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​ 🏛️ ​Official Supreme Court nomination thread - Amy Coney Barrett


Sinn Fein

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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

There is some non-zero number of judges who will end up doing blatantly improper things like accepting bribes or taking orders from a cult. But the base rate is like 0.02% or whatever, right? And it's the same for everybody a priori, which is what makes it a base rate. To raise concerns about any particular judge, you need specific evidence driving those concerns, IMO.

I'm not saying not to ask her questions about stuff. Ask if she'll take bribes. Ask if she'll let her husband secretly write her opinions. Senators may ask whatever they want. Some of the questions might seem crazy to many people but non-crazy to many others -- exactly like questions about Biden being controlled by AOC.

I'll take a PM.  Asking for a friend.

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I think abortion and capital punishment are rather different for purposes of recusal.

With abortion, in a constitutional context, a judge isn't deciding whether abortion is good or bad. She's determining the content and scope of constitutionally protected individual rights, express or implied, and how they interact with a state's inherent police powers.

The same would be true when considering the constitutionality of the death penalty under the Eighth Amendment as a general matter.

But actually ordering someone's death seems far different. Recusing in that last situation, but not in the first two, seems reasonable to me.

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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I think abortion and capital punishment are rather different for purposes of recusal.

With abortion, in a constitutional context, a judge isn't deciding whether abortion is good or bad. She's determining the content and scope of constitutionally protected individual rights, express or implied, and how they interact with a state's inherent police powers.

The same would be true when considering the constitutionality of the death penalty under the Eighth Amendment as a general matter.

But actually ordering someone's death seems far different. Recusing in that last situation, but not in the first two, seems reasonable to me.

With abortion, in a case or controversy legal system, a justice will be called on to determine if a woman is allowed to get an abortion or whether lots of women will be allowed to get an abortion.  Same with the constitutionality of capital punishment - it will be decided in the context of whether a particular person may be put to death.

Determining constitutionality will decide individuals' rights.  If she doesn't understand that I have much bigger issues with her appointment.

Edited by Henry Ford
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53 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

With abortion, in a case or controversy legal system, a justice will be called on to determine if a woman is allowed to get an abortion or whether lots of women will be allowed to get an abortion.  Same with the constitutionality of capital punishment - it will be decided in the context of whether a particular person may be put to death.

Determining constitutionality will decide individuals' rights.  If she doesn't understand that I have much bigger issues with her appointment.

There's an obvious (to me) difference between the following two questions:

1. Does capital punishment run afoul of the Eighth Amendment under a proper constitutional analysis?

2. Now that this defendant has been convicted by the jury, it is up to me to finally determine the appropriate sentence after weighing the various mitigating and aggravating circumstances -- should it be death or something else?

I don't know whether the second situation was the intended context for ACB's quotation above (and I'm aware it's now mooted by Hurst). But it is quite easy for me to imagine being able to put aside my personal views and decide issue #1 fairly while being unable to do so with issue #2.

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Some of you guys really need to meet some religious people sometime.

I tell my Christian friends frequently they have no idea how much of the country sees us.

And for sure, much of it is earned and we don't do ourselves a lot of favors many times. Shame on us. But I'll also say tons of the negative perception doesn't match the reality of what I've seen and experienced personally. 

However we got there, it breaks my heart to see how many folks see us. 

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19 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I tell my Christian friends frequently they have no idea how much of the country sees us.

And for sure, much of it is earned and we don't do ourselves a lot of favors many times. Shame on us. But I'll also say tons of the negative perception doesn't match the reality of what I've seen and experienced personally. 

However we got there, it breaks my heart to see how many folks see us. 

Bigotry reaches far beyond skin color.

Edited by Da Guru
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6 hours ago, BobbyLayne said:

@Henry Ford @Sinn Fein @anyone

 

There's no hope here, right? There is nothing the Democrats can do to stop this nomination, correct? 

Which means Obamacare and preexisting conditions dies in approximately 6-7 weeks?

Idaho and two other states had preexisting laws before Obama Care.   It's not an Obama care thing.

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

I tell my Christian friends frequently they have no idea how much of the country sees us.

And for sure, much of it is earned and we don't do ourselves a lot of favors many times. Shame on us. But I'll also say tons of the negative perception doesn't match the reality of what I've seen and experienced personally. 

However we got there, it breaks my heart to see how many folks see us. 

You think Christians are looked at less favorably than other religious groups?

Imagine how folks see Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Bahai, etc. I guarantee that the negative perception of Christians pales in comparison to the treatment of those groups. 

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

I tell my Christian friends frequently they have no idea how much of the country sees us.

And for sure, much of it is earned and we don't do ourselves a lot of favors many times. Shame on us. But I'll also say tons of the negative perception doesn't match the reality of what I've seen and experienced personally. 

However we got there, it breaks my heart to see how many folks see us. 

Jesus said, “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35)

If only we could get that one thing right.

How do people outside the faith view Christians? As dogmatic, unbending, closed minded, as hypocrites, as charlatans (equating certain televangelists with following Christ), as people who don’t know how to have fun, et al.

Its a complete perversion of what it means to love Jesus and be His follower. But tbh I’m not sure how we achieve altering how others view believers.

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51 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Jesus said, “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35)

If only we could get that one thing right.

How do people outside the faith view Christians? As dogmatic, unbending, closed minded, as hypocrites, as charlatans (equating certain televangelists with following Christ), as people who don’t know how to have fun, et al.

Its a complete perversion of what it means to love Jesus and be His follower. But tbh I’m not sure how we achieve altering how others view believers.

The Beatitudes  - 

Matthew 5:3–12

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

The problem is, IMO, that many Christians are more concerned with being Republicans than they are with being Christ followers.  Be humble, be kind, love others.  It’s kind of hard to take someone serious when they claim to believe all of the things above but then will vote for Trump.

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

The Beatitudes  - 

Matthew 5:3–12

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

The problem is, IMO, that many Christians are more concerned with being Republicans than they are with being Christ followers.  Be humble, be kind, love others.  It’s kind of hard to take someone serious when they claim to believe all of the things above but then will vote for Trump.

Yeah, I received some awesome DMs this summer.

:shrug: 

I stopped trying.

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7 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

The Beatitudes  - 

Matthew 5:3–12

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

The problem is, IMO, that many Christians are more concerned with being Republicans than they are with being Christ followers.  Be humble, be kind, love others.  It’s kind of hard to take someone serious when they claim to believe all of the things above but then will vote for Trump.

They are voting for the party that supports their views.  Don't confuse Christians with diehard Trump supporters.

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3 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

They are voting for the party that supports their views.  Don't confuse Christians with diehard Trump supporters.

My position is no one should call themself a Christian and vote for that man.  They shouldn’t be so devoted to a political party that they will sell their soul by casting a vote for him.  I totally understand many don’t share that position. 

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8 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

My position is no one should call themself a Christian and vote for that man.  They shouldn’t be so devoted to a political party that they will sell their soul by casting a vote for him.  I totally understand many don’t share that position. 

That's the second time I've read that Trump supporters have "sold their souls" today.  Amazing.

I have a hard time believing Catholics or Mormons or fundamentalist Christians not voting Republican considering the alternatives.  

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14 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

And make no mistake - there’s a lot of Trump supporters who consider themselves Christians - no clue what the numbers are but my guess is over 50% and probably 70-80%+.  

IDK about that, but back home (West Michigan) it’s a solid block. Far more divided in NYC amongst believers.

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1 hour ago, BobbyLayne said:

Jesus said, “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35)

If only we could get that one thing right.

How do people outside the faith view Christians? As dogmatic, unbending, closed minded, as hypocrites, as charlatans (equating certain televangelists with following Christ), as people who don’t know how to have fun, et al.

Its a complete perversion of what it means to love Jesus and be His follower. But tbh I’m not sure how we achieve altering how others view believers.

The most frustrating thing about Christians is that they are human.

The words above are easy for humans to nod in agreement with, but very difficult to live by.

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6 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I don’t really know either and that’s why I left it as a wide range.  If 50%+ of his voters aren’t self-identifying as Christian then I’ll eat my hat.

It's higher than that. About 70% of adults in the United States identify as Christian, and I think it's pretty obvious that Trump supporters are more likely than others to identify that way.

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4 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

 

4 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

I don’t really know either and that’s why I left it as a wide range.  If 50%+ of his voters aren’t self-identifying as Christian then I’ll eat my hat.

It's higher than that. About 70% of adults in the United States identify as Christian, and I think it's pretty obvious that Trump supporters are more likely than others to identify that way.

Pew Research Center says it’s down to 65% (2018-19 data) and dropping. Of those, 37% attend services a few times a year, another 18% go to church about once a month.

Anyway, interesting data. I live in one of the “least churched” cities in the country and didn’t realize how low the atheist and agnostic numbers are in the U.S.; I would have guessed much higher.

Huge differences amongst millennials, which is again interesting and at odds with my own personal experience. I go to a very large non-denominational church where the demo is predominantly 35 and under.

Edited by BobbyLayne
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10 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

The problem is, IMO, that many Christians are more concerned with being Republicans than they are with being Christ followers.  

Thanks @AAABatteries For me, the question is defining the bolded. My hope and prayer is it's a lot more like "Some" Christians are more concerned...

That's how I see it among my Christian friends. But I also know some that do appear to put too much emphasis on politics. I know it's not especially satisfying, but I thought the article I posted earlier hits on this pretty well. https://relevantmagazine.com/current/what-is-the-christian-posture-for-the-upcoming-election/

And I do think we over complicate it sometimes. 

As Christians, if we believe scripture, Jesus told us pretty clearly what we're supposed to do. Love God. And just as importantly, love your neighbor. 

Matthew 22:36-40 NLT

Quote

 

36 “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”

37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

 

 

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And not to turn this into Sunday School, but there's a bit more that I think is super important. 

The story about Jesus being asked what's the most important commandment is one of those stories that's repeated in another book of the bible. The instance above is from Matthew. The book of Luke also recounts his version of the story. 

Luke 10:25-28 NLT

Quote

 

25 One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: “Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 Jesus replied, “What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?”

27 The man answered, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”[c]

28 “Right!” Jesus told him. “Do this and you will live!”

 

 

Here's where it's important to us. When Jesus says "Love your neighbor", the obvious question is "Who is your neighbor?" And that's just what the guy asked Jesus. The next verse:

Quote

29 The man wanted to justify his actions, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

 

Jesus lots of times used an example to give an answer. He did that this time.

Luke 10:30-37 NLT

Parable of the Good Samaritan

Quote

 

30 Jesus replied with a story: “A Jewish man was traveling from Jerusalem down to Jericho, and he was attacked by bandits. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him up, and left him half dead beside the road.

31 “By chance a priest came along. But when he saw the man lying there, he crossed to the other side of the road and passed him by. 32 A Temple assistant[d] walked over and looked at him lying there, but he also passed by on the other side.

33 “Then a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. 34 Going over to him, the Samaritan soothed his wounds with olive oil and wine and bandaged them. Then he put the man on his own donkey and took him to an inn, where he took care of him. 35 The next day he handed the innkeeper two silver coins,[e] telling him, ‘Take care of this man. If his bill runs higher than this, I’ll pay you the next time I’m here.’

36 “Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?” Jesus asked.

37 The man replied, “The one who showed him mercy.”

Then Jesus said, “Yes, now go and do the same.”

 

 

It's important to know here that for a Jewish person, a Samaritan was not "on their team". For a Jewish person, a Samaritan was most definitely "the other". 

What Jesus was saying here is he wants his followers to love everyone. Not just the people who think like us, look like us, sound like us.

Jesus was saying in effect, "Everyone is your neighbor". Now he was not saying, "It's all good, everything goes." You can love someone and not agree with them. 

I know people tire of me being critical of the sniping and fighting here and much of that is I hate seeing us demean and not be cool to "the other". 

Sunday School over. Time for juice and graham crackers. ;) 

Edited by Joe Bryant
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12 hours ago, BobbyLayne said:

Jesus said, “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35)

If only we could get that one thing right.

How do people outside the faith view Christians? As dogmatic, unbending, closed minded, as hypocrites, as charlatans (equating certain televangelists with following Christ), as people who don’t know how to have fun, et al.

Its a complete perversion of what it means to love Jesus and be His follower. But tbh I’m not sure how we achieve altering how others view believers.

Through our actions...plain and simple.  And even then, that won't work for those who don't WANT to change how they view us.  The challenge in that is being able to go to bed every night and feeling confident that you've done the best you could, that day, to mirror Jesus' actions and teachings.  Reality is, we're probably going to fail a lot more than we succeed in that arena, but on the good days where we're doing it correctly people have no choice but to recognize "hey, there's something different about him/her".  That's where it starts.  

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4 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Through our actions...plain and simple.  And even then, that won't work for those who don't WANT to change how they view us.  The challenge in that is being able to go to bed every night and feeling confident that you've done the best you could, that day, to mirror Jesus' actions and teachings.  Reality is, we're probably going to fail a lot more than we succeed in that arena, but on the good days where we're doing it correctly people have no choice but to recognize "hey, there's something different about him/her".  That's where it starts.  

:goodposting:Thanks @The Commish

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From what I have been told and learned in my life is that there is  a difference between Catholics and Christians.  The Catholics I know never really have talked about their faith very much.  The Christians I have known talked about it much more and actually tried to convert me, but they all associate and mingle.  The Jews and Muslims have never tried to convert me.

 

Edited by Summer Wheat
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2 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

From what I have been told and learned in my life is that there is  a difference between Catholics and Christians.  The Catholics I know never really have talked about their faith very much.  The Christians I have known talked about it much more and actually tried to convert me.

 

Catholics are Christians

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Agreed @sho nuff

The "are Catholics really Christians" is a thread that might be interesting for some to run down. It's not for me as it deflects from the bigger picture discussion on this which I think is important. @Summer Wheat Please start a new thread if you want on that but let's keep this one more on track. 

Edited by Joe Bryant
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19 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

At least on Easter and Christmas. 

I have a couple nephews who teach at Jesuit schools and they turned my opinion on Catholics in general. Interestingly, a lot of the pastors in my (Pentecostal) church enjoy reading Catholic authors.

I grew up basically believing Catholics only existed to stoke the fires of hell. I evolved. 

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7 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

I have a couple nephews who teach at Jesuit schools and they turned my opinion on Catholics in general. Interestingly, a lot of the pastors in my (Pentecostal) church enjoy reading Catholic authors.

I grew up basically believing Catholics only existed to stoke the fires of hell. I evolved. 

I grew up thinking everyone was Catholic or Lutheran (til I then realized my step mom and then my dad went to a Methodist Church).  Didn't really know Baptists existed til I moved to Tennessee as a 15 year old...and was questioned if I believed in Christ after I told someone i was Catholic.

Anyway...none of which has much to do with the thread.  Just a little sticking point I have when people try and separate Catholic and Christian.  Its like...who do people think we are referring to when we do the sign of the cross.  Some other Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

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5 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

I grew up thinking everyone was Catholic or Lutheran (til I then realized my step mom and then my dad went to a Methodist Church).  Didn't really know Baptists existed til I moved to Tennessee as a 15 year old...and was questioned if I believed in Christ after I told someone i was Catholic.

Anyway...none of which has much to do with the thread.  Just a little sticking point I have when people try and separate Catholic and Christian.  Its like...who do people think we are referring to when we do the sign of the cross.  Some other Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

True, we should hop off this rabbit trail. @Joe Bryant made mention of another thread discussion but I wasn’t able to find it.

I consider Catholics to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. Everyone back home in west Michigan (Reformed Church of America and Christian Reformed denominations are both HQed there) would sharply disagree.

I think it’s important to not major in minors. Would highly recommend the Netflix documentary American Gospel: Christ Alone.

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In general, along with discussing politics, I dislike discussing religion even more.  I hate how married the two have become with one another.  And, while I might be mistaken, the biggest reason for that is the entire pro-life vs. pro-choice stance.  For many, many Christians, it's the single biggest issue that determines who they vote for.  And the reason I have such a big problem with it, even though I understand why they are choosing how they choose, is summed in in the following quote almost 20 years ago from a Benedictine Nun:

"I do not believe that just because you are opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, a child educated, a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."

For me, claiming to be pro-life/anti-abortion yet still endorsing policies that don't support families, education, and generally "pro-life" things for people who are actually living on the planet and in need is a hypocritical stance to take.  So when those politicians/lawmakers who are Christian are supporting policies such as separating families through deportation or denying healthcare to those who need it the most or any other number of things that generally don't jive with the true idea of "pro-life" are the ones that Christians are voting in, I similarly have a hard time believing they are truly following Christian ideals in being pro-life.  I find it to be the exact opposite.

ETA -- Here's a link to her quote and further comments on it

Edited by gianmarco
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Seems normal:

AP report on People of Praise

The AP interviewed seven current and former members of People of Praise, and reviewed its tax records, websites, missionary blogs and back issues of its magazine to try to paint a fuller picture of an organization that Barrett has been deeply involved in since childhood.

***

 

The AP also reviewed 15 years of back issues of the organization’s internal magazine, Vine and Branches, which has published birth announcements, photos and other mentions of Barrett and her husband, Jesse, whose family has been active in the group for four decades. On Friday, all editions of the magazine were removed from the group’s website.

Edited by Sinn Fein
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7 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Seems normal:

AP report on People of Praise

The AP interviewed seven current and former members of People of Praise, and reviewed its tax records, websites, missionary blogs and back issues of its magazine to try to paint a fuller picture of an organization that Barrett has been deeply involved in since childhood.

***

 

The AP also reviewed 15 years of back issues of the organization’s internal magazine, Vine and Branches, which has published birth announcements, photos and other mentions of Barrett and her husband, Jesse, whose family has been active in the group for four decades. On Friday, all editions of the magazine were removed from the group’s website.

Maybe didn’t want to dox other members of People of Praise?

:shrug:

She’s a public figure, but if I belonged to them I could see being a little concerned about being targeted. Am I wrong?

It’s a pretty small sect, right? Like 7K members or so? 

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3 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Maybe - seems more like a non-traditional sect that does not want scrutiny that comes with a SC nominee being a member.

Could be. They're definitely a bit different, I was unaware of their existence until she was a potential nominee.

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5 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Could be. They're definitely a bit different, I was unaware of their existence until she was a potential nominee.

A couple of things deserve further investigation - imo: How involved is she in the group?  And, how involved are the group into members lives?

 

A couple of things that sort of stood out to me - she has been around the group since childhood, and she moved to South Bend - where the group was formed.  That suggests a potential for indoctrination - without more.  Certainly going to Notre Dame is a good reason to move to South Bend - but it seems odd, given the connection to People of Praise.

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1 minute ago, Summer Wheat said:

A little puzzled at why ACB being Catholic is an issue. 

Joe Biden is Catholic and he might be the next POTUS.  Nancy Pelosi is Catholic, AOC is Catholic, Sonia Sotomayor is Catholic. Lots of Catholics in politics.

I *think* the issue is with People of Praise not the Roman Catholic Church.

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52 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

A couple of things deserve further investigation - imo: How involved is she in the group?  And, how involved are the group into members lives?

 

A couple of things that sort of stood out to me - she has been around the group since childhood, and she moved to South Bend - where the group was formed.  That suggests a potential for indoctrination - without more.  Certainly going to Notre Dame is a good reason to move to South Bend - but it seems odd, given the connection to People of Praise.

I’ve tried to learn more about then (preferably stuff written before ACB became a judge) and have come up empty. They’re minuscule it’s not even on anyone’s radar.

For instance, if you Googled my church or my pastor you find tons of material. We could have a dialogue. But with People of Praise I feel like everything I’ve read is looking through the handmaiden prism.

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24 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

I’ve tried to learn more about then (preferably stuff written before ACB became a judge) and have come up empty. They’re minuscule it’s not even on anyone’s radar.

For instance, if you Googled my church or my pastor you find tons of material. We could have a dialogue. But with People of Praise I feel like everything I’ve read is looking through the handmaiden prism.

I'ma ask my buddy whose family was in it back in the day.

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1 hour ago, BobbyLayne said:

I *think* the issue is with People of Praise not the Roman Catholic Church.

The charismatic movement in the Catholic Church is fairly widespread.  It's not a majority or anything but I venture to guess that every diocese has charismatic groups, Life in the Spirit seminars, healing masses, etc.  Not a big deal imo, or fringe.

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