I don't quite get your comment. Carter is a first (1.09). And you think an additional first should be on that side. But you don't think Deebo or Kupp are worth a first by themselves. But you think the other side should include two firsts, which would make both Deebo and Kupp worth a first by themselves.I think this is terrible. That 3rd should be a 1st at very minimum. However, I don't view Deebo or Kupp as worth a 1st by themselves and Carter has gone at the back of the 1st in some of the drafts I have seen. I don't think it is worthy of a protest but it is a very bad trade and Team A will ruin his team if he keeps making moves like this.
I’m thinking there are 20 guys you can get to do thatAnd top 20 production is ok but there a 100 WRs I can get to do that.
Not saying I view Carter as a first. Just using that as context as to why this isn't protest worthy. Edwards is worthless to me and a future 1st has less value than a 1st this year. So Carter (a 2nd in my valuation) and a late future 1st seems about fair is what I'm saying.I don't quite get your comment. Carter is a first (1.09). And you think an additional first should be on that side. But you don't think Deebo or Kupp are worth a first by themselves. But you think the other side should include two firsts, which would make both Deebo and Kupp worth a first by themselves.
Sky is the limit. I think he becomes a fixture in the top 10 WR rankings going forward. This is last year you will get him at his current startup ADP (9th-10th round). I believe we will be seeing a lot of Lawrence to Shenault.Fair deal. Depends how one feels about LaViska. I like the kid.
Had I known it was you and B. Edwards not Gus, I would have described the trade with a nicer word than horrendous, perhaps stinky would have been more appropriate Props to you for putting an against the consensus trade of yours out there for people to critique.barackdhouse said:Ok well thanks for the feedback everyone. I edited above but yes it was Bryan Edwards not Gus. It was only one owner that complained and so far nobody else has said anything so it looks like it will hold up.
This was my trade (I'm sure people guessed as much) and I moved Deebo and Kupp. This is one of a couple crappier teams that I bought from DD. This gets to the question some of us have talked about recently about the emotional investment, or perceived investment, into a given player. I had zero investment in either because I bought this team as-is. These are both do not draft guys for me. One is a beast of a player that I like a lot but he is behind Kittle and although some disagree I think he is squarely behind Aiyuk, and that is only when he is actually playing. Kupp has shown the ability to score elite FPs but his health is an even bigger concern to me.
Anyway it is a rebuilding team for me. I have been trying to move Kupp and/or Deebo in this league since February and the best I could get was 2.07 for Kupp and a future 2nd for Deebo. I have advertised them for several months so to any extent that complainer dude is upset he could have gotten them, or one of them, then he can sit and spin. Not going to hold other people's hands on these things.
Which brings me to Carter. Best I could get is a couple 2nds for these two WRs but Carter just went 1.09 in this rookie draft. I literally ####### targeted late 1sts and got refused so now that I got the player equivalent it is somehow imbalanced? And I got Bryan Edwards who is basically a free throw-in but I like his outlook better than Deebo and what the hell I got a 3rd too. I saw on the calcs that this is lopsided against me and I'm a little blown away by that.
I think the TLDR take home here is that right now Carter is eggregiously undervalued by calcs and at least some of the FF community.
I pray Chris Berman isn’t given the opportunity.Two things -
Shenault is the kind of player who needs a nickname. I just can't think of a good one.
I agree with the sentiment that he's worth more on your roster than he is in a trade. There's too many unknown factors that could play into him becoming the next big thing, or a jag. Either way, you're playing Deal or No Deal and the banker is never going to offer you the million your case might contain.
118 WRs put up a top 24 week last year. It is probably about a 100 that had top 20.I’m thinking there are 20 guys you can get to do that
One could play in best ball leagues, but most people are referring to the season when they say "Top 20 production".118 WRs put up a top 24 week last year. It is probably about a 100 that had top 20.
I don't like keeping timebombs on my roster but I have had discussions and really bad offers for Kupp since February. I *did* wait. I don't see people making inseason moves involving paying their 1sts more than *maybe* one or two times per league per season. Those deals don't just fall out of the sky. They are relatively rare and the odds that Kupp is *the* piece somebody feels they want is ridiculously absurdly unlikely. Waiting comes with a really, really risky downside that both those assets become untradable cloggers.you probably should have at least waited.
Right but in my season long leagues I choose and compete one week at a time. Like everyone else. Top 20 doesn't win leagues. It doesn't lose you leagues either but it isn't a high bar.One could play in best ball leagues, but most people are referring to the season when they say "Top 20 production".
Bottom line is you targeted the guy you wanted, was willing to pay the price and are satisfied with your side of the deal.I don't like keeping timebombs on my roster but I have had discussions and really bad offers for Kupp since February. I *did* wait. I don't see people making inseason moves involving paying their 1sts more than *maybe* one or two times per league per season. Those deals don't just fall out of the sky. They are relatively rare and the odds that Kupp is *the* piece somebody feels they want is ridiculously absurdly unlikely. Waiting comes with a really, really risky downside that both those assets become untradable cloggers.
Again I think the big disconnect is that Carter apparently has a polarizing value in the community. I didn't expect him to be so hated and I admit I clearly could have gotten more value. But in my eyes I've got Carter and Kupp as roughly equal and then it is Deebo, who I don't believe in, for Edwards who I do a little bit but is clearly worth less. So I got a 3rd to balance it a little and I was thinking to myself ok I paid a small premium to get a starting RB and another WR5 or WR6 that I can afford to develop but I'm not depending on any more than the previous one that has Kittle and Aiyuk in front in a run first offense. Last I checked starting rookie RBs typically come with a premium. In Carter's case the day 3 thing doesn't bother me. And if he flashes maybe *he* is the one to sell inseason.
Anyway last thought I swear to you at least half of the FFPC owners in my leagues will never trade for a player over 26. Moving Kupp was already threading an incredibly small needle. And Deebo just isn't coveted by many.
I disagree there. If all three of your starting wrs end the season as top 20 in a league of 12, you basically cover the wr1/2 boarder.Right but in my season long leagues I choose and compete one week at a time. Like everyone else. Top 20 doesn't win leagues. It doesn't lose you leagues either but it isn't a high bar.
Depends on what the rest of your team looks like, too. If you have three top-20 WR’s but you have two top-5 RB’s and a top-5 QB, you’re going to be just fine.I disagree there. If all three of your starting wrs end the season as top 20 in a league of 12, you basically cover the wr1/2 boarder.
Sure but I thought the obsession here was to think of these things in vacuums. If we're going to bring context into it, I went from the production of Kupp in either my WR2 spot or flex to the production of my next WR up (looking at choice between Viska, Pittman, Gabriel, T Marshall and a couple others I like) which is admittedly a downgrade in FPs (call it ~2-5 per week) and arguably nil if/when one of my guys emerges, but meanwhile I get Carter in my RB2 spot and probably increased my production in that spot by about 10 FPs per week. Because I was going to be taking zeros there. And even the overall WR1 won't help me win #### if I'm putting up zeros at RB. Kupp is going to be closer to WR20 than WR1. And this team isn't going to be winning this year most likely anyway.I disagree there. If all three of your starting wrs end the season as top 20 in a league of 12, you basically cover the wr1/2 boarder.
By the way is this one better?Then I woke up to another accepted offer. I am actively targeting Carter right now.
FFPC - 1QB
I gave R Wilson, Boyd
I got Carter, Winston, 2022 2nd
When I said wait, I said you could likely have gotten more for him in season and don't feel that is controversial; however I don't view Kupp as a timebomb and feel he is going to have a HUGE yr. So we are polar opposites there.I don't like keeping timebombs on my roster but I have had discussions and really bad offers for Kupp since February. I *did* wait. I don't see people making inseason moves involving paying their 1sts more than *maybe* one or two times per league per season. Those deals don't just fall out of the sky. They are relatively rare and the odds that Kupp is *the* piece somebody feels they want is ridiculously absurdly unlikely. Waiting comes with a really, really risky downside that both those assets become untradable cloggers.
Again I think the big disconnect is that Carter apparently has a polarizing value in the community. I didn't expect him to be so hated and I admit I clearly could have gotten more value. But in my eyes I've got Carter and Kupp as roughly equal and then it is Deebo, who I don't believe in, for Edwards who I do a little bit but is clearly worth less. So I got a 3rd to balance it a little and I was thinking to myself ok I paid a small premium to get a starting RB and another WR5 or WR6 that I can afford to develop but I'm not depending on any more than the previous one that has Kittle and Aiyuk in front in a run first offense. Last I checked starting rookie RBs typically come with a premium. In Carter's case the day 3 thing doesn't bother me. And if he flashes maybe *he* is the one to sell inseason.
Anyway last thought I swear to you at least half of the FFPC owners in my leagues will never trade for a player over 26. Moving Kupp was already threading an incredibly small needle. And Deebo just isn't coveted by many.
Seems fair enough. Carter has to hit obviously but in 1 QB Wilson isn't super important and Boyd, while I still like him, obviously took a big hit with Chase/Higgins as the probable 1/2. His ceiling seems capped for the immediate future. Like you getting a 2nd as well.Then I woke up to another accepted offer. I am actively targeting Carter right now.
FFPC - 1QB
I gave R Wilson, Boyd
I got Carter, Winston, 2022 2nd
Not enough for CMC, in my opinion.12 team PPR (1.25 TE) blockbuster
All the picks are from the runner up team last year
Henry Ruggs
2.11
2022 1st round pick
2022 2nd round pick
2022 3rd round pick
2023 1st round pick
For
CMC
2022 4th round pick
How about if the future 4th was taken out?Not enough for CMC, in my opinion.
Not even closeDez said:12 team PPR (1.25 TE) blockbuster
All the picks are from the runner up team last year
Henry Ruggs
2.11
2022 1st round pick
2022 2nd round pick
2022 3rd round pick
2023 1st round pick
For
CMC
2022 4th round pick
“Ugh, I don’t know. I’m giving up a whole lotta picks here just for just one player.” “I’ll throw in a future 4th rounder.” “Sucker. Works every time.”Andy Dufresne said:How about if the future 4th was taken out?
Was pretty much the key to me making the trade I needed that 4th !“Ugh, I don’t know. I’m giving up a whole lotta picks here just for just one player.” “I’ll throw in a future 4th rounder.” “Sucker. Works every time.”
That’s not a blockbuster, that’s a rape job.Dez said:12 team PPR (1.25 TE) blockbuster
All the picks are from the runner up team last year
Henry Ruggs
2.11
2022 1st round pick
2022 2nd round pick
2022 3rd round pick
2023 1st round pick
For
CMC
2022 4th round pick
I'm pessimistic about Mim's upside with Davis, Moore and Crowder all probably ahead of him on the depth chart (although I did like his talent coming out of college). I'd take him over Meyers though. It's worth a gamble at that price.FFPC 12 Team SF
gave:
Jakobi Meyers
got:
Denzel Mims
I like
Mims
upside in a (hopefully) ascending offense.
I offered him pick 8 this year and two 2022 1sts. I guess he liked this so much more he wouldn't even counter my offer.Dez said:12 team PPR (1.25 TE) blockbuster
All the picks are from the runner up team last year
Henry Ruggs
2.11
2022 1st round pick
2022 2nd round pick
2022 3rd round pick
2023 1st round pick
For
CMC
2022 4th round pick
Well this one kind of got dragged out. I'm not sure that this is an upgrade, but the trade now stands at:One of my top competitors in 1/2 PPR, 1QB dynasty offered:
Raegor, Gus Edwards, 2022 1st, 2023 1st
-for-
Ju Jones, Singletary, Hurts
Man I sure hope your right because you know what about this board is I have made 4 other block busters and every time was told I ripped off the other guy and every single team you guys have been totally wrong and I got it stuck up the wazzu. They always seem like slam dunks at the time and yes I pray I get 3 stud years out of CMC and yes those picks are likely "late" but you know who went late last year in picks in this league ? Justin Jefferson went at the 1.10 and Antonio Gibson went at the 2.04. Them some good late picks.That’s not a blockbuster, that’s a rape job.
That’s probably a little light for Jefferson even in SF, but it’s not egregious.12 team SF
Team A: gets 1.02
Team B: gets Justin Jefferson
Team B is weak at QB.
Seems like a bargain for Kittle in pretty much every format. I don’t see how 1.04 got this done, but kudos to team A for pulling it off.12 team PPR. 1 QB. Short bench league.
Team A gave: E. Ebron, 1.04
Team B gave: G. Kittle
Another bargain. I get the need for a QB, but shocked how cheap team Jefferson let team A off for. Should have been a 1st & 2nd at least, IMO.12 team SF
Team A: gets 1.02
Team B: gets Justin Jefferson
Team B is weak at QB.
I agree with this.I think the TLDR take home here is that right now Carter is eggregiously undervalued by calcs and at least some of the FF community.
Here’s the thing....you can’t use 20-20 hindsight to judge a deal.Man I sure hope your right because you know what about this board is I have made 4 other block busters and every time was told I ripped off the other guy and every single team you guys have been totally wrong and I got it stuck up the wazzu. They always seem like slam dunks at the time and yes I pray I get 3 stud years out of CMC and yes those picks are likely "late" but you know who went late last year in picks in this league ? Justin Jefferson went at the 1.10 and Antonio Gibson went at the 2.04. Them some good late picks.
Here are the 4 other deals I made over the years that each one I was told how bad I ripped other guy off and not only did none work out for me they all ended pretty badly within a year or two.
--------------------------------
South Carolina gave up Ajayi, Jay MIA RB; Parker, DeVante MIA WR
Charlotte gave up Chandler, Scott FA TE; Year 2016 Draft Pick 1.06; Year 2016 Draft Pick 1.10
Wed May 4 4:35:34 p.m. ET 2016 (I would have landed Michael Thomas at the 1.10)
--------------------
Puerto Rico gave up Foles, Nick PHI QB
Charlotte gave up Gerhart, Toby JAC RB; Robinson, Adrien NYG TE; Year 2014 Draft Pick 1.12; Year 2016 Round 3 Draft Pick from Charlotte
Wed Apr 23 8:09:08 p.m. ET 2014 (Remember when Foles was the new hot QB after a 27 TD 2 INT season ? Ya me either but that 1.12 would been Beckham)
---------------------------------------------------
Puerto Rico gave up Richardson, Trent IND RB
Charlotte gave up Mathews, Ryan SDC RB; Powell, Bilal NYJ RB; Bullock, Randy HOU PK; Year 2014 Round 1 Draft Pick from Charlotte; Year 2015 Round 2 Draft Pick from Charlotte; Year 2015 Round 3 Draft Pick from Las Vegas
Thu Sep 26 6:29:29 p.m. ET 2013 (Oh boy this one most of all everyone said I ripped that guy off well we know what happened with good ole Trent)
--------------------------------------------------
Puerto Rico gave up Vereen, Shane NEP RB; Cruz, Victor NYG WR
Charlotte gave up Year 2013 Draft Pick 1.01; Year 2013 Draft Pick 2.05; Year 2013 Draft Pick 2.12
Sat Jul 20 5:02:38 p.m. ET 2013 (And this one I said people in my league say that would quit the league if I did another trade like this giving up "only 1 pick" for Cruz (umm that was the #1 pick folks) and well Cruz had 1 good year for me then got injured and fell off face of the earth.
-----------------------------------------------------
So ya this trade is great for me but so were the other 4 and they all flopped........CMC is a different animal and I love the trade because it is my only way to try and compete vs the super team that beat me by 80 pts in the championship last year but the history of luck in trades like this is not on my side.
So I pray for once you guys are right because you are all 0 for 4 so far over the past 8 years.
This is a terrible trade. Basically 2 late 1sts and 2 late 2nds which wouldn't even more the needle for me. Ruggs and the 3rd aren't anything and picks at the end of the round like that might as well be 2 2nds and 2 3rds. I'd hate to see this if he went to a top end team.Dez said:12 team PPR (1.25 TE) blockbuster
All the picks are from the runner up team last year
Henry Ruggs
2.11
2022 1st round pick
2022 2nd round pick
2022 3rd round pick
2023 1st round pick
For
CMC
2022 4th round pick
I don't know that this is enough for Kittle personally at his age and skill level. Ebron is just a placeholder and Kittle is elite. I traded Kittle earlier this off-season along with a 2022 2nd and got 1.8, 2023 1st (far out but a top 6 projected pick), A-Rob, Irv Smith (who I like better than Ebron), and a 2022 4th. I guess it depends on how much you value 4 and who is there though.12 team PPR. 1 QB. Short bench league.
Team A gave: E. Ebron, 1.04
Team B gave: G. Kittle
Looking at what those picks may have turned out to be many years later will always skew the trade evaluation. Knowing now how players turned out makes it easy to say I would have taken Player X with that pick but you don't know that at the time of the pick. It's just as likely those picks turned out to be busts as well if a different player was taken. You also get skewed by the knowledge you know now of the players involved (like Richardson failing out of the league). At the time he was coming off a huge year and was hyped by many. The fact he bombed can't be known at the time of the deal.Man I sure hope your right because you know what about this board is I have made 4 other block busters and every time was told I ripped off the other guy and every single team you guys have been totally wrong and I got it stuck up the wazzu. They always seem like slam dunks at the time and yes I pray I get 3 stud years out of CMC and yes those picks are likely "late" but you know who went late last year in picks in this league ? Justin Jefferson went at the 1.10 and Antonio Gibson went at the 2.04. Them some good late picks.
Here are the 4 other deals I made over the years that each one I was told how bad I ripped other guy off and not only did none work out for me they all ended pretty badly within a year or two.
--------------------------------
South Carolina gave up Ajayi, Jay MIA RB; Parker, DeVante MIA WR
Charlotte gave up Chandler, Scott FA TE; Year 2016 Draft Pick 1.06; Year 2016 Draft Pick 1.10
Wed May 4 4:35:34 p.m. ET 2016 (I would have landed Michael Thomas at the 1.10)
--------------------
Puerto Rico gave up Foles, Nick PHI QB
Charlotte gave up Gerhart, Toby JAC RB; Robinson, Adrien NYG TE; Year 2014 Draft Pick 1.12; Year 2016 Round 3 Draft Pick from Charlotte
Wed Apr 23 8:09:08 p.m. ET 2014 (Remember when Foles was the new hot QB after a 27 TD 2 INT season ? Ya me either but that 1.12 would been Beckham)
---------------------------------------------------
Puerto Rico gave up Richardson, Trent IND RB
Charlotte gave up Mathews, Ryan SDC RB; Powell, Bilal NYJ RB; Bullock, Randy HOU PK; Year 2014 Round 1 Draft Pick from Charlotte; Year 2015 Round 2 Draft Pick from Charlotte; Year 2015 Round 3 Draft Pick from Las Vegas
Thu Sep 26 6:29:29 p.m. ET 2013 (Oh boy this one most of all everyone said I ripped that guy off well we know what happened with good ole Trent)
--------------------------------------------------
Puerto Rico gave up Vereen, Shane NEP RB; Cruz, Victor NYG WR
Charlotte gave up Year 2013 Draft Pick 1.01; Year 2013 Draft Pick 2.05; Year 2013 Draft Pick 2.12
Sat Jul 20 5:02:38 p.m. ET 2013 (And this one I said people in my league say that would quit the league if I did another trade like this giving up "only 1 pick" for Cruz (umm that was the #1 pick folks) and well Cruz had 1 good year for me then got injured and fell off face of the earth.
-----------------------------------------------------
So ya this trade is great for me but so were the other 4 and they all flopped........CMC is a different animal and I love the trade because it is my only way to try and compete vs the super team that beat me by 80 pts in the championship last year but the history of luck in trades like this is not on my side.
So I pray for once you guys are right because you are all 0 for 4 so far over the past 8 years.
I don't play SF but this feels way light to me. Jefferson just went for 1.1 and a projected top 6 pick in 2022 in my league. I know SF is different but I'd think I'd go shopping for a different QB with a different asset if I had to go get one.12 team SF
Team A: gets 1.02
Team B: gets Justin Jefferson
Team B is weak at QB.
Wait - looking at this again, you’re saying team B gave up 1.02, but then you said team B is weak at QB?osiriskid said:12 team SF
Team A: gets 1.02
Team B: gets Justin Jefferson
Team B is weak at QB.
Seeing as I’m a bit ambivalent on the players involved, I’d prefer the 2.12 & early 2022 2nd side of this myself.Team A: 2.4, 2.12, 2022 (early) 2nd, Hardman
Team B: 4.5, 4.12, 2022 (late) 4th, Hockenson
I think this is a pretty even trade if it is TE premium. If TE gets normal points then it was a touch of an overpay as 4ths are really not worth a ton. I don't have a problem with it if you are in a big need for a TE but might be just a touch much to swap 3 2nds for 4ths.Team A: 2.4, 2.12, 2022 (early) 2nd, Hardman
Team B: 4.5, 4.12, 2022 (late) 4th, Hockenson
Regardless of formatTeam A: 2.4, 2.12, 2022 (early) 2nd, Hardman
Team B: 4.5, 4.12, 2022 (late) 4th, Hockenson
Prefer the weakest 1st here, no way to tell which that is.FFPC
I gave Lockett, 2022 1st (mine)
I got Carter, 2022 1st (theirs)
Hockenson. This is the type of 3 for 1 deal that nibbles around the periphery of your roster, allowing you to avoid giving up a blue chip, but you receive a blue chip and gain two roster spots.Team A: 2.4, 2.12, 2022 (early) 2nd, Hardman
Team B: 4.5, 4.12, 2022 (late) 4th, Hockenson
Carter unless the first you gave looks like a top 4 lock and somehow I doubt that's the case.FFPC
I gave Lockett, 2022 1st (mine)
I got Carter, 2022 1st (theirs)