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Mike Tomlin...is it time to go?


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2 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

That is not what I said.  Please reread my posts. 

 

 

Thanks. You wrote: 

Quote

There are plenty of examples over the years of head coaches being retained under the condition that they make this change or that change.  Keeping the status quo in Pittsburgh seems like a recipe for the team continuing to underachieve. 

Are you saying Tomlin should be retained but only if he makes some changes? 

 

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1 minute ago, ShamrockPride said:

This isn't a single game type thing. This is a collection of disappointments over years now. For the past 5 years they've had a top 5 QB, a top 3 RB, and the best WR in the league, and a competent, not elite, but a competent defense. The overall talent of the team, coach, and stability of the organization is bested by maybe only the Pats. Considering all that, going out like they have, getting whooped in the playoffs by NE, early exits or straight playoff misses like tonight, etc, yes overall recent years have been badly underachieving.

It's an unwinnable argument,  which is why the fans are stuck with this garbage.  Everyone has an excuse or "resume" for good old Mike. Oof

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. You wrote: 

Are you saying Tomlin should be retained but only if he makes some changes? 

 

:wall:

For the second time, that is not what I said.  

For the 344th time, I am not advocating for firing Mike Tomlin. 

Good grief, this game of semantics is giving me a headache. :lol: 

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2 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

:wall:

For the second time, that is not what I said.  

For the 344th time, I am not advocating for firing Mike Tomlin. 

Good grief, this game of semantics is giving me a headache. :lol: 

With you on :wall: .     :) 

What exactly are you saying the Steelers should do with Tomlin?

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

With you on :wall: .     :) 

What exactly are you saying the Steelers should do with Tomlin?

Hold him accountable.  

And don't ask me by doing what.  There are dozens of way to do that that do not include firing him.  It is up to the big dogs in the Steelers organization to figure out how, not some yahoo like me on an internet message board. ;) 

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Just now, irish eyes said:

You've made my point by asking that question.  It ridiculous because tomlin has no clue what to do at this point 

Not sure what you mean. 

I do think coaches should be judged on their resume. What do you mean by "Everyone has an excuse or "resume" for good old Mike. Oof"?

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Just now, Ghost Rider said:

Hold him accountable.  

And don't ask me by doing what.  There are dozens of way to do that that do not include firing him.  It is up to the big dogs in the Steelers organization to figure out, not some yahoo like me on an internet message board. ;) 

 

That's convenient. If you think of some of the dozens of ways, I'd love to hear some specifics of what you'd like to see done. 

And you're no "yahoo on an internet message board". I think your opinion matters. 

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7 minutes ago, Steeler said:

I hope you are happier IRL than you seem to be when speaking of the Steelers here on FBG.

I'm fine IRL, I'm just stating my opinion and can't figure out why everyone is so happy with idiot Tomlin.  I will stop now, I promise lol

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Just now, irish eyes said:

I'm fine IRL, I'm just stating my opinion and canrt figure out why everyone is so happy with idiot Tomlin.  I will stop now, I promise lol

You don't have to stop. But I would love you to point to the people who think he's a "God" as you said or who are "so happy" with him. I don't think any Steeler fans are very happy right now. 

But being unhappy with the team or coach is not the same as saying fire the coach. 

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Just now, Joe Bryant said:

That's convenient. If you think of some of the dozens of ways, I'd love to hear some specifics of what you'd like to see done. 

And you're no "yahoo on an internet message board". I think your opinion matters. 

Eh, it really doesn't. It is all just internet chatter. Calling myself that was keeping it light-hearted, as I know better to think my opinion actually matters in the grand scheme of things, unless you believe that NFL higher-ups read this forum and then factor our opinions into decisions they make. 

As for the dozens of ways, he can be forced to change certain assistant coaches. He can be told he needs to be more hands-on with the offense so the run-pass ratio is more balanced, thus resulting in less turnovers by Roethlisberger. He can be told that the locker room needs to be more buttoned up (see: Antonio Brown doing the FB live thing two years back; that would never happen in the Patriots locker room).  He can be told that players need to keep their mouths shut about organizational matters or face consequences (see: players running their mouths about the L Bell situation early in the season).  He can be told that he needs an advisor in the booth (or a new one if he has one already) that makes the call on when to challenge a play since Tomlin is clearly terrible at it. etc. 

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Just now, Ghost Rider said:

Eh, it really doesn't. It is all just internet chatter. Calling myself that was keeping it light-hearted, as I know better to think my opinion actually matters in the grand scheme of things, unless you believe that NFL higher-ups read this forum and then factor our opinions into decisions they make. 

As for the dozens of ways, he can be forced to change certain assistant coaches. He can be told he needs to be more hands-on with the offense so the run-pass ratio is more balanced, thus resulting in less turnovers by Roethlisberger. He can be told that the locker room needs to be more buttoned up (see: Antonio Brown doing the FB live thing two years back; that would never happen in the Patriots locker room).  He can be told that players need to keep their mouths shut about organizational matters or face consequences (see: players running their mouths about the L Bell situation early in the season).  He can be told that he needs an advisor in the booth (or a new one if he has one already) that makes the call on when to challenge a play since Tomlin is clearly terrible at it. etc. 

Cool. That's the kind of thing I was asking about. 

And no, our opinion doesn't matter in the sense of actually making a change in Pittsburgh. But I don't care about that. I care about our community and I care what you think. Even if I may disagree. Thanks for sharing. 

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When should they have fired this guy?

1992 11 - 5 :- lost to Buffalo in the playoffs.

1993    9 - 7 :- lost at Kansas City in the playoffs.

1994 12 - 4 :- lost to San Diego in the AFC Championship game.

1995 11 - 5 :- lost to Dallas in Super Bowl XXX,

1996 10 - 6 :- lost at New England in the playoffs.

1997 11 - 5 :- lost to Denver in the AFC Championship game.

1998    7 - 9

1999    6 - 10

2000    9 - 7

2001  10 - 5 :- lost to New England in the AFC Championship game.

2002  10 - 5 - 1 :- lost at Tennessee in the AFC Championship game in overtime.

2003    6 - 10

2004  15 - 1 :- lost to New England in the AFC Championship game.

2005  11 - 5 :- won Super Bowl XL.

2006 8 - 8

 

Just saying Cowher had 3 no playoff seasons but should he have been fired then?

Edited by belljr
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24 minutes ago, belljr said:

When should they have fired this guy?

1992 11 - 5 :- lost to Buffalo in the playoffs.

1993    9 - 7 :- lost at Kansas City in the playoffs.

1994 12 - 4 :- lost to San Diego in the AFC Championship game.

1995 11 - 5 :- lost to Dallas in Super Bowl XXX,

1996 10 - 6 :- lost at New England in the playoffs.

1997 11 - 5 :- lost to Denver in the AFC Championship game.

1998    7 - 9

1999    6 - 10

2000    9 - 7

2001  10 - 5 :- lost to New England in the AFC Championship game.

2002  10 - 5 - 1 :- lost at Tennessee in the AFC Championship game in overtime.

2003    6 - 10

2004  15 - 1 :- lost to New England in the AFC Championship game.

2005  11 - 5 :- won Super Bowl XL.

2006 8 - 8

 

Just saying Cowher had 3 no playoff seasons but should he have been fired then?

Yeah, small difference in the qbs huh? Cowher won with Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox and Neil O’Donnell. As soon as he got Roethlisberger they started winning Super Bowls. 

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5 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

Yeah, small difference in the qbs huh? Cowher won with Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox and Neil O’Donnell. As soon as he got Roethlisberger they started winning Super Bowls. 

Sure but if  we want to play that game a big difference in quality of D's most of those Cowher teams had as well.

 

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1 hour ago, belljr said:

When should they have fired this guy?

1992 11 - 5 :- lost to Buffalo in the playoffs.

1993    9 - 7 :- lost at Kansas City in the playoffs.

1994 12 - 4 :- lost to San Diego in the AFC Championship game.

1995 11 - 5 :- lost to Dallas in Super Bowl XXX,

1996 10 - 6 :- lost at New England in the playoffs.

1997 11 - 5 :- lost to Denver in the AFC Championship game.

1998    7 - 9

1999    6 - 10

2000    9 - 7

2001  10 - 5 :- lost to New England in the AFC Championship game.

2002  10 - 5 - 1 :- lost at Tennessee in the AFC Championship game in overtime.

2003    6 - 10

2004  15 - 1 :- lost to New England in the AFC Championship game.

2005  11 - 5 :- won Super Bowl XL.

2006 8 - 8

 

Just saying Cowher had 3 no playoff seasons but should he have been fired then?

Cowher never had a good qb, these two coaches aren't comparable one has had a elite qb for over a decade and most of that time elite level talent and Cowher never had near the talent level, not even close.

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12 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Cool. We can disagree there.

I think "What are the chances we get a better replacement?" and "Who is that replacement?" are key questions to consider. 

At the very least the Steelers front office and ownership should sit Tomlin down and conduct a comprehensive review of his performance and then enact an improvement plan to address that identifies shortcomings in his performance. The comprehensive review will look at all aspects of the team performance that falls under the accountability and responsibility of the head coach.

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Just now, pghrob said:

At the very least the Steelers front office and ownership should sit Tomlin down and conduct a comprehensive review of his performance and then enact an improvement plan to address that identifies shortcomings in his performance. The comprehensive review will look at all aspects of the team performance that falls under the accountability and responsibility of the head coach.

Of course. I'd expect every team to do that with every head coach. And likely coordinators. 

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Of course. I'd expect every team to do that with every head coach. And likely coordinators. 

Such a review just needs to be done authentically and honestly. They need to embrace the brutal facts of their reality and then make adjustments accordingly.

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Of course. Do you trust ownership to be authentic and honest?

I would expect them to be such. Prudence dictates as much. If they can look at all aspects in an objective manner then that paves the way for them to get to the root causes of their failures so that they can begin to make the necessary changes.

Mot only do they need to be authentic looking at the brutal facts of their reality they need to have the skill set along the entire improvement process.

That all has to  play out against what their long-term goals and objectives are. If they want to be competitive year in and year out but not win a Superbowl then that would be different than if they have an expectation of competing for a championship every year.  So what they seek to accomplish and what they expect their team to be dictates the path that they'll need to take.

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13 minutes ago, pghrob said:

I would expect them to be such. Prudence dictates as much. If they can look at all aspects in an objective manner then that paves the way for them to get to the root causes of their failures so that they can begin to make the necessary changes.

Mot only do they need to be authentic looking at the brutal facts of their reality they need to have the skill set along the entire improvement process.

That all has to  play out against what their long-term goals and objectives are. If they want to be competitive year in and year out but not win a Superbowl then that would be different than if they have an expectation of competing for a championship every year.  So what they seek to accomplish and what they expect their team to be dictates the path that they'll need to take.

 The Steelers brass needs to re-examine their Charter and decide whether or not they are existing as an organization in fulfillment of what they value and want to accomplish in consideration of the expected contributions of their head coach. That in and of itself may require them to reconsider what they value and aim for in terms of whether or not they need to reset what their aim is or reset at the head coaching level if their aim remains the same.

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Just now, pghrob said:

 if as Tomlin says the standard is the standard, then they'll get the opportunity to reexamine just what the standard is and how they comply with meeting it.

 

The Steeler way is a pragmatic approach and I have no doubt that's how they'll go about addressing their performance under Tomlin and his head coaching.

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Not thinking like other franchises is a blessing and, in this case, a curse. They view stability as the pinnacle of their success and do not feel or acknowledge the pressure other franchises would feel if their HOF QB was teetering on the edge of his career (see: GB, LAC and kind of NYG when they fired Coughlin). The overall whole of the organization is considered more important (a good thing) but they don’t want to acknowledge just how hard it is to get a QB like Ben. Maybe because they’ve seen winning with Neil O’Donnell and Tommy Maddox, I don’t know but it’s disconcerting that they don’t see this as a window and that it is rapidly closing as Cleveland will no longer be a bye week, Baltimore is now a complex running team that can beat you with a crazy offense and Cincy still has a talented roster that could actually have a real coach next season. Depressing really. I do not think Tomlin can do well with a stop gap like Dobbs or Rudolph and that’s when the rubber will meet the road most likely.

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23 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

As I asked ghostrider, what specific adjustments would you see making? 

In other words, if you were the owner, what would you do?

If I were the owner and I want to win Super Bowls I would put Tomlin on the hot seat.  I would simultaneously go out and begin evaluating who the possible replacements are and I would go as far as to tell Tomlin that I'm looking at his possible successor.

Tomlin is a smart man and nobody's fool. He knows the environment and has some decisions to make as well. From this exercise that is the critical review the path forward  will emerge.

Based on all of this looking at what I think is prudent and looking at how I know the Steelers to operate, I see no way that they let Tomlin go after this season. But it's clear things can't continue to be managed as it has been. Time to disrupt the status quo.

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They need to determine how Mike Tomlin's performance and overall contributions  as a head coach impacts their profitability and growth set against what they believe the path forward is to profitability and growth.

In a nutshell they need to evaluate Mike Tomlin's value against their annual operating plan and their strategic plan and overall organizational mission and adjust as necessary relative to making changes with him or making changes without him. 

And there's a process to doing that and again I have no doubt that the Steelers ownership will do just that. Speculating as to how it all plays out is what keeps message boards like this an interesting place to visit and interact.

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28 minutes ago, pghrob said:

Based on all of this looking at what I think is prudent and looking at how I know the Steelers to operate, I see no way that they let Tomlin go after this season. But it's clear things can't continue to be managed as it has been. Time to disrupt the status quo.

 

What's your opinion of the idea that if things were managed properly, the team would win a Super Bowl every year?

What's your opinion of the idea that sometimes things are managed the exact same way and results may vary? 

In other words, can we assume Tomlin managed things radically differently in the great years than he did in the not great years?

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1 hour ago, pghrob said:

Such a review just needs to be done authentically and honestly. They need to embrace the brutal facts of their reality and then make adjustments accordingly.

You keep repeating the "brutal facts of their reality". 

Can you elaborate on the negatives?

On the positives?

 

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This is not fans grasping for straws. Aditi Kinkhabwala reporting this morning that vets seemed very critical of this season and questioned the discipline in the locker room: https://twitter.com/akinkhabwala/status/1079748957738283015?s=21

Every season is different, because every team is different. Maybe Tomlin has been consistent and in that consitency of not being a disciplinarian has now caught up to him as Superstars are just allowed to place themselves ahead of the team and winning. A laid back approach can work with one group and not another. That is management 101.

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32 minutes ago, Iceman03 said:

The overall whole of the organization is considered more important (a good thing) but they don’t want to acknowledge just how hard it is to get a QB like Ben. Maybe because they’ve seen winning with Neil O’Donnell and Tommy Maddox, I don’t know but it’s disconcerting that they don’t see this as a window and that it is rapidly closing 

 

Thanks.

1. Is this just a feeling that you think they don't acknowledge the difficulty of finding a QB or have they said or acted in a way that makes you think this?

2. If you were running the organization, how would you address this? How early next year would you draft a QB?

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2 minutes ago, Iceman03 said:

This is not fans grasping for straws. Aditi Kinkhabwala reporting this morning that vets seemed very critical of this season and questioned the discipline in the locker room: https://twitter.com/akinkhabwala/status/1079748957738283015?s=21

Every season is different, because every team is different. Maybe Tomlin has been consistent and in that consitency of not being a disciplinarian has now caught up to him as Superstars are just allowed to place themselves ahead of the team and winning. A laid back approach can work with one group and not another. That is management 101.

Thanks. Kinkhabwala is a source I trust and that's interesting from the veterans. Very much looking forward to seeing as she says what comes out in the next few weeks. 

I found the Pouncey assessment of how talented they are interesting too. I like him and obviously, he's a zillion times closer to the situation than I am. I found it interesting he thinks you can remove Bell and Shazier and call the team more talented. 

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Just now, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks.

1. Is this just a feeling that you think they don't acknowledge the difficulty of finding a QB or have they said or acted in a way that makes you think this?

2. If you were running the organization, how would you address this? How early next year would you draft a QB?

I think they know how difficult it is to find a QB. They’ve drafted one in the last two drafts. I don’t see anything from those guys that says they’re a long term answer. Rudolph seems overly mechanical and Dobbs looks just the opposite (from my couch scout eyes). I think they just view the big picture as “teams” winning and not QB’s being the end all be all to that final result.

In the dream scenario, I was running the Steelers I think the next few years should offer QB’s with high level potential. Haskins and Herbert seem like fantastic pro level prospects. Tua looks amazingly efficient and Trevor Lawrence looks like he has every tool available at his disposal. Jake Frohm was also considered an absolute stud coming out of high school. I think it will be a tough decision about the timing of getting a QB. In this hypothetical scenario of me running things I would probably not make a move early until Ben was retired or could clearly seen to be done (like Eli now). I would probably attempt to continue to stockpile talent until it was time to draft a QB. It would probably take a move up for any of the QB’s I mentioned and that’s not the front offices MO. Time will tell I suppose.

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. Kinkhabwala is a source I trust and that's interesting from the veterans. Very much looking forward to seeing as she says what comes out in the next few weeks. 

I found the Pouncey assessment of how talented they are interesting too. I like him and obviously, he's a zillion times closer to the situation than I am. I found it interesting he thinks you can remove Bell and Shazier and call the team more talented. 

Shazier definitely hurt more than most are giving credit. I would keep in mind he plays offense and it is probably mostly coming from that standpoint. 

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12 hours ago, irish eyes said:

I'm fine IRL, I'm just stating my opinion and can't figure out why everyone is so happy with idiot Tomlin.  I will stop now, I promise lol

Outside looking in.. Tomlin seems to make a lot of mistakes (challenge flags, play calling, etc.).  Steelers lose games that you expect them to win and preparation (coaching) does come into question.  As an organization, they only change coaches generationally so I'd be surprised if they moved on... Key thing for them might be their assessment of the rumored loss of the locker room.

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For the undisciplined locker room stuff, what specifically do you think they're talking about?

Players voicing displeasure over Bell saying he'd be there and then not showing?

Antonio Brown social media?

Is there a late to meeting type thing happening? 

Does the team seem to like Tomlin?

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17 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

What's your opinion of the idea that if things were managed properly, the team would win a Super Bowl every year?

Response:  one team can't win the SB every year.  "Managed properly" is subjective. Performance output in football is a product of the system operating tactfully against an opponent trying to defeat you.  The outcome of whether a team wins or loses any one game or the SB is dependent upon countless variables more so than just management from the head coach.  But in assessing HC management performance you could look at key performance indicators and trends. You can look at probability statements pitted against actual performance and form conclusions.

What's your opinion of the idea that sometimes things are managed the exact same way and results may vary?  

Response: The process of running a football team and playing the football game is a dynamic exchange subject to changing variables. It requires the ability to be both strategic and tactical and decision-making and execution. There for managing the same way in this particular environment does not bode well in terms of overcoming obstacles on the path to achieving the goal of sustained winning and being a SB champ when relevant indicators indicate perhaps you should.

In other words, can we assume Tomlin managed things radically differently in the great years than he did in the not great years?

Response: No. The outputs of coaching performance are subject to way too much variability in football.  The best the Steelers could hope to do is create and sustain a stable underlying system of how to operate a winning organization (winning in terms of how they define longterm success) and make incremental improvements where they assess weakness in the execution of their performance, i.e. identifying the leverage points in the overall operating scheme.  That can be in actual gameplay, game management, that could be in talent evaluation, that can be in drafting, that can be personnel management, that can be media relations, etc. All of these are head coaching management and leadership skill variables.

 

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

You keep repeating the "brutal facts of their reality". 

Can you elaborate on the negatives?

Response: 1 ) Year over year losses against by all accounts what are inferior appearing teams in which Tomlin's team appears based on probability and odds thinking to be the favorite to win.  These losses are during regular season and in playoffs since SB win vs the Cardinals ten + years ago.

The subset of issues to those unanticipated losses:

a)  Failure to overcome team weakness such as suspect secondary and overall defense that has tendencies to give up big plays at mist inopportune moment. 

b) Pattern of poor in game decision making as a head coach (clock mgmt, play calling, substitutions, challenges) 

c) Failure to make in game adjustments in terms of play and coverage schemes

d) undisciplined play/too many penalties 

e) in game communication failure 

f) As a supposed player's coach, appears at times soft on discipline. To be fair however, he has benched players for various infractions, though at times perhaps inconsistently displaying what might appear to be a double standard

On the positives?

1) Overall Tomlin has avery good regular season winning percentage but with glaring losses against inferior teams as noted above.

2) As a supposed player's coach Tomlin appears very good at people management with respect to the off the field distractions with which modern players often find themselves.

Bottom line: Steeler fans maintain high expectations relative to playoff contention and winning Super Bowls. For many of the fans that's how they measure success. When the team fails in that regard, the fanbase gets restless and you get the resultant calls for a head coaching replacement  because for many of them the buck stops with the head coach.

 

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