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Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (10 Viewers)

NCCommish said:
Even bigger will be what American companies and individuals are named, who they are tied to and who got money from them. Any ties to the Clinton foundation would be bad, real bad.
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I think the no 1 country to give to Clinton foundataion or global initiative is Ukraine

 
dfsguy said:
Serious question - for the Sanders supporters - how many think he really wants to be president?
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I think he did not originally.  I think he just wanted to get his message out.  At some point, I think he reached a tipping point, where he thinks he should be president.  I don't know when exactly, but I suspect it had to do with all of the individual donations he was getting - that upped the ante so to speak.  But, I think when he realized how many people were investing in his message, the goal to see this through became more concrete.

 
timschochet said:
That's true. And maybe this one is bad. Guess we'll find out more about it. 

But it gets awfully tiresome to hear the same people over and over praise Bernie for being some kind of prescient genius when in fact he's against every free trade deal. He's also opposed to nearly every use of American military force. And he opposed TARP which would have been disastrous had it failed. 

IMO, Bernie Sanders lacks the judgment to be a President because nearly every major vote he has ever taken as a senator has been ideologically based. To me that shows a lack of independent thinking. Hillary is right some of the time, wrong some of the time, but she is realistic, pragmatic, and thinks for herself. 
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He's backed more use of military force than I like. dont really want to spend time providing links that argue against my candidate of choice. Supported overthrow of saddam, aumf(whatever that authorization after 9/11  is called) funds wars(although rare, Ron Paul/kuccinich) voted against funding wars they didn't approve of) not wanting to try and overthrow Syrian government while you bomb #### out of Isis doesn't exactly make u a dove 

 
dfsguy said:
Serious question - for the Sanders supporters - how many think he really wants to be president?
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Here's what dfsguy said in the Trump thread 30 minutes ago after the very same question was asked there about Trump: "People on the Trump side, you realize this is another manipulation attack on Trump right? Make it seem like Trump doesn't really want it so you don't vote for him. This is basic stuff."

Funny.

 
timschochet said:
That's true. And maybe this one is bad. Guess we'll find out more about it. 

But it gets awfully tiresome to hear the same people over and over praise Bernie for being some kind of prescient genius when in fact he's against every free trade deal. He's also opposed to nearly every use of American military force. And he opposed TARP which would have been disastrous had it failed. 

IMO, Bernie Sanders lacks the judgment to be a President because nearly every major vote he has ever taken as a senator has been ideologically based. To me that shows a lack of independent thinking. Hillary is right some of the time, wrong some of the time, but she is realistic, pragmatic, and thinks for herself. 
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You realize votes are binary, right? You have to vote yes or no and can't go off the board for another choice. Given that reality, of course Bernie votes with the side that is closest to his own deeply held beliefs- the kind of bedrock principles about which Hillary has no clue. 

 
Higgs said:
Sparks?   :lmao: . Yeah right.  Maybe Bernie won't say "With all due respect" before one of his answers.
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Heaven forfend that two Presidential candidates should treat each other with some modicum of respect. The contentiousness between the campaigns has been ratcheting up noticeably the last few weeks. HRC has been pretty direct in her peevishness with the Sanders campaign pointing out points of differentiation which cast her in a bad light. I think some of that will find its way into this debate. But if you're looking for innuendo about who's got the better genitalia then, sure, you'll be disappointed.

 
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Gr00vus said:
Heaven forfend that two Presidential candidates should treat each other with some modicum of respect. The contentiousness between the campaigns has been ratcheting up noticeably the last few weeks. HRC has been pretty direct in her peevishness with the Sanders campaign pointing out the ways their points of differentiation which cast her in a bad light. I think some of that will find its way into this debate. But if you're looking for innuendo about who's got the better genitalia then, sure, you'll be disappointed.
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Gr00vus said:
Please don't feed the trolls bernmigos.
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Point taken, but I thought it worthwhile to point out that candidates can have a heated competition without losing respect for each other and/or resorting to a 5th grade level of discourse.

 
Gr00vus said:
Heaven forfend that two Presidential candidates should treat each other with some modicum of respect. The contentiousness between the campaigns has been ratcheting up noticeably the last few weeks. HRC has been pretty direct in her peevishness with the Sanders campaign pointing out points of differentiation which cast her in a bad light. I think some of that will find its way into this debate. But if you're looking for innuendo about who's got the better genitalia then, sure, you'll be disappointed.
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Well the answer to that is obvious - Billy Boy.

Sanders is completely sackless for not even questioning Hillary about the email scandal.  It smacks of cronyism or weakness, not sure which one.

 
The_Man said:
Here's Bernie's speech from Oct. 12, 2011 on the Panama deal. It is unbelievable how time after time after time, he has been on the right side of issues.

  Finally, Mr. President, let's talk about the Panama Free Trade Agreement.

          Panama's entire annual economic output is only $26.7 billion a year, or about two-tenths of one percent of the U.S. economy.  No-one can legitimately make the claim that approving this free trade agreement will significantly increase American jobs.

          Then, why would we be considering a stand-alone free trade agreement with this country?

          Well, it turns out that Panama is a world leader when it comes to allowing wealthy Americans and large corporations to evade U.S. taxes by stashing their cash in off-shore tax havens.  And, the Panama Free Trade Agreement would make this bad situation much worse. 

          Each and every year, the wealthy and large corporations evade $100 billion in U.S. taxes through abusive and illegal offshore tax havens in Panama and other countries.

          According to Citizens for Tax Justice, "A tax haven . . . has one of three characteristics: It has no income tax or a very low-rate income tax; it has bank secrecy laws; and it has a history of non-cooperation with other countries on exchanging information about tax matters.  Panama has all three of those. ... They're probably the worst."

          Mr. President, the trade agreement with Panama would effectively bar the U.S. from cracking down on illegal and abusive offshore tax havens in Panama.  In fact, combating tax haven abuse in Panama would be a violation of this free trade agreement, exposing the U.S. to fines from international authorities.

          In 2008, the Government Accountability Office said that 17 of the 100 largest American companies were operating a total of 42 subsidiaries in Panama.  This free trade agreement would make it easier for the wealthy and large corporations to avoid paying U.S. taxes and it must be defeated.  At a time when we have a record-breaking $14.7 trillion national debt and an unsustainable federal deficit, the last thing that we should be doing is making it easier for the wealthiest people and most profitable corporations in this country to avoid paying their fair share in taxes by setting-up offshore tax havens in Panama.
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Bernie's foresight is better than his opponents' hindsight

 
timschochet said:
That's true. And maybe this one is bad. Guess we'll find out more about it. 

But it gets awfully tiresome to hear the same people over and over praise Bernie for being some kind of prescient genius when in fact he's against every free trade deal. He's also opposed to nearly every use of American military force. And he opposed TARP which would have been disastrous had it failed. 

IMO, Bernie Sanders lacks the judgment to be a President because nearly every major vote he has ever taken as a senator has been ideologically based. To me that shows a lack of independent thinking. Hillary is right some of the time, wrong some of the time, but she is realistic, pragmatic, and thinks for herself. 
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:lmao:

What an absolute crock.  You are completely delusional

 
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Higgs said:
Right church, wrong pew.  He should be defending the American workers rather than crucifying the large evil corporations.  The guy hates capitalism, pure and simple.
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He is looking out for the American workers, something our current plutocracy hasn't done for a while now

 
Slapdash said:
He is looking out for the American workers, something our current plutocracy hasn't done for a while now
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Agree with you on the last bit.  But with Bernie it always comes back to demonizing Wall Street and corporations.  The business of Anerica is business.

 
Slapdash said:
He is looking out for the American workers, something our current plutocracy hasn't done for a while now
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How is he looking out for the American worker when he wants to lower the hourly wage for many working Americans? Before you say he doesn't, what do you think legalizing millions of illegals will do? What do you think not securing the border will do?

 
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dfsguy said:
How is he looking out for the American worker when he wants to lower the hourly wage for many working Americans? Before you say he isn't, what do you think legalizing millions of illegals will do? What do you think not securing the border will do?
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I'd like to hear the logic that legalizing currently undocumented workers (hence making them subject to minimum wage laws) will actually decrease wages.

As to the broader question, economic studies have shown time and time again that immigration has little to slightly positive impact on wages.

 
Higgs said:
Slapdash said:
He is looking out for the American workers, something our current plutocracy hasn't done for a while now
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Agree with you on the last bit.  But with Bernie it always comes back to demonizing Wall Street and corporations.  The business of Anerica is business.
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Allowing largest corporations to control policy doesn't just hurt workers and consumers, it also hurts small businesses.  What you call demonization I see as focusing on the core issue behind all the others

 
dfsguy said:
It's kind of funny, but whenever I see pictures of Bernie supporters most of them look VERY confused and VERY fat. A LOT of the young ones have blue hair and come across as insane as well.
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They tend to be the ones on the lower end of the ladder, and usually not all that energetic.  The Democratic Party today is about appealing to the lowest common denominator.  Reward the unemployed, low skilled laborers, teenagers who get pregnant, illegal immigrants, etc.  And they justify it by calling it s "fair share".  It's like reverse survival of the fittest.  On the wrong see if history that's for damn sure.

 
NCCommish said:
I can't even imagine the crap storm if Bernie started talking about Clinton's "tone* and how she should know her place.
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This comment has been nagging me in light of the recent agreement to the debate in Brooklyn.

I'd keep an eye out for Hillary trying to pull a Rick Lazio on Bernie. I know, not remotely the same men, at all, but Hillary does Pathos. She does not have Bill's empathy or the usual emotive skill of the good politicians, but she does purposefully try to engender sympathy in people for her personally. Hillary may well be trying to turn Sanders into the attacker and her into the attacked, followed by the appeal for help or sympathy. Timing is everything.

 
Slapdash said:
Allowing largest corporations to control policy doesn't just hurt workers and consumers, it also hurts small businesses.  What you call demonization I see as focusing on the core issue behind all the others
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That's not how he presents it.  He insinuates that Wall Street is greedy, corrupt, and stealing from the poor.  It's shameful pandering.

 
Slapdash said:
I'd like to hear the logic that legalizing currently undocumented workers (hence making them subject to minimum wage laws) will actually decrease wages.

As to the broader question, economic studies have shown time and time again that immigration has little to slightly positive impact on wages.
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It will decrease wages for the American workers they are competing with, supply and demand. I couldn't careless about illegals getting paid more money if they become legal, they broke the law and need to go.

I always love these studies that were paid for by the people wanting to take advantage of slave labor being used as proof that illegal immigration helps the American worker.

 
dfsguy said:
It will decrease wages for the American workers they are competing with, supply and demand. I couldn't careless about illegals getting paid more money if they become legal, they broke the law and need to go.

I always love these studies that were paid for by the people wanting to take advantage of slave labor being used as proof that illegal immigration helps the American worker.
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huh?

 
Higgs said:
Provocative, but not trolling.  I'll debate this with anyone in here.  And I'll win.  The Democratic Party has abandoned the Middle Class.  It caters to the lower class now.  Fact.
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Both parties have abandoned the middle class. Which is why so many people want an outsider non-party-beholden candidate this year.  

 
Higgs said:
Provocative, but not trolling.  I'll debate this with anyone in here.  And I'll win.  The Democratic Party has abandoned the Middle Class.  It caters to the lower class now.  Fact.
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Only one problem with that argument. A good size portion of the middle class is becoming the lower class.

 
Henry Ford said:
Both parties have abandoned the middle class. Which is why so many people want an outsider non-party-beholden candidate this year.  
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You got it Henry.  That's why there's a weird commonality between Trump and Sanders.  Other than the bad hair.

 
bananafish said:
These "free trade" agreements have been mostly giveaways to corporations using the free trade moniker to dupe the unsuspecting public to support them because they think real-life free trade is a good idea. Tim and this Panama deal are a good example. This is why details on the TPP are so impossible to find...they don't want you to know what's in it.

I would support free trade if we lived in the "Wealth of Nations" world that Adam Smith wrote about. Bernie probably would too. I assume this is what most free-traders are thinking of when they voice their support, but this world does not exist. We export jobs and capital and get cheap goods in return while our corporations get access to their markets and cheap labor. Thank God somebody like Bernie exists to sound the alarm even though nobody was listening at the time.

Also, the last military exercise that Bernie supported was the bombing of Kosovo. If that had been the only military adventurism we'd been engaged in over the last 20 years we'd be a lucky (and much richer) nation, ISIS probably would never have formed and the motivation for 9/11 wouldn't have existed.

Bernie votes idealistically in that he won't support bad deals and unnecessary wars. If that's voting idealistically then he has my vote.
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Wow. This is a very good refutation to what I wrote. I don't agree with you about the purpose of the free trade agreements (or with the greater point, unmentioned but always implicit in these sorts of arguments, which is that what's good for corporations is bad for the American worker or the middle class), but I have to admit you and a few others have given me some food for thought. 

Regarding your point about Kosovo, didn't Bernie support the post 9/11 invasion of Afghanistan? 

 
Mister CIA said:
Did I miss it in this thread, or was there a link posted to Rosario Dawson's speech last week in the Bronx? I did not see it until yesterday, when my son pointed me in to this link.

:wub: :wub:   :wub:  
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She's awesome. Hot, sexy, smart woman, great actress.

And she brought up the email issue. Bernie was asked about this on Meet The Press. He said she is entitled to her opinion and to speak it.

 
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