" at his neck, he had three fractured vertebrae, and hislarynx was injured.[3][4] The events that led to the injuries are unclear;[3][4] Officer Garrett Miller claimed that Gray was arrested "without force or incident."[1]

Despite extensive surgery in an attempt to save his life, Gray died on April 19, 2015.[4] Pending an investigation, six Baltimore police officers were temporarily suspended with pay.[3]Police Commissioner Anthony Batts reported that the officers "failed to get [Gray] medical attention in a timely manner multiple times", and did not buckle him in the van while he was being transported to the police station.[5]

The death of Gray resulted in an ongoing series of protests and civil disorder; a major protest event in downtown Baltimore on April 25, 2015 turned violent, resulting in 34 arrests and the injuries of 15 police officers.[6] Following Gray's funeral on April 27, the unrest intensified with the looting and burning of local businesses and a CVS drug store, culminating with the deployment of the Maryland National Guard to Baltimore and declaration of a state of emergency by Governor Larry Hogan.
 
Apparently a senior center run by a church was one of the buildings burned. That's really sad, a lot if grandmas in that area probably really loved that place.
It wasn't even open yet.
:lmao:

But but imagine poor granny walking six miles through the stifling 100 degree heat on a cracked cane and no water just for a can of Ensure and some bingo.
I was thinking of an elderly black woman who is a friend of mine. Yep she would walk with cane by hook or crook to get to this place almost every day:

http://judeshrine.com/st-jude-community-center/

As infirm as she was she would bake and help the sick and weak there herself, amazing. She had a lot of friends there and there are a lot of grandmas who are wonderful people there. That's the kind of place I imagined.

But it turns out this was going to be a public housing center built by a Baptist church that was just going to provide housing for the elderly. So you know you're right, now they won't have that now and that really is pretty "funny." Thanks for pointing that out.
I love how your heart breaks for poor granny when the situation fits your agenda. Meanwhile we have millions suffering routinely in poverty and deplorable conditions all over the country and your response is something like "GET A JOBN LOSERS!"

Seriously. Piss off. Go shed your crocodile tears somewhere else. You couldn't give a crap about granny. You just want to get on the cross.
I take it y'all's concern for the loss of the housing center is real though, we know that because of the " :lmao: " at the top, which is being defended here? I don't think you mean to do that.

Major diversion, let's drop it. Thanks.

 
Saw a tweet that was interesting.1) Ferguson was in the flyover, but Baltimore is right along the DC-NYC Axis of Acela. Every train goes through West Baltimore.

2) And every pol, pundit, think tank guru, hedge fund manager or other assorted VSP who rides those trains is gonna be thinking "What if..."

3) Which means now that WHCD is out of the way, & the Hive Mind has grasped that this is really happening, the MSM freakout will be awesome.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: @ the thought of hedge fund managers taking a train.

 
The drug war is a huge contributor to the overall problem, no doubt about it.

But if there was no drug war our inner cities would still be dominated by blacks, their employment and education issues would still be highly problematic, and I suspect the systemic police racism would still exist.
If that's not a Timism, I don't know what is. Based on what? To what degree? How do you know? If you remove the drug cartel culture, you take away the most powerful influence against a responsible trajectory in the inner city of the past half century. You drastically alter the DNA. You take away the cause for many of these police/criminal interactions in the first place. You remove most of the criminality in these communities. They are largely victimless crimes anyway. Why would you assume that would not be a tremendous influence on the direction of the community and the relationships with those charged with policing those crimes? Take away the game and they'll have to find something else to do to make money. It's worth a more serious look. We're starting to look like these idiots opposed to making free condoms available to kids, with their heads in the sand just saying abstinence is the answer. It's tone deaf.
A timism? LolI don't disagree with any of your points. I am in favor of ending the drug war. I'm only suggesting that it's not going to solve all of the problems that contributed to this riot.

 
I take it y'all's concern for the loss of the housing center is real though, we know that because of the " :lmao: " at the top, which is being defended here? I don't think you mean to do that.
Major diversion, let's drop it. Thanks.
I told you, I was laughing at you, not elderly granny with a used broken cane not having a new location for her bake sale.

ETA: Which I'm sure will still come to be, though perhaps with a pushed back grand opening.

 
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I take it y'all's concern for the loss of the housing center is real though, we know that because of the " :lmao: " at the top, which is being defended here? I don't think you mean to do that.
Major diversion, let's drop it. Thanks.
I told you, I was laughing at you, not elderly granny with a used broken cane not having a new location for her bake sale.
Ok man, you can always laugh at me. The grandmas have enough trouble. Thanks.

 
No question. The tough thing is when you have a black Democratic mayor and a black police commissioner, is the real issue race? Maybe, but it seems odd. I think we're talking about a whole lot more than just race and it's time we realize that. This affects everyone, and making it primarily about race actually minimizes the problem and makes it less likely to be addressed properly.
The Mayor and the commissioner are pretty much powerless against the rank-and-file police. Look what happened to the mayor in NYC when he did anything other than support them 100%. They literally stopped doing their jobs.

It's not all racial, to be sure. But the fact that our police are militarize and operate virtually free from consequence, and yes, are frequently discriminatory, is a much bigger problem than looting. The media and the rest of us should treat it that way.
Oh, come on. That's just simply not true. And while I'm sure there are racist cops, acting like the entire rank and file of every police department in the U.S. Is racist is pretty insane.
Fair point. Powerless was an exaggeration. Maybe it's better to say they have limited influence.

And it wasn't even 10% as ridiculous as your assertion that there may not be a racial component here simply because the mayor and the police commissioner are black. That's completely absurd. Also, nobody "acted like the entire rank and file of every police department in the US is racist." That's a preposterous straw man. Maybe rein in that ridiculous nonsense before you go after me for saying "pretty much powerless" rather than "have limited influence and resources to address the problem,"

 
The Mayor and the commissioner are pretty much powerless against the rank-and-file police. Look what happened to the mayor in NYC when he did anything other than support them 100%. They literally stopped doing their jobs.

It's not all racial, to be sure. But the fact that our police are militarize and operate virtually free from consequence, and yes, are frequently discriminatory, is a much bigger problem than looting. The media and the rest of us should treat it that way.
Oh, come on. That's just simply not true. And while I'm sure there are racist cops, acting like the entire rank and file of every police department in the U.S. Is racist is pretty insane.
This is Thobias Fhunke we're talking about here... don't worry, he'll be back to backtrack as soon as anyone shows statistics to invalidate any of his ridiculous claims... Same Thobias, different thread.

 
Interesting. The '67 riots destroyed my city, it was before I was born but my grandparents lived on the edge of where the riots ended up. Detroit never recovered, anyone with the ability to move out did over the next 20 years and you see where it is today. The interstate system displaced many of the poorest residents in many urban areas, and then the Fair Housing Act of 1966 brought drastic changes to very segregated areas. Then the riots came, and then everyone with means left. Rinse and repeat in St Louis, Newark, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore and many more cities across the country. Long story short since I don't want to get to deep into this, we really haven't learned from what happened almost 50 years ago and we've repeated some of the mistakes that made many urban areas in this country nearly unlivable. Runaway crime, drugs, poverty, and a mentality of the populace of nothing to lose. Part of it is a policing problem but it is a societal problem and we love to just ignore our problems hoping they will dissolve on their own. Well they don't, and the destitute will have their say here and in many places all over the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The question is why are they destitute and do the comfortable really truly care?

The answer to the second part is clearly "no".

The answer to the first part is much more difficult and goes to much deeper issues than most are willing to acknowledge IMO.
But instead of solely the history of segregation and income inequality, one might also consider political corruption, one-party systemic rule, unsustainable public services, unsustainable union practices, and a breakdown of basic familial and social norms -- it seems like another place to start.
If we are going here shouldn't you start with the war on drugs? Has any single policy wrecked more havoc on our urban centers the past 45 years?
We should also maybe consider the practices that are most directly connected with the attitude currently on display. Everyone who is trying to grasp this situation should read this great Baltimore Sun invstigation into Baltimore PD police brutality from just 7 months ago. Some highlights:

Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones — jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles — head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.

And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victims — if charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching him — a beating that led the police commissioner to say he was “shocked.”

Such beatings, in which the victims are most often African-Americans, carry a hefty cost. They can poison relationships between police and the community, limiting cooperation in the fight against crime, the mayor and police officials say. They also divert money in the city budget — the $5.7 million in taxpayer funds paid out since January 2011 would cover the price of a state-of-the-art rec center or renovations at more than 30 playgrounds. And that doesn’t count the $5.8 million spent by the city on legal fees to defend these claims brought against police.
Condemn the looting of a CVS or the burning of a police car all you want. I'm 100% with you, all that stuff is worthy of condemnation. But seems like we should be condemning the stuff described in this article much more forcefully and frequently. Did any of the news coverage last night even bring up this huge and damning investigation from just a couple months ago?
No question. The tough thing is when you have a black Democratic mayor and a black police commissioner, is the real issue race? Maybe, but it seems odd. I think we're talking about a whole lot more than just race and it's time we realize that. This affects everyone, and making it primarily about race actually minimizes the problem and makes it less likely to be addressed properly.
No ####. class > race....and that's argument MLK started to make before he was killed. Unfortunately, everyone talks about race when it really should be about class.

 
A star I heard on the radio; only 27% of the Baltimore police live in Baltimore. So this is part of the problem, as they're perceived as an occupying force rather than part of the community.

 
Really a shame.

I can somewhat understand racial frustrations....but protest and riot at the police precincts, government buildings and political locations.

Looting local stores and causing damage and destruction to your own community just solidifies and shows America you people really don't care about Freddy Gray or police brutality it's just a good reason to wile out and tear #### up.

Direct your anger and frustration (even if violent and aggressive) towards the authority you put so much blame on, not Jamal's Liquor store on N16th ave.

 
No question. The tough thing is when you have a black Democratic mayor and a black police commissioner, is the real issue race? Maybe, but it seems odd. I think we're talking about a whole lot more than just race and it's time we realize that. This affects everyone, and making it primarily about race actually minimizes the problem and makes it less likely to be addressed properly.
The Mayor and the commissioner are pretty much powerless against the rank-and-file police. Look what happened to the mayor in NYC when he did anything other than support them 100%. They literally stopped doing their jobs.It's not all racial, to be sure. But the fact that our police are militarize and operate virtually free from consequence, and yes, are frequently discriminatory, is a much bigger problem than looting. The media and the rest of us should treat it that way.
Oh, come on. That's just simply not true. And while I'm sure there are racist cops, acting like the entire rank and file of every police department in the U.S. Is racist is pretty insane.
Fair point. Powerless was an exaggeration. Maybe it's better to say they have limited influence.

And it wasn't even 10% as ridiculous as your assertion that there may not be a racial component here simply because the mayor and the police commissioner are black. That's completely absurd. Also, nobody "acted like the entire rank and file of every police department in the US is racist." That's a preposterous straw man. Maybe rein in that ridiculous nonsense before you go after me for saying "pretty much powerless" rather than "have limited influence and resources to address the problem,"
So we don't have a national problem of police mistreating blacks?

 
A star I heard on the radio; only 27% of the Baltimore police live in Baltimore. So this is part of the problem, as they're perceived as an occupying force rather than part of the community.
They are perceived as authority.

That is the main problem when you are a criminal, which many of the people in the inner city who have issues with the police are....how they became criminals is a valid discussion to have on the opportunities available to help people succeed.

I don't believe it matters where the police live, it's how they act and conduct themselves on the job that determines how the community will view your police force.

 
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A star I heard on the radio; only 27% of the Baltimore police live in Baltimore. So this is part of the problem, as they're perceived as an occupying force rather than part of the

community.
My sense is that is probably in line with most cities
Wouldnt doubt it, at least for inner cities. But it creates s completely different vibe than in my community or, I would guess, many of the people here. When the police live among us, we see them as part of us, our protectors. We trust them.
 
I agree it is a tangent, but yeah mothers, brothers and friends call the DA and the police when their loved one has a drug problem or if they don't want them on drugs at all.
What? Please. A white middle-class mom might call police if she finds dope in her kid's room. Nobody else is calling police because their family is addicted to crack.

 

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