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Dynasty & Redraft: QB Carson Wentz, Colts

Faust

By Faust,
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JohnnyU

I'm not sure they would draft a QB, but I also think that if drafting Hurts ruined Wentz's confidence, that doesn't say much for Wentz's mental strength.  I also think Hurts looked good and it wouldn'

foxco

I think he instantly becomes a top 32 QB.

JetMaxx

Are you new here?

squistion

squistion 12,632

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, zftcg said:

Hate to be Debbie Downer but "concerned he tore ACL" generally means "we know he did but won't officially announce it until after the MRI tomorrow".

Ian Rapoport‏ @RapSheet 4m4 minutes ago

The #Eagles believe QB Carson Wentz injured his ACL today vs #Rams, but initial tests don’t definitively show a complete tear, sources say. MRI tomorrow will tell the story. They’re not giving up hope.

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lod001

lod001 5,407

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1 minute ago, squistion said:

Ian Rapoport‏ @RapSheet 4m4 minutes ago

The #Eagles believe QB Carson Wentz injured his ACL today vs #Rams, but initial tests don’t definitively show a complete tear, sources say. MRI tomorrow will tell the story. They’re not giving up hope.

Put a brace on it, don't run, just pass and let's go eat some W's!!!!!!!

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zftcg

zftcg 3,688

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23 minutes ago, squistion said:

Ian Rapoport‏ @RapSheet 4m4 minutes ago

The #Eagles believe QB Carson Wentz injured his ACL today vs #Rams, but initial tests don’t definitively show a complete tear, sources say. MRI tomorrow will tell the story. They’re not giving up hope.

Isn't this what happened to Tannehill last year? If so, not an encouraging precedent.

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zftcg

zftcg 3,688

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, GoBirds said:

Remind me the outcome there?

Got hurt around the same point in the season. They didn't rule him out for the season, but he never came back. This preseason he reinjured it and ended up needing surgery.

The other partial ACL tear I remember was Breshad Perriman at the beginning of last year (or was it 2015?) I don't think he reinjured it, but he didn't do much on the field either, which may have been more a function of not being that good.

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zftcg

zftcg 3,688

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42 minutes ago, Aznflyer14 said:

I hope Wentz doesn't pull a gutsy decision like Philip Rivers did during 2008 AFC Championship game vs. Patriots. 

Dr. Jene weighed in on this:

Quote

Rivers: Strong stabilizing muscles surrounding knee, brace to provide some support, willingness to risk further injury, game-to-game scenario all likely contributing factors. Highly unlikely Wentz would risk playing multiple weeks w/ unstable knee.

Eagles have three more regular season games, plus three potential playoff games. Hard to imagine risking your franchise QB over that long a timeframe.

Better reference point might be RG3.

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renesauz

renesauz 3,055

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13 hours ago, GoBirds said:

I thought the bounce back time was alot quicker, what are we reasonably looking at? If you got him at good value you probably still keep don't you think?

He should be ready by the start of next season, assuming it is a full tear and he's done. He's a QB, not a RB, and recovery time for RB's and WR's is 9 months nowadays. He'll miss most of camp though

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renesauz

renesauz 3,055

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11 hours ago, zftcg said:

Got hurt around the same point in the season. They didn't rule him out for the season, but he never came back. This preseason he reinjured it and ended up needing surgery.

The other partial ACL tear I remember was Breshad Perriman at the beginning of last year (or was it 2015?) I don't think he reinjured it, but he didn't do much on the field either, which may have been more a function of not being that good.

Plenty of people have played without an ACL, some for their entire careers.

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Aznflyer14

Aznflyer14 119

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10 hours ago, zftcg said:

Dr. Jene weighed in on this:

Eagles have three more regular season games, plus three potential playoff games. Hard to imagine risking your franchise QB over that long a timeframe.

Better reference point might be RG3.

Thanks for the link, which was very helpful.  I dont think RG3 is better reference point since he relied on his legs / athleticism and did not have a prior experience being pocket passer.  Hopefully, Wentz would learn to rely on his pocket passing skill with his head instead of legs.

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zamboni

zamboni 7,383

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2 minutes ago, Aznflyer14 said:

Hopefully, Wentz would learn to rely on his pocket passing skill with his head instead of legs.

Agreed, but from a fantasy standpoint, the extra value he gives with his legs is big. Would hate to see him markedly change his game.

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zftcg

zftcg 3,688

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10 minutes ago, Aznflyer14 said:

Thanks for the link, which was very helpful.  I dont think RG3 is better reference point since he relied on his legs / athleticism and did not have a prior experience being pocket passer.  Hopefully, Wentz would learn to rely on his pocket passing skill with his head instead of legs.

I just meant more in terms of they trotted him back out there after a knee injury for the sake of a playoff run, he reinjured it, and was never the same after. Yes, I think he is more skilled than RG3, and yes, he'd probably be better able to transition to a less mobile style. But if you're the Eagles debating whether to try to bring him back this year (and we don't even know if that is a possibility at this point), you have to be keeping what happened to RG3 in the back of your mind.

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Aznflyer14

Aznflyer14 119

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26 minutes ago, zftcg said:

I just meant more in terms of they trotted him back out there after a knee injury for the sake of a playoff run, he reinjured it, and was never the same after. Yes, I think he is more skilled than RG3, and yes, he'd probably be better able to transition to a less mobile style. But if you're the Eagles debating whether to try to bring him back this year (and we don't even know if that is a possibility at this point), you have to be keeping what happened to RG3 in the back of your mind.

I understand what you meant... And I like to think that Eagles are highly capable organization, smartly investing their roster for long haul.  I would expect them to treat Wentz with upmost care unlike Redskins who caved to RG3's begging to return to the game action despite with severe knee injury. 

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squistion

squistion 12,632

Posted
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7 minutes ago, zeeshan2 said:

Steve Wyche✔@wyche89

Eagles Coach Doug Pederson announces Wentz, torn ACL.

11:10 AM - Dec 11, 2017

Ian Rapoport‏ @RapSheet 9m

Eagles coach Doug Pederson says watching the film, they believe the ACL was torn before the contact. The step before the hit.

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Hot Sauce Guy

Hot Sauce Guy 9,209

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Posted

What a nightmare for the Eagles & their fans. Foles is a capable QB but he obviously isn’t Wentz.

Just a flukey play. 

On a personal note, as the #1 seed in my lone Wentz team, I very nearly traded my “backup” Russel Wilson several times. They say sometimes the best deals are the ones you don’t make. 

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zftcg

zftcg 3,688

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36 minutes ago, Aznflyer14 said:

I understand what you meant... And I like to think that Eagles are highly capable organization, smartly investing their roster for long haul.  I would expect them to treat Wentz with upmost care unlike Redskins who caved to RG3's begging to return to the game action despite with severe knee injury. 

Yeah, that was my point. I don't see them risking it (in part because they probably learned from RG3's example). Anyway, point is moot now that we know it's a full tear.

In retrospect, it's actually surprising that the Rivers story wasn't a bigger deal at the time. Maybe it was East Coast bias, maybe it was just because he escaped the game without further damage. Even when people talk about it now, it tends to be "Rivers is a f###ing warrior", not "Rivers put the franchise's future at risk". (To be fair, I don't know the specifics of the situation. Dr. Jene's tweet indicates that the nature of his injury made it less risky.)

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zftcg

zftcg 3,688

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5 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

On a personal note, as the #1 seed in my lone Wentz team, I very nearly traded my “backup” Russel Wilson several times. They say sometimes the best deals are the ones you don’t make. 

As someone who turned down an offer of Rivers and Kamara for Wentz back in October, I rate this claim False, especially given that I may end up facing the Rivers/Kamara team in the finals .:wall:

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Hot Sauce Guy

Hot Sauce Guy 9,209

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1 minute ago, zftcg said:

As someone who turned down an offer of Rivers and Kamara for Wentz back in October, I rate this claim False, especially given that I may end up facing the Rivers/Kamara team in the finals .:wall:

Brutal. 

I did say “sometimes” :shrug:

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zftcg

zftcg 3,688

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, zamboni said:

Any indication yet on the extent of the tear and recovery period?

IANAD* but my sense of these things is that's usually a question that gets answered when they actually do the surgery and get a look at the extent of the damage.

 

 

* I am not a doctor ...

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Hot Sauce Guy

Hot Sauce Guy 9,209

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2 minutes ago, zamboni said:

Any indication yet on the extent of the tear and recovery period?

“Out for the season” so, yeah. No update specifying yet that I’ve seen though. 

Its only Dec 10, so he might be back in time for the regular season? Seems like he may miss a game or two but it’s typically a 9-12 month timeline. That said, there’s no report on the severity - but he didn’t look that bad. September seems very realistic. 

I’m absolutely targeting him as a HUGE draft day value as a backup QB since the cloud of mystery around him will likely depress his value.  IMO there’s no better sleeper pick as a QB freefall next year. Massive upside as a middle round pick (8-10). Similar to his draft value this year actually. For an MVP candidate. :wub: 

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Hot Sauce Guy

Hot Sauce Guy 9,209

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2 minutes ago, zftcg said:

It's funny because you hear that cliche all the time. I guess it's true for the other guy. 

10000% true for me. At one point I countered with Wilson/Kwon Alexander (my LB4) for Mariotta/Dez

in about 2 hours i decided Dez wasn’t worth it and rescinded the offer. 

Had it been accepted I’d be stuck with Mariotta in the playoffs next week. :X

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zamboni

zamboni 7,383

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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Luck, Wentz, Watson hurt

Mariotta, Carr, Winston regressing

Boy does the NFL have a young QB problem.

Was thinking the same thing. This new crop coming in next year better hit it big or the league is going to face a lot of mediocrity as the star veteran QBs get another year older.

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bumpman

bumpman 96

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Well, it's a bummer day for me as a dynasty owner of both Wentz and Watson.  A little internet research pulled up this interesting tidbit:

 

"However, because their performance is less tied to lower body speed and explosiveness, 12 out of the 13 of NFL quarterbacks studied after ACL surgeries were able to resume playing at pre-injury levels."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/11/acl-injuries-sports-athletes-careers

I'm keeping my fingers crossed both these guys can come back and resume blowtorching the league.

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Hot Sauce Guy

Hot Sauce Guy 9,209

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11 minutes ago, bumpman said:

Well, it's a bummer day for me as a dynasty owner of both Wentz and Watson.  A little internet research pulled up this interesting tidbit:

 

"However, because their performance is less tied to lower body speed and explosiveness, 12 out of the 13 of NFL quarterbacks studied after ACL surgeries were able to resume playing at pre-injury levels."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/11/acl-injuries-sports-athletes-careers

I'm keeping my fingers crossed both these guys can come back and resume blowtorching the league.

Long term I don’t see anything for you to

be concerned with. 

The advances in this procedure have been incredible, for one thing.

For another, while Wentz is a “mobile” QB, the risk is far greater for Watson, who’s more like Russell Wilson (e.g. a rollout/scrambling QB) 

and even still, if RBs can come back in 12 months and look more or less the same, I don’t see why it would be as difficult for a QB. 

I’d bet Wentz misses the 2018 preseason & is ready for game 1 of the regular season - and doesn’t miss a beat.

Watson maybe comes back to form in 14-16 month. I think he’ll play well, but IMO he’s gonna need a little longer to get back the lateral quickness, or at least the confidence in trying to make those type of cuts. 

Either way, you’re stacked at QB.  Sucks for this season for sure. Enjoy your embarrassment of riches. lol

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zamboni

zamboni 7,383

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

 

I’d bet Wentz misses the 2018 preseason & is ready for game 1 of the regular season - and doesn’t miss a beat. 

Dr. Andrews is saying 9-12 months, so it’s very possible we don’t see Wentz behind center by the season opener.

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Shutout

Shutout 2,013

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15 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Long term I don’t see anything for you to

be concerned with. 

The advances in this procedure have been incredible, for one thing.

For another, while Wentz is a “mobile” QB, the risk is far greater for Watson, who’s more like Russell Wilson (e.g. a rollout/scrambling QB) 

and even still, if RBs can come back in 12 months and look more or less the same, I don’t see why it would be as difficult for a QB. 

I’d bet Wentz misses the 2018 preseason & is ready for game 1 of the regular season - and doesn’t miss a beat.

Watson maybe comes back to form in 14-16 month. I think he’ll play well, but IMO he’s gonna need a little longer to get back the lateral quickness, or at least the confidence in trying to make those type of cuts. 

Either way, you’re stacked at QB.  Sucks for this season for sure. Enjoy your embarrassment of riches. lol

The problem with QBs who tear an ACL in terms of getting back to pre-injury form is mental and not physical.  Physically, these guys are pros that know how to be regimented and dedicated to do what it takes to recover. Their support system, especially for a QB is top notch.  But it is that mental aspect of sticking that leading leg out there and planting it in a way it is exposed that seems to take QBs a while to get back.

Long term, I know these guys will be fine.  But I don't think it will come quickly. I think, realistically, you are looking at something like Week 4 or 5 before Wentz is ready to start and if they have an odd bye week, he may PUP the first 6 (if it makes sense for him to wait). But I think an injury to a QB this late in the season honestly means that it will probably be about Week 11 or 12 next year before we see him healthy and looking like what we came accustomed to this season. 

It's a shame for this year's Eagles. But it happens to every team; real or fantasy.  The Cardinals probably would have been a strong SB contender had David Johnson been healthy and played like he did last year and Carson Palmer been healthy. Its just the unfortunate reality of the sport.  

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DropKick

DropKick 1,132

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17 minutes ago, lod001 said:

I expect Wentz to have a Jerry Rice like timetable of 3.5 months.

Rice came back too quickly and got hurt in his first game back.  As I recall, he cracked his knee-cap which thins after the surgery.  At least, that's how they explained it back in the day.

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Doctor Detroit

Doctor Detroit 20,905

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2 hours ago, GoBirds said:

9-12 months, thought QB's can bounce back quicker?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=williamson_bill&id=3379779

That's the normal recovery time, he has to say that.  Wentz is young, in perfect shape, and plays a position that doesn't necessarily require hard cutting action and stress.  If he doesn't have setbacks, and ACL injuries are pretty cut and dried these days, he'll be a go for the season opener IMO. 

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GoBirds

GoBirds 10,356

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19 minutes ago, Doctor Detroit said:

That's the normal recovery time, he has to say that.  Wentz is young, in perfect shape, and plays a position that doesn't necessarily require hard cutting action and stress.  If he doesn't have setbacks, and ACL injuries are pretty cut and dried these days, he'll be a go for the season opener IMO. 

That’s what I was thinking, give the general timeframe and most likely talk about him ahead of schedule instead of “what’s wrong” if he takes longer than an optimistic range put out. At least that’s what I hope, but you're the Doc not me. 

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