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RB Leonard Fournette, TB


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3 minutes ago, Manster said:

I hate it when people say "no disrespect" and they go right on disrespectin.

We know Fournette can be polarizing guy.....but he's the face of your team pretty much...so his words and actions matter....what he's really saying is he wants to play with Cam and not minshew.  This is how locker room cancers grow.

Well now he's playing with neither... so there's that.

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11 hours ago, skinsrule05 said:

Not a good way to start out on a new team. I don’t think many players respect badmouthing prior teammates publicly. It doesn’t matter if it’s true. A lot of the league goes by the mantra of keep it in the locker room. 

Exactly. 10 cent head on 100 dollar body.

:lmao: @ the pic with TB12. Calls to mind similar temporary attachments to Antonio Brown and Josh Gordon. Maybe TB12 is getting softer than his arm in his old age

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On 9/7/2020 at 2:08 PM, Hot Sauce Guy said:

 

I don’t see McCoy moving the needle on anyone’s value at this stage of his career. 

Last year a light went on for RoJo - he thoroughly out-played the same Barber you referred to earlier, and took the reins of that job, despite paying behind an OL that couldn’t stop a stiff breeze & with Winston constantly turning it over and generating negative game scripts. 

I watched a lot of his play last year and saw noticeable improvement. He was in better shape than 2018, made more decisive cuts and showed improved vision.

since time moves linearly, it seems like weighing his more recent performance heavier than his rookie season or college career is the logical way to evaluate a player, and he looked like he was primed for a breakout season.

I was not alone in that assessment. But then Fournette became available on the cheap & the Bucs pounced.

if anything it seems like a 2-way RBBC, but we will all have to see some games played before we know what roles are carved out for whom.  With Brady behind center I don’t expect the otherworldly numbers some are giddy about with this passing game, but I do expect him to be a hell of a lot better than 30-pick Winston, which should have a trickle down effect on the RBs. More touched, positive game scripts, run to set up the pass, and likely more RZ/GL opportunities. 

Its possible both these RBs are flex-worthy, it’s possible Fournette takes over & it’s possible RoJo is the early down back & Fournette the James White of TB. 

honestly I have no idea at the moment. As a dynasty RoJo owner I was really hoping to finally see my cheap investment pay off, so I admit to being a little salty, but I feel like you’re being a little dishonest about how RoJo developed last year, despite surrounding circumstances,

fair? 

Fair. (FYI I didn't feel this was an emotional thing, I agreed with your point we were having an argument/debate. It's good stuff).

I think though week 1 is just showing it's more of the same for Rojo. I will be shocked if he's not supplanted by Fournette at some point (I don't love Fournette either) or at least an inefficient, 2-way RBBC. 

Of course, it's not just Rojo. Arians blocking scheme is TERRIBLE. It's a big weakness of his, he' runs a vanilla man blocking scheme. None of the zone, misdirection, sweeps you see with consistently good running games like Reid, Shanahan or McVay. Arians/Leftwich, as we're seeing Week 1. 

But Rojo just isn't a good modern back. I think a good comparison is Sony Michel (except I don't know how Sony Michel's pass pro is). Rojo is still a 2 down RB who struggles at pass pro. He almost whiffed on a Saints blitz (got a small piece of the blitzer) that hit Brady but almost got him killed. 

Watching him today, I'm seeing the same lack of development. Yes, it's better than Year 1. But that's like saying Spinach Meatloaf is better than Spam lol.

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23 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

You think his lack of usage will continue, or are they just starting him out slowly?

Fournette sucks I guess. Meh they'll probably cut him. Jones looks elite and Fournette looks horrible. He doesn't belong in the NFL. He's lucky the Bucs are paying him what they are to watch the games.

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Just now, Milkman said:

Fournette sucks I guess. Meh they'll probably cut him. Jones looks elite and Fournette looks horrible. He doesn't belong in the NFL. He's lucky the Bucs are paying him what they are to watch the games.

That may be a little rash, or was it :sarcasm:  I suspect he could be used more as the season progresses.  

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

That may be a little rash, or was it :sarcasm:  I suspect he could be used more as the season progresses.  

Nah bro he sucks. It'll take an injury to Jones for him to get on the field much. He's likely un-startable all year. 

If you own him in dynasty like I do you just saw him lose all his value. He's worth poop at this point. Can't even get a 2nd for him i bet. 

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8 minutes ago, Manster said:

If you watched Fournette in Jax you are not surprised right now.  I mean it's a brand new system for him, but he is what he is.......3 yards and a cloud of dust

Coach.....it's 3rd and 1,...give me the ball and I'll get you 3 yards.

Coach.....it's 3rd and 5....give me the ball and I'll get you 3 yards.

Edited by JohnnyU
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5 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Nah bro he sucks. It'll take an injury to Jones for him to get on the field much. He's likely un-startable all year. 

If you own him in dynasty like I do you just saw him lose all his value. He's worth poop at this point. Can't even get a 2nd for him i bet. 

I don't, but a lot can happen over the course of a season.

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Quote

Leonard Fournette rushed five times for five yards in the Bucs' Week 1 loss to the Saints, adding a 14-yard reception. 

Fournette played a grand total of nine snaps as Ronald Jones notched 33 and LeSean McCoy 25. The good news is that Fournette handled the ball on 66 percent of those plays. RoJo flashed some juice against a tough defense but didn't do enough to create any real daylight between himself and his new backfield mate. It's a good bet that Fournette will be on the field for 20-plus plays in Week 2 against the Panthers, but that still leaves him as a volatile FLEX option. 

SOURCE: Nathan Jahnke on Twitter 

Sep 14, 2020, 1:59 PM ET

 

 

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Yeah, Fournette wasn't involved at all and while Ronald Jones didn't blast off the page vs. a tough unit he didn't have any mistakes either and looked decent. Fournette can't attempt to gain ground on Jones until he gets up to speed with the playbook.

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While I don't like Fournette or Rojo as RBs (both are bad pass blockers and really inefficient runners), they're upside is further capped by Arians scheme. 

With Arizona, his teams were 23rd, 31st, 8th, 18th, and 30th in rushing yardage (Bucs were 24th last year). The one good season was that magical 2015 season.

His scheme is vanilla and lacks all the motions, pulls, zones, etc. of strong running schemes like those run by Shanahan, Reid or McVay. It's always been a weakness of his offenses. Because of that mediocre backs like Rojo and Fournette have their upside further capped. 

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1 minute ago, btemp said:

While I don't like Fournette or Rojo as RBs (both are bad pass blockers and really inefficient runners), they're upside is further capped by Arians scheme. 

With Arizona, his teams were 23rd, 31st, 8th, 18th, and 30th in rushing yardage (Bucs were 24th last year). The one good season was that magical 2015 season.

His scheme is vanilla and lacks all the motions, pulls, zones, etc. of strong running schemes like those run by Shanahan, Reid or McVay. It's always been a weakness of his offenses. Because of that mediocre backs like Rojo and Fournette have their upside further capped. 

Why are we writing off Jones as mediocre? 2nd round pick. Hes 23 years old and has fresh legs.  I'm buying here at his value. Did you even watch the game last night? He would've had 100 all purpose yards yesterday if Brady doesnt under throw him and if Evan's doesn't take his patented once a game stupid holding penalty.

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1 hour ago, The Frankman said:

Yeah, Fournette wasn't involved at all and while Ronald Jones didn't blast off the page vs. a tough unit he didn't have any mistakes either and looked decent. Fournette can't attempt to gain ground on Jones until he gets up to speed with the playbook.

Fournette was on the field for 9 plays and touched the ball 7 times.

R Jones has been on that team for 3 years and has continually shown exactly nothing and is suspect in pass protection. His shelf life is about two more weeks.

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6 hours ago, Manster said:

If you watched Fournette in Jax you are not surprised right now.  I mean it's a brand new system for him, but he is what he is.......3 yards and a cloud of dust

 

49 minutes ago, btemp said:

While I don't like Fournette or Rojo as RBs (both are bad pass blockers and really inefficient runners), they're upside is further capped by Arians scheme. 

With Arizona, his teams were 23rd, 31st, 8th, 18th, and 30th in rushing yardage (Bucs were 24th last year). The one good season was that magical 2015 season.

His scheme is vanilla and lacks all the motions, pulls, zones, etc. of strong running schemes like those run by Shanahan, Reid or McVay. It's always been a weakness of his offenses. Because of that mediocre backs like Rojo and Fournette have their upside further capped. 

 

48 minutes ago, YoUnG GuNz said:

Jones looked very agile/shifty. He got yards several times when nothing was there. Fournette looked stuck in the mud - zero burst. I dont see much of a role for him moving forward. I'm not sure he does anything better than Jones/Shady at this point.  I'm buying RoJo low if I can.

I'm generally aligned with these takes. Fournette has just arrived, and I think we have yet to see how he'll be utilized and how this will pan out.

Just from the eye test yesterday, RoJo loked to the be the better back. How much that was attributed to time in scheme, who knows, and to be fair, both backs were facing a really stout run D which contributes to how both looked. 

But Fournette did look a little plodding and running with less "vision" -- both were met hard on the ground but RoJo seemed to make more out of nothing more consistently. It's a really small sample and we can't discount Fournette's prior success. But we also can't discount that there was a reason why JAX was comfortable letting him go, and it may not have only to do with money and attitude. It could be that they saw Fournette was more name brand than execution. Still a long season, and still lots to pan out. Not saying this is what it will be but having Fournette be a backup/CoP/short down role to Rojo as a starter with the majority of carries is more a possibility in my mind than it was prior to week 1.

The idea that regardless of how this pans out, Arians will find a way to muck it up is also relevant. @btemp that's some pretty salient analysis there, and just watching what Arians did with Barber and Rojo over the last few years has been baffling. Not only didn't he carve roles based on where these backs' talents and performance led, but he also didn't seem to make changes when it was clear that RoJo was more productive last season (or when Barber was more productive the year before) -- it seemed like an RBBC without rhyme or reason, choosing to start one back the game after the other back had a great game against a similar D.

In the end, I think that no matter if Fournette finds TB to be an incredible breath of fresh air to reinvigorate a promising career, or if he pans out as a sluggish plodder as he's sometimes looked (including this week), both Fournette and Rojo are limited by Arians' scheme and approach to using both backs (or more to the point,  the lack of a scheme/approach).

Edited by Stompin' Tom Connors
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12 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

They both did nothing- Jones had one impressive run and looked like his typical self on his other touches - run straight into defenders.

I thought the biggest takeaway is the TB OL is still pretty mediocre. 

Bur the runs I saw, RoJo looked better to my eye. What I thought was most impressive was the catch Jones had to come back for so far he fall a little, then regained his balance and took it forward for a few yards. 

That play had disaster written all over it & Jones bailed Brady out. 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
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None of them looked good. I was high on Rojo coming out of school but I think it was a mistake to put on so much weight. He's definitely pretty plodding now. Would rather he'd stayed his smaller electric self even if it meant a lesser workload. 

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Just now, Dr. Octopus said:

Color me shocked.

I never said I wasn’t biased. ;) 

that said he ran with more power and confidence. The results weren’t always good but it may also have had something to do with being the incumbent & knowing the playbook. 

But he did have 2 stand-out plays (the big carry & the reception I mentioned) to Fournette’s 0.

Overall I think TB’s OL is a problem for both RBs and Brady. He looked befuddled out there at times. 

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Just now, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I never said I wasn’t biased. ;) 

that said he ran with more power and confidence. The results weren’t always good but it may also have had something to do with being the incumbent & knowing the playbook. 

But he did have 2 stand-out plays (the big carry & the reception I mentioned) to Fournette’s 0.

Overall I think TB’s OL is a problem for both RBs and Brady. He looked befuddled out there at times. 

He had one nice run. Fournette had one nice run as well (not as impressive as Jones’) but looked bad on the others. I doubt we learned much in that game as far as what the splits will look like in the future.

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On 9/14/2020 at 1:29 PM, YoUnG GuNz said:

Why are we writing off Jones as mediocre? 2nd round pick. Hes 23 years old and has fresh legs.  I'm buying here at his value. Did you even watch the game last night? He would've had 100 all purpose yards yesterday if Brady doesnt under throw him and if Evan's doesn't take his patented once a game stupid holding penalty.

As a Bucs fan, I've watched every one of Jones snaps. Did you watch him Sunday? He's still struggling to find a hole. When well blocked and with an easy read he'll put his foot in the ground and gets some yards. Jones has below average vision, receiving, and pass blocking ability. His only utility in the passing game is with screens, he can't run any other routes well (although he has some value in the screen game). 

The idea "He could've had 100 all purpose yards" ignores what he did with his touches - which is very little. He averaged 3.9 yards a carry which accurately reflects how he looked. As Dr. Octopus said, he had one nice run. But he also had a few where he missed the hole or failed to move through it quickly enough. 

I've been saying this since his rookie year. People are holding out hope for a player that doesn't exist and by midseason will likely be supplanted by Fournette. 

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On 9/14/2020 at 2:12 PM, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

 

 

I'm generally aligned with these takes. Fournette has just arrived, and I think we have yet to see how he'll be utilized and how this will pan out.

Just from the eye test yesterday, RoJo loked to the be the better back. How much that was attributed to time in scheme, who knows, and to be fair, both backs were facing a really stout run D which contributes to how both looked. 

But Fournette did look a little plodding and running with less "vision" -- both were met hard on the ground but RoJo seemed to make more out of nothing more consistently. It's a really small sample and we can't discount Fournette's prior success. But we also can't discount that there was a reason why JAX was comfortable letting him go, and it may not have only to do with money and attitude. It could be that they saw Fournette was more name brand than execution. Still a long season, and still lots to pan out. Not saying this is what it will be but having Fournette be a backup/CoP/short down role to Rojo as a starter with the majority of carries is more a possibility in my mind than it was prior to week 1.

The idea that regardless of how this pans out, Arians will find a way to muck it up is also relevant. @btemp that's some pretty salient analysis there, and just watching what Arians did with Barber and Rojo over the last few years has been baffling. Not only didn't he carve roles based on where these backs' talents and performance led, but he also didn't seem to make changes when it was clear that RoJo was more productive last season (or when Barber was more productive the year before) -- it seemed like an RBBC without rhyme or reason, choosing to start one back the game after the other back had a great game against a similar D.

In the end, I think that no matter if Fournette finds TB to be an incredible breath of fresh air to reinvigorate a promising career, or if he pans out as a sluggish plodder as he's sometimes looked (including this week), both Fournette and Rojo are limited by Arians' scheme and approach to using both backs (or more to the point,  the lack of a scheme/approach).

I'm not sold on Fournette being a better back, they're slightly different players (although both suck at pass blocking, don't contribute much in the passing game, and are inefficient runners). 

My concern with Fournette is that he's been such a volume guy. His fantasy relevance has come from his ability to get a high number of carries. Even if he supplants Jones, I don't think he gets those volume opportunities in Tampa. 

And ultimately, I agree they will be limited by the scheme. Also the OL (although it's less a factor than the scheme). The Bucs have a mis-match of blocking types (zone guys like Marpet and Jensen with man-on-man blockers like Wirfs and Smith).

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Tampa OL looks schwag. I don't know much about them. One game anomaly against a good Saints D? Or sign of things to come? This issue, if an issue, is most concerning as it pertains to Brady IMO, and then the potentially dramatic trickle down from there. Dude is not used to pressure - in this sense before the Tom Brady lifers jump all over me - with a deep passing game. Big Belly is a hard head, but smart enough to be flexible to morph his system to fit the strengths and hide the weaknesses of the players he has in each given year. I'm not so sure that Arians is the same. My perception is that dude is committed to 7-step drops almost no matter what - sketch OL and 43-yr-old iron-footed QB be damned.

You know what would help Brady and the OL if the above has merit? A commitment to play-action passing off a power running game. I think I can see it from my couch. Will Arians see it from his?

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On 9/14/2020 at 5:12 PM, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

and just watching what Arians did with Barber and Rojo over the last few years has been baffling. Not only didn't he carve roles based on where these backs' talents and performance led, but he also didn't seem to make changes when it was clear that RoJo was more productive last season (or when Barber was more productive the year before) 

Last year was Arians’ first year in Tampa. 

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4 hours ago, btemp said:

As a Bucs fan, I've watched every one of Jones snaps. Did you watch him Sunday? He's still struggling to find a hole. When well blocked and with an easy read he'll put his foot in the ground and gets some yards. Jones has below average vision, receiving, and pass blocking ability. His only utility in the passing game is with screens, he can't run any other routes well (although he has some value in the screen game). 

The idea "He could've had 100 all purpose yards" ignores what he did with his touches - which is very little. He averaged 3.9 yards a carry which accurately reflects how he looked. As Dr. Octopus said, he had one nice run. But he also had a few where he missed the hole or failed to move through it quickly enough. 

I've been saying this since his rookie year. People are holding out hope for a player that doesn't exist and by midseason will likely be supplanted by Fournette. 

I'm not disagreeing with you about Jones, but have you seen fournette run?  

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16 minutes ago, richn said:

We have a new #1 RB in TB going forward.  A steal in the 8th round!!!!!!

Yeah I think today was the script TB was envisioning... acquiring Brady should (should) cut back on the turnovers... taking a lead into the 4th QTR... and feeding Fournette to close it out.

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Quote

Leonard Fournette rushed 12 times for 103 yards and two touchdowns in the Bucs' Week 1 win over the Panthers, adding four catches for 13 yards.

Fournette handled 16 backfield touches, compared to nine for Ronald Jones and six for Lesean McCoy. The Bucs held positive gamescript for the entire contest, and Fournette operated as the team's second half closer, which included a 46-yard score late in the fourth quarter to put the game on ice. Jones and Tom Brady had a miscommunication on a hand-off, likely leading to Fournette's increased usage. Producing on this opportunity could catapult Fournette to the teams No. 1 RB slot. He faces the Broncos in Week 3.

Sep 20, 2020, 4:26 PM ET

 

 

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