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QB Deshaun Watson, HOU


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13 minutes ago, moleculo said:

any chance this dude plays in 2021?

I took a flyer on him in 15th round (redraft) last weekend.  I figure his status should be resolved by opening day - if he plays, well worth it.  If not, he will be the first guy I cut.

 Slim chance, not a bad late round flier.

I tend to think it's a non-starter on him playing until/if the Houston PD announced if they are going to move forward with criminal charges. That still may not be good enough but I think that domino needs to fall first.

In dynasty this is possibly shaping up as a worse case scenario. Meaning his owners might be without him for 1.5-2 years as Texans might ice him this year and the league next.

 

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13 minutes ago, moleculo said:

any chance this dude plays in 2021?

I took a flyer on him in 15th round (redraft) last weekend.  I figure his status should be resolved by opening day - if he plays, well worth it.  If not, he will be the first guy I cut.

There is certainly a chance he plays in 2021. I highly doubt he plays week 1, but in a 12-team league he's probably worth a flier in the last few rounds. I'd take him over any of the unsettled QB situations guys(SF, NE, NO, Chi) and over low upside starters like Goff, Z.Wilson, and Darnold. Like you said, worst case, he's your first cut. 

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30 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Meaning his owners might be without him for 1.5-2 years as Texans might ice him this year and the league next.

I would put this possibility at as close to zero as possible, unless there are criminal charges, a conviction, and jail time.

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8 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

I would put this possibility at as close to zero as possible, unless there are criminal charges, a conviction, and jail time.

Not sure I could disagree with a comment more.

Unless his criminal case is wrapped up with no pending charges the NFL is not going to punish him this year. In other words his only shot to not have his 2022 season abbreviated in part or in whole is for the criminal portion of his cases to be wrapped up in a timely enough manner for the NFL to investigate and suspend him for the 2021 season. That's it, that's his only shot to not see a suspension bleed into the 2022 season.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Not sure I could disagree with a comment more.

Unless his criminal case is wrapped up with no pending charges the NFL is not going to punish him this year. In other words his only shot to not have his 2022 season abbreviated in part or in whole is for the criminal portion of his cases to be wrapped up in a timely enough manner for the NFL to investigate and suspend him for the 2021 season. That's it, that's his only shot to not see a suspension bleed into the 2022 season.

Houston is not going to let him rot all season in the absence of NFL action.  The NFL is only going to do something when they are forced to do so.

I'm not expecting any criminal charges during this season, probably not ever.

When he settles he will get a token NFL suspension and he will be rewarded with a trade.

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2 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

Houston is not going to let him rot all season in the absence of NFL action.  The NFL is only going to do something when they are forced to do so.

I'm not expecting any criminal charges during this season, probably not ever.

When he settles he will get a token NFL suspension and he will be rewarded with a trade.

 

Ok, cool enough. Our split in opinions is almost entirely related to fact I do think Houston is going to let him rot all year. Just suck up the $10M or so and procure him as trade bait for next year.  I don't see him ever suiting up for them again and view his best odds to play this year is for a trade to happen and seems like no wants to make that move until some things get cleared up at least a little.

I also do not expect any criminal charges, I just think that's blocking the NFL from investigating and suspending him and that's holding everything up. 

 

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I want to believe a local prosecutor will make the same decision whether an athlete is on a local team or from a different state, but I have wondered - if Watson is traded out of state - whether that makes it easier for a prosecutor to make the decision to pursue charges.

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  • Faust changed the title to QB Deshaun Watson - dealing with a lingering minor injury
56 minutes ago, Faust said:

I mean. it's graphic, and made me throw up in my mouth a bit... but other than brushing up against her is it criminal (or even unjust in a civil sense) to ask someone to do things, or ask her if she desires things? I get the discomfort, but say "no, that's inappropriate," and don't have him as a client again.

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46 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

I mean. it's graphic, and made me throw up in my mouth a bit... but other than brushing up against her is it criminal (or even unjust in a civil sense) to ask someone to do things, or ask her if she desires things? I get the discomfort, but say "no, that's inappropriate," and don't have him as a client again.

 

As a man, it is very easy for me to say this is no big deal, she should just move on. As a man, it is probably going to be impossible to know what it is like to be a woman and experience the emotional trauma that comes from these situations. I only start to get probably a small measure of what it's like when I imagine my daughter or wife being subjected to that treatment. Then I begin to feel there should be some very real punishment given out to the perpetrator, and that this is a pretty big deal. But maybe that is just me.

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38 minutes ago, dhockster said:

 

As a man, it is very easy for me to say this is no big deal, she should just move on. As a man, it is probably going to be impossible to know what it is like to be a woman and experience the emotional trauma that comes from these situations. I only start to get probably a small measure of what it's like when I imagine my daughter or wife being subjected to that treatment. Then I begin to feel there should be some very real punishment given out to the perpetrator, and that this is a pretty big deal. But maybe that is just me.

It's a big deal. My question is whether it is the sort of big deal that demand criminal or civil ramifications. If I'm at the dentist and say "You should undo my zipper" or "Do you want to undo my zipper?" I'd expect to be kicked out, told never to come back, but would not expect to wind up in jail or face a civil suit. Maybe I'm wrong, I honestly don't know. This is just not as bad as what I was imagining when I read that the civil claims are "sexual assault." 

Edited by BigJim®
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1 hour ago, dhockster said:

I only start to get probably a small measure of what it's like when I imagine my daughter or wife being subjected to that treatment. Then I begin to feel there should be some very real punishment given out to the perpetrator, and that this is a pretty big deal. But maybe that is just me.

 

Definitely feel this way as a dad to a daughter, but still...anyone with a mother of sister. Come on, it’s 2021. Men used to be able to be complete jerks and get away with it. Thankfully no more. 

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2 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

 

Definitely feel this way as a dad to a daughter, but still...anyone with a mother of sister. Come on, it’s 2021. Men used to be able to be complete jerks and get away with it. Thankfully no more. 

Yeah, I'm definitely glad I don't have daughters. If I did, I'd just recommend she not make her career putting her hands all over naked dudes in private environments. In all seriousness, and without shifting blame here. I wouldn't want that for my daughter.

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Just now, BigJim® said:

Yeah, I'm definitely glad I don't have daughters. If I did, I'd just recommend she not make her career putting her hands all over naked dudes in private environments. In all seriousness, and without shifting blame here. I wouldn't want that for my daughter.

 

It makes you hyper aware of the fears and pressures women face every day, stuff that never even occurs to most men. I’m glad my dsughter is growing up in a world where quid pro quo is no longer the norm. But as a young woman, as a minority/poc, she runs into subtle bias all the time (& handles it with uncommon graciousness.)

IDK what to think about Watson, would like to take a wait & see approach. But I’ve been around coddled young men and narcissistic hubris enough to realize that among the range of possible outcomes is he did everything these 22 (24?) women said. And if so, the actual number of victims is probably an order of magnitude higher.

It’s a weird deal but sometimes when people get caught/exposed they deny no matter what, as if they do it enough they can convince themselves. It’s odd behavior but fairly common IME.

It’s also possible my instincts are wrong and Watson said/did none of these things. There doesn’t seem to be hard evidence, just a whole lot (a lot!)of smoke? Anyway, while that would go against most of my life  experiences in these kind of situations, I’ve been wrong before and will be again. 

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4 hours ago, BigJim® said:

It's a big deal. My question is whether it is the sort of big deal that demand criminal or civil ramifications. If I'm at the dentist and say "You should undo my zipper" or "Do you want to undo my zipper?" I'd expect to be kicked out, told never to come back, but would not expect to wind up in jail or face a civil suit. Maybe I'm wrong, I honestly don't know. This is just not as bad as what I was imagining when I read that the civil claims are "sexual assault." 

That's the thing, I certainly don't read that as assault at all. Is it gross and sleazy ? Sure. But I don't really see criminal behavior there. If this is the worst story about Watson, he'll 100% be cleared, and this will have been much ado about nothing. 

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15 hours ago, BigJim® said:

It's a big deal. My question is whether it is the sort of big deal that demand criminal or civil ramifications. If I'm at the dentist and say "You should undo my zipper" or "Do you want to undo my zipper?" I'd expect to be kicked out, told never to come back, but would not expect to wind up in jail or face a civil suit. Maybe I'm wrong, I honestly don't know. This is just not as bad as what I was imagining when I read that the civil claims are "sexual assault." 

The difference is that you don't have any clout or power to impact the dentist's business.  If afterwards you are pissed off that the dentist wouldn't unzip you then there isn't much you're going to be able to do.  In Watson's case he has/had immense influence and could definitely impact a massage therapists business.  Not to mention the physical factor of him being much bigger and stronger than these women.  This is most definitely worthy of a civil trial, it remains to be seen if it is worth a criminal one.

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19 hours ago, BigJim® said:

I want to believe a local prosecutor will make the same decision whether an athlete is on a local team or from a different state, but I have wondered - if Watson is traded out of state - whether that makes it easier for a prosecutor to make the decision to pursue charges.


They do make decisions on whether or not they think they can win at trial - although it shouldn’t matter a jury would theoretically be more willing to convict a guy that didn’t play for their favorite team.

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18 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

The difference is that you don't have any clout or power to impact the dentist's business.  If afterwards you are pissed off that the dentist wouldn't unzip you then there isn't much you're going to be able to do.  In Watson's case he has/had immense influence and could definitely impact a massage therapists business.  Not to mention the physical factor of him being much bigger and stronger than these women.  This is most definitely worthy of a civil trial, it remains to be seen if it is worth a criminal one.

This seems like a lot of conjecture. If we're extending sexual assault cause of action (civil or criminal) to creepy sexual suggestions by guys who are bigger than the women , we're going to need a bigger jail system, and a lot more judges.

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20 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

This seems like a lot of conjecture. If we're extending sexual assault cause of action (civil or criminal) to creepy sexual suggestions by guys who are bigger than the women , we're going to need a bigger jail system, and a lot more judges.

The fundamental problem here is that you can't imagine yourself in a situation where you feel threatened by that kind of advance, so it seems like no big deal (not that you condone it, but just that the situation is one that should be easily shrugged off).  I'm saying that for women it isn't that easy, just from this thread alone you can see that people don't believe you, or think you are just trying to go for the money, or are just trying to bring a successful man down.  The women themselves say they were concerned about their reputation and how it might impact their businesses.  They have to deal with and think about way more than you or I would if someone made creepy advances on us when we're trying to do our job.

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20 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

The fundamental problem here is that you can't imagine yourself in a situation where you feel threatened by that kind of advance, so it seems like no big deal (not that you condone it, but just that the situation is one that should be easily shrugged off).  

It's bad. It's creepy, pervy and borderline sociopathic based on the numbers. I'll not root for the guy again. That said, there are infinite things that disgust me that I don't think belong in civil or criminal court. I just don;t get why you are the 2nd person to describe my opinion as "no big deal." Does something need to be criminal in your mind for it to be a big deal?

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2 hours ago, BigJim® said:

It's bad. It's creepy, pervy and borderline sociopathic based on the numbers. I'll not root for the guy again. That said, there are infinite things that disgust me that I don't think belong in civil or criminal court. I just don;t get why you are the 2nd person to describe my opinion as "no big deal." Does something need to be criminal in your mind for it to be a big deal?

Civil is not criminal

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18 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

Does something have to be actionable civilly or criminally to be a big deal? 

I'm really not sure where this is going?  What makes it a big deal if it isn't?  Like how can it be a "big" deal otherwise?  Big implies that it isn't minor.

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10 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

I'm really not sure where this is going?  What makes it a big deal if it isn't?  Like how can it be a "big" deal otherwise?  Big implies that it isn't minor.

Your reply to me was "you can't imagine yourself in a situation where you feel threatened by that kind of advance, so it seems like no big deal." My exact original quote was "It's a big deal. My question is whether it is the sort of big deal that demand criminal or civil ramifications." For the record I think it's a big deal. I think we're done here.

 

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Quote

SportsTalk 790's Aaron Wilson reports there is "no trade imminent or developing" for Texans QB Deshaun Watson at this time.

The Eagles are rumored to have a deal on the table for Watson involving multiple picks despite his ongoing lawsuits for alleged sexual misconduct. The issue is that neither the Texans or league have stepped in and taken accountability amid said legal disputes, being as lenient as to allow Watson to comically participate in Houston's camp as a scout team safety and defensive end just to avoid the daily fines. Trading for the 25-year-old while he faces sexual assault accusations from 22 women ahead of February's deposition would obviously be a PR nightmare for the Eagles, not to mention outright embarrassing and a black mark against the NFL and commissioner Roger Goodell. Watson still isn't expected to play a single snap in Houston (or any other team for that matter) until his legal issues are behind him.

RELATED: 

Philadelphia Eagles

SOURCE: Aaron Wilson on Twitter

Aug 5, 2021, 12:04 AM ET

 

 

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Talks heating up between Texans and Eagles

The Philadelphia Eagles, a team who monitored Watson’s legal situation and were reportedly interested in a trade appear to be the front-runners, according to Chris Trapasso of CBS Sports.

The trade talks between the two sides are heating up, according to the report. Previously, Eagles quarterback Jalen Hurtssaid it was all noise when asked about the Eagles reported interest in Watson.

However, both sides seem to be working towards a deal.

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20 hours ago, need2know said:

I bet he plays this season

Based on training camp and how both sides are acting, if he stays with the Texans this season, he will not play. I think it is likely for him to stay with the Texans this season because unless his legal issues/league status are resolved, any team trading for Deshaun are going to give up less than market value to get him. I think the Texans are hoping things get resolved in the off season, and thus can deal him then for a substantial return.

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21 hours ago, BigJim® said:

Your reply to me was "you can't imagine yourself in a situation where you feel threatened by that kind of advance, so it seems like no big deal." My exact original quote was "It's a big deal. My question is whether it is the sort of big deal that demand criminal or civil ramifications." For the record I think it's a big deal. I think we're done here.

 


Do you think any of these things are worthy of criminal or civil ramifications?

Quote

The 22 active civil suits allege Watson forced two women to perform oral sex, ejaculated on three women and in front of three others, groped four women and kissed another woman unprompted upon arrival for a massage appointment. Eighteen of the 22 active suits accuse Watson of inappropriately touching women with his penis during massage therapy sessions.

 

Edit to add:   Here's the problem here.  It isn't that we're viewing the situation too harshly. It's that you aren't even addressing the actual situation.

On 8/4/2021 at 8:22 AM, BigJim® said:

This seems like a lot of conjecture. If we're extending sexual assault cause of action (civil or criminal) to creepy sexual suggestions by guys who are bigger than the women , we're going to need a bigger jail system, and a lot more judges.


Summing up accusations of forced oral sex, eighteen cases of rubbing his junk on women, and several of ejaculating on them as just "creepy sexual suggestions" is horribly inapt.

Create a fictional lesser version of events and react to it and instead of reality, and of course other people reacting to the real situation aren't going to agree.

Edited by GregR
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1 hour ago, dhockster said:

Based on training camp and how both sides are acting, if he stays with the Texans this season, he will not play. I think it is likely for him to stay with the Texans this season because unless his legal issues/league status are resolved, any team trading for Deshaun are going to give up less than market value to get him. I think the Texans are hoping things get resolved in the off season, and thus can deal him then for a substantial return.

 

To me what you outlay here is easily the most likely outcome. Hard to trade with everything going on. By next off-season a fair assumption everyone will know Watson's legal and league status going forward   and they would also know the exact 2022 picks they would acquire. The only thing they are contending for this season is 1.1 and Watson not playing only helps and they don't want him being the face of the franchise any longer.

Texans caught one break in this and that's the timing with respect to Watson's contract. Watson's base salary in 2021 is just a little over $10M but all the other remaining years he'll earn at least $32M. Paying him $10M to do nothing on top of the bonus proration probably burns the Texans but beats paying $32m+.

Now if you are Watson you'd hope with everything you can the NFL would suspend you in 2021 instead of that suspension going into future years. As an example the difference in a 8 game suspension in 2021 vs 2022 is about an $11M difference to Watson. I don't think this gets mentioned enough as that might be additional motivation for Watson to settle and try and get the NFL to put his suspension on the 2021 books.

 

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  • Faust changed the title to QB Deshaun Watson - Is there legitimate trade interest in him while the off field issues are unresolved?
47 minutes ago, GregR said:


Do you think any of these things are worthy of criminal or civil ramifications?

The 22 active civil suits allege Watson forced two women to perform oral sex, ejaculated on three women and in front of three others, groped four women and kissed another woman unprompted upon arrival for a massage appointment. Eighteen of the 22 active suits accuse Watson of inappropriately touching women with his penis during massage therapy sessions.

Possibly. Cases have already been filed so we see what a jury thinks. That description seems like it better fits "sexual assault." But just to be 1000% clear, prior exchanges (the one you quoted) was squarely limited to discussing the "Deshaun Watson accuser goes into graphic detail about massage requests." That interview was not at all what you are now asking about. No one was forced to do anything. *That* accuser described that Watson asked her to do something creepy in session 1, and presumably she did not do it. She was unoffended/unpressured enough to come back to give a 2nd session, where she alleged he asked if she wanted to do something else pervy, and she apparently did not. 

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2 hours ago, GregR said:


Do you think any of these things are worthy of criminal or civil ramifications?

 

Edit to add:   Here's the problem here.  It isn't that we're viewing the situation too harshly. It's that you aren't even addressing the actual situation.


Summing up accusations of forced oral sex, eighteen cases of rubbing his junk on women, and several of ejaculating on them as just "creepy sexual suggestions" is horribly inapt.

Create a fictional lesser version of events and react to it and instead of reality, and of course other people reacting to the real situation aren't going to agree.

So your problem is me reacting only to the link I was responding to? Ok. My god why did I open this thread? I give not two craps if they end up putting Watson in a dungeon.

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3 hours ago, menobrown said:

 

To me what you outlay here is easily the most likely outcome. Hard to trade with everything going on. By next off-season a fair assumption everyone will know Watson's legal and league status going forward   and they would also know the exact 2022 picks they would acquire. The only thing they are contending for this season is 1.1 and Watson not playing only helps and they don't want him being the face of the franchise any longer.

Texans caught one break in this and that's the timing with respect to Watson's contract. Watson's base salary in 2021 is just a little over $10M but all the other remaining years he'll earn at least $32M. Paying him $10M to do nothing on top of the bonus proration probably burns the Texans but beats paying $32m+.

Now if you are Watson you'd hope with everything you can the NFL would suspend you in 2021 instead of that suspension going into future years. As an example the difference in a 8 game suspension in 2021 vs 2022 is about an $11M difference to Watson. I don't think this gets mentioned enough as that might be additional motivation for Watson to settle and try and get the NFL to put his suspension on the 2021 books.

 

 

I think you make a great point. I am a little surprised Deshaun hasn't settled yet but I think his legal team's first objective was to get Deshaun paid for this season and not pay any fines for holding out. He reported so no holdout, and now he is out because his foot hurts but the team really won't say what is happening with him or his injury. So he is basically holding out and getting paid by the Texans to do it. Objective one accomplished.

Now I think Deshaun's legal team is going to try and get the NFL to give him any suspension they want to hand out in the 2021 season, for the reason you stated above, it will cost him a lot less to be suspended in 2021. I think he probably has to settle first before the league will do anything. So I think it is very reasonable  that Deshaun might settle within the first month of the season. The league can mull the settlement over for a few weeks and then suspend him for the last half of 2021. Then Deshaun can be traded in the offseason, and Deshaun, the Texans, and the NFL can enter 2022 without this situation hanging over their heads.

All of this changes if criminal charges are filed, but based on virtually all of the evidence that we know about being he said/she said, I think it is going to be hard for any jurisdiction to bring criminal charges because the likelihood of conviction will be very small.

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38 minutes ago, massraider said:

Football related:

A radio host you've never heard of says the Eagles have offered two 1's and the Slim Reaper for DeShaun.  

https://twitter.com/DanSileoShow/status/1423285741853962253

Come for the Eagles fan feeding frenzy, stay for him calling the fans a bunch of idiots.  

:headbang:

It would have taken the Texans all of .0002 seconds to accept that deal if it were really offered.  

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On 8/4/2021 at 1:36 PM, Foosball God said:

I'm really not sure where this is going?  What makes it a big deal if it isn't?  Like how can it be a "big" deal otherwise?  Big implies that it isn't minor.

 

I think the civics point here is that it is possible for something to be a "big deal" without immediately requiring litigation.  It's generally acknowledged that we are an overly litigious society.  The flip side of that argument is that we are also an entitlement society and its doubtful that the league would take action in the absence of litigation...which is sad.

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Its crazy to me that in today's media climate, where even the smallest story will get days/weeks of consistent coverage, that in 6 months we have basically zero hard evidence having been made public. I know its not encouraged by legal teams to disclose info to the public on either side, but it also never remains this quiet for this long, especially with this many people involved. 

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46 minutes ago, massraider said:

Football related:

A radio host you've never heard of says the Eagles have offered two 1's and the Slim Reaper for DeShaun.  

https://twitter.com/DanSileoShow/status/1423285741853962253

Come for the Eagles fan feeding frenzy, stay for him calling the fans a bunch of idiots.  

:headbang:

Gregory House reacts....

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6 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:
53 minutes ago, massraider said:

Football related:

A radio host you've never heard of says the Eagles have offered two 1's and the Slim Reaper for DeShaun.  

https://twitter.com/DanSileoShow/status/1423285741853962253

Come for the Eagles fan feeding frenzy, stay for him calling the fans a bunch of idiots.  

:headbang:

Expand  

Gregory House reacts....

On the plus side, just think of how many more people now know who this guy is and he has a youtube radio show.

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2 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

On the plus side, just think of how many more people now know who this guy is and he has a youtube radio show.

Yep. And if listening to bad takes is your thing, be sure to bang the "Subscribe" button below! :lol:

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9 minutes ago, travdogg said:

Its crazy to me that in today's media climate, where even the smallest story will get days/weeks of consistent coverage, that in 6 months we have basically zero hard evidence having been made public. I know its not encouraged by legal teams to disclose info to the public on either side, but it also never remains this quiet for this long, especially with this many people involved. 

 

I am curious, what hard evidence do you want in a sexual harassment/assault case like this? If Deshaun did rub his penis on a majority of the women, which is what they are asserting, what evidence will there be other than her word that he did it? Is there such a thing as a penis print, and if so are they unique to each person? And did they dust for penis prints?

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2 minutes ago, dhockster said:

 

I am curious, what hard evidence do you want in a sexual harassment/assault case like this? If Deshaun did rub his penis on a majority of the women, which is what they are asserting, what evidence will there be other than her word that he did it? Is there such a thing as a penis print, and if so are they unique to each person? And did they dust for penis prints?

In my best Peter Griffin playing Han Solo voice...don't get all penisy on me kid 

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13 minutes ago, dhockster said:

 

I am curious, what hard evidence do you want in a sexual harassment/assault case like this? If Deshaun did rub his penis on a majority of the women, which is what they are asserting, what evidence will there be other than her word that he did it? Is there such a thing as a penis print, and if so are they unique to each person? And did they dust for penis prints?

 

I cringe even writing this, but if there was any discharge of pre-ejaculate, which frequently happens during frottage-like activities, and it was captured, that would be DNA right there.

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  • Faust changed the title to QB Deshaun Watson, HOU

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