Plus, he needs the money.Nomination for Kanye West here, guy is a genius and belongs in this conversation.
Plus, he needs the money.Nomination for Kanye West here, guy is a genius and belongs in this conversation.
How did you link YouTube1 minute ago, dschuler said:
There has never been a bigger hypocrite than Chuck Schumer. It's sad. Typical DC politics.
I'm no fan of Chuck, but it wasn't hypocritical. When he made that speech, there were 7 months left in Bush's presidency. There is a big difference between 7 and 11 months.
Why is this funny? You really don't see that 7 months might be a reasonable period to wait (though I would disagree) but that 11 isn't?
I agree with Christo.Why is this funny? You really don't see that 7 months might be a reasonable period to wait (though I would disagree) but that 11 isn't?
Fair enough. Do you agree that at SOME point it becomes reasonable to wait? For example I offered September. If Scalia died in September, is it reasonable to wait?I agree with Christo.
So you think if we wait four months, Chuck will agree that the Senate should not consider anyone that Obama nominates? If not, I don't see how Schumer isn't being hypocritical.I'm no fan of Chuck, but it wasn't hypocritical. When he made that speech, there were 7 months left in Bush's presidency.
OK. I think that's a little too absolutist for me.I think when a President nominates somebody, even if it's on his last day of office after his successor was elected several months ago, the Senate should consider the nomination and vote to confirm or reject on the nominee's merits.
I would understand (but disagree) if someone thought a President shouldn't nominate someone after his successor had already been elected. Until then, I don't think there's any good argument for tribalistic obstructionism.
I have no doubt that he WOULD be hypocritical, just saying he wasn't necessarily in that comment.So you think if we wait four months, Chuck will agree that the Senate should not consider anyone that Obama nominates? If not, I don't see how Schumer isn't being hypocritical.
They did?So basically, the Democrats did this exact same thing with Bush and the Republicans
One distinction, if people want to hear it, is that a Supreme Court Justice has not been held up to what has been proposed. The other instances, from what I have heard, have been Federal judge appointments, not Supreme Court justice nominations/confirmations.So basically, the Democrats did this exact same thing with Bush and the Republicans are doing turn about as 'fair play' in response this time. It's a joke to think the difference of 7 months vs 11 months is a factor. Both sides are being hypocritical, and with this appointment being more important than who gets elected President this coming term there is little-to-no hope in the GOP backing down with so much at stake.
tim, Schumer made those idiotic comments in July of 2007. There was still 18 months left in GWB's presidency.I'm no fan of Chuck, but it wasn't hypocritical. When he made that speech, there were 7 months left in Bush's presidency. There is a big difference between 7 and 11 months.
Don't get me wrong, I still disagree with Schumer. But as I pointed out on Saturday, there has to be SOME point during the last year of a Presidency when it's reasonable that the Senate should hold off. If, for example, Scalia had died in September of 2016, I don't think anybody would object to waiting. What the exact period is acceptable, I have no idea. But I do know that, at least IMO, we're not at that point.
Oops, you're right. For some reason I was thinking 2008. My bad. I take it back. Total hypocrite.tim, Schumer made those idiotic comments in July of 2007. There was still 18 months left in GWB's presidency.
Make no mistake, Chuck was being a partisan tool, and he's paying for it now. As he should.
It was actually kind of a wide spread topic, one that was discussed in many articles making the same point. Schumer was far from the one who originated that line of reasoning.What Schumer said was dumb and hypocritical but it was also irrelevant. No more vacancies occurred on the Supreme Court during Bush's term after he made those remarks.
Regardless, using the words of one looney democrat to justify the whole Republican Party not even acknowledging an Obama nominee, let alone bringing them to a vote, is even more preposterous than the whole "let the people decide" argument.
Was not a widespread topic.It was actually kind of a wide spread topic, one that was discussed in many articles making the same point. Schumer was far from the one who originated that line of reasoning.
With all due respect, you are looking at it from your conservative side of things, so of course you don't like the potential shift left. A hypothetical comparison would have been Scalia still being on the Court and Ginsburg leaving for any reason. The Court would shift in a similar manner to what you said above, only it would shift in the opposite direction. I'm sure some people on the left would react like you and you would not react like you did if a potential shift was to the right.Whether you are for gun rights it gay rights, you should love how Libertarian this court was. Kennedy was the key figure balancing the 4 staunch conservative and 4 rabbid liberals with a viewpoint which usually favored the individual rights and keeping the government in check.
Kennedy was an opponent of expansion of executive powers to include legislating laws. You may agree with Obama on some of his changes in immigration and Climate change, but to allow the President to simply write laws and enforce them is a dangerous precedent.
i really see an ugly shift to the court occuring where the collective good will trump the individual rights. A shift where the second amendment is no longer an individual right. A shift were free speech is subject to complicated campaign rules where even a blogger coukd run afoul of the law. A shift where property rights are no longer respected. A shift that is anti-business.
I really liked the Libertarian balance of this court and am not looking forward to a court which favors a progressive/liberal philosophy where equal outcomes trump equal treatment. The government really sucks at that.
With all due respect, you are looking at it from your conservative side of things, so of course you don't like the potential shift left. A hypothetical comparison would have been Scalia still being on the Court and Ginsburg leaving for any reason. The Court would shift in a similar manner to what you said above, only it would shift in the opposite direction. I'm sure some people on the left would react like you and you would not react like you did if a potential shift was to the right.
You call the potential shift "ugly". Someone on the left may call it beautiful. The opposite would probably occur in the above Ginsburg hypothetical. Neither is right or wrong.
What if Obama nominated a moderate?I think a shift either way would be ugly. We had the ideal balance and a shift either way is a bad deal for those who love individual freedoms. Big government is going to get bigger and more centralized and more concentrated in the executive branch. Yeah!
Everything about this post is wrong. From your depiction of the roles of the Justices to your characterization of the rulings and leanings of the Roberts Court. It would take 5000 words to correct all the wrong in this post.Whether you are for gun rights it gay rights, you should love how Libertarian this court was. Kennedy was the key figure balancing the 4 staunch conservative and 4 rabbid liberals with a viewpoint which usually favored the individual rights and keeping the government in check.
Kennedy was an opponent of expansion of executive powers to include legislating laws. You may agree with Obama on some of his changes in immigration and Climate change, but to allow the President to simply write laws and enforce them is a dangerous precedent.
i really see an ugly shift to the court occuring where the collective good will trump the individual rights. A shift where the second amendment is no longer an individual right. A shift were free speech is subject to complicated campaign rules where even a blogger coukd run afoul of the law. A shift where property rights are no longer respected. A shift that is anti-business.
I really liked the Libertarian balance of this court and am not looking forward to a court which favors a progressive/liberal philosophy where equal outcomes trump equal treatment. The government really sucks at that.
I think many if not most people would agree with my characterization. This court would have almost certainly would have gone against Obama's immigration and climate change policy, now they will likely go along with these laws which originated entirely in the executive branch either based on a 4-4 tie for a liberal-leaning circuit court to decide or a 5-4 ruling if an appointment is made and the case is re-heard. The campaign finance laws which were struck down by a 5-4 majority were much more far-reaching than just limiting Corporation speech, and those would likely to be upheld if the court shifts to one more liberal/progressive Justice. Some articles do not agree that Kennedy is a Libertarian, but many if not most seem to agree, such as publications by CATO, Georgetown, Reason Mag, and National Review to name a few. Many of the 5-4 rulings would be in jeopardy of being reversed assuming a case is brought to and accepted by the court. Some of those cases would involve property rights, gun rights, campaign finance/political speech, and executive orders.Everything about this post is wrong. From your depiction of the roles of the Justices to your characterization of the rulings and leanings of the Roberts Court. It would take 5000 words to correct all the wrong in this post.
Bump for jonI get what you're saying. And I agree with your advice at how the GOP should be handling the issue. But I can't agree that a vacancy that would shift the balance of the Court justifies doing everything in your power to stymie an otherwise qualified appointee from an opposition President. Let's say Cruz wins the presidency but the Dems regain the Senate in '18. Ginsburg passes away shortly thereafter. I see no justification whatsoever for the Dems to (1) refuse to consider Cruz's appointee and keep the appointee from going to hearing (which is their Constitutional obligation); (2) take the position that they will reject whatever nominee Cruz selects regardless of that person's qualifications; or (3) take the position that Cruz should not nominate a replacement, and instead let the 2020 election decide who makes the nomination. Would you actually support any of those positions in that instance?
What if Obama nominated a moderate?
I am 100% certain that the Dems would not allow Ginsburg to be replaced by a Conservative. The only way that would possibly happen if the GOP had a solid majority in the Senate and used the Reid's nuclear option to by-pass the filibuster.Bump for jon
Okay, but your response doesn't answer my question. I'll repost it.I am 100% certain that the Dems would not allow Ginsburg to be replaced by a Conservative. The only way that would possibly happen if the GOP had a solid majority in the Senate and used the Reid's nuclear option to by-pass the filibuster.
Actually, I would characterize their option as 3) we advise the President that is not a suitable nomination and we will filibuster if required. I would not 'support' the option, but I would understand their position and it would be up to the GOP to get the Senate to a point where they could overcome the Democrats. That is the reality and the GOP would have to live with it.Okay, but your response doesn't answer my question. I'll repost it.
I get what you're saying. And I agree with your advice at how the GOP should be handling the issue. But I can't agree that a vacancy that would shift the balance of the Court justifies doing everything in your power to stymie an otherwise qualified appointee from an opposition President. Let's say Cruz wins the presidency but the Dems regain the Senate in '18. Ginsburg passes away shortly thereafter. I see no justification whatsoever for the Dems to (1) refuse to consider Cruz's appointee and keep the appointee from going to hearing (which is their Constitutional obligation); (2) take the position that they will reject whatever nominee Cruz selects regardless of that person's qualifications; or (3) take the position that Cruz should not nominate a replacement, and instead let the 2020 election decide who makes the nomination. Would you actually support any of those positions in that instance?
Once again, that doesn't answer my question. I asked you about three specific positions and whether you would support any of those positions (each of which have been taken by GOP senators or presidential candidates in the current situation). I'm not asking you to prescribe the preferred approach. I'm asking whether you would support the three specific positions I outlined. Am I correct that your answer is "no"? Assuming your answer is no, would you see those positions as improper?Actually, I would characterize their option as 3) we advise the President that is not a suitable nomination and we will filibuster if required. I would not 'support' the option, but I would understand their position and it would be up to the GOP to get the Senate to a point where they could overcome the Democrats. That is the reality and the GOP would have to live with it.
My answer was I would accept that that is their position. I am not sure why my 'support' is an issue of a party I generally do not agree with. I am not going to support them, but I acknowledge those are positions they can take within the framework of the Constitution.Once again, that doesn't answer my question. I asked you about three specific positions and whether you would support any of those positions (each of which have been taken by GOP senators or presidential candidates in the current situation). I'm not asking you to prescribe the preferred approach. I'm asking whether you would support the three specific positions I outlined. Am I correct that your answer is "no"? Assuming your answer is no, would you see those positions as improper?
With all due respect, that is just ridiculous. By that logic, the party controlling the Senate could just refuse to ever bring an opposition President's Supreme Court nominee up for consideration. Ever. For the entirety of the President's term. And into perpetuity so long as the Senate and Executive branch are controlled by different parties. That you think that approach is consistent with the Senate's constitutional advice and consent obligation is frankly confounding.My answer was I would accept that that is their position. I am not sure why my 'support' is an issue of a party I generally do not agree with. I am not going to support them, but I acknowledge those are positions they can take within the framework of the Constitution.
It may be ridiculous, but that is reality. If there is going to be a shift in the court which will alter the direction of the court, you better have control of both the Senate and the White House. Otherwise it is not happening in today's environment. It really does not matter where they are at in their term.With all due respect, that is just ridiculous. By that logic, the party controlling the Senate could just refuse to ever bring an opposition President's Supreme Court nominee up for consideration. Ever. For the entirety of the President's term. And into perpetuity so long as the Senate and Executive branch are controlled by different parties. That you think that approach is consistent with the Senate's constitutional advice and consent obligation is frankly confounding.
Similarly, the Senate taking the position in advance that they will reject whatever nominee the President puts forward, without even knowing the identity of that nominee, is also inconsistent with their constitutional duties.
Finally, taking the position that the President should defer making a nomination for two years (under my hypothetical) on the grounds that the next election should determine who makes the nomination is an absurd denial of the fact that it is the outcome of the prior election that has determined who should make the nomination.
No. The President needs to nominate someone and the Senate needs to do their job. Unless there is a clause in the Constitution that says parts of Article II are only in effect in non election years, and when the moon is in a certain stage, or when there is a certain party in one branch of government that isn't allied with a certain party in another branch of government of if the Justice that is being replaced was of one pursuasion, or a myriad of other qualifiers.timschochet said:Fair enough. Do you agree that at SOME point it becomes reasonable to wait? For example I offered September. If Scalia died in September, is it reasonable to wait?
No the Democrats didn't do this. Schumer argued to ACS that the Democrats should do this. The Democrats may or may not have done it had another vacancy opened up (I doubt it, but it's possible). It didn't. What we do know is that Roberts and Alito were confirmed. Not without a confirmation fight, but they were confirmed (and the Democrats didn't torpedo Miers, Republicans did).Pots said:So basically, the Democrats did this exact same thing with Bush and the Republicans are doing turn about as 'fair play' in response this time. It's a joke to think the difference of 7 months vs 11 months is a factor. Both sides are being hypocritical, and with this appointment being more important than who gets elected President this coming term there is little-to-no hope in the GOP backing down with so much at stake.