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****OFFICIAL 2021 IN- SEASON DYNASTY TRADES****


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7 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

In Gase's last season with Denver, once CJA took over, he had 30 receptions for 290 yards and 2 TDs in his last 8 games. You might think he's a 2 down back, but if he signs with Miami, all that matters is what Adam Gase and his OC think. 

Also, you're missing the point if you think targets per game are what makes a passing down back a passing down back. His routes, hands, and pass blocking all factor in when he moves to a new team. Doesn't matter how many targets the previous team gave him.

Maybe we're arguing semantics.  He's been used as a 2 down back.  If you think he's likely to be more than that if he ends up in Miami, I'm fine with that.  I disagree, but that's cool.

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1 minute ago, Concept Coop said:

Maybe we're arguing semantics.  He's been used as a 2 down back.  If you think he's likely to be more than that if he ends up in Miami, I'm fine with that.  I disagree, but that's cool.

Given Gase's use of CJA in the past (and CJA's performance in that facet of the game), I'm not sure how you are so confident. I mean, it's understandable if you don't think CJA will even make it to Miami (he is under contract after all) but in this hypothetical, I can't fathom having your confidence. 

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5 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Given Gase's use of CJA in the past (and CJA's performance in that facet of the game), I'm not sure how you are so confident. I mean, it's understandable if you don't think CJA will even make it to Miami (he is under contract after all) but in this hypothetical, I can't fathom having your confidence. 

That's easy.  I like Drake a lot more than you do. and like Anderson a lot less than you do.

Drake is getting his touches, so worst case, it's a split.  It only makes sense to have the bigger Anderson do more of the heavy lifting, and get Drake in space on passing downs.  

 

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Just now, Concept Coop said:

That's easy.  I like Drake a lot more than you do. and like Anderson a lot less than you do.

Drake is getting his touches, so worst case, it's a split.  It only makes sense to have the bigger Anderson do more of the heavy lifting, and get Drake in space on passing downs.  

As I mentioned, I'm not trying to sell anyone on CJA. I'm not saying go out and buy low or anything. I don't even think I've given my :2cents: on him as a player in here. Been trying to focus on just giving some facts/statistics about CJA to support why I want no part of Drake.

Like FreeBagel said, it seems Gase does not see Drake as the answer at RB, however dynasty owners are valuing him as a featured back. Not a high end one, but a starter nonetheless. That seems extremely risky. Even if dynasty owners are right about his talent, what matters for his value is what the HC thinks.

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45 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

As I mentioned, I'm not trying to sell anyone on CJA. I'm not saying go out and buy low or anything. I don't even think I've given my :2cents: on him as a player in here. Been trying to focus on just giving some facts/statistics about CJA to support why I want no part of Drake.

Like FreeBagel said, it seems Gase does not see Drake as the answer at RB, however dynasty owners are valuing him as a featured back. Not a high end one, but a starter nonetheless. That seems extremely risky. Even if dynasty owners are right about his talent, what matters for his value is what the HC thinks.

Who is valuing Drake as a future back right now?  What 23 YO feature back can you get for less than the 1.07?  That's a bit of a strawman. 

FB makes a fantastic point.  It's the very reason we Drake supporters aren't paying the 1.04 for him today.  I said he's worth more than the 1.04 "IF" Miami doesn't bring in any serious competition for him.  In that scenario, Gase clearly would be viewing Drake as the answer.

 

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1 hour ago, Concept Coop said:

Who is valuing Drake as a future back right now?  What 23 YO feature back can you get for less than the 1.07?  That's a bit of a strawman. 

FB makes a fantastic point.  It's the very reason we Drake supporters aren't paying the 1.04 for him today.  I said he's worth more than the 1.04 "IF" Miami doesn't bring in any serious competition for him.  In that scenario, Gase clearly would be viewing Drake as the answer.

People who make dynasty rankings.

I was just going by his dynasty ranking. I frequently see him in the late teens. That's usually low-end featured back range, so whether people see him as one, he's carrying the value/ranking of one. If that's an inaccurate perception, let me know. But it was not intended as a strawman. 

Just curious, where do you approximately rank him? I know you posted rankings recently but I couldn't find them on the first 5 pages...

P.S. Drake is 24.

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2 hours ago, FreeBaGeL said:

At some point someone is going to have to explain to me why Alshon has somehow seen a value increase after a terrible season on a great offense that will likely regress.  He just put up a worse season than Dez Bryant and is only one year younger and the consensus value of the two could not be further apart.

I guess he improved in the playoffs but that was with Foles as QB and no Ertz on the field, both things that will not be the case next year.  And even with those while he was "improved" he still wasn't great.

More than five catches only twice in 19 games.  Over 100 yards zero times in 19 games.  WR25 in PPG.  All on an offense that was firing on all cylinders barring a short stretch after the QB change?

 

Adding to some of your numbers I had looked this stuff over a few weeks ago when I traded him and he is as TD dependent as it gets. I believe his high point game without a TD was 11.1, and yes that is PPR, and he averaged about 7 fantasy points a game when not scoring a TD. Obviously all players regress  without scoring a TD but ignoring week 17 he gave you 7 weeks of WR4 type production. 7 out of 15 possible weeks he was someone you likely used or thought to put in your lineup  he likely hurt you having him in your lineup. That's to much without enough upside the weeks he did well because even the weeks he actually scored a TD he never threw down a monster 30+game, only broke 25+ once and 20+ twice with a solid but unspectacular 17 fantasy points a game when he acutally found a TD. That's not good enough to offset the negatives for what people are paying WR2 type price.

And when you look at in context of he was playing most of the season with the MVP favorite at QB it's hard for me see why everyone thinks he is going to improve a ton. I'd also say beyond stats and just to my eye test he just looks slower.

Now I'd guess second year in the system might help but I tend to think a lot of has to do with him scoring TD's in playoffs and a team in Philly which has made a lot of good decisions signing him to a long term contract. If they believe in him I think that is adding to confidence in FF community for him but I don't think he'll improve much at all myself and if he does not I think at best he sees two years of that contract.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

People who make dynasty rankings.

I was just going by his dynasty ranking. I frequently see him in the late teens. That's usually low-end featured back range, so whether people see him as one, he's carrying the value/ranking of one. If that's an inaccurate perception, let me know. But it was not intended as a strawman. 

Just curious, where do you approximately rank him? I know you posted rankings recently but I couldn't find them on the first 5 pages...

P.S. Drake is 24.

I don't know anyone who tiers their rankings like that, so maybe I'm misunderstanding you.  I do think Drake could be a featured back.  I don't think it's a given that he will be.  But again, I've yet to see a deal for Drake treating him as an established, newly 24 YO featured back.  You don't get those for the 1.07. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/764533-concept-coops-dynasty-rankings/

 

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26 minutes ago, Aunt Jemima said:

I think he has value because of his current opportunity in Indy but he is by no means a special player, more of a JAG and very easily replaceable

I agree that he's not special, but I don't think he's a JAG either.  He's a solid pass catching TE in a good situation.  I haven't played in a 1.5 league in a while, so somebody else would have to look this up.  But I'm guessing he was a quality flex option last season, in addition to being a top 5 TE.  

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50 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

People who make dynasty rankings.

I was just going by his dynasty ranking. I frequently see him in the late teens. That's usually low-end featured back range, so whether people see him as one, he's carrying the value/ranking of one. If that's an inaccurate perception, let me know. But it was not intended as a strawman. 

Just curious, where do you approximately rank him? I know you posted rankings recently but I couldn't find them on the first 5 pages...

P.S. Drake is 24.

I'm not a big Drake fan, but where else are you going to rank him at this point? Who is behind him? Likely guys that can be replaced as well post-free agency/post-draft or guys that are either way past their prime or never likely to have a prime.

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4 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

I don't know anyone who tiers their rankings like that, so maybe I'm misunderstanding you.  I do think Drake could be a featured back.  I don't think it's a given that he will be.  But again, I've yet to see a deal for Drake treating him as an established, newly 24 YO featured back.  You don't get those for the 1.07. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/764533-concept-coops-dynasty-rankings/

I'm not talking about some strange tiers. Nor am I talking about established 24 yo featured backs. I simply said people are valuing him at a featured back level, meaning you could trade him straight up for a featured back. Like from your rankings, it wouldn't take much to turn a share of Drake into Carlos Hyde. I would take that in a heartbeat. 

9 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I'm not a big Drake fan, but where else are you going to rank him at this point? Who is behind him? Likely guys that can be replaced as well post-free agency/post-draft or guys that are either way past their prime or never likely to have a prime.

This is a fair point, and I guess if I was forced to put him in a list format, I'd get skewered for ranking him too low. Personally I'd rather save my auction dollars/trade bait/draft picks while taking a shot on a much cheaper player with a similar situation/upside. For instance, gun to my head, I'd rather have Jamaal Williams straight up (likely unpopular opinion), but I could get him at a fraction of the price. I might even be able to handcuff him with Aaron Jones for less than Drake would cost via startup or trade. Jamaal, like Drake, has a tenuous grip on the starting job. Another example: could probably get Alex Collins + Dixon for the price of Drake. And like Jamaal, I don't see Collins alone as a significant downgrade from Drake. Both Collins and Jamaal held the job down longer than Drake did.

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Just now, FF Ninja said:

I'm not talking about some strange tiers. Nor am I talking about established 24 yo featured backs. I simply said people are valuing him at a featured back level, meaning you could trade him straight up for a featured back. Like from your rankings, it wouldn't take much to turn a share of Drake into Carlos Hyde. I would take that in a heartbeat. 

I don't know what "featured back level" means.  This is a straw man, intentional or not.  It has nothing to do with the 1.07 for Kenyan Drake and the 1.12.  We've established that I like Drake a lot more than you, and I'm not sure there's anything else of substance here (both ways). 

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18 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

I don't know what "featured back level" means.  This is a straw man, intentional or not.  It has nothing to do with the 1.07 for Kenyan Drake and the 1.12.  We've established that I like Drake a lot more than you, and I'm not sure there's anything else of substance here (both ways). 

A price level (and/or consensus ranking) frequently associated with featured backs.

I thought the discussion had kind of moved on from that particular trade to general discussion of Drake's (possibly) inflated value. I had already said that the trade seemed light given Drake's ranking, but if the owner, like me, views him as a lesser committee back then I would strongly consider making the trade if I had shopped him around and that was the best I could get... because his value is a ticking time bomb, IMO. If/when a top 5 rookie is drafted or a player like CJA is signed, Drake's value will tank below the level of that trade.

 

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Just now, FF Ninja said:

A price level (and/or consensus ranking) frequently associated with featured backs.

Again, I don't rank players this way and I've never heard of anyone else doing it either.  There is no such tier or level in my rankings.  

 

5 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

...if the owner, like me, views him as a lesser committee back ...

This is all it comes down to.  You turn on the tape and see a lesser committee back.  I turn on the tape and see something potentially special.  We'll see what happens.  

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Just now, Concept Coop said:

Again, I don't rank players this way and I've never heard of anyone else doing it either.  There is no such tier or level in my rankings.  

You're killin me, smalls. :wall:

But I'm stubborn so I'm going to keep trying to explain this concept... I'll try a different angle: If you look at just about every single dynasty ranking, the top ~20 RBs are featured backs with very few exceptions*. Therefore, anyone ranked/drafted in the top 20 RBs holds the trade/startup value of a featured back regardless of their actual role or ability.

*The only exceptions are high volume receiving backs in a PPR format or young, popular backs who have the hope of becoming a featured back soon.

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2 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

You're killin me, smalls. :wall:

But I'm stubborn so I'm going to keep trying to explain this concept... I'll try a different angle: If you look at just about every single dynasty ranking, the top ~20 RBs are featured backs with very few exceptions*. Therefore, anyone ranked/drafted in the top 20 RBs holds the trade/startup value of a featured back regardless of their actual role or ability.

*The only exceptions are high volume receiving backs in a PPR format or young, popular backs who have the hope of becoming a featured back soon.

Alvin Kamara*
Christian McCaffrey*
Derrick Henry*
Kenyan Drake*
Tevin Coleman*

We good?

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Just now, Concept Coop said:

Alvin Kamara*
Christian McCaffrey*
Derrick Henry*
Kenyan Drake*
Tevin Coleman*

We good?

Yes, you spotted the exceptions. That wasn't the point. What I was really wondering was if you now get what I'm saying when I say a guy carries a featured back value.

And FWIW, I never thought Coleman belonged in the top 20. Puzzles me that people pay so much for him. Like Drake, if I took over a team with him, he'd be gone to the high bidder as soon as I had thoroughly shopped him. So the exceptions include Kamara and CMC, 100+ target guys, and Henry - 2nd round pick and future featured back. And then Drake. One of these things is not like the other.

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Just now, FF Ninja said:

Yes, you spotted the exceptions. That wasn't the point. What I was really wondering was if you now get what I'm saying when I say a guy carries a featured back value.

And FWIW, I never thought Coleman belonged in the top 20. Puzzles me that people pay so much for him. Like Drake, if I took over a team with him, he'd be gone to the high bidder as soon as I had thoroughly shopped him. So the exceptions include Kamara and CMC, 100+ target guys, and Henry - 2nd round pick and future featured back. And then Drake. One of these things is not like the other.

I think Drake has a shot to be a lead back, and think he's likely to put up RB1 numbers in that role.  You don't.  Let's move on. 

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I play in FFPC rules almost exclusively. Not necessarily a preference it's just how it is.

I'd take the 2.4 over Doyle because It's likely I already have the TE situation figured out or close to it. I like but don't love Doyle. Gimme the dart throw at 2.4.

I could see Doyle if I was loaded everywhere and hated the board at 2.4.

 

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6 minutes ago, barackdhouse said:

I play in FFPC rules almost exclusively. Not necessarily a preference it's just how it is.

I'd take the 2.4 over Doyle because It's likely I already have the TE situation figured out or close to it. I like but don't love Doyle. Gimme the dart throw at 2.4.

I could see Doyle if I was loaded everywhere and hated the board at 2.4.

 

Would that change if Luck was 100%?

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3 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

Would that change if Luck was 100%?

It might. Has he ever been fully healthy with Doyle on the field?

Yeah I mean I definitely wouldn't fault anyone for taking Doyle. It's perfectly fair. One thing I'd say is that I think people over value the TE premium thing. It's a factor but cutting down to 16 on active roster for FFPC offseason is tough. And in my experience it's really tough to move TEs.  If I could get a 2.4 to clear roster space I move a 2nd or 3rd TE (from my roster) all day.

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16 minutes ago, barackdhouse said:

I play in FFPC rules almost exclusively. Not necessarily a preference it's just how it is.

I'd take the 2.4 over Doyle because It's likely I already have the TE situation figured out or close to it. I like but don't love Doyle. Gimme the dart throw at 2.4.

I could see Doyle if I was loaded everywhere and hated the board at 2.4.

 

I play in FFPC and I could not disagree more.

Firstly, I DON'T have my TE situation figured out or close to it in my FFPC league :P

But more importantly, Doyle is a strong flex option in TE premium leagues.  He averaged 14.2ppg last year which was the same amount as WR12 (Diggs/AJG) or RB13 (Freeman/McCaffrey).

Starting him as a flex is like starting a borderline WR1 or RB1 as a flex option.  It's like starting AJ Green or Devonta Freeman in the flex, but being able to buy them for the 2.4.

Sign me up.

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5 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

I play in FFPC and I could not disagree more.

Firstly, I DON'T have my TE situation figured out or close to it in my FFPC league :P

But more importantly, Doyle is a strong flex option in TE premium leagues.  He averaged 14.2ppg last year which was the same amount as WR12 (Diggs/AJG) or RB13 (Freeman/McCaffrey).

Starting him as a flex is like starting a borderline WR1 or RB1 as a flex option.  It's like starting AJ Green or Devonta Freeman in the flex, but being able to buy them for the 2.4.

Sign me up.

I think that's fair. I've got Ertz/Kelce in one league. Gronk/ASJ/Kittle (taxi)/Njoku(taxi) in another. I could see the argument against ASJ in the 2nd one but I like ASJ long term better. I don't have flex guys in those two that I would drop to make room for Doyle. 

In a third I have Gronk and Kittle. And I have room on my roster in thia one so I actually would probably consider Doyle there. But I also have visions of having snagged Hunt at 2.03 last year. Also snagged Marshawn Lynch at 2.10 that I was able to flip for what turned out to be the 1.05 and 3.05. FA pool moves the needle a little bit in the 2nd round when teams cut to 16 (including K and D). Not a lot but it's a factor.

Fourth team I have Jimmy Graham and OJ Howard. Not exactly figured out but I also don't have flex guys I would cut. 

I certainly don't argue the value in using a 2nd or 3rd TE in a flex spot in FFPC. It has saved me more than a few times. I just don't like rostering too many.

 

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16 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

I play in FFPC and I could not disagree more.

Firstly, I DON'T have my TE situation figured out or close to it in my FFPC league :P

But more importantly, Doyle is a strong flex option in TE premium leagues.  He averaged 14.2ppg last year which was the same amount as WR12 (Diggs/AJG) or RB13 (Freeman/McCaffrey).

Starting him as a flex is like starting a borderline WR1 or RB1 as a flex option.  It's like starting AJ Green or Devonta Freeman in the flex, but being able to buy them for the 2.4.

Sign me up.

Also, I can't start anyone in the flex in the off-season. The needle might very well move for me if this deal was offered inseason as opposed to now.

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34 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

Sign me up.

Ditto.  Seems like the only argument against grabbing Doyle is if you already have 2-3 better TEs, which you know, eh, still doesn't make much sense.  Value is value.  And how hard is it to move a TE in a FFPC 1.5 PPR dyno league?  They're gold, Jerry, GOLD!

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44 minutes ago, barackdhouse said:

I think that's fair. I've got Ertz/Kelce in one league. Gronk/ASJ/Kittle (taxi)/Njoku(taxi) in another. I could see the argument against ASJ in the 2nd one but I like ASJ long term better. I don't have flex guys in those two that I would drop to make room for Doyle. 

In a third I have Gronk and Kittle. And I have room on my roster in thia one so I actually would probably consider Doyle there. But I also have visions of having snagged Hunt at 2.03 last year. Also snagged Marshawn Lynch at 2.10 that I was able to flip for what turned out to be the 1.05 and 3.05. FA pool moves the needle a little bit in the 2nd round when teams cut to 16 (including K and D). Not a lot but it's a factor.

Fourth team I have Jimmy Graham and OJ Howard. Not exactly figured out but I also don't have flex guys I would cut. 

I certainly don't argue the value in using a 2nd or 3rd TE in a flex spot in FFPC. It has saved me more than a few times. I just don't like rostering too many.

 

Well you're obviously very blessed with your TE holdings in those leagues, which is mostly anecdotal.

Regardless, I don't really think that changes things that much.  It seems like you're thinking "I don't like rostering that many TEs or starting that many TEs in my flex", but what you're really saying is "I don't like rostering that many guys that score elite fantasy points, and I'd rather start a RB or WR in my flex that is going to score way fewer points".

Above you made the point that you think people overrate the value of TEs in TE premium.  I actually think the opposite.  Take your Marshawn Lynch example, for instance.  While it's nice that you were able to steal an early pick from an inexperienced owner for him, outside of that insanely lucky instance a guy like Lynch doesn't really even belong in the same conversation as a guy like Doyle in FFPC with TE premium and only 2 required RBs alongside 2 flex.  Doyle scored 3.5ppg more than Lynch in that format, yet I bet most FFPC owners without looking at it think Lynch was a better flex option or, at the very least, were wrestling with who to start in the flex between them.  But Doyle outscored Lynch by as much as Keenan Allen outscored Tate.  That's like someone saying "errrr I have this Keenan Allen guy but I probably shouldn't be starting him, gotta go Tate here, right?".

 

42 minutes ago, barackdhouse said:

Also, I can't start anyone in the flex in the off-season. The needle might very well move for me if this deal was offered inseason as opposed to now.

OK....but that's true of anyone.  Surely you're not uninterested in guys like Freeman or Diggs or Green or McCaffrey because they don't score points in the offseason?

I understand the value of roster spots prior to cut downs in FFPC leagues.  But surely a guy who is likely one of the top 2-3 flex scorers in the entire league is beyond the pale of that.

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I'm in 6 FFPC leagues and if I was offered Doyle for 2.4 I know I'd turn it down in 5 of them with ease but would consider it in a league where I have Gronk and not comfortable with what I have after him should he retire. If I knew he was coming back I'd say no in all 6 leagues.

2017 Doyle was simply like the 2016 Rudolph. He just had his career year. I sold Rudolph for 2.4 last year in an FFPC league and I'd sale Doyle in most as well.

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For most of or large portions of last year, most of my flex spots were used by starters like Larry Fitzgerald, Juju, Hunt*, Funchess, Marvin Jones, Woods.  But I also started a number of TEs in the flex, like Ertz, ASJ, Kittle a couple times.  I certainly would have preferred Doyle a number of different weeks.  Not over Ertz of course.  Asterisk for Hunt because I drafted him everywhere but only one team where I could use him in the flex.

I am looking at my rosters and I have them cut down to 16 right now on paper.  And I'm not seeing who I would cut, theoretically, to make room for Doyle, in 3 out of the 4 I listed above.  Plus I don't necessarily think he will repeat the kind of success he had last year.  Many other owners in these leagues share the view that TEs don't repeat so well sometimes, and TEs are in fact difficult to move there.  Every league is different of course.

Even in a vacuum, even if I agreed on the value of 2.4 vs Doyle (which I basically already said I think it's fair), I absolutely would argue that the team receiving the player at this time of year must also think about the valuation in terms of who they would either be cutting or forced to try and trade. In my case (not a vacuum), there are a few names that are probably debatable, but who I would prefer based on upside.  Largely because (not a vacuum again) my flex starters are stronger already. 

Just my thoughts. Like I said I certainly don't fault anyone for taking the Doyle side.

 

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5 minutes ago, barackdhouse said:

For most of or large portions of last year, most of my flex spots were used by starters like Larry Fitzgerald, Juju, Hunt*, Funchess, Marvin Jones, Woods.  But I also started a number of TEs in the flex, like Ertz, ASJ, Kittle a couple times.  I certainly would have preferred Doyle a number of different weeks.  Not over Ertz of course.  Asterisk for Hunt because I drafted him everywhere but only one team where I could use him in the flex.

Of those guys only Fitz and Hunt actually outscored Doyle last year in PPG.  But yes, your teams are stacked.  If the guys you were starting at RB/WR were better than those guys it means you have like 4-5 top 20 RBs and 4-5 top 20 WRs in those leagues. 

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12 minutes ago, menobrown said:

I'm in 6 FFPC leagues and if I was offered Doyle for 2.4 I know I'd turn it down in 5 of them with ease but would consider it in a league where I have Gronk and not comfortable with what I have after him should he retire. If I knew he was coming back I'd say no in all 6 leagues.

2017 Doyle was simply like the 2016 Rudolph. He just had his career year. I sold Rudolph for 2.4 last year in an FFPC league and I'd sale Doyle in most as well.

If you believe Doyle is the next Rudolph than I guess that makes sense.  Things are fairly different there though as Rudolph's outlier was much easier to spot since he had been a starter for 5 years prior to the big year without ever approaching those numbers.  Doyle was in only his second year as a starter and his first year was pretty darn solid too.

Still though, this does illustrate how much people undervalue those TE points because even this year Rudolph scored about the same PPG as guys like Agholor, Funchess, Hogan,  Alshon, and Jordan Howard who are all guys that most owners were ecstatic about starting in their flex.  Meanwhile Rudolph owners who had a better starting TE option were probably sitting him on their bench pining over how much they wished they had someone like Alshon or Howard for their flex spot.

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Just now, FreeBaGeL said:

If you believe Doyle is the next Rudolph than I guess that makes sense.  Things are fairly different there though as Rudolph's outlier was much easier to spot since he had been a starter for 5 years prior to the big year without ever approaching those numbers.  Doyle was in only his second year as a starter and his first year was pretty darn solid too.

Still though, this does illustrate how much people undervalue those TE points because even this year Rudolph scored about the same PPG as guys like Agholor, Funchess, Hogan,  Alshon, and Jordan Howard who are all guys that most owners were ecstatic about starting in their flex.

Not really in my case. I am TE horder in FFPC and tend to value it more than most, that's part of the reason I'd not pay 2.4 for Doyle because I'm generally strong in most leagues at TE but the other parts of that equation is I don't believe in Doyle and in some leagues the guy I'd have to cut I like as much if not more than Doyle.

But I love TE's and tend to also think they are undervalued in FFPC. I did my last FFPC startup in 2015 I did I took 5 TE's before I took my second WR, 5 TE's by end of round 13 and in the two rookie drafts we'd have since I took Hunter Henry and Engram. Was not really the plan, but the league undervalued TE's so much it just took me down that road but to some degree it also illustrates how much I like TE.

I have never understood why people feel the need to collect 6-7 WR's but find it odd when I try and collect 3 TE's. It's only one starting lineup spot difference.

 

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16 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

Of those guys only Fitz and Hunt actually outscored Doyle last year in PPG.  But yes, your teams are stacked.  If the guys you were starting at RB/WR were better than those guys it means you have like 4-5 top 20 RBs and 4-5 top 20 WRs in those leagues. 

It also helps to be able to know all of this "in the moment" when we make lineup decisions. Easy to look back now.  I absolutely would have started Doyle a number of weeks there if I had the option all over again.  Or if he were on my roster at the time I likely would have started him, without the benefit of hindsight.  There is no question he had a good year. Funchess and Jones were hot there for awhile and I was riding that wave. Juju too.

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 10:57 AM, Dr. Octopus said:

I think his value would be the same as today in that case - Everything I have read seems to indicate Landry hits the market though. I don't see him coming back - obviously we don't know.

Well I was wrong about this. I guess I should have factored in just how poorly run the 'Phins are.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Well I was wrong about this. I guess I should have factored in just how poorly run the 'Phins are.

Not so fast. At first I thought the same thing (Phins are keeping him bc they're poorly run), but after looking at their cap space, I'm leaning towards thinking they are trying to pull a trade so I think your initial statement will stand. I don't think they'll get much via trade, but on a team with so many needs, I can't fathom them keeping him. They just put themselves $8M over the cap: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

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33 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Not so fast. At first I thought the same thing (Phins are keeping him bc they're poorly run), but after looking at their cap space, I'm leaning towards thinking they are trying to pull a trade so I think your initial statement will stand. I don't think they'll get much via trade, but on a team with so many needs, I can't fathom them keeping him. They just put themselves $8M over the cap: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

Good luck trying to trade him now that they've set the bar at $16MM for year one. If a new team wants to negotiate with him that would need to be the starting point since he could always just sign, take the money and be back on the market next season. I guess teams like Cleveland and the Jets could have interest since they have enough cap space to front load the contracts - Cleveland also has a ton of picks.

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Just now, Dr. Octopus said:

Good luck trying to trade him now that they've set the bar at $16MM for year one. If a new team wants to negotiate with him that would need to be the starting point since he could always just sign, take the money and be back on the market next season. I guess teams like Cleveland and the Jets could have interest since they have enough cap space to front load the contracts - Cleveland also has a ton of picks.

I dunno. It's a violent game and guys tend to take a lot less per year when they can get more guaranteed. Plus, Landry seems to really want out of Miami.

I would :wall: if Cleveland traded for him. They've got Gordon and Coleman with Njoku. They don't need to be throwing the ball to the slot guy very much.

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1 minute ago, FF Ninja said:

I dunno. It's a violent game and guys tend to take a lot less per year when they can get more guaranteed. Plus, Landry seems to really want out of Miami.

I would :wall: if Cleveland traded for him. They've got Gordon and Coleman with Njoku. They don't need to be throwing the ball to the slot guy very much.

Yeah, why on earth would they want to keep drives alive when they could just keep chucking it deep right?

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5 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

I dunno. It's a violent game and guys tend to take a lot less per year when they can get more guaranteed. Plus, Landry seems to really want out of Miami.

I would :wall: if Cleveland traded for him. They've got Gordon and Coleman with Njoku. They don't need to be throwing the ball to the slot guy very much.

It would be a calculated risk but that $16MM would be guaranteed and how many career ending injuries do we really see? But yes, I'm sure he would prefer a long term deal with a higher guarantee.

I could see Cleveland ponying up to be honest, they literally HAVE to spend money and have a crazy amount of picks at their disposal. He would help their passing game and there he wouldn't need to be the focal point of an offense.

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

It would be a calculated risk but that $16MM would be guaranteed and how many career ending injuries do we really see? But yes, I'm sure he would prefer a long term deal with a higher guarantee.

I could see Cleveland ponying up to be honest, they literally HAVE to spend money and have a crazy amount of picks at their disposal. He would help their passing game and there he wouldn't need to be the focal point of an offense.

I hear ya. You could live a nice life off of the take home from $16M (minus income tax & agent's cut). Could retire at age 26. But just saying players don't seem to like the tag and will settle for a lower annual salary with more guaranteed. I don't think it was a good gamble for Miami, though. They'll be lucky to get much via trade and they've put themselves in cap hell if they can't trade him.

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I really don't think they intend to trade him. Tag and trade is technically not allowed anymore by the CBA I believe, though of course teams can try and skirt around it by claiming they intended to keep the player but got an offer they couldn't refuse. Still it's probably more trouble than it's worth for what they could get for landry at this point. 

Regarding cap space the fins haven't done their cap clearing moves yet, which are expected to be substantial. They're going to try and restructure Suh and Tannehill as well as likely cut Julius Thomas and Ja'wan James among others. Those 4 moves alone could free up 50-60 million in cap space. 

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1 minute ago, FreeBaGeL said:

I really don't think they intend to trade him. Tag and trade is technically not allowed anymore by the CBA I believe, though of course teams can try and skirt around it by claiming they intended to keep the player but got an offer they couldn't refuse. Still it's probably more trouble than it's worth for what they could get for landry at this point. 

 

I just read a tweet about a minute ago from a Dolphins beat writer, Armando Salguero, and his tweet basically said he they were going to try and trade him again. Just his opinion of course and he wrote a long article last night detailing how this could blow up in Dolphins face, but he absolutely is convinced the goal is to trade him, not keep him.Now let's see if they can pull it off.

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