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Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (8 Viewers)

Her platform when she announced (unaffected by Sanders moving her to the left) or her platform in 2008 wouldn't have made her "the most centrist Democratic nominee ever" or "like a Republican from the 80s".  Those kind of statements just show a complete ignorance of the history of Democratic nominees.  Which is fine, nobody is expecting everyone to be an expert on how Jimmy Carter governed (as opposed to how he's been portrayed), but it should probably make people leery of making categorical statements like that. 

In the 90s, the narrative on Hillary was that she was the unrealistic liberal scold who pushed for single-payer and annoyed Bill's staff.  Now, she's the dyed-in-the-wool centrist who worked on the Goldwater campaign.  The truth is that she's what she's been her entire adult life.  An admittedly flawed mainstream liberal.  More hawkish than I'd like on defense, but with a long, long history of work on expanding the social safety net, particularly for the most vulnerable. 

I voted for Bernie.  I donated to Bernie.  I am to the left of Hillary (I'm to left of almost everyone I know).  Hillary routinely drives me crazy.  But to see my own supposed ideological allies  present the same cartoon image of Hillary as Fox News would is just baffling to me. 
Yeah, I probably align fairly well with you as far as political ideology goes. I do tend to think that she was more involved in many aspects of her husband's administration that you seem to believe -- PRWORA and the 1994 crime bill were truly horrible IMO, and I don't let her off of the hook completely on those. And it's OK for reasonable people to disagree there also IMO. Also agree with you on her foreign policy being way too hawkish. I'm not the one who called her the most centrist Democratic nominee ever, nor would I, but I do think that she definitely falls to the right of Obama, and she's waaaay to the right of where I personally fall. Guess we'll see.

 
I'd agree that most of what he says falls into this category, particularly the angry / fearful nativism aspects. But who is he pandering to with the "give nukes to the Saudis" angle? I've seriously never heard that from anyone else, ever.
I suspect it's a nod to those that think the US should stop fighting battles for other countries.  There's a growing sentiment in this country that we don't belong meddling in other countries' affairs when ours are so out of whack.  I suspect when he says stuff like this it's his muddled way of trying to reach those people.  Either that or he's having mini-strokes where #### just comes out of his mouth.  That's possible too.

 
I suspect it's a nod to those that think the US should stop fighting battles for other countries.  There's a growing sentiment in this country that we don't belong meddling in other countries' affairs when ours are so out of whack.  I suspect when he says stuff like this it's his muddled way of trying to reach those people.  Either that or he's having mini-strokes where #### just comes out of his mouth.  That's possible too.
Yeah, again, the fact that a reasonable position like "scale back our active involvement in the ME" can come out like "give King Salman some Tridents" doesn't really make it better in my eyes at all. Personally, I think he's genuinely both clueless and crazy.

 
One of the things I find most annoying, and least persuasive, is when people tell me I have to vote a certain way because the opponent is "worse".

That really tells me a lot in terms of how little they support their own candidate - that they cannot come up with positive reasons to support the candidate.  Instead of telling me that Trump is going to be the devil incarnate - tell me why you think Clinton will be a good president on her own merits.  I get that many people believe she will be a fine president - so go out and tell the world, and build a positive message for her.  That is much more powerful than "She's better than Trump".  The later does nothing to motivate voters to support your candidate.

 
Yeah, this is complete bull####.

Hillary's platform is significantly to the left of her husband's in 92.  It's far, far to the left of Carter (who deregulated the airline industry, cut capital gains taxes, and passed a clearly inadequate stimulus in the name of making "tough choices"). 

There are real, fair criticisms of Hillary Clinton.  But quotes like that make it very, very hard to take Bernie bros seriously.  Hillary would expand the ACA to approach universal healthcare coverage.  She would implement a large chunk or Bernie's college tuition program (families up to $125K).  She's expanding parental leave.  She's imposing a 4% tax surcharge on the upper 0.02% of taxpayers.  She's proposing expanding union's collective bargaining rights.  Does any of this sound like a Republican from the 80s to you?  Even a relatively moderate one like Jack Kemp.  Nope. 

As Pat Moynihan once said, "Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but you don't have a right to your own facts."
Let's see how much of that actually happens. How much of this was of her own accord and not being forced there by Bernie's support.

I can easily also trot out extremely militaristically hawkish, pro banks and business...now does this sound like a republican candidate from the 80s? You can trot out her newly adopted platform that she may or may not do or you can look at what she has done.

But please give me some more cute quotes.

:thumbup:

 
I suspect it's a nod to those that think the US should stop fighting battles for other countries.  There's a growing sentiment in this country that we don't belong meddling in other countries' affairs when ours are so out of whack.  I suspect when he says stuff like this it's his muddled way of trying to reach those people.  Either that or he's having mini-strokes where #### just comes out of his mouth.  That's possible too.
Yeah, again, the fact that a reasonable position like "scale back our active involvement in the ME" can come out like "give King Salman some Tridents" doesn't really make it better in my eyes at all. Personally, I think he's genuinely both clueless and crazy.
He's had a moment or two here/there where he seems relatively sane and makes relatively sane statements.  Where he gets in trouble is on the "consequence" side of the equation.  Take NATO for example.  If you listen to him, his initial premise was to look at NATO and see if it can be reworked because he believes it's out of date and NATO partners aren't doing their part.  Of course you have to weed through all the mannerisms and babbling, but the thought is there.  Where he goes off the rails is when the follow up question is about what he'd do if he couldn't renegotiate.  That's where he basically offers to blow #### up and that's what get played over and over.  That coupled with his extra effort to avoid being PC and you get what you see in the media.  His packaging is terrible and his knowledge is clearly lacking.  There's no question Hillary's knowledge is far superior.  My problem with her is her judgment and ability to make the right decisions based on her knowledge.  I could be the smartest person in the world when it comes to "knowing" but if I can't apply it, especially in a position like POTUS, what good is that knowledge in practical terms?

 
He's had a moment or two here/there where he seems relatively sane and makes relatively sane statements.  Where he gets in trouble is on the "consequence" side of the equation.  Take NATO for example.  If you listen to him, his initial premise was to look at NATO and see if it can be reworked because he believes it's out of date and NATO partners aren't doing their part.  Of course you have to weed through all the mannerisms and babbling, but the thought is there.  Where he goes off the rails is when the follow up question is about what he'd do if he couldn't renegotiate.  That's where he basically offers to blow #### up and that's what get played over and over.  That coupled with his extra effort to avoid being PC and you get what you see in the media.  His packaging is terrible and his knowledge is clearly lacking.  There's no question Hillary's knowledge is far superior.  My problem with her is her judgment and ability to make the right decisions based on her knowledge.  I could be the smartest person in the world when it comes to "knowing" but if I can't apply it, especially in a position like POTUS, what good is that knowledge in practical terms?
I think that you might be straining to find nuggets of rationality in inherently irrational and contradictory statements and positions. The only consistent and (relatively) coherent message to come out of him and his campaign is the truly ugly nativist element. It's a pretty big leap from anything rational to "give the Saudis nukes" or "default on our national debt" IMO, to name just the two most horrifying things he's said.

 
One of the things I find most annoying, and least persuasive, is when people tell me I have to vote a certain way because the opponent is "worse".

That really tells me a lot in terms of how little they support their own candidate - that they cannot come up with positive reasons to support the candidate.  Instead of telling me that Trump is going to be the devil incarnate - tell me why you think Clinton will be a good president on her own merits.  I get that many people believe she will be a fine president - so go out and tell the world, and build a positive message for her.  That is much more powerful than "She's better than Trump".  The later does nothing to motivate voters to support your candidate.
Generally agree -- disagree in this specific instance because I believe that Trump is pretty much the single most potentially damaging major political candidate that this country has ever seen. There have been plenty of them that I have disagreed with, obviously, but nowhere near this level of willful ignorance and hate / fear mongering, at least in my lifetime.

As far as positives about Hillary, I line up with her fairly well on social issues. I agree with her on education for the most part. I believe she'll fight for gun control. I agree with her on healthcare. She'll nominate liberal SC justices.

 
One of the things I find most annoying, and least persuasive, is when people tell me I have to vote a certain way because the opponent is "worse".

That really tells me a lot in terms of how little they support their own candidate - that they cannot come up with positive reasons to support the candidate.  Instead of telling me that Trump is going to be the devil incarnate - tell me why you think Clinton will be a good president on her own merits.  I get that many people believe she will be a fine president - so go out and tell the world, and build a positive message for her.  That is much more powerful than "She's better than Trump".  The later does nothing to motivate voters to support your candidate.
Obviously you should vote for whoever you like.  The chances that your vote will make any difference in the result are infinitesimal.  With that said, I think it's important to at least scrutinize the assumptions behind your decision.

I've voted for Jill Stein before.  I voted for her in 2012.  I lived in DC, Obama was going to win no matter what, I disliked his drone policy, and I wanted a Progressive alternative.  In truth, it wasn't a particularly informed vote.  Jill Stein has said some wacky stuff this campaign season.  She's been weirdly non-committal about vaccines, and the stuff about Hillary having already done the stuff we're worried about Trump doing is just demonstrably untrue.  So I'm not inclined to vote for her again, even if I might vote for some Greens down ticket. 

But if you think your vote's very small utility toward moving the Greens (or the Libertarians, I suppose, although I truly can't contemplate a Bernie supporter voting for Gary Johnson) closer to the mainstream by getting recognition or federal funding is more important that it's very small utility toward keeping Donald Trump from being President, I don't have any quibble with that.

But I do take issue with the claim that there's no difference between Hillary and Trump or that Hillary losing would be a net positive for the Progressive movement or any of that clap trap. 

 
One of the things I find most annoying, and least persuasive, is when people tell me I have to vote a certain way because the opponent is "worse".

That really tells me a lot in terms of how little they support their own candidate - that they cannot come up with positive reasons to support the candidate.  Instead of telling me that Trump is going to be the devil incarnate - tell me why you think Clinton will be a good president on her own merits.  I get that many people believe she will be a fine president - so go out and tell the world, and build a positive message for her.  That is much more powerful than "She's better than Trump".  The later does nothing to motivate voters to support your candidate.
I agree with this.  The odd thing is that I hear it from both sides this election. 

 
I think that you might be straining to find nuggets of rationality in inherently irrational and contradictory statements and positions. The only consistent and (relatively) coherent message to come out of him and his campaign is the truly ugly nativist element. It's a pretty big leap from anything rational to "give the Saudis nukes" or "default on our national debt" IMO, to name just the two most horrifying things he's said.
"straining" would imply I'm trying.  I'm not.  It seems to be his MO though (from someone who pays little attention to the :hophead: ) He seems to start off coherent, then his "thinking on the fly" gets him in trouble innocently enough.  The sound bytes we hear are generally after he's doubled/tripled down on something he really has no idea about.  All of this points to a severe lack in understanding of how our government works.  Quite frankly, I don't think he has a clue how government works.  I've never heard him list an action outside the lens of how he does things in business.  This is one of the primary reasons I'm not concerned with him being able to actually implement any of his half baked ideas.  As for how he makes America look to the rest of the world socially?  Well, if we're being honest, we aren't the beacon of light/hope we once were.  The world view of us is incredibly tarnished, to the point where I don't think he could make it significantly worse all by himself.  Now, of course, establishments around the world will NOT like him and he'll strain our ally patience, but in the end we all know our allies are our allies because of reasons well beyond the social aspects.  At worst he becomes a necessary evil.  At best he's a bumbling goof who is lead by the people he's surrounded himself with politically.  

tl'dr - Trump is a moron, but he's not going to blow up the world.  The truth is in between those two points IMO.

 
A vote for Hillary is also a vote that we are OK with what the DNC did.  If Hillary wants our votes, then she probably should not have done these things:

- Hire DWS 2 hours after being told to step down from the DNC

- Chose Tim Kaine as the VP

She and her DNC counterparts hate Bernie and the progressive movement.  He represents the people.  She represents the politically greased machine of illegal donations, Wall Street, and big money.  I want the DNC leadership all gone so we can return to a situation where our votes in the primary do mean something.  That scenario is best accomplished if Hillary loses.

 
But I do take issue with the claim that there's no difference between Hillary and Trump or that Hillary losing would be a net positive for the Progressive movement or any of that clap trap. 
I think there is a difference, but perhaps a difference without a distinction.

I don't look as a Trump presidency as a path to a progressive future - but I don't really look at a Clinton presidency as a path to a progressive future.  Clinton would be more progressive, on some most issues, but being more progressive is not the same as being progressive.

I am generally not overly concerned about a Trump presidency.  I have outlined those thoughts plenty, but it boils down to this: what is Trump going to do as President?  He is going to appoint a conservative Justice - ok, so he will replace Scalia with a conservative justice, not earth shattering.  No guarantees that another slot opens up in 4 years, and no guarantees that Dems allow a 2nd appointment on the heels of how the GOP treated Obama.

"Trump is going leave NATO - or refuse to honor our commitment"  - President cannot unilaterally leave NATO, and if he uses the threat of pulling out to get other countries to start chipping in more, meh, not the end of the world.

"Trump is going to Nuke someone" - Really?

"Trump is going to dismantle ACA" - this one is tricky, because it is probably true.  But, if we are being honest, ACA has not been effective at driving down healthcare costs.  And while my goal would be 100% coverage - we can't make that work unless/until we address the underlying costs.  And this is where I quibble with Clinton - she is not going to address the underlying costs either - and that is a pretty important issue to me.  I preferred the single-payer, that allowed the government to negotiate better terms with healthcare and pharma industries.  So, yes, Trump will disrupt this - but the compromise that is/was ACA, really was ineffectual and needs a radical fix, not a duct-tape fix.

The biggest concern I have with a Trump presidency is what it says about our electorate - the mindset that rewards the xenophobia.  But, as I noted earlier, this mindset exists in large pockets of the country regardless of a Trump election.  That is a ticking time-bomb.

With Clinton, my concerns boil down to two areas: first, I don't trust her at all on the economy.  I think she will try to do something similar to Bill, and goose the economy, giving the appearance of short-term gains, at the expense of a long-term drag on the economy.  We are still struggling to get out from under the housing bubble Bill helped create.  Clinton's policies still favor wall street over main street - and I think we need to re-visit that economic model.  I think her trade preferences hurt American workers, in favor of American shareholders - but there are more workers, negatively affected than shareholders.

Foreign policy - I think Clinton is more likely, than Trump, to get us embroiled in an international conflict, whether that is in the middle-east, or in the South China Sea.  Her resume points to interventionism, and I think her ego will drag us into places we don't belong.  That, to me, is a far greater threat to the country, than Trump's lack of diplomacy.

Environment - this tips in Clinton's favor, but not so far as to outweigh my bigger concerns with her economic and foreign policy.

At the end of the day, I find no rational reason to support either candidate.  I accept that many like Clinton, and dislike Trump, and vice versa.  I have not heard a convincing argument from either side that their candidate is that much better than the other.  On balance, I find Clinton to be more worrisome, but not so much to make me want to vote Trump.  Yet, I don't find either to be a signal that the world is ending.  I don't know where my vote ends up - but I cannot imagine a scenario where I reward either party with my vote in this election.

 
At the end of the day, I find no rational reason to support either candidate. 
Same here. I will either not vote, vote for Johnson, or I may have a few beers at lunch a cast a vote for Trump and blame it on the beers. The only way I'd vote for Clinton is if I was on the receiving end of her back hall deals, but I have nothing to bring to a back hall meeting with her. 

 
A vote for Hillary is also a vote that we are OK with what the DNC did.  If Hillary wants our votes, then she probably should not have done these things:

- Hire DWS 2 hours after being told to step down from the DNC

- Chose Tim Kaine as the VP

She and her DNC counterparts hate Bernie and the progressive movement.  He represents the people.  She represents the politically greased machine of illegal donations, Wall Street, and big money.  I want the DNC leadership all gone so we can return to a situation where our votes in the primary do mean something.  That scenario is best accomplished if Hillary loses.
Have people actually read the "problematic" emails from the DNC server hack?  What I see are a bunch of DNC people who have been accused of tipping the scales since the winter of 2015 frustrated as hell in May of 2016 after Hillary has already become the presumptive nominee pushing back against the narrative the Sanders campaign has used against the DNC.  So we get people upset that a DNC staffer has contacted Chuck Todd with facts when one of his colleagues trashes DWS.  Political staffers do that ALL THE TIME.  It is not a conflict of interest.  It is not collusion.  It is contacting someone you know at the network and saying, "Hey, can you let XX know that she's talking out of her ###?" 

Which is to say nothing of the fact that even if you think it is demonstrative of a more serious problem, that comes down to the DNC preferring someone who has been a Democrat for 40 years to someone who hasn't. 

DWS may be lousy at her job.  She certainly personally preferred Clinton to Sanders.  But the evidence of the system being rigged against Sanders is non-existent.  He ran a great primary campaign.  He made a big impact on the platform.  Your votes in the primary meant something.  But so did the votes for Hillary in the primaries.  And there were substantially more of those. 

 
A vote for Hillary is also a vote that we are OK with what the DNC did.  If Hillary wants our votes, then she probably should not have done these things:

- Hire DWS 2 hours after being told to step down from the DNC

- Chose Tim Kaine as the VP

She and her DNC counterparts hate Bernie and the progressive movement.  He represents the people.  She represents the politically greased machine of illegal donations, Wall Street, and big money.  I want the DNC leadership all gone so we can return to a situation where our votes in the primary do mean something.  That scenario is best accomplished if Hillary loses.
So don't vote for her. Nobody cares about the personal preferences of a few Bernie stragglers anymore.

 
With that point of view, it makes sense why you think she will win in a landslide. 
Most of them will come to their senses by November and vote for Hillary Clinton. The rest of them are attention seekers who want a cookie for being the first voters ever to vote their conscience and send a message to the establishment. No point in trying to coddle people like that.

 
I think there is a difference, but perhaps a difference without a distinction.

I don't look as a Trump presidency as a path to a progressive future - but I don't really look at a Clinton presidency as a path to a progressive future.  Clinton would be more progressive, on some most issues, but being more progressive is not the same as being progressive.

I am generally not overly concerned about a Trump presidency.  I have outlined those thoughts plenty, but it boils down to this: what is Trump going to do as President?  He is going to appoint a conservative Justice - ok, so he will replace Scalia with a conservative justice, not earth shattering.  No guarantees that another slot opens up in 4 years, and no guarantees that Dems allow a 2nd appointment on the heels of how the GOP treated Obama.

"Trump is going leave NATO - or refuse to honor our commitment"  - President cannot unilaterally leave NATO, and if he uses the threat of pulling out to get other countries to start chipping in more, meh, not the end of the world.

"Trump is going to Nuke someone" - Really?

"Trump is going to dismantle ACA" - this one is tricky, because it is probably true.  But, if we are being honest, ACA has not been effective at driving down healthcare costs.  And while my goal would be 100% coverage - we can't make that work unless/until we address the underlying costs.  And this is where I quibble with Clinton - she is not going to address the underlying costs either - and that is a pretty important issue to me.  I preferred the single-payer, that allowed the government to negotiate better terms with healthcare and pharma industries.  So, yes, Trump will disrupt this - but the compromise that is/was ACA, really was ineffectual and needs a radical fix, not a duct-tape fix.

The biggest concern I have with a Trump presidency is what it says about our electorate - the mindset that rewards the xenophobia.  But, as I noted earlier, this mindset exists in large pockets of the country regardless of a Trump election.  That is a ticking time-bomb.

With Clinton, my concerns boil down to two areas: first, I don't trust her at all on the economy.  I think she will try to do something similar to Bill, and goose the economy, giving the appearance of short-term gains, at the expense of a long-term drag on the economy.  We are still struggling to get out from under the housing bubble Bill helped create.  Clinton's policies still favor wall street over main street - and I think we need to re-visit that economic model.  I think her trade preferences hurt American workers, in favor of American shareholders - but there are more workers, negatively affected than shareholders.

Foreign policy - I think Clinton is more likely, than Trump, to get us embroiled in an international conflict, whether that is in the middle-east, or in the South China Sea.  Her resume points to interventionism, and I think her ego will drag us into places we don't belong.  That, to me, is a far greater threat to the country, than Trump's lack of diplomacy.

Environment - this tips in Clinton's favor, but not so far as to outweigh my bigger concerns with her economic and foreign policy.

At the end of the day, I find no rational reason to support either candidate.  I accept that many like Clinton, and dislike Trump, and vice versa.  I have not heard a convincing argument from either side that their candidate is that much better than the other.  On balance, I find Clinton to be more worrisome, but not so much to make me want to vote Trump.  Yet, I don't find either to be a signal that the world is ending.  I don't know where my vote ends up - but I cannot imagine a scenario where I reward either party with my vote in this election.
Let's look at Trump's campaign promises.  He promises massive deregulation (including abolishing the EPA, which probably does more than "tip" the environment in Hillary's favor.

His tax plan is catastrophic.  I don't think anybody who has passed 8th grade math has endorsed it, much less any reputable economist of any political persuasion. 

He has endorsed deporting 12,000,000 illegal immigrants, criminal sanctions for women who have had abortions, ground troops in Syria, retribution against civilians (by going after terrorist's families, never mind that we have a hard enough time avoiding killing innocent civilians when we just go after the terrorists themselves).  He would repeal the ACA, which whatever you think of it, has insured 20 million new people.   He would apparently greatly increase military spending so that "we're so big that no one would dare mess with us (we're already, by far, the largest and best funded military in the world.  That doesn't deter suicide bombers). 

Hillary's Wall Street regulation plan had more teeth than Bernie's.  We can question her ties to the industry.  She's taken money from them.  But the plan itself is the plan.  Hers was more aligned with what actually caused the 2008 crash.   We certainly can't assume that her plan to regulate Wall Street is inferior to Trump's plan to deregulate pretty much everything (at least not from the progressive perspective). 

On the Supreme Court, we have two justices over 80 and one more that is 77.  The odds that Ginsberg, Kennedy, and Breyer all stay on the court until 2020 are slim.  And that's not even taking into account the possibility that Clarence Thomas (who is 68 and sounding increasingly like Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon) could decide to quit too if he's suddenly part of a court with a liberal majority that could last a decade or more.  The potential to remake the court is enormous in this election. 

 
 I truly can't contemplate a Bernie supporter voting for Gary Johnson
Why not? I supported Bernie because I want (1) A less hawkish foreign policy; (2) More bank regulation. On point one Johnson is vastly superior to Clinton. On point two, neither of them is going to regulate the banks but at least Johnson has the decency not to lie to me about it.

 
Let's look at Trump's campaign promises.  He promises massive deregulation (including abolishing the EPA, which probably does more than "tip" the environment in Hillary's favor.

His tax plan is catastrophic.  I don't think anybody who has passed 8th grade math has endorsed it, much less any reputable economist of any political persuasion. 

He has endorsed deporting 12,000,000 illegal immigrants, criminal sanctions for women who have had abortions, ground troops in Syria, retribution against civilians (by going after terrorist's families, never mind that we have a hard enough time avoiding killing innocent civilians when we just go after the terrorists themselves).  He would repeal the ACA, which whatever you think of it, has insured 20 million new people.   He would apparently greatly increase military spending so that "we're so big that no one would dare mess with us (we're already, by far, the largest and best funded military in the world.  That doesn't deter suicide bombers). 

Hillary's Wall Street regulation plan had more teeth than Bernie's.  We can question her ties to the industry.  She's taken money from them.  But the plan itself is the plan.  Hers was more aligned with what actually caused the 2008 crash.   We certainly can't assume that her plan to regulate Wall Street is inferior to Trump's plan to deregulate pretty much everything (at least not from the progressive perspective). 

On the Supreme Court, we have two justices over 80 and one more that is 77.  The odds that Ginsberg, Kennedy, and Breyer all stay on the court until 2020 are slim.  And that's not even taking into account the possibility that Clarence Thomas (who is 68 and sounding increasingly like Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon) could decide to quit too if he's suddenly part of a court with a liberal majority that could last a decade or more.  The potential to remake the court is enormous in this election. 
See, I guess I buy into the notion that they are both liars - so things said carry less weight for me.

As a president, I think Trump will not get much, if anything, he wants.  He has no support among either party.  So, I find it a bit disingenuous to suggest he is going to dismantle the country single-handedly.  ACA - he has support from GOP congress - so I get that.  Most of everything else you posted, I take with a grain of salt.  I see it as bluster.  I can understand why some might not (but I hope those are not the same people who accuse Trump of lying about everything...)

I think Clinton has both the support, and in the incentive, to enact economic policy that will be harmful.  I think Clinton will be much more interventionist than Trump - not even close on that one.  I think Clinton will make extensive use of executive orders - and while Trump might, I think he has much to learn when it comes to those nuances, so I am not concerned.

As for the SC - you can't have your cake and eat it too - Thomas is not going to step down because the court became too liberal during Trump's term.  And, while any of them could die, none of the liberals will step down while Trump is in office, and any replacements post 2018 will be filibustered by the Dems until the next election.  I think, realistically, he only replaces Scalia, and even then it will be a more centrist jurist.  The potential to re-make the court is overblown - as are most scare-techniques in an election.

 
Why not? I supported Bernie because I want (1) A less hawkish foreign policy; (2) More bank regulation. On point one Johnson is vastly superior to Clinton. On point two, neither of them is going to regulate the banks but at least Johnson has the decency not to lie to me about it.
Legalizing weed is another big issue on which Bernie and Johnson are more aligned than Bernie and Hillary.  

 
Legalizing weed is another big issue on which Bernie and Johnson are more aligned than Bernie and Hillary.  
Well, big for some of us I guess. 

For single or even two issue voters, I suppose I can understand some overlap.  But it's hard to think of two candidates who disagree more about the proper role and scope of government in a free society.

 
Have people actually read the "problematic" emails from the DNC server hack?  What I see are a bunch of DNC people who have been accused of tipping the scales since the winter of 2015 frustrated as hell in May of 2016 after Hillary has already become the presumptive nominee pushing back against the narrative the Sanders campaign has used against the DNC.  So we get people upset that a DNC staffer has contacted Chuck Todd with facts when one of his colleagues trashes DWS.  Political staffers do that ALL THE TIME.  It is not a conflict of interest.  It is not collusion.  It is contacting someone you know at the network and saying, "Hey, can you let XX know that she's talking out of her ###?" 

Which is to say nothing of the fact that even if you think it is demonstrative of a more serious problem, that comes down to the DNC preferring someone who has been a Democrat for 40 years to someone who hasn't. 

DWS may be lousy at her job.  She certainly personally preferred Clinton to Sanders.  But the evidence of the system being rigged against Sanders is non-existent.  He ran a great primary campaign.  He made a big impact on the platform.  Your votes in the primary meant something.  But so did the votes for Hillary in the primaries.  And there were substantially more of those. 




 
- Hillary Victory Fund set up to break the campaign finance laws.  Sold to donors (and the Hollywood elites where they participated in the dinners) that the money was for downstream politics when 99.5% of the money went directly to Hillary.  Hillary was getting clobbered raising money before this was set up.  The people wanted Bernie Sanders.  The DNC set up an avenue to trick their richest democrat donors with the sole purpose to funnel nearly all the money to HRC beating Bernie.

The leaks just confirmed what a lot of us suspected.  The fix was in.  I don't want a DNC that suppresses the will of the people.  This collusion goes way deeper than the scapegoat at the top.  Blow it up before November and fire DWS from the HRC campaign if you really want to reach over to Bernie supporters.  But I think we know the answer to that.  HRC can't fire the people that were part of the rigging for fear of what they might say.     

 
Legalizing weed is another big issue on which Bernie and Johnson are more aligned than Bernie and Hillary.  
Well, big for some of us I guess. 

For single or even two issue voters, I suppose I can understand some overlap.  But it's hard to think of two candidates who disagree more about the proper role and scope of government in a free society.
It's been kind of interesting to talk to people the last few cycles.  There's this growing divide it seems.  People either want "all in" and government fully involved or they want gov't out completely.  The "in the middle" group is dwindling it seems.  Personally, I think the gov't should be involved in our education, our military and our healthcare (including our food supply).  The rest, not so much. And whatever plans they come up with in those areas should apply equally to all of us as an electorate.   

 
- Hillary Victory Fund set up to break the campaign finance laws.  Sold to donors (and the Hollywood elites where they participated in the dinners) that the money was for downstream politics when 99.5% of the money went directly to Hillary.  Hillary was getting clobbered raising money before this was set up.  The people wanted Bernie Sanders.  The DNC set up an avenue to trick their richest democrat donors with the sole purpose to funnel nearly all the money to HRC beating Bernie.

The leaks just confirmed what a lot of us suspected.  The fix was in.  I don't want a DNC that suppresses the will of the people.  This collusion goes way deeper than the scapegoat at the top.  Blow it up before November and fire DWS from the HRC campaign if you really want to reach over to Bernie supporters.  But I think we know the answer to that.  HRC can't fire the people that were part of the rigging for fear of what they might say.     
I agree with you to the extent that I do think that the DNC was slanted in favor of Hillary beating Bernie, but I really don't share your outrage over it -- Bernie just joined the party, of course they are going to favor the person that has been a member for her entire adult life. That in itself isn't sinister to me, although the way they went about it certainly was. And you're dead wrong about the people favoring Bernie. Some of us did, but more favored Hillary. She won pretty handily.

 
I'd be curious to get Sanders' supporters thoughts on environmental protections, most prominently the Clean Power Plan.  Clinton pledges to defend it, and there's nothing in her record as a Senator to suggest she opposes environmental regulation of industry (in fact there's plenty of evidence that she's very strong on the subject on environmental protection).  Sanders wants to not only protect it but extend it. 

Trump plans to eliminate the CPP. In fact he's suggested abolishing the entire "Department of Environmental Protection." He can't do that because it doesn't exist (also can't abolish EPA since that would require legislation but he can try).

This is something a president could start on day one in office.  No cooperation from congress necessary.  Are all the Sanders voters who aren't abhorred by the prospect of a Trump presidency OK with this sort of thing,?

 
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I agree with you to the extent that I do think that the DNC was slanted in favor of Hillary beating Bernie, but I really don't share your outrage over it -- Bernie just joined the party, of course they are going to favor the person that has been a member for her entire adult life. That in itself isn't sinister to me, although the way they went about it certainly was. And you're dead wrong about the people favoring Bernie. Some of us did, but more favored Hillary. She won pretty handily.




 
Did she really win handily?  The New York election was filled with fraud.  The AP story breaks coincidentally the night before CA votes (with all the other media immediately latching on this story) and then there is ton of CA fraud too.  Why was Bernie able to get so many more "small" donations than Hillary?  And why was Hillary getting crushed at raising money before the DNC launched the Victory fund?  The DNC not allowing more debates, not being neutral gave Hillary the nod time and time again.  Illegal campaign contributions sealed her "victory" against the will of the people.    

 
Environmental protections are something I have given Obama kudos on.  It's one of the bright spots along with the encouragement to go solar.  I have no problem with those sorts of programs continuing.  

 
Did she really win handily?  The New York election was filled with fraud.  The AP story breaks coincidentally the night before CA votes (with all the other media immediately latching on this story) and then there is ton of CA fraud too.  Why was Bernie able to get so many more "small" donations than Hillary?  And why was Hillary getting crushed at raising money before the DNC launched the Victory fund?  The DNC not allowing more debates, not being neutral gave Hillary the nod time and time again.  Illegal campaign contributions sealed her "victory" against the will of the people.    
She won by almost 4 million votes; about 1/3 more than Bernie had. Personally, I don't think that the genuine will of the people was overturned. For the record, I voted for Bernie, phone banked my a$$ off, and gave him a pretty decent chunk of $$$. And would do it again, because I think that we collectively changed the political discourse in the country moving forward to at least some degree. I'm sad that he didn't win, but don't honestly believe that it was due to the shenanigans of the DNC given the margin.

 
- Hire DWS
I'm not going to try to convince you to vote for Clinton or anything and I get that you think the election was stolen, but I do think it's important that everyone understand DWS wasn't "hired" to do anything.  She's an honorary chair of one part of Clinton's campaign.  Unless the stuff I've seen is wrong... she has no salary, no budget, no responsibilities and no authority.  It's nothing but a face saver.

 
cstu said:
At the cost of how much anti-Progressive legislation and how many SC Justices?
Kind of lost the SC threat with the latest pick put forward. Recommended by Republicans as their choice. Sorry I don't elect "liberals" so they can put up judges hard core GOPers like. Kind of like I don't vote for "liberals" who choose a moderate republican for their running mate.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Yup.  Maybe you should ask yourself why the people most at risk of drowning if it tips over support Clinton overwhelmingly, while most of the people involved in the third party/protest movement at this point appear to be enjoying the comfortable life jackets afforded by their race, religion, ethnicity and gender.
Well I am white and male. But that's about all I got. I'm not wealthy. Trying to support a sick wife and myself working 50 hours a week. But I tend to not get shot by police as often. So I got that going for me, which is nice.

Here's my thought. Those preaching incrementalism are really the ones wallowing in their privilege. I got mine, you can wait for yours is the ultimate act of the privileged.

 
TobiasFunke said:
The second part, sure.  That's why I said "appear to be." There's obviously tons of pictures and videos of the protesters but pictures and videos can only tell you so much.  That's also why I asked if anyone has seen demographic breakdowns of Stein/Johnson supporters a couple days ago.

The first part, not so much.  Minorities overwhelmingly support Clinton. There's plenty of data to prove that, both from the primary race and in general election polls.
Yeah despite mass incarceration, block granted social programs helping less and less people, trade deals that killed inner city manufacturing which put a real crimp in the minority middle class growth and so much more. They are already drowning.

 
I'd be curious to get Sanders' supporters thoughts on environmental protections, most prominently the Clean Power Plan.  Clinton pledges to defend it, and there's nothing in her record as a Senator to suggest she opposes environmental regulation of industry (in fact there's plenty of evidence that she's very strong on the subject on environmental protection).  Sanders wants to not only protect it but extend it. 

Trump plans to eliminate the CPP. In fact he's suggested abolishing the entire "Department of Environmental Protection." He can't do that because it doesn't exist (also can't abolish EPA since that would require legislation but he can try).

This is something a president could start on day one in office.  No cooperation from congress necessary.  Are all the Sanders voters who aren't abhorred by the prospect of a Trump presidency OK with this sort of thing,?
She supports fracking. I think that pretty much answers where she is on the enviroment.

 
I asked this in a different thread but are we sure the contributions were illegal?
No they were done just inside the "law" we do have. But they were definitely an end run based on a loophole. The whole ####### system is legalized bribery to start and Hillary is awash in cash from it but that wasn't enough for Hillary. No they had to find another way to get even more money. The fact this was quasi-legal really is actually the point.

 
Her platform when she announced (unaffected by Sanders moving her to the left) or her platform in 2008 wouldn't have made her "the most centrist Democratic nominee ever" or "like a Republican from the 80s".  Those kind of statements just show a complete ignorance of the history of Democratic nominees.  Which is fine, nobody is expecting everyone to be an expert on how Jimmy Carter governed (as opposed to how he's been portrayed), but it should probably make people leery of making categorical statements like that. 

In the 90s, the narrative on Hillary was that she was the unrealistic liberal scold who pushed for single-payer and annoyed Bill's staff.  Now, she's the dyed-in-the-wool centrist who worked on the Goldwater campaign.  The truth is that she's what she's been her entire adult life.  An admittedly flawed mainstream liberal.  More hawkish than I'd like on defense, but with a long, long history of work on expanding the social safety net, particularly for the most vulnerable. 

I voted for Bernie.  I donated to Bernie.  I am to the left of Hillary (I'm to left of almost everyone I know).  Hillary routinely drives me crazy.  But to see my own supposed ideological allies  present the same cartoon image of Hillary as Fox News would is just baffling to me. 
It's like you were in the democrat speech writer's room 

 
NCCommish said:
Yeah despite mass incarceration, block granted social programs helping less and less people, trade deals that killed inner city manufacturing which put a real crimp in the minority middle class growth and so much more. They are already drowning.
Maybe you can explain to all those silly minorities why they don't know what's best for them, you do.

 
NCCommish said:
She supports fracking. I think that pretty much answers where she is on the enviroment.
You think Trump doesn't?  The difference is Trump also promises to kill the Clean Power Plan and wants to get rid of the EPA.  Ever heard the phrase "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"?

By the way I also support fracking, if it's done in a responsible way with extensive regulation including disclosure requirements.  The world isn't as black and white as you apparently think it is. You know all those people whose welfare you were so concerned about in your last post?  Guess what happens to their power bills (and for many, their heating bills in winter) if we stop fracking? 

Look, Obama made the case yesterday. Sanders gets it too, as he's shown time and again in the last month and throughout his career. Progress usually isn't made by revolution, and it certainly won't be made by allowing a reactionary to become president so he can normalize demagoguery and a total lack of accountability from our elected officials. You can join the fight for progress, even if it doesn't happen nearly as quickly as you'd like, or you can sit on the sidelines while other people try to walk it back :shrug:

 
I'm not going to try to convince you to vote for Clinton or anything and I get that you think the election was stolen, but I do think it's important that everyone understand DWS wasn't "hired" to do anything.  She's an honorary chair of one part of Clinton's campaign.  Unless the stuff I've seen is wrong... she has no salary, no budget, no responsibilities and no authority.  It's nothing but a face saver.
The proper response wouldn't be to allow DWS to save face.  The proper response would have been to publicly denounce her and her actions.

 
DWS should get a medal for taking one of the hardest, most thankless jobs in the democratic party and taking the heat for months without caving in. 

 
Wow?  You have a very low threshold for surprise, my friend.  It would have been way, way more surprising if he didn't.  And he didn't "quit" anything.  He said he's the exact same thing he was before and always has been, even during the campaign.  It might be the least newsy news I've heard since Garrett Morris told us General Francisco Franco was still dead.

This is what trying too hard looks like.

 
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