TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't really get this one, Tommy. Rich has always been reasonable and respectful in my experience.
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Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gary Coal Man
- Start date
msommer
Footballguy
What an innocuous sentence.
Pray tell, how were the six Baltimore cops now indicted serving Freddie Gray (a member of the public)?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Hey you know what, you're right. You can hire more, right? Sadly what happens is these types quit and you don't get new replacements very easily. It turns out that being a cop and wanting to be one takes a very particular psychological profile. It's not like you lay off 50 people at the tuna factory and then a year later just put out an ad to replace them when the market is better. Overall the total police force will likely decrease as a result of all this.
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Rich Conway
Footballguy
Meh, that cost will be partially, if not completely, offset by reduced insurance premiums and/or settlements in police brutality and other misconduct lawsuits.
From 2011 to 2014, Baltimore averaged $1.5M per year in police brutality settlements alone.
jonessed
Footballguy
There's a lot of blame to go around; bad cops, criminals, and rioters/looters. I would throw in parts of the media and politicians as well.The good people on both sides get dragged into the fray and labeled, but when people generalize that's what happens.
And most unfortunately, the lines have already been drawn without anyone actually knowing what happened.
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Sweet J
Footballguy
Well I gave one proposed (non-racism related) reason for less police presence in upper- and upper-middle class neighborhoods: That the residents of those neighborhoods would pressure the city officials to back off.
So even if we see the police as a non-racist constant (i.e., preference to have a more active presence in all neighborhoods regardless of socio-economic class), my (untested) theory is that that they would get pushback from wealthier neighborhoods that they don't get in poor neighborhoods (another thought: Maybe the "law abiding" residents in lower-class neighborhoods welcome police presence, which would be another reason that politicians wouldn't get pushback).
Just really thinking out loud here.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
That's over 4 years. That's a very holistic way of looking at things but even if you eliminated all of it it still leaves millions.
I will add that the local SA/DA criminalizing false arrest probably leads to more lawsuits, not fewer.
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jonessed
Footballguy
I don't mind seeing the police around. In fact, I like it. My thoughts on that have remained the same from when we moved from a poor/middle-class neighborhood to a middle-class/wealthy neighborhood. I actually see a lot more cops now than I did previously. I wish the opposite was true, but my current city can afford more cops so more are here.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
You need to have enough to cover all neighborhoods.
the rich want the cops nearby, actually all the "good" people want cops nearby but not all can get them. - Here the complaint is actually that the police are in the rich neighborhoods (which are often just blocks from the "bad" neighborhoods); so while the poor single elderly lady living in a shotgun crib can't get someone to help her get the dealer off her street there's a cop 10 blocks away doing nothing but watching the foot traffic outside mansions.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I would love to see the cops just all walk off the job. Kind of a "If you can do it better, go for it" type of strike. I'm guessing it would only take a couple of days before people had a whole new respect for cops.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
You're comparing the first year costs against average costs. I suspect the first year costs of cameras will be higher than subsequent years.
It is possible that criminalizing false arrest leads to more lawsuits, but I suspect that fewer false arrests in the first place due to the presence of body cameras will more than offset that.
A few million for body cameras seems like a small price to pay for what should result in vastly improved police work. Granted, maybe the improvement won't be immediate because the existing officers throw a hissy fit, but there should be significant improvements over time.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Look I agree the cost should be paid. People just talk about the reform and then are shocked by the sticker. We're all talking about this but it's going to fall on Baltimore.
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msommer
Footballguy
G
General Tso
Guest
I think you raise a good point. The cops view the law abiding citizens as their "customer" - not the folks who dabble in the wrong side of the law if you will. And that needs to change as well. Might sound silly, but the model I like to point to is Dog the Bounty Hunter. HIs attitudes towards the people he tracks down show the right balance of firmness and compassion. Of course it's easy for me to say cops should have such attitudes. I'm not dealing with these people every day like they are. But clearly there needs to be a softer approach, dare I say compassionate, from the police to criminals. It's such an important job. A cop shouldn't be hated, even by criminals. Respected, and maybe even feared, but not hated.
The_Man
Footballguy
What leads you to think that?
There's been one spasm of violence, on that Monday afternoon and evening. Things are chill here. People were commenting on this thread that the Prince concert would be trouble. Turns out the only trouble was the state's attorney having too much fun on stage.
Preakness will be no bigger a #### show than usual, maybe even a little less if out-of-towners are dissuaded from venturing to Baltimore.
I will say there are few things more "Baltimore" than watching the the backstretch of the Preakness on TV, when you can suddenly see brick rowhouses and a heavily trafficked stretch of Northern Parkway at the perimeter of the aerial shot. I love the incongruity. If I lived in one of the houses that you can briefly see, I would sit out on the back porch in a pair of cutoffs and wife-beater, because that would complete the image.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
In my observation, what happens in black areas is that they do not get the police protection they really need. If you're poor person living in a black neighborhood you're not getting the cops to respond to you like a rich person in a great neighborhood.
Yes the cops may come through, arrest a bad guy. When I say bad guy I mean a murderer, someone to be genuinely frightened of, the kind of person that if they showed up at your door you'd piss your pants, especially if you did not have a gun or were weak in some way.
What happens? The judicial system turns the guy back out on the street, he comes looking for you and yours. What happens then, are the cops there to watch your neighborhood and you 24/7? No, they are not. You're extremely vulnerable. So can you blame people for not leaning on the cops, not trusting them?
It's just not that easy to say oh hey x, y or z group should trust the cops or work with them. The problems of crime have way outstripped the abilities of cops to police. We compensate, since the Clinton years, by over-incarcerating people, and you know what that has actually helped lower crime rates to some extent. But what we get are cops who do desperate things to enforce their authority. Cities aren't willing to pay for more cops and/or reforms. Black political leaders get populist and say the cops over-enforce and ask them to back off while their own constituents are the main victims of crime, white political leaders take calls from rich people who want their wealthier neighborhoods policed and protected at the expense of poor neighborhoods. And meanwhile the tax base shrinks because the perception is of blight and unsafe neighborhoods and the poorer neighborhoods object to gentrification, which are just attempts for people and business to develop the inner city which you know would expand the tax base which would pay for reforms.
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msommer
Footballguy
In their conduct ob the street they are also required to uphold the civil rights of the prople with whom they interact, even the people they may wish to apprehend.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/05/11/baltimore-the-consequences-of-planning-that-isolates-neighborhoods/
One thing I know about in Baltimore is the use of eminent domain to build the biomedical district.
As I understand blocks of poor, historic neighborhoods got torn down for what were to be gleaming, shiny biomedical corridor. What happened is that of course there were lots of construction contracts that made some very important people very rich, but the promises of the district have been way under-met. I could be wrong about that, but this kind of thing seems like the worst case scenario and decision making for cities that decide to amputate their appendages rather than restoring blood flow to the arteries. Maybe I'm wrong, as I realize the Baltimore citizens here may feel differently.
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The_Man
Footballguy
It's Gilmor. Not that it isn't already clear the author is wandering the streets of Sandtown like some kind of anthropologist investigating a strange and foreign land.
What else explains his utter shock upon making a discovery so noteworthy that he repeats it twice, that people in the neighborhood actually bike and walk, just like people in America?
The East Baltimore Development project hasn't really materialized, but it's truly not a major deal in all of Baltimore's woes. It didn't even get started until about 2002, by which point all the terrible stuff we've talked about - poverty, drugs, white flight, skyrocketing crime, terrible schools, an astronomical tax rate - was completely entrenched. The EBDI project was actually an initiative to try and harness Hopkins and the City together in a public-private partnership that will help restore the blighted neighborhood around Hopkins Hospital. It hasn't really worked, but a failed cure is much different from the disease itself.
Sand
Footballguy
It has more to do with informing the public as to what can become a deadly situation. Fight or flight response is humans' deepest behavioral response. And humans can move a lot quicker and take more punishment than the populace (in general) thinks is possible.
So, honestly, this one is pure bull####.
Funny you pick out Ferguson, in which the officer was absolved locally and federally. And yet in Baltimore, where the makeup does reflect the community better, that incident caused the populace to respond differently how, exactly?
Agreed on cameras and drug policy.
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Dr Oadi
Footballguy
Even those who are expected to be better have a breaking point.
Dr Oadi
Footballguy
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I went to the Prince show in BMore. The Mosby part was really minor, and went quickly.
Two things stuck out at me from the show. 1) Prince killed it. Probably the best guitar playing I've ever seen live, and that was within the first 5 mins. 2) This show was probably the most diverse and integrated event I've ever seen in BMore. White, black, young, old, long haired rock fans, and hip hop heads all in one place. The show had no opening act and went from 8:30 - 11:30. He even played the first few bars of "Darling Nikki" before moving off into something else. The crowd went nuts for about 3 seconds. Great show.
Two things stuck out at me from the show. 1) Prince killed it. Probably the best guitar playing I've ever seen live, and that was within the first 5 mins. 2) This show was probably the most diverse and integrated event I've ever seen in BMore. White, black, young, old, long haired rock fans, and hip hop heads all in one place. The show had no opening act and went from 8:30 - 11:30. He even played the first few bars of "Darling Nikki" before moving off into something else. The crowd went nuts for about 3 seconds. Great show.
G
General Tso
Guest
Good article in the NY Times on the emerging Defense arguments - http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/us/freddie-gray-baltimore-police.html?_r=0
Interesting note about the recent court case in Maryland exonerating police officers from a wrongful arrest charge. Also what appears to be new news about a policy enacted 9 days earlier that the cops had to provide medical assistance when asked for by the suspect. First I had heard of that. But it looks like this new procedure, in addition to having to buckle in suspects, appears to have been buried in a 15 page memo.
Interesting note about the recent court case in Maryland exonerating police officers from a wrongful arrest charge. Also what appears to be new news about a policy enacted 9 days earlier that the cops had to provide medical assistance when asked for by the suspect. First I had heard of that. But it looks like this new procedure, in addition to having to buckle in suspects, appears to have been buried in a 15 page memo.
timschochet
Footballguy
The defense faces other potential hurdles. The 1997 general order requires officers to seek medical treatment for detainees “when necessary,” but the April 3 revisions go further, requiring treatment “when requested.”
Ms. Mosby said the officers ignored Mr. Gray’s repeated complaints of breathing problems and requests for a doctor. During the van’s next-to-last stop, she said, three officers who checked on him did not summon help even though he was “unresponsive on the floor.”
Not until officers tried to remove Mr. Gray from the van at the police station did they realize he had stopped breathing and called an ambulance, she said.''
To me, this is the biggest hurdle the defense has to face. Despite all of the other potential problems with the prosecutions' case- the knife, the search, buckling in requirements, etc- the defendants are very likely to go down simply based on the bolded fact. And they probably should.
Ms. Mosby said the officers ignored Mr. Gray’s repeated complaints of breathing problems and requests for a doctor. During the van’s next-to-last stop, she said, three officers who checked on him did not summon help even though he was “unresponsive on the floor.”
Not until officers tried to remove Mr. Gray from the van at the police station did they realize he had stopped breathing and called an ambulance, she said.''
To me, this is the biggest hurdle the defense has to face. Despite all of the other potential problems with the prosecutions' case- the knife, the search, buckling in requirements, etc- the defendants are very likely to go down simply based on the bolded fact. And they probably should.
G
General Tso
Guest
I agree, Tim. I think they'll try to argue that the cops weren't aware of the new 9 day old edict, which was buried in a 15 page document, but in the end I don't think this will matter - at least with regard to the manslaughter and lesser reckless endangerment type charges. The cops were clearly negligent in this regard and they deserve to be punished for it. I will be very disappointed and surprised if they get off, even if they are successful in showing they weren't adequately advised about the new edict. It's common sense to get a human being medical attention when he or she is dying, and that's exactly what was going on with Freddie Gray.
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G
General Tso
Guest
4 people shot before the race. Homicides up 40% this year. They're starting to call it the "Baltimore Spring". http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bal-4-shot-in-e-baltimore-two-hours-before-preakness-20150516-story.html
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
@justin_fenton: Looks like the 4 ppl shot on Broadway will survive:
-Woman, 36, shot in foot
-Woman, 27, chest
-Man, 30, stomach,leg
-Man, 23, ankle
-Woman, 36, shot in foot
-Woman, 27, chest
-Man, 30, stomach,leg
-Man, 23, ankle
G
General Tso
Guest
Mosby seeking gag order against defense team... https://www.ijreview.com/2015/05/323195-marilyn-mosby-still-standing-critics-literally-trying-silence/
Looks like someone has rabbit ears.
Looks like someone has rabbit ears.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Sweet J
Footballguy
False narrative.
Per the Wash Post, there were 220 homicides in Baltimore last year. It sounds like there have been 96 homicides in the 140-odd days from Jan to Feb. I'd probably not use the term "alarming surge" to describe the difference. (probably be interested in the numbers over the last 5 years or so). Media once again is going sensational. You people are funny. The media "sensationalizes" things at very convenient times for you.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Or you could understand how "surge" is being correctly used. The media is not primarily emphasizing a surge in murders from 2014 to 2015. The media is primarily emphasizing a surge in murders since the riots last month. With that said, Baltimore murder is up since last year.
Here....
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rockaction
Footballguy
Not sure anybody wants to argue in Baltimore's favor. Doesn't seem like a false narrative when people are comparing neighborhood life expectancy to North Korea.
Yeah, I know it's all about income inequality, but I'm not buying that.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/30/baltimores-poorest-residents-die-20-years-earlier-than-its-richest/
Yeah, I know it's all about income inequality, but I'm not buying that.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/30/baltimores-poorest-residents-die-20-years-earlier-than-its-richest/
CBusAlex
Footballguy
Well, so much for the whole "it's only a few bad apples, most cops are good cops" thing.
jonessed
Footballguy
CBusAlex
Footballguy
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
Murders rise in the warm months, so using ytd numbers makes sense.
The_Man
Footballguy
I like to think that I keep a very clear-eyed and well-informed perspective when it comes to Baltimore, with my love of the city and hope for its future tempered by a realistic assessment of its conditions.
With that as a preface, let me say that I think there is a significant and highly troubling spike in violence and homicide underway, that started before the April 27 disturbance but has increased dramatically since.
For starters, if you want to know what's really going on here, read The Baltimore Sun, not the Washington Post, and certainly not any national media outlet. The Sun has been decimated by Tribune budget cuts in recent years, but their metro staff has been doing Pulitzer-worthy work for almost a month now. Every day, they are on it. From a story in yesterday's paper:
Meanwhile, as the worst spasm of fatal violence in perhaps the history of the City of Baltimore is ongoing, our idiot Mayor appears on TV from Preakness, wearing a ludicrous hat and talking about "we can all take a deep breath" now that things have gotten back to normal following the Freddie Gray case.
Well, they have gotten back to normal for her and her constituents - the rich, the powerful, and the downtown developers. Many out-of-town people might jump to conclusions about the Mayor's background because she is African-American, but the reality is that her mother is a physician, her father was the Appropriations Chair in the Maryland House of Delegates for decades, and she grew up in a very privileged world of wealth. She went to Oberlin, for crying out loud.
So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested. Why the violence? Have the police stopped policing? Don't ask the Mayor, as she's showing the same kind of leadership now as she did during the riots themselves - which is to say none whatsoever.
I'm as concerned right now about Baltimore as I have been in a long time, and it's not about any riots. It's about a total breakdown in public safety and what that could portend for a long, hot and violent summer.
With that as a preface, let me say that I think there is a significant and highly troubling spike in violence and homicide underway, that started before the April 27 disturbance but has increased dramatically since.
For starters, if you want to know what's really going on here, read The Baltimore Sun, not the Washington Post, and certainly not any national media outlet. The Sun has been decimated by Tribune budget cuts in recent years, but their metro staff has been doing Pulitzer-worthy work for almost a month now. Every day, they are on it. From a story in yesterday's paper:
I think there have been 37 homicides in the last 30 days. That's a higher rate than there's ever been, even before O'Malley was voted in as Mayor to clean things up. Also, as far as I can ascertain, I think there have been literally ZERO arrests in these cases over the last month. Just in case you missed that, there have been ZERO arrests in 37 murders over the last month.
Meanwhile, as the worst spasm of fatal violence in perhaps the history of the City of Baltimore is ongoing, our idiot Mayor appears on TV from Preakness, wearing a ludicrous hat and talking about "we can all take a deep breath" now that things have gotten back to normal following the Freddie Gray case.
Well, they have gotten back to normal for her and her constituents - the rich, the powerful, and the downtown developers. Many out-of-town people might jump to conclusions about the Mayor's background because she is African-American, but the reality is that her mother is a physician, her father was the Appropriations Chair in the Maryland House of Delegates for decades, and she grew up in a very privileged world of wealth. She went to Oberlin, for crying out loud.
So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested. Why the violence? Have the police stopped policing? Don't ask the Mayor, as she's showing the same kind of leadership now as she did during the riots themselves - which is to say none whatsoever.
I'm as concerned right now about Baltimore as I have been in a long time, and it's not about any riots. It's about a total breakdown in public safety and what that could portend for a long, hot and violent summer.
Sweet J
Footballguy
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
The_Man
Footballguy
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Yeah, but every major sporting event has The Haves and The Have-Nots in attendance. The Preakness has way more Have-Nots than Haves, and a higher percentage of Have-Nots than other major sporting events with higher ticket prices.
Besides, shouldn't the rich be able to go to sporting events unmolested? And the reason why people don't care about Baltimore post-riot is not because rich people can now go to sporting events unmolested. It's because people realize that they're not responsible for Baltimore's violence, they can't do anything about it, and it doesn't directly affect them. I'm sure there's a fatigue factor as well.
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The_Man
Footballguy
I truly have no idea what point you are trying to make. For starters, the famed Running of the Urinals at the Preakness was in 2008, and the event has been dramatically changed since then. But that's completely irrelevant to what I was talking about, which is:
1. People speculated here that Preakness would be marred by riots and/or intense security would be necessary to prevent outbreaks of violent protests. Those things didn't happen.
2. The success of Preakness, along with big Orioles crowds - just a couple of weeks after games were cancelled and one played before an empty ballpark - are just a couple prominent examples that life is pretty much back to normal for the more affluent residents of Baltimore.
3. There is an unprecedented spike in homicides and shootings going on right now throughout the city of Baltimore. So life is still certainly not back to normal for Baltimore residents in poorer areas, particularly the West Side.
4. I don't expect you or "people" to care about violence in Baltimore. But I expect the Mayor to care deeply. However, because #2 and 3 above are true, she doesn't really care about #4 - as she said in interviews at the Preakness.
matttyl
Footballguy
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Nope, but I've been to The Preakness. $70 infield tickets for 15 races and about seven music acts including two major headliners. Approximately eight hours of fun from gates open until the end of the big race for $70. Hardly a ball-busting ticket price for everything you get.
But those high Daytona ticket prices support my point that The Preakness has a far higher percentage of Have-Nots than nearly all major sporting events.
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matttyl
Footballguy
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Since The_Man emphasized "the rich" attending The Preakness or the O's game you'll have to ask him why he singled out that group rather than the majority of the people attending those events.matttyl said:
My point was to counter the point I believed he had made. Namely: (1) most people at those two events are not rich; and (2) the ability to attend Baltimore sporting events unscathed, whether rich or poor, is not why the average Marylander doesn't truly care about violence in certain sections of Baltimore.
The_Man later clarified that he was discussing Stephanie Rawlings-Blake's mindset rather than the average Marylander's mindset; and (I'm guessing) that the Mayor would feel more compelled to protect the minority at those events (the rich) rather than the majority (middle class) since the rich have more sway on politics and society.
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The_Man
Footballguy
I think I said it the first time:
I can assure you that if there had been protests or violence at the Preakness, the Mayor would not be talking about breathing a sigh of relief. But since there weren't, she is apparently very relieved by 37 homicides in 30 days.The_Man said:
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Agreed with the highlighted. You did spell it out the first time; but, in haste, I didn't digest your point. Classic case of arguing two different points because there's no mutual assent of the minds.
With that said, I agree that you made a point which I failed to recognize, but I don't necessarily believe that Rawlings-Blake is fine with the current level of violence. How could a rational mayor be?* Rawlings-Blake may have intimated that she's comfortable the current state of post-riot Baltimore, but she may have competing interests for not highlighting Baltimore's spike in violence during an interview at a national event.
Perhaps she wanted to reassure a national audience that Baltimore is back to normal so that potential tourists and event planners (and the money they bring which the city depends on) can feel comfortable that Baltimore is a safe place to visit.
Perhaps she is trying to put on a brave face to engender confidence in Baltimore's citizens and workers who may not be as aware of the spike in violence as you or me.
Or perhaps, for her own career purposes, Rawlings-Blake doesn't want to highlight that she's helming a sinking ship.
There can be several reasons for the Mayor's apparent indifference during that particular interview other than Rawlings-Blake cares more about rich business interests more than black-on-black violence; but, sure, that is also a possibility.
* I'm open to the possibility that Rawlings-Blake is irrational.
The_Man
Footballguy
A lot of us here in Baltimore really aren't sure what to think about her right now. Like, seriously, it's a mystery. I have already posted you that some people believe she let the riots get out of control, waiting for the Governor to send in the National Guard on his own volition, so that she wouldn't have to be the bad guy calling in troops on her own city and leaving him to take the blame if things went bad. It's certainly plausible, considering she was nowhere to be seen or heard for hours that Monday as things increasingly got out of control.
Then she imposed the curfew for a full week, long after it was needed.
And now she's seemingly either paralyzed by, or immune to, the incredible spike in homicides and shootings taking place over the last month. She is a creature of the ruling class, and she has evinced far more angst and concern for the property destroyed on April 27 (and remember, there were no deaths associated with the riots) than she has for any of the lives lost since. By the time the next election rolls around, she will have served as Mayor for 6 years despite only being elected once - about 18 months after she assumed office following the previous Mayor's conviction. She is so far in over her head at this point, it's hard to say what she's doing. Her current strategy for the murder outbreak is to ignore it and hope it either goes away or nobody notices it. So far, it seems like most people aren't noticing it because it's not affecting their neighborhoods and they're just glad there's no more rioting
