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Baltimore: The Next Ferguson?


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Excellent post. Are you off your meds this morning?

I keep telling you I'm a libertarian, not a conservative. And not a Bill Maher or Bill O'Reilly libertarian, who only say it because they think it's cool. I am an actual libertarian.

Yeah, I don't really get this one, Tommy. Rich has always been reasonable and respectful in my experience.

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I don't begrudge anyone their right to say whatever they want. I just come at this thread from the totally opposite point of view from most of the posters. Most of you don't care about Baltimore, you

Anyone reading this thread knows my point of view. I think a number of police officers essentially ended the life of a man who wasn't breaking any laws, and need to be held accountable for that crime.

Yes, that is an oversimplification, and likely also a mischaracterization.    People aren't arguing that environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  Most people are arguing that they're

Ultimately the cops serve the public. If the public wants them to crack down they do. If the public wants them to back off, they do that as well.

What an innocuous sentence.

Pray tell, how were the six Baltimore cops now indicted serving Freddie Gray (a member of the public)?

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f the cops who don't think they can perform their duties without shooting unarmed civilians in the back or murdering them while in custody no longer want to do their jobs for fear of actually getting prosecuted for these crimes, that strikes me as a positive development. Let these losers quit and find jobs they're more qualified for, like mall security guard, or fry cook, or literally anything that doesn't involve carrying a gun.

Hey you know what, you're right. You can hire more, right? Sadly what happens is these types quit and you don't get new replacements very easily. It turns out that being a cop and wanting to be one takes a very particular psychological profile. It's not like you lay off 50 people at the tuna factory and then a year later just put out an ad to replace them when the market is better. Overall the total police force will likely decrease as a result of all this.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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I'm pretty much a believer that technology will solve most of this, as body and dash cameras become more prevalent.

To fully prevent all this, the City of Baltimore will need cameras in police cars, on all PD vests, in all compartments of all wagons. There will be equipment cost, vendor payments, monitoring and data storage. I wonder what the cost will be year in, year out.

How about deaths in jail cells? Quite a few of those every year too.

The total cost of body cameras in the first year alone would range from $5.5 million to $7.9 million.

http://www.statetechmagazine.com/article/2015/02/baltimore-weighs-hidden-cost-police-body-cameras

That's just body cameras.

Meh, that cost will be partially, if not completely, offset by reduced insurance premiums and/or settlements in police brutality and other misconduct lawsuits.

From 2011 to 2014, Baltimore averaged $1.5M per year in police brutality settlements alone.

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If the cops who don't think they can perform their duties without shooting unarmed civilians in the back or murdering them while in custody no longer want to do their jobs for fear of actually getting prosecuted for these crimes, that strikes me as a positive development. Let these losers quit and find jobs they're more qualified for, like mall security guard, or fry cook, or literally anything that doesn't involve carrying a gun.

I can appreciate the difficulty to being a good, decent, cop now who gets "rushed" by a suspect, or makes a move towards what they genuinely think may be a gun. It really, really, sucks for them that they have to make s SPLIT SECOND decision that could affect the rest of their lives (including whether they will live another day).

It sucks that bad, negligent, immoral police that came before them and unnecessarily and willfully killed, maimed, or otherwise harmed citizens now have made the "good" cops' lives more difficult. But let's remember who is to blame for this mess. Not the victims of wrongful acts, and not the citizens who protest those wrongful acts. But the original wrongdoers.

There's a lot of blame to go around; bad cops, criminals, and rioters/looters. I would throw in parts of the media and politicians as well.

The good people on both sides get dragged into the fray and labeled, but when people generalize that's what happens.

And most unfortunately, the lines have already been drawn without anyone actually knowing what happened.

Edited by jonessed
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I agree with you Tobias. I think this is all an excuse. But cops wouldn't get away with it if not for all the conservatives willing to jump on board to defend them no matter what the case.

Cops are doing exactly what the public wants Tim. Stop and frisk? Hell no - unconstitutional. Profiling? Hell no - racism. Use of deadly force against people resisting arrest or attacking officers? Hell no - "Hands up, don't shoot!".

I don't understand what you're pissing and moaning about. What do expect when you implement the public's wishes like this? Crime rates to go down?

I dunno. The libertarian in me says that a lot less stop and frisk -- a lot -- is a really good thing. Less profiling is a good thing. Less use of deadly force is a good thing. All good things, no?

I don't understand some conservative voices. Aren't they supposed to be more libertarian? Less government, less police intrusion? Shouldn't conservatives be in favor of more restrictive police practices?

It's strange, but here's what I see: In middle-class and upper middle-class and upper-class neighborhoods, there is MUCH less police presence than in poverty neighborhoods? But is it really causal? Much more crime going on in lower-class neighborhoods, or is it just the culture that everyone is familiar with?

I know if police started roaming the streets of my neighborhood and hassling my middle-school and high-school kids, my neighbors and I would be all up the mayor's and the city counsel's rear end. Is that why they don't harass upper middle-class kids like they do in poor neighborhoods? Nobody complains in poor neighborhoods when this happens? Or nobody listens to the complaints?

I'm not sure that's even true. Do you have any stats? I think we can agree that the daily activities are likely different, but I suspect the presence may not be. I really don't know though.

Make no mistake: that post is 100% anecdotal. Just what I seem to perceive by living in both poor neighborhoods (as a kid), and upper-middle class neighborhoods as an adult. But should have made more clear that this is my personal perception, that may or may not reflect reality. I do know that my teen son and his teen friends have never been stopped by police and asked what they were up to (the neighborhood list-serve would guarantee to blow-up if that started to happen). I'm genuinely curious if that is the same reality for a black kid living in the projects.

It probably isn't, but that's not necessarily because of more police presence or inherent racism.

Well I gave one proposed (non-racism related) reason for less police presence in upper- and upper-middle class neighborhoods: That the residents of those neighborhoods would pressure the city officials to back off.

So even if we see the police as a non-racist constant (i.e., preference to have a more active presence in all neighborhoods regardless of socio-economic class), my (untested) theory is that that they would get pushback from wealthier neighborhoods that they don't get in poor neighborhoods (another thought: Maybe the "law abiding" residents in lower-class neighborhoods welcome police presence, which would be another reason that politicians wouldn't get pushback).

Just really thinking out loud here.

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I'm pretty much a believer that technology will solve most of this, as body and dash cameras become more prevalent.

To fully prevent all this, the City of Baltimore will need cameras in police cars, on all PD vests, in all compartments of all wagons. There will be equipment cost, vendor payments, monitoring and data storage. I wonder what the cost will be year in, year out.

How about deaths in jail cells? Quite a few of those every year too.

The total cost of body cameras in the first year alone would range from $5.5 million to $7.9 million.

http://www.statetechmagazine.com/article/2015/02/baltimore-weighs-hidden-cost-police-body-cameras

That's just body cameras.

Meh, that cost will be partially, if not completely, offset by reduced insurance premiums and/or settlements in police brutality and other misconduct lawsuits.

From 2011 to 2014, Baltimore averaged $1.5M per year in police brutality settlements alone.

That's over 4 years. That's a very holistic way of looking at things but even if you eliminated all of it it still leaves millions.

I will add that the local SA/DA criminalizing false arrest probably leads to more lawsuits, not fewer.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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I agree with you Tobias. I think this is all an excuse. But cops wouldn't get away with it if not for all the conservatives willing to jump on board to defend them no matter what the case.

Cops are doing exactly what the public wants Tim. Stop and frisk? Hell no - unconstitutional. Profiling? Hell no - racism. Use of deadly force against people resisting arrest or attacking officers? Hell no - "Hands up, don't shoot!".

I don't understand what you're pissing and moaning about. What do expect when you implement the public's wishes like this? Crime rates to go down?

I dunno. The libertarian in me says that a lot less stop and frisk -- a lot -- is a really good thing. Less profiling is a good thing. Less use of deadly force is a good thing. All good things, no?

I don't understand some conservative voices. Aren't they supposed to be more libertarian? Less government, less police intrusion? Shouldn't conservatives be in favor of more restrictive police practices?

It's strange, but here's what I see: In middle-class and upper middle-class and upper-class neighborhoods, there is MUCH less police presence than in poverty neighborhoods? But is it really causal? Much more crime going on in lower-class neighborhoods, or is it just the culture that everyone is familiar with?

I know if police started roaming the streets of my neighborhood and hassling my middle-school and high-school kids, my neighbors and I would be all up the mayor's and the city counsel's rear end. Is that why they don't harass upper middle-class kids like they do in poor neighborhoods? Nobody complains in poor neighborhoods when this happens? Or nobody listens to the complaints?

I'm not sure that's even true. Do you have any stats? I think we can agree that the daily activities are likely different, but I suspect the presence may not be. I really don't know though.

Make no mistake: that post is 100% anecdotal. Just what I seem to perceive by living in both poor neighborhoods (as a kid), and upper-middle class neighborhoods as an adult. But should have made more clear that this is my personal perception, that may or may not reflect reality. I do know that my teen son and his teen friends have never been stopped by police and asked what they were up to (the neighborhood list-serve would guarantee to blow-up if that started to happen). I'm genuinely curious if that is the same reality for a black kid living in the projects.

It probably isn't, but that's not necessarily because of more police presence or inherent racism.

Well I gave one proposed (non-racism related) reason for less police presence in upper- and upper-middle class neighborhoods: That the residents of those neighborhoods would pressure the city officials to back off.

So even if we see the police as a non-racist constant (i.e., preference to have a more active presence in all neighborhoods regardless of socio-economic class), my (untested) theory is that that they would get pushback from wealthier neighborhoods that they don't get in poor neighborhoods (another thought: Maybe the "law abiding" residents in lower-class neighborhoods welcome police presence, which would be another reason that politicians wouldn't get pushback).

Just really thinking out loud here.

I don't mind seeing the police around. In fact, I like it. My thoughts on that have remained the same from when we moved from a poor/middle-class neighborhood to a middle-class/wealthy neighborhood. I actually see a lot more cops now than I did previously. I wish the opposite was true, but my current city can afford more cops so more are here.

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I agree with you Tobias. I think this is all an excuse. But cops wouldn't get away with it if not for all the conservatives willing to jump on board to defend them no matter what the case.

Cops are doing exactly what the public wants Tim. Stop and frisk? Hell no - unconstitutional. Profiling? Hell no - racism. Use of deadly force against people resisting arrest or attacking officers? Hell no - "Hands up, don't shoot!".

I don't understand what you're pissing and moaning about. What do expect when you implement the public's wishes like this? Crime rates to go down?

I dunno. The libertarian in me says that a lot less stop and frisk -- a lot -- is a really good thing. Less profiling is a good thing. Less use of deadly force is a good thing. All good things, no?

I don't understand some conservative voices. Aren't they supposed to be more libertarian? Less government, less police intrusion? Shouldn't conservatives be in favor of more restrictive police practices?

It's strange, but here's what I see: In middle-class and upper middle-class and upper-class neighborhoods, there is MUCH less police presence than in poverty neighborhoods? But is it really causal? Much more crime going on in lower-class neighborhoods, or is it just the culture that everyone is familiar with?

I know if police started roaming the streets of my neighborhood and hassling my middle-school and high-school kids, my neighbors and I would be all up the mayor's and the city counsel's rear end. Is that why they don't harass upper middle-class kids like they do in poor neighborhoods? Nobody complains in poor neighborhoods when this happens? Or nobody listens to the complaints?

I'm not sure that's even true. Do you have any stats? I think we can agree that the daily activities are likely different, but I suspect the presence may not be. I really don't know though.

Make no mistake: that post is 100% anecdotal. Just what I seem to perceive by living in both poor neighborhoods (as a kid), and upper-middle class neighborhoods as an adult. But should have made more clear that this is my personal perception, that may or may not reflect reality. I do know that my teen son and his teen friends have never been stopped by police and asked what they were up to (the neighborhood list-serve would guarantee to blow-up if that started to happen). I'm genuinely curious if that is the same reality for a black kid living in the projects.

It probably isn't, but that's not necessarily because of more police presence or inherent racism.

Well I gave one proposed (non-racism related) reason for less police presence in upper- and upper-middle class neighborhoods: That the residents of those neighborhoods would pressure the city officials to back off.

So even if we see the police as a non-racist constant (i.e., preference to have a more active presence in all neighborhoods regardless of socio-economic class), my (untested) theory is that that they would get pushback from wealthier neighborhoods that they don't get in poor neighborhoods (another thought: Maybe the "law abiding" residents in lower-class neighborhoods welcome police presence, which would be another reason that politicians wouldn't get pushback).

Just really thinking out loud here.

You need to have enough to cover all neighborhoods.

the rich want the cops nearby, actually all the "good" people want cops nearby but not all can get them. - Here the complaint is actually that the police are in the rich neighborhoods (which are often just blocks from the "bad" neighborhoods); so while the poor single elderly lady living in a shotgun crib can't get someone to help her get the dealer off her street there's a cop 10 blocks away doing nothing but watching the foot traffic outside mansions.

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I would love to see the cops just all walk off the job. Kind of a "If you can do it better, go for it" type of strike. I'm guessing it would only take a couple of days before people had a whole new respect for cops.

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I'm pretty much a believer that technology will solve most of this, as body and dash cameras become more prevalent.

To fully prevent all this, the City of Baltimore will need cameras in police cars, on all PD vests, in all compartments of all wagons. There will be equipment cost, vendor payments, monitoring and data storage. I wonder what the cost will be year in, year out.

How about deaths in jail cells? Quite a few of those every year too.

The total cost of body cameras in the first year alone would range from $5.5 million to $7.9 million.

http://www.statetechmagazine.com/article/2015/02/baltimore-weighs-hidden-cost-police-body-cameras

That's just body cameras.

Meh, that cost will be partially, if not completely, offset by reduced insurance premiums and/or settlements in police brutality and other misconduct lawsuits.

From 2011 to 2014, Baltimore averaged $1.5M per year in police brutality settlements alone.

That's over 4 years. That's a very holistic way of looking at things but even if you eliminated all of it it still leaves millions.

I will add that the local SA/DA criminalizing false arrest probably leads to more lawsuits, not fewer.

You're comparing the first year costs against average costs. I suspect the first year costs of cameras will be higher than subsequent years.

It is possible that criminalizing false arrest leads to more lawsuits, but I suspect that fewer false arrests in the first place due to the presence of body cameras will more than offset that.

A few million for body cameras seems like a small price to pay for what should result in vastly improved police work. Granted, maybe the improvement won't be immediate because the existing officers throw a hissy fit, but there should be significant improvements over time.

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I'm pretty much a believer that technology will solve most of this, as body and dash cameras become more prevalent.

To fully prevent all this, the City of Baltimore will need cameras in police cars, on all PD vests, in all compartments of all wagons. There will be equipment cost, vendor payments, monitoring and data storage. I wonder what the cost will be year in, year out.

How about deaths in jail cells? Quite a few of those every year too.

The total cost of body cameras in the first year alone would range from $5.5 million to $7.9 million.

http://www.statetechmagazine.com/article/2015/02/baltimore-weighs-hidden-cost-police-body-cameras

That's just body cameras.

Meh, that cost will be partially, if not completely, offset by reduced insurance premiums and/or settlements in police brutality and other misconduct lawsuits.

From 2011 to 2014, Baltimore averaged $1.5M per year in police brutality settlements alone.

That's over 4 years. That's a very holistic way of looking at things but even if you eliminated all of it it still leaves millions.

I will add that the local SA/DA criminalizing false arrest probably leads to more lawsuits, not fewer.

You're comparing the first year costs against average costs. I suspect the first year costs of cameras will be higher than subsequent years.

It is possible that criminalizing false arrest leads to more lawsuits, but I suspect that fewer false arrests in the first place due to the presence of body cameras will more than offset that.

A few million for body cameras seems like a small price to pay for what should result in vastly improved police work. Granted, maybe the improvement won't be immediate because the existing officers throw a hissy fit, but there should be significant improvements over time.

Look I agree the cost should be paid. People just talk about the reform and then are shocked by the sticker. We're all talking about this but it's going to fall on Baltimore.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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I would love to see the cops just all walk off the job. Kind of a "If you can do it better, go for it" type of strike. I'm guessing it would only take a couple of days before people had a whole new respect for cops.

Blackmail is to be applauded

:sarcasm:

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Guest General Tso

Ultimately the cops serve the public. If the public wants them to crack down they do. If the public wants them to back off, they do that as well.

What an innocuous sentence.

Pray tell, how were the six Baltimore cops now indicted serving Freddie Gray (a member of the public)?

I think you raise a good point. The cops view the law abiding citizens as their "customer" - not the folks who dabble in the wrong side of the law if you will. And that needs to change as well. Might sound silly, but the model I like to point to is Dog the Bounty Hunter. HIs attitudes towards the people he tracks down show the right balance of firmness and compassion. Of course it's easy for me to say cops should have such attitudes. I'm not dealing with these people every day like they are. But clearly there needs to be a softer approach, dare I say compassionate, from the police to criminals. It's such an important job. A cop shouldn't be hated, even by criminals. Respected, and maybe even feared, but not hated.
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American Pharoah just got to Pimilico. Preakness should be interesting. And by interesting I mean an even bigger #### show than usual.

What leads you to think that?

There's been one spasm of violence, on that Monday afternoon and evening. Things are chill here. People were commenting on this thread that the Prince concert would be trouble. Turns out the only trouble was the state's attorney having too much fun on stage.

Preakness will be no bigger a #### show than usual, maybe even a little less if out-of-towners are dissuaded from venturing to Baltimore.

I will say there are few things more "Baltimore" than watching the the backstretch of the Preakness on TV, when you can suddenly see brick rowhouses and a heavily trafficked stretch of Northern Parkway at the perimeter of the aerial shot. I love the incongruity. If I lived in one of the houses that you can briefly see, I would sit out on the back porch in a pair of cutoffs and wife-beater, because that would complete the image.

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So either we let the police have a free rein, or they become so demoralized that they won't be able to keep the streets safe? Are those really our only two choices?

Its about managing expectations imo - Police have been given free rein for a very long time, so curtailing that a bit will have some demoralizing effects. But, that is not a reason not to reconfigure expectations.

Our policing in general could use an overhaul, where more emphasis is placed on rebuilding trust in all communities, rather than policing via brute force and terror (which is how some communities feel). But that will take a shift in the overall perception of what we want from police and the justice system.

Just like reforms that are needed to our education system, I think these changes are simply too big and all-encompassing to ever take place.

It's odd that these systems never seem to work in majority black areas, but almost always seem to work in other areas. If systems never worked in one majority demographic area but always seemed to work in all other majority demographic areas, I'd ask what's wrong with that one demographic, and not what's wrong with those systems.

Feel free to call me names, but I guarantee that decades from now you'll still be looking for the correct systems for those areas. Especially with the dysgenic effects going on there.
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In my observation, what happens in black areas is that they do not get the police protection they really need. If you're poor person living in a black neighborhood you're not getting the cops to respond to you like a rich person in a great neighborhood.

Yes the cops may come through, arrest a bad guy. When I say bad guy I mean a murderer, someone to be genuinely frightened of, the kind of person that if they showed up at your door you'd piss your pants, especially if you did not have a gun or were weak in some way.

What happens? The judicial system turns the guy back out on the street, he comes looking for you and yours. What happens then, are the cops there to watch your neighborhood and you 24/7? No, they are not. You're extremely vulnerable. So can you blame people for not leaning on the cops, not trusting them?

It's just not that easy to say oh hey x, y or z group should trust the cops or work with them. The problems of crime have way outstripped the abilities of cops to police. We compensate, since the Clinton years, by over-incarcerating people, and you know what that has actually helped lower crime rates to some extent. But what we get are cops who do desperate things to enforce their authority. Cities aren't willing to pay for more cops and/or reforms. Black political leaders get populist and say the cops over-enforce and ask them to back off while their own constituents are the main victims of crime, white political leaders take calls from rich people who want their wealthier neighborhoods policed and protected at the expense of poor neighborhoods. And meanwhile the tax base shrinks because the perception is of blight and unsafe neighborhoods and the poorer neighborhoods object to gentrification, which are just attempts for people and business to develop the inner city which you know would expand the tax base which would pay for reforms.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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Ultimately the cops serve the public. If the public wants them to crack down they do. If the public wants them to back off, they do that as well.

What an innocuous sentence.

Pray tell, how were the six Baltimore cops now indicted serving Freddie Gray (a member of the public)?

I think you raise a good point. The cops view the law abiding citizens as their "customer" - not the folks who dabble in the wrong side of the law if you will. And that needs to change as well. Might sound silly, but the model I like to point to is Dog the Bounty Hunter. HIs attitudes towards the people he tracks down show the right balance of firmness and compassion. Of course it's easy for me to say cops should have such attitudes. I'm not dealing with these people every day like they are. But clearly there needs to be a softer approach, dare I say compassionate, from the police to criminals. It's such an important job. A cop shouldn't be hated, even by criminals. Respected, and maybe even feared, but not hated.

In their conduct ob the street they are also required to uphold the civil rights of the prople with whom they interact, even the people they may wish to apprehend.

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Baltimore: The Consequences of Planning That Isolates Neighborhoods

If you travel up North Mount Street between Laurens Street and Presbury Street you find the Gilmore Homes, now most infamously known as the place where Freddie Gray’s life began to slip away. I walked up North Mount, not shocked by what I saw, but filled with dismay. You could not go one street without a burned out home, abandoned property, or empty lot. Three corner stores represented the only nearby neighborhood grocers, and transit was scarce.

Yet, still this predominantly low-income, African American community was vibrantly hopeful. Folk were out on the stoop with barbecue and music; kids were out and about playing; and everyone was biking and walking. Yes, you read that correctly — biking and walking.

From the older gentlemen in their work attire to the cluster of young boys that directed us to the mural honoring Freddie Gray, to the scores of people who stopped by as we served food, water and medical supplies, biking and walking were everywhere.

Seeing this caused me to ask this question: How many of these people are faces in our data and how many of them are missing? In other words, what assumptions are we making in our program and policy strategy that causes us to miss the opportunity marker in who can be served and advocated for?

In Baltimore, the repercussions of eminent domain, freeway expansion, gentrification, foreclosures, and the dismantling of public housing have eliminated safe and healthy mobility for many underserved communities and cut them off from the ability to meet their basic needs. This was no accident or oversight.

In 1944, Robert Moses, a dominant national voice on the planning and build out of urban expressways was talking about slums and the poor people of color who inhabited them when he said, “the more of them that are wiped out the healthier Baltimore will be in the long run.” From 1951 to 1971, 80 to 90 percent of the 25,000 families displaced in Baltimore to build new highways, schools, and housing projects were black. Therefore, it is safe to assume that the evolution of these young and old residents’ mobility choice is rooted in the historical consequences of being cut off.

Baltimore is not new and Baltimore is not the only. The combating of violence, racial profiling, health disparities, low physical activity levels, food deserts and lack of neighborhood schools is rooted in the question of access. Does this community have access to its most basic needs and what have been the historical ramifications of these communities being cut off and disposed of? We know that people of color who are also low-income are more likely not to have a car, more likely to walk or bike to school and have taken up bicycling at a faster rate than white Americans from 2000 to 2009 — but do we know why and do we know the reverberating effects of that why?

Equity in place is not simply the maturation towards inclusion — it’s a tailored strategy that affords equal opportunity. As many of us grapple with the uprising in cities like Baltimore, it is important to recognize that ever-present disparities unquestionably play a triggering role. The recognition that those fires did not first start a couple of weeks ago is critical if we are to understand what the problems are without overlooking their complexity and origins. Though data identifies the problem, it’s the on-the-ground community building that brings the right solutions into focus. As advocates, we have to welcome the challenge of facing the history that ignited such disparities and make equity a priority.

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/05/11/baltimore-the-consequences-of-planning-that-isolates-neighborhoods/

One thing I know about in Baltimore is the use of eminent domain to build the biomedical district.

As I understand blocks of poor, historic neighborhoods got torn down for what were to be gleaming, shiny biomedical corridor. What happened is that of course there were lots of construction contracts that made some very important people very rich, but the promises of the district have been way under-met. I could be wrong about that, but this kind of thing seems like the worst case scenario and decision making for cities that decide to amputate their appendages rather than restoring blood flow to the arteries. Maybe I'm wrong, as I realize the Baltimore citizens here may feel differently.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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Baltimore: The Consequences of Planning That Isolates Neighborhoods

If you travel up North Mount Street between Laurens Street and Presbury Street you find the Gilmore Homes, now most infamously known as the place where Freddie Gray’s life began to slip away. I walked up North Mount, not shocked by what I saw, but filled with dismay. You could not go one street without a burned out home, abandoned property, or empty lot. Three corner stores represented the only nearby neighborhood grocers, and transit was scarce.

Yet, still this predominantly low-income, African American community was vibrantly hopeful. Folk were out on the stoop with barbecue and music; kids were out and about playing; and everyone was biking and walking. Yes, you read that correctly — biking and walking.

From the older gentlemen in their work attire to the cluster of young boys that directed us to the mural honoring Freddie Gray, to the scores of people who stopped by as we served food, water and medical supplies, biking and walking were everywhere.

It's Gilmor. Not that it isn't already clear the author is wandering the streets of Sandtown like some kind of anthropologist investigating a strange and foreign land.

What else explains his utter shock upon making a discovery so noteworthy that he repeats it twice, that people in the neighborhood actually bike and walk, just like people in America?

One thing I know about in Baltimore is the use of eminent domain to build the biomedical district.

As I understand blocks of poor, historic neighborhoods got torn down for what were to be gleaming, shiny biomedical corridor. What happened is that of course there were lots of construction contracts that made some very important people very rich, but the promises of the district have been way under-met. I could be wrong about that, but this kind of thing seems like the worst case scenario and decision making for cities that decide to amputate their appendages rather than restoring blood flow to the arteries. Maybe I'm wrong, as I realize the Baltimore citizens here may feel differently.

The East Baltimore Development project hasn't really materialized, but it's truly not a major deal in all of Baltimore's woes. It didn't even get started until about 2002, by which point all the terrible stuff we've talked about - poverty, drugs, white flight, skyrocketing crime, terrible schools, an astronomical tax rate - was completely entrenched. The EBDI project was actually an initiative to try and harness Hopkins and the City together in a public-private partnership that will help restore the blighted neighborhood around Hopkins Hospital. It hasn't really worked, but a failed cure is much different from the disease itself.

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2. Better training, particularly with regard to how, when and where to use deadly force. The current techniques have to change.

It has more to do with informing the public as to what can become a deadly situation. Fight or flight response is humans' deepest behavioral response. And humans can move a lot quicker and take more punishment than the populace (in general) thinks is possible.

So, honestly, this one is pure bull####.

4. Police must have a racial makeup that mimics the communities they serve. No more Fergusons. Use short term affirmative action programs if necessary. As much as I hate the race card, it's obvious that people still see in black and white, particularly black people.

Funny you pick out Ferguson, in which the officer was absolved locally and federally. And yet in Baltimore, where the makeup does reflect the community better, that incident caused the populace to respond differently how, exactly?

Agreed on cameras and drug policy.

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Well there's a step in the right direction. Cops will start quitting, yes you will need to pay them to stay and you will have to pay them even more make up for the attrition.

Will Baltimore pay for this? And will the vote for a tax hike? And then will that cause businesses and residents to leave or not come to Baltimore, when it sounds like the city needs to increase its tax base.

Good luck this is a good example of the choices ahead.

I don't believe most cops will quit and I don't believe we'll have to pay the majority to stay.

It happened in NO. Yeah they'll quit.

Whoever quits over this shouldn't be a cop in the first place. Society is better off with them removed from this particular profession.
Even those who are expected to be better have a breaking point.
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I'm pretty much a believer that technology will solve most of this, as body and dash cameras become more prevalent.

To fully prevent all this, the City of Baltimore will need cameras in police cars, on all PD vests, in all compartments of all wagons. There will be equipment cost, vendor payments, monitoring and data storage. I wonder what the cost will be year in, year out.

How about deaths in jail cells? Quite a few of those every year too.

The total cost of body cameras in the first year alone would range from $5.5 million to $7.9 million.

http://www.statetechmagazine.com/article/2015/02/baltimore-weighs-hidden-cost-police-body-cameras

That's just body cameras.

Cha-Ching

Guess who gets the contract.

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I went to the Prince show in BMore. The Mosby part was really minor, and went quickly.

Two things stuck out at me from the show. 1) Prince killed it. Probably the best guitar playing I've ever seen live, and that was within the first 5 mins. 2) This show was probably the most diverse and integrated event I've ever seen in BMore. White, black, young, old, long haired rock fans, and hip hop heads all in one place. The show had no opening act and went from 8:30 - 11:30. He even played the first few bars of "Darling Nikki" before moving off into something else. The crowd went nuts for about 3 seconds. Great show.

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Good article in the NY Times on the emerging Defense arguments - http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/us/freddie-gray-baltimore-police.html?_r=0

Interesting note about the recent court case in Maryland exonerating police officers from a wrongful arrest charge. Also what appears to be new news about a policy enacted 9 days earlier that the cops had to provide medical assistance when asked for by the suspect. First I had heard of that. But it looks like this new procedure, in addition to having to buckle in suspects, appears to have been buried in a 15 page memo.

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The defense faces other potential hurdles. The 1997 general order requires officers to seek medical treatment for detainees “when necessary,” but the April 3 revisions go further, requiring treatment “when requested.”


Ms. Mosby said the officers ignored Mr. Gray’s repeated complaints of breathing problems and requests for a doctor. During the van’s next-to-last stop, she said, three officers who checked on him did not summon help even though he was “unresponsive on the floor.”


Not until officers tried to remove Mr. Gray from the van at the police station did they realize he had stopped breathing and called an ambulance, she said.''



To me, this is the biggest hurdle the defense has to face. Despite all of the other potential problems with the prosecutions' case- the knife, the search, buckling in requirements, etc- the defendants are very likely to go down simply based on the bolded fact. And they probably should.


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The defense faces other potential hurdles. The 1997 general order requires officers to seek medical treatment for detainees when necessary, but the April 3 revisions go further, requiring treatment when requested.

Ms. Mosby said the officers ignored Mr. Grays repeated complaints of breathing problems and requests for a doctor. During the vans next-to-last stop, she said, three officers who checked on him did not summon help even though he was unresponsive on the floor.

Not until officers tried to remove Mr. Gray from the van at the police station did they realize he had stopped breathing and called an ambulance, she said.''

To me, this is the biggest hurdle the defense has to face. Despite all of the other potential problems with the prosecutions' case- the knife, the search, buckling in requirements, etc- the defendants are very likely to go down simply based on the bolded fact. And they probably should.

I agree, Tim. I think they'll try to argue that the cops weren't aware of the new 9 day old edict, which was buried in a 15 page document, but in the end I don't think this will matter - at least with regard to the manslaughter and lesser reckless endangerment type charges. The cops were clearly negligent in this regard and they deserve to be punished for it. I will be very disappointed and surprised if they get off, even if they are successful in showing they weren't adequately advised about the new edict. It's common sense to get a human being medical attention when he or she is dying, and that's exactly what was going on with Freddie Gray. Edited by General Tso
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American Pharoah just got to Pimilico. Preakness should be interesting. And by interesting I mean an even bigger #### show than usual.

What leads you to think that?

There's been one spasm of violence, on that Monday afternoon and evening. Things are chill here. People were commenting on this thread that the Prince concert would be trouble. Turns out the only trouble was the state's attorney having too much fun on stage.

Preakness will be no bigger a #### show than usual, maybe even a little less if out-of-towners are dissuaded from venturing to Baltimore.

I will say there are few things more "Baltimore" than watching the the backstretch of the Preakness on TV, when you can suddenly see brick rowhouses and a heavily trafficked stretch of Northern Parkway at the perimeter of the aerial shot. I love the incongruity. If I lived in one of the houses that you can briefly see, I would sit out on the back porch in a pair of cutoffs and wife-beater, because that would complete the image.

4 people shot before the race. Homicides up 40% this year. They're starting to call it the "Baltimore Spring". http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bal-4-shot-in-e-baltimore-two-hours-before-preakness-20150516-story.html
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CBS Baltimore

Alarming Surge In Murders And Shootings In Baltimore

May 18, 2015

BALTIMORE (WJZ) — City crime spike. A dramatic increase in violence in Baltimore. Dozens of shooting and murders in the last few weeks following the riots last month.

Christie Ileto reports some are concerned police are hesitant to crack down after six officers were charged in the death of Freddie Gray.

No parent should ever have to bury a child, but it’s Vel Hick’s reality.

“He took my baby away from me. That’s my baby,” she said.

Her 33-year-old son Louis is now one of 96 homicides in Baltimore this year–an undercurrent of violence that’s up almost one-third from this time last year.

“People have said its because morale is down, or it’s because the officers were charged. We don’t know that,” said Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake.

While city leaders are working to curb the rash of bloodshed.

A Baltimore police officer who chose to remain anonymous says the Freddie Gray case impacted policing.

“If you want them to be proactive in patrolling and trying to catch people, I could see them not being interested in doing that,” the officer said.

William Scipio heads Sandtown’s Resident Action Committee–an area once at the heart of April’s unrest.

Ileto: “When was the last time you’ve personally seen an officer in Sandtown?”

Scipio: “Since the riots.”

Community leaders say curbing the violence means solving a systemic problem.

“Jobs. Possibilities,” said Pastor Duane Simmons, Simmons Memorial Baptist Church. “I have young people in my church who are involved. They inform me, ‘Pastor, we really don’t want to do this, but we have no alternative.'”

For now, neighborhoods continue to hear stories from mothers like Vel Hicks, who now only hope for justice.

Community leaders are also asking residents to step up and do their part to keep their neighborhoods safe.

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CBS Baltimore

Alarming Surge In Murders And Shootings In Baltimore

May 18, 2015

BALTIMORE (WJZ) — City crime spike. A dramatic increase in violence in Baltimore. Dozens of shooting and murders in the last few weeks following the riots last month.

Christie Ileto reports some are concerned police are hesitant to crack down after six officers were charged in the death of Freddie Gray.

No parent should ever have to bury a child, but it’s Vel Hick’s reality.

“He took my baby away from me. That’s my baby,” she said.

Her 33-year-old son Louis is now one of 96 homicides in Baltimore this year–an undercurrent of violence that’s up almost one-third from this time last year.

“People have said its because morale is down, or it’s because the officers were charged. We don’t know that,” said Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake.

While city leaders are working to curb the rash of bloodshed.

A Baltimore police officer who chose to remain anonymous says the Freddie Gray case impacted policing.

“If you want them to be proactive in patrolling and trying to catch people, I could see them not being interested in doing that,” the officer said.

William Scipio heads Sandtown’s Resident Action Committee–an area once at the heart of April’s unrest.

Ileto: “When was the last time you’ve personally seen an officer in Sandtown?”

Scipio: “Since the riots.”

Community leaders say curbing the violence means solving a systemic problem.

“Jobs. Possibilities,” said Pastor Duane Simmons, Simmons Memorial Baptist Church. “I have young people in my church who are involved. They inform me, ‘Pastor, we really don’t want to do this, but we have no alternative.'”

For now, neighborhoods continue to hear stories from mothers like Vel Hicks, who now only hope for justice.

Community leaders are also asking residents to step up and do their part to keep their neighborhoods safe.

False narrative.

Per the Wash Post, there were 220 homicides in Baltimore last year. It sounds like there have been 96 homicides in the 140-odd days from Jan to Feb. I'd probably not use the term "alarming surge" to describe the difference. (probably be interested in the numbers over the last 5 years or so). Media once again is going sensational. You people are funny. The media "sensationalizes" things at very convenient times for you.

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CBS Baltimore

Alarming Surge In Murders And Shootings In Baltimore

May 18, 2015

BALTIMORE (WJZ) — City crime spike. A dramatic increase in violence in Baltimore. Dozens of shooting and murders in the last few weeks following the riots last month.

Christie Ileto reports some are concerned police are hesitant to crack down after six officers were charged in the death of Freddie Gray.

No parent should ever have to bury a child, but it’s Vel Hick’s reality.

“He took my baby away from me. That’s my baby,” she said.

Her 33-year-old son Louis is now one of 96 homicides in Baltimore this year–an undercurrent of violence that’s up almost one-third from this time last year.

“People have said its because morale is down, or it’s because the officers were charged. We don’t know that,” said Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake.

While city leaders are working to curb the rash of bloodshed.

A Baltimore police officer who chose to remain anonymous says the Freddie Gray case impacted policing.

“If you want them to be proactive in patrolling and trying to catch people, I could see them not being interested in doing that,” the officer said.

William Scipio heads Sandtown’s Resident Action Committee–an area once at the heart of April’s unrest.

Ileto: “When was the last time you’ve personally seen an officer in Sandtown?”

Scipio: “Since the riots.”

Community leaders say curbing the violence means solving a systemic problem.

“Jobs. Possibilities,” said Pastor Duane Simmons, Simmons Memorial Baptist Church. “I have young people in my church who are involved. They inform me, ‘Pastor, we really don’t want to do this, but we have no alternative.'”

For now, neighborhoods continue to hear stories from mothers like Vel Hicks, who now only hope for justice.

Community leaders are also asking residents to step up and do their part to keep their neighborhoods safe.

False narrative.

Per the Wash Post, there were 220 homicides in Baltimore last year. It sounds like there have been 96 homicides in the 140-odd days from Jan to Feb. I'd probably not use the term "alarming surge" to describe the difference. (probably be interested in the numbers over the last 5 years or so). Media once again is going sensational. You people are funny. The media "sensationalizes" things at very convenient times for you.

Or you could understand how "surge" is being correctly used. The media is not primarily emphasizing a surge in murders from 2014 to 2015. The media is primarily emphasizing a surge in murders since the riots last month. With that said, Baltimore murder is up since last year.

Here....

Washington Post

After rioters burned Baltimore, killings pile up largely under the radar

May 17, 2015

BALTIMORE — Andre Hunt counseled troubled kids through the Boys and Girls Club. He volunteered at the local NAACP chapter. A barber, he befriended the son of an assistant high school principal, swapping tales of football and life while the boy grew into adulthood under the clips of his shears.

“He was like a big brother to my son,” the mother, Karima Carrington, said of her trips to Cut Masters on Liberty Heights Ave­nue.

The 28-year-old Hunt was lured out of the barbershop, according to his attorney, and shot in the back of the head on the afternoon of April 29. He was among more than 30 people slain in Baltimore in 30 days, an alarming number of killings and part of an undercurrent of violence here.

Although riots and protests after the death of Freddie Gray, who was injured in police custody, brought national attention to the city, the slayings have attracted little notice. They come as Baltimore works to recover from the unrest, with a police force demoralized by the arrests of six of its members — three of whom face murder or manslaughter charges in Gray’s death — and under the scrutiny of the Justice Department.

The Rev. Jamal H. Bryant, pastor of the Empowerment Temple and a local activist, said city residents have “almost been anesthetized” to the killings. “In any other community, these numbers would be jaw-dropping.”

A month before Gray’s death, Bryant joined Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake (D) at a summit to urge black men to help stop black-on-black killings. African Americans comprised 211 of Baltimore’s 216 homicide victims in 2014. Now Bryant, who eulogized Gray at his funeral, believes in “enlarging the narrative beyond Freddie Gray” to harness the anger and renew the focus on curbing violence.

“The young people are engaged,” the pastor said. “Now there has to be a clear conversation on the contributing factors to murder — lack of jobs, lack of opportunity, hopelessness. All have contributed to the down­sizing of life. . . . Young people don’t fear death. They’ve almost embraced it as part of life in Baltimore.”

Hunt’s killing remains unsolved. His attorney describes it as a daylight execution along the dilapidated commercial strip a little more than a mile from where the riots first erupted at Mondawmin Mall. Hunt’s friends believe the barber’s death is linked to his former position as a middleman in this city’s lucrative heroin trade. He was shot a month after he was sentenced to three years in federal prison for distributing drugs in Gray’s neighborhood, and 10 days before his attorney said he planned to report to serve his term.

Hunt’s roles as youth mentor, legitimate wage earner and drug dealer are part of the dysfunction and paradox of surviving in troubled neighborhoods, where narcotics are an integral part of commerce and as common as the vacant rowhouses that dominate the landscape. Hunt bought heroin wholesale and sold to street-level pushers working West Baltimore’s Gilmor Homes and its isolated courtyards between strips of drab public housing. This is the part of the Sandtown-Winchester neighborhood where Gray grew up and where he was arrested before he died April 19, after having been shackled and put without a buckled seat belt in the back of a police van.

Upsurge in homicides

The protests and riots that roiled this city in the aftermath of Gray’s death quieted after the police officers were charged. But even as shops were looted and burned and 3,200 Maryland National Guard troops came to restore order, another type of violence was consuming Baltimore.

From mid-April to mid-May, 31 people were killed, and 39 others were wounded by gunfire. Twice, 10 people were shot on a single day. As of Friday, the deadly burst has pushed the city’s homicide count to 91, 21 above last year at the same time. In the District, 40 people had been slain as of Friday, not including four people found dead Thursday in cases police said are being investigated as homicides but are awaiting a ruling by the medical examiner.

Graph

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Not sure anybody wants to argue in Baltimore's favor. Doesn't seem like a false narrative when people are comparing neighborhood life expectancy to North Korea.

Yeah, I know it's all about income inequality, but I'm not buying that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/30/baltimores-poorest-residents-die-20-years-earlier-than-its-richest/

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A Baltimore police officer who chose to remain anonymous says the Freddie Gray case impacted policing.

"If you want them to be proactive in patrolling and trying to catch people, I could see them not being interested in doing that," the officer said.

William Scipio heads Sandtowns Resident Action Committeean area once at the heart of Aprils unrest.

Ileto: "When was the last time youve personally seen an officer in Sandtown?"

Scipio: "Since the riots."

Well, so much for the whole "it's only a few bad apples, most cops are good cops" thing.

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CBS Baltimore

Alarming Surge In Murders And Shootings In Baltimore

May 18, 2015

BALTIMORE (WJZ) City crime spike. A dramatic increase in violence in Baltimore. Dozens of shooting and murders in the last few weeks following the riots last month.

Christie Ileto reports some are concerned police are hesitant to crack down after six officers were charged in the death of Freddie Gray.

No parent should ever have to bury a child, but its Vel Hicks reality.

He took my baby away from me. Thats my baby, she said.

Her 33-year-old son Louis is now one of 96 homicides in Baltimore this yearan undercurrent of violence thats up almost one-third from this time last year.

People have said its because morale is down, or its because the officers were charged. We dont know that, said Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake.

While city leaders are working to curb the rash of bloodshed.

A Baltimore police officer who chose to remain anonymous says the Freddie Gray case impacted policing.

If you want them to be proactive in patrolling and trying to catch people, I could see them not being interested in doing that, the officer said.

William Scipio heads Sandtowns Resident Action Committeean area once at the heart of Aprils unrest.

Ileto: When was the last time youve personally seen an officer in Sandtown?

Scipio: Since the riots.

Community leaders say curbing the violence means solving a systemic problem.

Jobs. Possibilities, said Pastor Duane Simmons, Simmons Memorial Baptist Church. I have young people in my church who are involved. They inform me, Pastor, we really dont want to do this, but we have no alternative.'

For now, neighborhoods continue to hear stories from mothers like Vel Hicks, who now only hope for justice.

Community leaders are also asking residents to step up and do their part to keep their neighborhoods safe.

False narrative.

Per the Wash Post, there were 220 homicides in Baltimore last year. It sounds like there have been 96 homicides in the 140-odd days from Jan to Feb. I'd probably not use the term "alarming surge" to describe the difference. (probably be interested in the numbers over the last 5 years or so). Media once again is going sensational. You people are funny. The media "sensationalizes" things at very convenient times for you.

:unsure:

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False narrative.

Per the Wash Post, there were 220 homicides in Baltimore last year. It sounds like there have been 96 homicides in the 140-odd days from Jan to Feb. I'd probably not use the term "alarming surge" to describe the difference. (probably be interested in the numbers over the last 5 years or so). Media once again is going sensational. You people are funny. The media "sensationalizes" things at very convenient times for you.

:unsure:

Lousy Smarch.

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I like to think that I keep a very clear-eyed and well-informed perspective when it comes to Baltimore, with my love of the city and hope for its future tempered by a realistic assessment of its conditions.

With that as a preface, let me say that I think there is a significant and highly troubling spike in violence and homicide underway, that started before the April 27 disturbance but has increased dramatically since.

For starters, if you want to know what's really going on here, read The Baltimore Sun, not the Washington Post, and certainly not any national media outlet. The Sun has been decimated by Tribune budget cuts in recent years, but their metro staff has been doing Pulitzer-worthy work for almost a month now. Every day, they are on it. From a story in yesterday's paper:

Across from a CVS drugstore in West Baltimore that remains shuttered and charred from last month's riots, two high-top tennis shoes remained on the sidewalk Monday, surrounded by police detectives and crime tape.

It was the scene of the city's 164th nonfatal shooting this year.

While police and city officials deal with continued fallout from the death of Freddie Gray, they also are confronting escalating violence. Homicides are up nearly 40 percent compared with the same time last year, while nonfatal shootings are up 60 percent. Most of the homicides have occurred in the Police Department's Western District, where Gray was arrested.

Police commanders said gang disputes may be driving some of the violence, especially on the city's west side. ... Davis said people are taking advantage of the turmoil following Gray's death to settle old scores.

"The most violent of any society will take moments like this to exact revenge, and it's our job to stop it," he said.

West Baltimore has been one of the city's most violent regions, but last year the number of killings were cut in half, to 21, compared with the previous year. ... A total of 20 people have been killed in the Western District this year.

I think there have been 37 homicides in the last 30 days. That's a higher rate than there's ever been, even before O'Malley was voted in as Mayor to clean things up. Also, as far as I can ascertain, I think there have been literally ZERO arrests in these cases over the last month. Just in case you missed that, there have been ZERO arrests in 37 murders over the last month.

Meanwhile, as the worst spasm of fatal violence in perhaps the history of the City of Baltimore is ongoing, our idiot Mayor appears on TV from Preakness, wearing a ludicrous hat and talking about "we can all take a deep breath" now that things have gotten back to normal following the Freddie Gray case.

Well, they have gotten back to normal for her and her constituents - the rich, the powerful, and the downtown developers. Many out-of-town people might jump to conclusions about the Mayor's background because she is African-American, but the reality is that her mother is a physician, her father was the Appropriations Chair in the Maryland House of Delegates for decades, and she grew up in a very privileged world of wealth. She went to Oberlin, for crying out loud.

So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested. Why the violence? Have the police stopped policing? Don't ask the Mayor, as she's showing the same kind of leadership now as she did during the riots themselves - which is to say none whatsoever.

I'm as concerned right now about Baltimore as I have been in a long time, and it's not about any riots. It's about a total breakdown in public safety and what that could portend for a long, hot and violent summer.

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CBS Baltimore

Alarming Surge In Murders And Shootings In Baltimore

May 18, 2015

BALTIMORE (WJZ) City crime spike. A dramatic increase in violence in Baltimore. Dozens of shooting and murders in the last few weeks following the riots last month.

Christie Ileto reports some are concerned police are hesitant to crack down after six officers were charged in the death of Freddie Gray.

No parent should ever have to bury a child, but its Vel Hicks reality.

He took my baby away from me. Thats my baby, she said.

Her 33-year-old son Louis is now one of 96 homicides in Baltimore this yearan undercurrent of violence thats up almost one-third from this time last year.

People have said its because morale is down, or its because the officers were charged. We dont know that, said Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake.

While city leaders are working to curb the rash of bloodshed.

A Baltimore police officer who chose to remain anonymous says the Freddie Gray case impacted policing.

If you want them to be proactive in patrolling and trying to catch people, I could see them not being interested in doing that, the officer said.

William Scipio heads Sandtowns Resident Action Committeean area once at the heart of Aprils unrest.

Ileto: When was the last time youve personally seen an officer in Sandtown?

Scipio: Since the riots.

Community leaders say curbing the violence means solving a systemic problem.

Jobs. Possibilities, said Pastor Duane Simmons, Simmons Memorial Baptist Church. I have young people in my church who are involved. They inform me, Pastor, we really dont want to do this, but we have no alternative.'

For now, neighborhoods continue to hear stories from mothers like Vel Hicks, who now only hope for justice.

Community leaders are also asking residents to step up and do their part to keep their neighborhoods safe.

False narrative.

Per the Wash Post, there were 220 homicides in Baltimore last year. It sounds like there have been 96 homicides in the 140-odd days from Jan to Feb. I'd probably not use the term "alarming surge" to describe the difference. (probably be interested in the numbers over the last 5 years or so). Media once again is going sensational. You people are funny. The media "sensationalizes" things at very convenient times for you.

:unsure:

Meant from January to now.

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So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested.

I think you might be confusing the Kentucky Derby crowd with The Preakness crowd.

No, I'm pretty sure I know what the corporate scene at the Preakness is like.

Yeah, but every major sporting event has The Haves and The Have-Nots in attendance. The Preakness has way more Have-Nots than Haves, and a higher percentage of Have-Nots than other major sporting events with higher ticket prices.

Besides, shouldn't the rich be able to go to sporting events unmolested? And the reason why people don't care about Baltimore post-riot is not because rich people can now go to sporting events unmolested. It's because people realize that they're not responsible for Baltimore's violence, they can't do anything about it, and it doesn't directly affect them. I'm sure there's a fatigue factor as well.

Edited by Gary Coal Man
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So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested.

I think you might be confusing the Kentucky Derby crowd with The Preakness crowd.

No, I'm pretty sure I know what the corporate scene at the Preakness is like.

Yeah, but every major sporting event has The Haves and The Have Nots in attendance. The Preakness has way more Have-Nots than Haves, and likely a higher percentage of Have-Nots than other major sporting events with higher ticket prices.

Besides, shouldn't the rich be able to go to sporting events unmolested? And the reason why people don't care about Baltimore post-riot is not because rich people can now go to sporting events unmolested. It's because people realize that they're not responsible for Baltimore's violence, they can't do anything about it, and it doesn't directly affect them. I'm sure there's a fatigue factor as well.

I truly have no idea what point you are trying to make. For starters, the famed Running of the Urinals at the Preakness was in 2008, and the event has been dramatically changed since then. But that's completely irrelevant to what I was talking about, which is:

1. People speculated here that Preakness would be marred by riots and/or intense security would be necessary to prevent outbreaks of violent protests. Those things didn't happen.

2. The success of Preakness, along with big Orioles crowds - just a couple of weeks after games were cancelled and one played before an empty ballpark - are just a couple prominent examples that life is pretty much back to normal for the more affluent residents of Baltimore.

3. There is an unprecedented spike in homicides and shootings going on right now throughout the city of Baltimore. So life is still certainly not back to normal for Baltimore residents in poorer areas, particularly the West Side.

4. I don't expect you or "people" to care about violence in Baltimore. But I expect the Mayor to care deeply. However, because #2 and 3 above are true, she doesn't really care about #4 - as she said in interviews at the Preakness.

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So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested.

I think you might be confusing the Kentucky Derby crowd with The Preakness crowd.

No, I'm pretty sure I know what the corporate scene at the Preakness is like.

Yeah, but every major sporting event has The Haves and The Have-Nots in attendance. The Preakness has way more Have-Nots than Haves, and a higher percentage of Have-Nots than other major sporting events with higher ticket prices.

Besides, shouldn't the rich be able to go to sporting events unmolested? And the reason why people don't care about Baltimore post-riot is not because rich people can now go to sporting events unmolested. It's because people realize that they're not responsible for Baltimore's violence, they can't do anything about it, and it doesn't directly affect them. I'm sure there's a fatigue factor as well.

Clearly you've never been to the Daytona 500.

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So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested.

I think you might be confusing the Kentucky Derby crowd with The Preakness crowd.

No, I'm pretty sure I know what the corporate scene at the Preakness is like.

Yeah, but every major sporting event has The Haves and The Have-Nots in attendance. The Preakness has way more Have-Nots than Haves, and a higher percentage of Have-Nots than other major sporting events with higher ticket prices.

Besides, shouldn't the rich be able to go to sporting events unmolested? And the reason why people don't care about Baltimore post-riot is not because rich people can now go to sporting events unmolested. It's because people realize that they're not responsible for Baltimore's violence, they can't do anything about it, and it doesn't directly affect them. I'm sure there's a fatigue factor as well.

Clearly you've never been to the Daytona 500.

Nope, but I've been to The Preakness. $70 infield tickets for 15 races and about seven music acts including two major headliners. Approximately eight hours of fun from gates open until the end of the big race for $70. Hardly a ball-busting ticket price for everything you get.

But those high Daytona ticket prices support my point that The Preakness has a far higher percentage of Have-Nots than nearly all major sporting events.

Edited by Gary Coal Man
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But those high Daytona ticket prices support my point that The Preakness has a far higher percentage of Have-Nots than nearly all major sporting events.

I guess I'm questioning what in the world that has to do with anything.

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But those high Daytona ticket prices support my point that The Preakness has a far higher percentage of Have-Nots than nearly all major sporting events.

I guess I'm questioning what in the world that has to do with anything.

Since The_Man emphasized "the rich" attending The Preakness or the O's game you'll have to ask him why he singled out that group rather than the majority of the people attending those events.

My point was to counter the point I believed he had made. Namely: (1) most people at those two events are not rich; and (2) the ability to attend Baltimore sporting events unscathed, whether rich or poor, is not why the average Marylander doesn't truly care about violence in certain sections of Baltimore.

The_Man later clarified that he was discussing Stephanie Rawlings-Blake's mindset rather than the average Marylander's mindset; and (I'm guessing) that the Mayor would feel more compelled to protect the minority at those events (the rich) rather than the majority (middle class) since the rich have more sway on politics and society.

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Since The_Man emphasized "the rich" attending The Preakness or the O's game you'll have to ask him why he singled out that group rather than the majority of the people attending those events.

My point was to counter his point. Namely: (1) most people at those two events are not rich; and (2) the ability to attend Baltimore sporting events unscathed, whether rich or poor, is not why the average Marylander doesn't truly care about violence in certain sections of Baltimore.

The_Man later clarified that he was discussing Stephanie Rawlings-Blake's mindset rather than the average Marylander's mindset; and (I'm guessing) that the Mayor would feel more compelled to protect the minority at those events (the rich) rather than the majority (middle class) since the rich have more sway on politics and society.

I think I said it the first time:

Meanwhile, as the worst spasm of fatal violence in perhaps the history of the City of Baltimore is ongoing, our idiot Mayor appears on TV from Preakness, wearing a ludicrous hat and talking about "we can all take a deep breath" now that things have gotten back to normal following the Freddie Gray case.

Well, they have gotten back to normal for her and her constituents - the rich, the powerful, and the downtown developers. ... So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested. Why the violence? Have the police stopped policing? Don't ask the Mayor, as she's showing the same kind of leadership now as she did during the riots themselves - which is to say none whatsoever.

I can assure you that if there had been protests or violence at the Preakness, the Mayor would not be talking about breathing a sigh of relief. But since there weren't, she is apparently very relieved by 37 homicides in 30 days.

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Since The_Man emphasized "the rich" attending The Preakness or the O's game you'll have to ask him why he singled out that group rather than the majority of the people attending those events.

My point was to counter his point. Namely: (1) most people at those two events are not rich; and (2) the ability to attend Baltimore sporting events unscathed, whether rich or poor, is not why the average Marylander doesn't truly care about violence in certain sections of Baltimore.

The_Man later clarified that he was discussing Stephanie Rawlings-Blake's mindset rather than the average Marylander's mindset; and (I'm guessing) that the Mayor would feel more compelled to protect the minority at those events (the rich) rather than the majority (middle class) since the rich have more sway on politics and society.

I think I said it the first time:

Meanwhile, as the worst spasm of fatal violence in perhaps the history of the City of Baltimore is ongoing, our idiot Mayor appears on TV from Preakness, wearing a ludicrous hat and talking about "we can all take a deep breath" now that things have gotten back to normal following the Freddie Gray case.

Well, they have gotten back to normal for her and her constituents - the rich, the powerful, and the downtown developers. ... So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested. Why the violence? Have the police stopped policing? Don't ask the Mayor, as she's showing the same kind of leadership now as she did during the riots themselves - which is to say none whatsoever.

I can assure you that if there had been protests or violence at the Preakness, the Mayor would not be talking about breathing a sigh of relief. But since there weren't, she is apparently very relieved by 37 homicides in 30 days.

Agreed with the highlighted. You did spell it out the first time; but, in haste, I didn't digest your point. Classic case of arguing two different points because there's no mutual assent of the minds.

With that said, I agree that you made a point which I failed to recognize, but I don't necessarily believe that Rawlings-Blake is fine with the current level of violence. How could a rational mayor be?* Rawlings-Blake may have intimated that she's comfortable the current state of post-riot Baltimore, but she may have competing interests for not highlighting Baltimore's spike in violence during an interview at a national event.

Perhaps she wanted to reassure a national audience that Baltimore is back to normal so that potential tourists and event planners (and the money they bring which the city depends on) can feel comfortable that Baltimore is a safe place to visit.

Perhaps she is trying to put on a brave face to engender confidence in Baltimore's citizens and workers who may not be as aware of the spike in violence as you or me.

Or perhaps, for her own career purposes, Rawlings-Blake doesn't want to highlight that she's helming a sinking ship.

There can be several reasons for the Mayor's apparent indifference during that particular interview other than Rawlings-Blake cares more about rich business interests more than black-on-black violence; but, sure, that is also a possibility.

* I'm open to the possibility that Rawlings-Blake is irrational.

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Since The_Man emphasized "the rich" attending The Preakness or the O's game you'll have to ask him why he singled out that group rather than the majority of the people attending those events.

My point was to counter his point. Namely: (1) most people at those two events are not rich; and (2) the ability to attend Baltimore sporting events unscathed, whether rich or poor, is not why the average Marylander doesn't truly care about violence in certain sections of Baltimore.

The_Man later clarified that he was discussing Stephanie Rawlings-Blake's mindset rather than the average Marylander's mindset; and (I'm guessing) that the Mayor would feel more compelled to protect the minority at those events (the rich) rather than the majority (middle class) since the rich have more sway on politics and society.

I think I said it the first time:

Meanwhile, as the worst spasm of fatal violence in perhaps the history of the City of Baltimore is ongoing, our idiot Mayor appears on TV from Preakness, wearing a ludicrous hat and talking about "we can all take a deep breath" now that things have gotten back to normal following the Freddie Gray case.

Well, they have gotten back to normal for her and her constituents - the rich, the powerful, and the downtown developers. ... So now the City is in terrible straits, but nobody cares since the riots are over and rich people can again go to Preakness and the Orioles games unmolested. Why the violence? Have the police stopped policing? Don't ask the Mayor, as she's showing the same kind of leadership now as she did during the riots themselves - which is to say none whatsoever.

I can assure you that if there had been protests or violence at the Preakness, the Mayor would not be talking about breathing a sigh of relief. But since there weren't, she is apparently very relieved by 37 homicides in 30 days.

Agreed with the highlighted. You did spell it out the first time; but, in haste, I didn't digest your point. Classic case of arguing two different points because there's no mutual assent of the minds.

With that said, I agree that you made a point which I failed to recognize, but I don't necessarily believe that Rawlings-Blake is fine with the current level of violence. How could a rational mayor be?* Rawlings-Blake may have intimated that she's comfortable the current state of post-riot Baltimore, but she may have competing interests for not highlighting Baltimore's spike in violence during an interview at a national event.

Perhaps she wanted to reassure a national audience that Baltimore is back to normal so that potential tourists and event planners (and the money they bring which the city depends on) can feel comfortable that Baltimore is a safe place to visit.

Perhaps she is trying to put on a brave face to engender confidence in Baltimore's citizens and workers who may not be as aware of the spike in violence as you or me.

Or perhaps, for her own career purposes, Rawlings-Blake doesn't want to highlight that she's helming a sinking ship.

There can be several reasons for the Mayor's apparent indifference during that particular interview other than Rawlings-Blake cares more about rich business interests more than black-on-black violence; but, sure, that is also a possibility.

* I'm open to the possibility that Rawlings-Blake is irrational.

A lot of us here in Baltimore really aren't sure what to think about her right now. Like, seriously, it's a mystery. I have already posted you that some people believe she let the riots get out of control, waiting for the Governor to send in the National Guard on his own volition, so that she wouldn't have to be the bad guy calling in troops on her own city and leaving him to take the blame if things went bad. It's certainly plausible, considering she was nowhere to be seen or heard for hours that Monday as things increasingly got out of control.

Then she imposed the curfew for a full week, long after it was needed.

And now she's seemingly either paralyzed by, or immune to, the incredible spike in homicides and shootings taking place over the last month. She is a creature of the ruling class, and she has evinced far more angst and concern for the property destroyed on April 27 (and remember, there were no deaths associated with the riots) than she has for any of the lives lost since. By the time the next election rolls around, she will have served as Mayor for 6 years despite only being elected once - about 18 months after she assumed office following the previous Mayor's conviction. She is so far in over her head at this point, it's hard to say what she's doing. Her current strategy for the murder outbreak is to ignore it and hope it either goes away or nobody notices it. So far, it seems like most people aren't noticing it because it's not affecting their neighborhoods and they're just glad there's no more rioting

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