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Charcandrick WEST - Should we be talking about this kid ?


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Anyone trading for him? Interested to see what his value is after a clunker and then a good game.

I was offered West and Cobb for Hopkins, but feel like I can't figure out West's value rest of season.

his schedule looks like mostly neutral or favorable matchups including a nice week 16 game home against cleveland. with 15 touches each week you'd think that should be rb2 level production

8 Det - - - - 9 BYE - - - - 10 @Den - - - - 11 @SD - - - - 12 Buf - - - - 13 @Oak - - - - 14 SD - - - - 15 @Bal - - - - 16 Cle

Edited by iamkoza
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SSD, thanks again for another highlight cut up. You're doing yeomen's work around here.

Watching those clips, I'm impressed by West's burst and cutback vision. He made some nice gains cutting inside against the grain. And yet at other times, he also did great trusting his blockers to open late-breaking holes. That play design discipline will earn him points with his coaches, which is huge for a young RB. I also didn't notice any missing pass blocking assignments, so that's another positive.

My main disappointment in that reel was the lack of power. Dude looks like he could pack a punch, but I didn't see it on any of his runs. Not that it's a huge deal if the rest of his game is sound, but it's always nice to see an RB truck a few defenders and I don't think we'll see much of that from West. Didn't seem to affect his GL usage this game, but might be something to watch for.

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He was utilized 27 times vs. PIT so I had to make two videos for him this week.

C. West Week 7 vs. PIT (Part 1)

C. West Week 7 vs. PIT (Part 2)

Keep in mind he essentially ran over the rushing defense who was allowing the 3rd least PPG to RBs going into this game.

My observations..

- He's deceptively good in between the tackles. He's not grinding out yards but he has good enough vision and burst that he can dart through holes pretty quickly. My only beef with him is wasted movement, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread he flails his arms a bunch when changing direction.

- KC is feeding him in the RZ. I'm hoping Ware doesn't step up as a GL option but right now he's seeing a bunch touches/targets in the RZ much like Charles would.

In all honesty, I really do think he has RB1 upside moving forward. There's really only a handful of RBs who dominate touches in between the 20s, in the RZ and receive targets in the passing game. The schedule isn't daunting either, I see he draws SD twice and CLE once in the playoffs. He's a firm hold.

Thanks for the videos. Really, really appreciate those.

Hard to pencil him in as anything more than RB2 after one dud and one good game, but you are correct that he's got RB1 upside. Waldman mentioned his SPARQ score was very good (better than Tre Mason for instance) but cautioned that from what little he's seen of him, his vision didn't appear to be that great. He also mentioned the offensive line is somewhere in the middle of the league. But anyone getting such a huge % of the workload, including goal line, should be a lock for RB2 production and if it turns out he's got better vision than anticipated then he could easily put up RB1 numbers. Charles was getting about 15 carries and 6.5 targets before injury. If West gets that, it should be enough for roughly 100 YFS per game (Charles was averaging 114). Sprinkle in some TDs and you're golden.

I think the one of the most important variables moving forward is going to be whether or not KC can keep games close and optimally (for our purposes) hold a lead. West actually saw mores carries last week (22) than Charles saw in any game all season. I'm going to assume it's because KC was nursing the lead. There were games where Charles would barely see 10 carries and I have to assume its because of gameflow.

KC is favored vs. DET this week (line moved to -5). I've noticed that KC's defense has played better at home this year as well. I think this will be a good week to roll West out again.

I think West will be somewhat similar to the Doug Martins and the Carlos Hydes and LeGarrette Blounts of the world in that his production will be game flow dependent since Reid tends to abandon the running game when playing catch up. If you have a close start/sit decision due to depth at RB I think you can start West in the games KC is a 3 point underdog or better and sit him otherwise.

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But West should be the one in the games catching dump offs when they are down. I feel like he's a pretty safe play as far as getting touches regardless of game plan.

Yeah you're right but I think there will be some sort of middle ground with him. He's different than the other backs mentioned in that he'll be the passing down back but at the same time I don't think he'll be a purposeful weapon in the passing game like a Jamaal or a Forte or a Le'Veon. KC is different now in that they actually have weapons to throw to like Maclin and Kelce unlike the last couple years. I see West being used more like an emergency dump off whereas with Jamaal it was more of a necessity to get the ball in his hands. But then again it's Alex Smith and he checks down more than anyone so maybe the dropoff from Jamaal to West in the passing game won't be all that much.

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It's actually getting pretty tiresome to hear FBG dump on this guy at every opportunity. Cecil is ranting about David Cobb like he's the second coming of AP and clinging onto the C-Mike dream, while at the same time going out of his way to make excuses for why West had a good game last week. To hear Cecil tell it, he only took advantage of the worst defensive performance in the history of the universe by the Steelers. But he's still not good at all and we shouldn't give him the time of day, as if he's no better than Jackie Battle.

Bloom has been dismissive of him on three consecutive waiver wire shows, reluctantly acknowledging that he might be a flex play going forward. Here we have a legitimate three down back with no competition for touches in an offense that features the running back. Sure, it's not a good offense and West's talent might not be elite, but with RBs being what they are this year, West has significant value to a lot of teams. On volume/opportunity alone, I don't see why he's not an every week RB2 going forward, with upside for more in good matchups/game scripts.

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Rush they are talent evaluators. Obviously West was not thought of very highly at the senior bowl of whatever and that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of a players career regardless of how that player is currently performing. I wonder when the evaluation of West playing for KC occurs in this talent evaluation?

I never watched West in college or evaluated him as a rookie prospect. Just another player I didn't get around to. When I saw him play this preseason I was impressed and I think he is a capable RB that deserves to be starting over Knile Davis. That presents another opportunity for talent evaluation. Some may think Davis is more talented than West and that there will be more of a time share between the 2RB than there has been so far.

The Denver and Buffalo games will be difficult match ups that might lead to poor games like he had against the Vikings. He should see a lot of screen opportunities regardless and the other match ups look decent.

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Rush they are talent evaluators. Obviously West was not thought of very highly at the senior bowl of whatever and that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of a players career regardless of how that player is currently performing. I wonder when the evaluation of West playing for KC occurs in this talent evaluation?

This is a good point.

But some of these people when they figure a player to "not be very talented", often omit one key factor in fantasy, and thats sometimes that scenario/circumstance + workload are every bit as important in many cases. In some cases its even more important. This is especially so when its related to fantasy football.

As an owner of West in 2 leagues, I know he may not be the most talented back in the league, but that also doesn't matter to me.

What DOES matter is how well he performs when and if I need to play him on my teams.

In many cases I would just as soon have a "fair" back, when he gets 20+ touches out of necessity than a world beater that may only get 3-5.

I will likely use him as part of my "committee" and spot start him when needed, and he looks to be serviceable as far as that is concerned.

I think we all know the story of Matt Asiata last year.

He is pretty much regarded in most spots as a "less than premiere" NFL running back. (I will do my best not to be negative) :P

But some owners used him very effectively at times last year and he helped many a team get to the championships last year.

TZM

Edited by TZMarkie
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I didn't like Asiata in comparison to McKinnon last year but my appreciation for what Asiata can do has grown quite a bit since then.

The who evaluation of talent thing is a bit baffling to me. Every player is talented. Some in more ways than others. Players who cannot even make a NFL roster have proven to be great starters when given the opportunity. This tells me that the talent level even outside of the NFL is very high.

So I don't think we are talking about different levels of talent that are clear or distinguishable. All of the players are very close in talent compared to each other. It is more about all the little things that makes a player a pro instead of a back up. That makes a good football player not just a talent. The margins in talent are very small, the skills such as blocking, situational awareness are more important when there are many players of near the same level of talent.

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But West should be the one in the games catching dump offs when they are down. I feel like he's a pretty safe play as far as getting touches regardless of game plan.

DeAnthony Thomas should, He's not much of a WR and as a RB if he's got open field he can fly

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It's actually getting pretty tiresome to hear FBG dump on this guy at every opportunity. Cecil is ranting about David Cobb like he's the second coming of AP and clinging onto the C-Mike dream, while at the same time going out of his way to make excuses for why West had a good game last week. To hear Cecil tell it, he only took advantage of the worst defensive performance in the history of the universe by the Steelers. But he's still not good at all and we shouldn't give him the time of day, as if he's no better than Jackie Battle.

Bloom has been dismissive of him on three consecutive waiver wire shows, reluctantly acknowledging that he might be a flex play going forward. Here we have a legitimate three down back with no competition for touches in an offense that features the running back. Sure, it's not a good offense and West's talent might not be elite, but with RBs being what they are this year, West has significant value to a lot of teams. On volume/opportunity alone, I don't see why he's not an every week RB2 going forward, with upside for more in good matchups/game scripts.

Agreed.

What I'm learning the hard way this year is that, when it comes to evaluating RBs for fantasy football purposes, coaching tendencies and talent relative to the other players on the same team are much more important than talent relative to other NFL starters. Knile is more talented than West but for whatever reason he's not getting it done on the field. It's basically another T-Rich situation. No, West isn't a world beater but there's a huge gap between what he's done and what Knile has done this year. Also, KC had the most FF points scored by their team's RBs in 13' and 14'. And when you couple that with the fact that Reid prefers to have a workhorse instead of a RBBC I don't know how you can call West as anything worse than an RB2 ROS.

Edited by addicted2ff
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I didn't like Asiata in comparison to McKinnon last year but my appreciation for what Asiata can do has grown quite a bit since then.

The who evaluation of talent thing is a bit baffling to me. Every player is talented. Some in more ways than others. Players who cannot even make a NFL roster have proven to be great starters when given the opportunity. This tells me that the talent level even outside of the NFL is very high.

So I don't think we are talking about different levels of talent that are clear or distinguishable. All of the players are very close in talent compared to each other. It is more about all the little things that makes a player a pro instead of a back up. That makes a good football player not just a talent. The margins in talent are very small, the skills such as blocking, situational awareness are more important when there are many players of near the same level of talent.

I agree.... and I didn't think you really compared the two, I was just using an extreme example.

You know, there is one other factor, and I hardly, hardly ever, ever see it in print, when it comes to this.

I think there is a difference when it comes down to outright luck for players also.... especially right when they come into the league or in certain "game changing" situations early in their careers. I'm not saying certain players are "luckier" than others really, follow me on this.

Give any 2 WRs a random sampling of say 3 games, and in the short term one will have better numbers than the other.

Call it what you will.

Think about a "fair" WR, that is thrust upon a big stage several times in a season, whether it is several Monday Night Football televised games, or a couple of playoff games. If he "gets a bit lucky" and makes a handful of huge plays for the world to see, (and suppose the rest of his numbers are middle of the pack) he has likely landed himself a HUGE contract going forward.

A good example may well be Mike Wallace.

I know he had a few big catches on nationally televised Steeler games early in his career, from Big Ben too, a "better than average" QB.

He is hardly deserving of all that money he gets, and his numbers have slowly seemed to dwindle.

Imagine a player like Gary Barnidge, this "decent player" got a few extra targets early this year (for a variety of reasons), and he did very well with them.

Can we say he was never that talented before now? I hardly think he somehow took a "talent pill" and grew into a solid player overnight after being in the league all this time.

He happened to get all those extra targets, and then he had the "butt catch".

He was likely a little bit "lucky" on these targets, and then it grew into a bigger role for him and he has capitalized. Realize I am not being negative, just calling it for what it likely is.

I liken it to the "Trent Richardson scenario". He looked pretty good when he was at Cleveland in his rookie year.

Sure he wasn't a game changer, but he was solid.

One would think , that coupled with his "mediocre-to-good" numbers the whole season, he got lucky on a few of those screen passes that year, and had big lanes, and it inflated his numbers.

Then as time went on, Cleveland in fact realized that he wasn't really that talented, they offed him to the Colts and the rest is history.

The names we could list like this is probably a close to endless list.

How does this correlate to West?

I don't believe him to be special by any means, but I think he is definitely startable down the stretch in the right matchups.

He has the coaching behind him, so unless he is just awful, he will likely be the starter the rest of the year.

We could all probably use his RB2-ish numbers down the stretch....and bench him in the bad matchups.

I for one don't mind having several of these guys on my fantasy teams and mixing and matching my way to decent numbers.

TZM

Edited by TZMarkie
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A guy that would be out of the league in a year or two will now, because of charles' injury, be fantasy worthy for years and might derail any hope kniles Davis ever had.

So, yes, luck and situation are major players in career paths, as was said above.

For years? Might be getting ahead of ourselves. But he is a nice find.
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97/1TD and 4/25 in the passing game. Would've toppled 100 again but tweaked his hamstring and came out. He's solid folks... and has a great schedule upcoming.

Yeah, I was reading he tweaked his hamstring. Good thing he has a bye next week, hope it's not serious.

Didn't look like it. He came back in and got stopped for no gain and asked to come out. Probably realized he's gimpy and didn't want to risk anything. Never looked in pain. Was hurt on a horsecollar.

Edited by oddsbodkins
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97/1TD and 4/25 in the passing game. Would've toppled 100 again but tweaked his hamstring and came out. He's solid folks... and has a great schedule upcoming.

I saw him hold his hammy after that last 30 yard scamper, when he was pulled down with a horse collar tackle. Glad he has a bye week coming up. Hope that hammy tweak was just mild.

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A guy that would be out of the league in a year or two will now, because of charles' injury, be fantasy worthy for years and might derail any hope kniles Davis ever had.

So, yes, luck and situation are major players in career paths, as was said above.

What? You think he's going to unseat Charles next year? If I'm reading it right, it looks like they could cut Charles next year and save $6 million on their cap, but I really doubt that'll happen.

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Was just offered a 2017 1st (pick could truly be anywhere from 1-12) for West.

I do not NEED him with Ivory, Lewis, Miller, and Jeremy Hill on my team, but I really have no gauge on what this guy's future could be

I just traded a 2016 2nd and 3rd (8-12) for West. I had Foster go down last week and Bell this week (I have D. Williams). I have quite a bit of draft capital going into 2016 and a pretty deep roster so I figured I would take a shot.

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I don't think he is getting the respect he deserves talent wise. People are acting like he is some Ron Dayne type. He has some skill. He has got some moves and good speed, along with decent power and pass catching. people were going bananas (including footballguys) pimping Knile davis and to me he has more skill and a better fit. Call me Andy Reid I guess, but to my eye he's better and deserves to have beaten out Knile Davis, even though Knile did well with his opps last time Charles went down.

I wont apologize for his lack of skill like a lot of the other Sharc owners on here and disagree with Bloom/Cecil's take. I mentioned that from the start, when Charles went down ... when I first picked him up. He is passing the eye test for me and is confirming by getting results on the field, even as far back as pre-season. The signs were there. He's no Dion Lewis (but who is), sure but he has enough skill to get excited for his prospects ROS, not just as a fill in guy like Alfred Blue.

Edited by mnmplayer
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I find this to be odd although game script has been in his favor.

Since the start of 2014, Jamaal Charles has four 20-plus carry games in 20 starts. Charcandrick West has two the last two weeks. #chiefs

Its what I had been hammering on since the end of last year. >>> The Chiefs were trying to restrict Charles' touches.

After the injury to JC its part of the reason I liked West so much. >>> They had no reason to not load up CW with lots of touches.

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I find this to be odd although game script has been in his favor.

Eli Waterman@EliWaterman 4m4 minutes ago

Since the start of 2014, Jamaal Charles has four 20-plus carry games in 20 starts. Charcandrick West has two the last two weeks. #chiefs

Its what I had been hammering on since the end of last year. >>> The Chiefs were trying to restrict Charles' touches.

After the injury to JC its part of the reason I liked West so much. >>> They had no reason to not load up CW with lots of touches.

Other big factors in that Charles stat:

- He's amazingly efficient with his carries. He's been in the league for 8 years and never once averaged below 5.0 YPC. That's just ridiculous.

- He gets used in the passing game quite a bit too, and the stat above appears to be only rushing.

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Was just offered a 2017 1st (pick could truly be anywhere from 1-12) for West.

I do not NEED him with Ivory, Lewis, Miller, and Jeremy Hill on my team, but I really have no gauge on what this guy's future could be

I like Sharc, but yes, you take a random 1st for him.

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Was just offered a 2017 1st (pick could truly be anywhere from 1-12) for West.

I do not NEED him with Ivory, Lewis, Miller, and Jeremy Hill on my team, but I really have no gauge on what this guy's future could be

I like Sharc, but yes, you take a random 1st for him.

I think in most cases I would, but my team is good (going to get a 1st round bye), and I already have five 2016 1sts and three 2017 1sts already, so I kept him.

Edited by ghostguy123
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Was just offered a 2017 1st (pick could truly be anywhere from 1-12) for West.

I do not NEED him with Ivory, Lewis, Miller, and Jeremy Hill on my team, but I really have no gauge on what this guy's future could be

I like Sharc, but yes, you take a random 1st for him.

I think in most cases I would, but my team is good (going to get a 1st round bye), and I already have five 2016 1sts and three 2017 1sts already, so I kept him.

You are weighing what West can do for you over the next 5 to 8 games to what a 1st round pick can do for you next season.

Jamal Charles will likely be back healthy next season and West will likely take a back seat to him.

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Charles will be 30 and coming off a significant injury. Acl injuries aren't what they used to be, but Charles has had a lot of injuries over the years including multiple acls and high ankle sprains. He will be given the benefit of the doubt to play but he will need to recover well and stay healthy and even then they may significantly limit his playing time.

West has some hurdles ahead of him too. He obviously needs to perform well the rest of the year to have any long term value. So far, he's trending well, but he would need to play well enough to keep the job this year, then keep them from drafting/acquiring someone early, and keep them from just handing the full gig back to Charles, and possibly be good enough to have success under a new coach if Reid gets canned. There are a lot of land mines that could kill his value.

But he is young and has one of the premier opportunities in the NFL - not just the kc running back but the Andy Reid running back in Kansas City. In that system, he could be perennial top 5. Maximum upside.

So his trade value is equal to a risky potential rb1 for the rest of the season - say deangelo, although you might prefer one over the other in redraft and I wouldn't argue - plus some unknown chance at long term, leveon bell type upside.

Is that worth a first to you? As an owner, I can say I wouldn't trade him for an early second. I think a better bench mark for his price would be deangelo plus a guy like David Johnson or Rawls. It's unlikely anyone would make that exact trade, but the price point should be whatever it would take to acquire those two players.

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Was just offered a 2017 1st (pick could truly be anywhere from 1-12) for West.

I do not NEED him with Ivory, Lewis, Miller, and Jeremy Hill on my team, but I really have no gauge on what this guy's future could be

I like Sharc, but yes, you take a random 1st for him.

I think in most cases I would, but my team is good (going to get a 1st round bye), and I already have five 2016 1sts and three 2017 1sts already, so I kept him.

You are weighing what West can do for you over the next 5 to 8 games to what a 1st round pick can do for you next season.

Jamal Charles will likely be back healthy next season and West will likely take a back seat to him.

The first was in 2017 actually. I said in MOST cases i would do it. How many firsts do I need?

I ended up dealing West and a 2016 1st guaranteed to be a pick between 9-12 for Edelman after I lost Allen.

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Was just offered a 2017 1st (pick could truly be anywhere from 1-12) for West.

I do not NEED him with Ivory, Lewis, Miller, and Jeremy Hill on my team, but I really have no gauge on what this guy's future could be

I like Sharc, but yes, you take a random 1st for him.

I think in most cases I would, but my team is good (going to get a 1st round bye), and I already have five 2016 1sts and three 2017 1sts already, so I kept him.

You also don't always want to help out a guy that you may be meeting up with in the playoffs this deep into the season.

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I drafted Charles and handcuffed Davis, which as we all know has been the norm for a few years. I never got a wiff that West had taken over as the backup from FBG. FBG dropped the ball bigtime on this one. The minute West supplanted Davis as Charles handcuff they should have sent out an alert.

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I drafted Charles and handcuffed Davis, which as we all know has been the norm for a few years. I never got a wiff that West had taken over as the backup from FBG. FBG dropped the ball bigtime on this one. The minute West supplanted Davis as Charles handcuff they should have sent out an alert.

Jeez, how many emails do you want to get?

It's right there in their weekly content, and on both player pages (including the Knile Davis page) in WEEK 4, which is actually *before* the Charles injury. They note that West appears to have overtaken Davis as the handcuff. If you're not going to look at game stats (which would have shown West got all the carries when Charles went down) at least click on the Player Pages for the guys on your roster.

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I drafted Charles and handcuffed Davis, which as we all know has been the norm for a few years. I never got a wiff that West had taken over as the backup from FBG. FBG dropped the ball bigtime on this one. The minute West supplanted Davis as Charles handcuff they should have sent out an alert.

Jeez, how many emails do you want to get?

It's right there in their weekly content, and on both player pages (including the Knile Davis page) in WEEK 4, which is actually *before* the Charles injury. They note that West appears to have overtaken Davis as the handcuff. If you're not going to look at game stats (which would have shown West got all the carries when Charles went down) at least click on the Player Pages for the guys on your roster.

FBG should have went to his league home page and made the add/drop for him. What is he even paying them for?

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I drafted Charles and handcuffed Davis, which as we all know has been the norm for a few years. I never got a wiff that West had taken over as the backup from FBG. FBG dropped the ball bigtime on this one. The minute West supplanted Davis as Charles handcuff they should have sent out an alert.

I had this very same issue a few years back

If you PM Shuke and explain the situation, they will refund every dollar back to your account. They even gave me a free 3 year sub to apologize. You will need to PM Mr. Pickles and General Malaise for the free sub though. Just make sure you explain things in as much detail as you can

Good luck

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I drafted Charles and handcuffed Davis, which as we all know has been the norm for a few years. I never got a wiff that West had taken over as the backup from FBG. FBG dropped the ball bigtime on this one. The minute West supplanted Davis as Charles handcuff they should have sent out an alert.

It was a murky situation. I even recall the very week before Charles went down there was a (in retrospect very ominus) conversation on Fantasy Focus about who ACTUALLY was the handcuff here and Berry said he'd do more digging. I mean people got a "wiff" but you kind of had to be paying attention. Easy to miss.

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I drafted Charles and handcuffed Davis, which as we all know has been the norm for a few years. I never got a wiff that West had taken over as the backup from FBG. FBG dropped the ball bigtime on this one. The minute West supplanted Davis as Charles handcuff they should have sent out an alert.

I had this very same issue a few years back

If you PM Shuke and explain the situation, they will refund every dollar back to your account. They even gave me a free 3 year sub to apologize. You will need to PM Mr. Pickles and General Malaise for the free sub though. Just make sure you explain things in as much detail as you can

Good luck

And if you request the "Italian sub, no onions, heavy on the oil" (but you have to order it just like that), they thrown in a little something extra.

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I drafted Charles and handcuffed Davis, which as we all know has been the norm for a few years. I never got a wiff that West had taken over as the backup from FBG. FBG dropped the ball bigtime on this one. The minute West supplanted Davis as Charles handcuff they should have sent out an alert.

The wiff is bigger than that. even after all signs pointed to West, the podcast show basically ignored West until this past week finally mentioning you might pick him up. The week of the Charles Injury Bloom was actually rec picking up Knile and letting others pickup West and "blow their WW bux on him, or get him and immediately trade him to some sapp after you get him with the #1 waiver."

I listen to the podcast each week and its usually good but this was a big wiff at the time so it makes sense they never mentioned West took over as backup to Charles as they were (and still are) NOT believers in his talent. Even this week saying it was Detroit, and Pitt didn't have a good game against him the previous week discounts him. he's more talented than average and is getting tons or carries in an offense that is not splitting carries and has Alex Smith the dump off master as the QB. Reid also has a history of using single back vs committee. The signs were there that he could keep up at least 75-80% of the production Charles was producing.

I do appreciate the podcast show and think they are doing a good job. In the future they should be careful of group thinking on a guy tho and discounting him too soon. I am sure they will learn from it and improve as they always do.

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I don't think he is getting the respect he deserves talent wise. People are acting like he is some Ron Dayne type. He has some skill. He has got some moves and good speed, along with decent power and pass catching. people were going bananas (including footballguys) pimping Knile davis and to me he has more skill and a better fit. Call me Andy Reid I guess, but to my eye he's better and deserves to have beaten out Knile Davis, even though Knile did well with his opps last time Charles went down.

I wont apologize for his lack of skill like a lot of the other Sharc owners on here and disagree with Bloom/Cecil's take. I mentioned that from the start, when Charles went down ... when I first picked him up. He is passing the eye test for me and is confirming by getting results on the field, even as far back as pre-season. The signs were there. He's no Dion Lewis (but who is), sure but he has enough skill to get excited for his prospects ROS, not just as a fill in guy like Alfred Blue.

What are we expecting ROS

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