Foosball God
Foos
And if it's a consensual thing between them then great, I'm not the moral police, do what you like. It doesn't seem to be the case though if a bunch of women are coming forward. Like I said, we'll see.
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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
See my post edit. Even being creepy & weird doesn’t require consent. Men are creepy & weird towards women all the time.
It might be a terminable offense if it’s workplace-related, but it’s not criminal.
It isn’t illegal to be creepy & weird towards women & consent is irrelevant to that aspect.
And women can’t take men to court simply for being creepy & weird. there’d be millions of lawsuits a day. I’m not saying that’s ok. I’m just saying. Men be creepy.
It must literally be sexual assault for it to be actionable either civilly or criminally.
Saying something creepy isn’t a crime, even if you’re naked and being massaged. Even popping wood in that circumstance isn’t a crime.
It’s an important distinction to draw here. To be actionable there must be assault. And it’s a lot easier to have 16 accusers say he was being inappropriate than to have 16 accusers prove assault.
which is probably why this is such a public spectacle. That’s much easier to do and will have better results of a settlement.
Hypothetically speaking.
dhockster
Footballguy
So is rubbing your genitals on another person intentionally without consent, by a legal definition, sexual assualt? Because that is what a lot of them are alleging.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Being dumb and deviant isn’t illegal though.
Always have to circle back to that.
Sexual assault is illegal, and very serious. It will have to be proved that any sexual contact was non-consensual.
That’s really the long and short of it.
If it was a consensual rub & tug, then it’s a form of prostitution & both parties might be in minor jeopardy.
I think it’s going to be very difficult to prove assault for what took place behind closed doors. Even if it’s 16 she saids to 1 he said, that’s 16x sexual assault will have to be proved. The only time that ratio matters is in the court of public opinion. “Well if 16 women are saying it...” kinda thing.
And it’ll be even tougher to prove if these aren’t certified healthcare professionals.
Again; again; again: I am not alleging any of this. I’m looking at what we know and what I know of the legal standards of proof, I think it’s gonna be tough.
Watson is already heading off the fact that one or more likely has his DNA by saying “consensual”’as opposed to “I didn’t do it”.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Foosball God
Foos
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
nittanylion
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
dhockster
Footballguy
Learn something new everyday. My new insult to people based on that definition is "Floor polisher"
pantherclub
Footballguy
Major
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
In general...
Civil v Criminal
One is a payday. One sees the individual potentially face just freedom-restricting consequences for law breaking activity.
If this guy is an actual sexual menace, how and why would this not be criminal and why would anyone not want him behind bars for it?
I don't get it. How is this ONLY civil?
Civil v Criminal
One is a payday. One sees the individual potentially face just freedom-restricting consequences for law breaking activity.
If this guy is an actual sexual menace, how and why would this not be criminal and why would anyone not want him behind bars for it?
I don't get it. How is this ONLY civil?
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Likely because there is no benefit to the women.......unless they are now threatening police reports to help with the settlement.
Also, good luck putting someone in jail for this. Someone rich with no record.
Exactly!!
Only interested in the cash. Which raises even more flags. When OJ did “his thing” it defaulted to a criminal trial. The Goldman’s wanted OJ put away. Only after they lost did they seek Justice civilly. Shouldn’t that be the main interest?? To get Deshaun put away if he’s such an evil predator.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
isn't someone being incarcerated (or at least confirmed as one w other repercussions) for sexual deviancy a benefit?
zoonation
Footballguy
"I didn't do it EVERY time, so I didn't do it anytime!"
"Oh, except for the times they consented, which was every time I tried it!"
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That’s probably his best defense.zoonation said:
I mean, if it was you being accused how would you handle it?
zoonation
Footballguy
It may be his best defense, but I am not buying it at all. "here are some girls who say I didn't rub my junk on them. So, therefore, I never did it to anyone". Not at all persuasive. Especially when you throw in the "Oh, by the way, I do proposition many massage therapy women and they all loved it". I mean, come on.
I would not be at all surprised if some of them went for it. Imagine how many times he has done this? But I also have no doubt several did not and now they are all lining up. Also, it is not okay to ask by wiping it out and touching her with it.
dhockster
Footballguy
Not an attorney, but I see it this way: Each of these cases comes down to he said/she said with no other physical evidence of what he actually did (or didn't do) in the massage room. From a criminal case standpoint, this makes it very easy to arrive at reasonable doubt. I think most prosecutors would be very reluctant to actually make a criminal charge in these cases. That does not mean that Deshaun did not do what the plaintiffs said he did. That is why it sucks to be a woman in this day and age and be sexually assaulted in some way. Not only do you suffer the assault, but then it is difficult to punish the perpetrator. Even with the metoo movement, things are still stacked against women.Soulfly3 said:
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I don’t disagree with any of this, especially the last part (except the spelling of whipping, but that’s just picking nits) - but what matters is what can be proved in a court of law, if this gets that far.
Watson’s defense is basically that any sexual encounter alleged was consensual. IMO he has to do this because it’s obvious at this point that there’s towels, robes, underwear or tissues with Watson’s DNA on it/them. So he has to make a claim of consensual contact.
For instances where there is no physical evidence, his best defense is to deny deny deny that anything untoward happened. The burden of proof is on the accuser(s).
This is his only viable strategy, IMO. And it’s not bad, as strategies go.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
To those women? Maybe, maybe not.Soulfly3 said:
Leverage is much more beneficial. There is more money to be had if Watson can continue his career, not blow all his money on lawyers and receive no future millions.
zoonation
Footballguy
I don't think it is that simple. I suspect that the women, who are actual massage therapists, will be given the benefit of the doubt that it is completely abnormal for a patient to whip out his erect pecker. Which, of course it is.
zoonation
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That’s what’s challenging here. Proof is what matters, not what’s alleged to have happened.
Men sometimes get elections during massage. Even with a professional massage therapist.
That’s not illegal. It’s awkward, but not illegal.
Propositioning the women is morally questionable, but also not illegal.
Pushing one’s junk on a woman is totally illegal.
But that would need to be proven. (Proved?) whatever
And to your point about “actual massage therapists”, I’ve said similar. It goes to their credibility if they are licensed sports massage therapists, and IMO if a number of them are and make similar claims, it hurts Watson’s chances. But right now we have no idea if that’s the case.
If it turns out that they aren’t licensed certified massage therapists, it’s going to be much more difficult for their case.
As some have suggested, this could be a civil thing & then it becomes an extended PR battle. I’m not talking about that stuff. I’m talking about the standard of proof needed if it goes to court, or if the police open an investigation.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
From your perspective, I guess.
From their perspective, possibly not. Still a lot of ways this can go. It's been what, a week?
Key to note civil is a choice anyone can make. Anyone can file a civil case against anyone, it's your choice.
We don't get to decide what goes to criminal court, that's for law enforcement to decide. And part of that decision for law enforcement is if they think they can win in trial, which is considerably harder to do since criminal cases guilt is supposed to be determined beyond reasonableness of doubt while civil you just need to make a case that you think it's more likely then not someone is guilty, better then 50/50.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
And yet somehow it feels like so much longer.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
100% all of this. It’s what I’ve eluded to in the last page or so.
we, the public, might be creeped out by someone’s behavior. All circumstantial evidence we know about might point to that person being a serial creep who does creepy things.
but the only way this ends up In court is if there’s enough evidence for a DA to pursue that route.
And the standard of proof it higher than “16 women said x about Watson”. They need evidence.
I believe it would be very difficult to prove anything here. And in our system of justice theres the presumption of innocence and burden of proof is on the accuser.
Civil cases are far different. From what I understand it’s more of a crap shoot, which is why sometimes innocent people will settle out of court.
Foosball God
Foos
Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Maybe they do want him to be criminally punished, whether that be jail time or otherwise, but are told that it is very unlikely for this to occur. How do you then exact some sort of punishment on him? A financial punishment, outing his behavior in a legal setting where everything gets recorded, maybe making enough publicity that it curbs his behavior or is high enough profile that other massage therapists know the risks. All those are perfectly understandable reasons imo.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
the same way it's unlikely that 15 women are lying, id find it equally as unlikely that one of 15 doesn't have a decent enough case to prive it criminally.
It just feels off, in its entirety. But maybe this is how it all works, i legitimately dont know. But doesn't feel right
Synthesizer
Footballguy
What if the women are choosing a civil case simply because they want Watson called out for his creepy behavior? Same reason a lot of women have spoken up during the MeToo movement.
massraider
Footballguy
Yea, they really got ahold of both those guys, after decades of both of them acting with complete impunity.
Your example kind of prove the point why you go civil.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Not to mention that Cosby is in no way analogous to what Watson is being accused of. Not that the accusations against Watson are awesome, but he’s not being accused of drugging and raping anyone.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
that's fair - im just asking questions because it doesnt make sense to me.
if all they want is for him to be a known creep and pay up some $ - bodes well for fantasy reasons. he probably won't miss much (if any) time, and life goes on...
but you know... still think a criminal should be criminally charged, but whatever.
Kevrunner
Footballguy
I was just reading on a Houston Texans forum that 2 woman are leaving the civil suit and are filing criminal charges. We’ll see if this is true or not soon.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That could accelerate things one way or the other.
If they do this, and the police determine there isn’t enough to pursue criminally, it may all fall apart.
on the other hand, if police determine there is enough evidence to pursue it criminally, Watson is probably toast.
massraider
Footballguy
None of this makes sense to me, but I get the gist, I think.
Nailing both Cosby and Weinstein didn't occur for decades, and took the kind of public pressure that came from women going public, before any kind of prosecutor acted. Several of those womenwent to police, and got nowhere, so I don't know what fantasy world someone lives in where it's so easy for victims to see criminal justice. Some people watch too much Law&Order SVU, I guess.
And you know, before these guys were convicted, there were a bunch of people on the internet saying these women were a bunch of failed actresses out for money.
massraider
Footballguy
The crappy part about Cosby was that it was just known, a Hollywood secret many people had heard. One comedian goes viral mention it in his act, and THAT'S what made people demand justice.
