Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter BigSteelThrill
- Start date
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
How do you not? If you at the context (my post about overwhelming minority support for Clinton, the post to which he's responding), he's clearly saying that he thinks minorities are suffering under policies favored by Clinton and they support her in overwhelming numbers despite that. How is that anything other than "minorities are wrong to support Clinton"?How did you get to this from his post?
The Commish
Footballguy
If the bold is what you meant, you should have said that instead of the vastly different " explain to all those silly minorities why they don't know what's best for them, you do " Based on everything I've read from NCC on this "Do what you want, but i don't get it" is more along the lines of his thinking.How do you not? If you at the context (my post about overwhelming minority support for Clinton, the post to which he's responding), he's clearly saying that he thinks minorities are suffering under policies favored by Clinton and they support her in overwhelming numbers despite that. How is that anything other than "minorities are wrong to support Clinton"?How did you get to this from his post?
I don't want to speak for NCC; I'll give my perspective as a Bernie supporter who was baffled by the overwhelming minority support for Clinton. I don't think anyone is "wrong" for supporting Clinton. But I do think a vote for Clinton is a vote for more the same. If that's what you want- then great. But if you vote for more of the same please don't complain when that's what you get.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
They sound like more/less confrontational phrasing of the exact same sentiment to me.
Apologies to NCC if he doesn't like the more confrontational version, but he's not exactly known for gentle phrasing himself. Which I don't mind, I enjoy his posts a lot, I'm just matching the tone.Anyway that really shouldn't be the big point this morning. The big point should be the one made by Sanders, Obama, Biden, Bloomberg, and everyone else over the last 48 hours: Clinton is a far more progressive candidate than she's gotten credit for, and hopefully Sanders supporters can accept their victories this election cycle even if not total (political victories rarely are) and join the incredibly important fight against Trump by supporting her.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
"The same" has been pretty good for minority communities IMO. Not perfect of course, but I think they're a lot better off than they were 8 years ago for a number of reasons. Not that I'm some sort of expert, but as near as I can tell from reading and listening that seems to be the sentiment.
But that's less important than the very simple fact that even if what you wrote is true, this election isn't about choosing between "more of the same" and progress. It would (assuming you're right) be about choosing between more of the same and regression. Even if you ignore the white supremacist support and the racist tweets and the "law and order" rhetoric and the xenophobia and Islamophobia it's right there on the red trucker hats- Trump wants to move backwards.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Obama's approval rating among minority voters is consistently near 90%, so it's no wonder they'll vote for more of the same.
Re: the bolded. That may be true. I'm a white guy- so I really don't know. Which is why I don't want to tell anyone their vote is "wrong." I just found it surprising. Anyone who wants more of the same should have voted for Hillary in the primary and certainly should vote for Hillary in the general.
Re: second paragraph I was speaking more to the primary. On the question of Trump vs. Hillary for minority communities I don't think anyone from the Bernie camp is arguing Trump's policies and rhetoric are better.
The Commish
Footballguy
I guess...to me telling someone they shouldn't be voting for X (and then listing reasons why) is very different from telling people you know what's best for them better than they do.
As to the "point of the morning" part, not one person you listed (I haven't watched Obama's speech yet...full disclosure) showed how she was more progressive than given credit for in the areas important to Bernie supporters. We've been over the "liberal" / "conservative" stuff in the other thread. Not worth doing again. Everything has boiled down to "she's more qualified for the position than Trump". This is absolutely true. It's worth pointing out a monkey is more qualified for the position than Trump. They do her no favors by setting Trump as the bar and making that comparison IMO.
As for Bernie supporters...well, most who were part of the democratic party are going to vote for her anyway. Those who weren't part of the party and drawn to him despite the party affiliation will be a tougher sell. I doubt she cares about them though. I explained why I believe we are (at best) in "wait and see" mode in one of these threads. Words mean little in our politics. Perhaps the actions will follow, but I'm not holding my breath. There's no reason to start counting chickens before they hatch.
As to the "point of the morning" part, not one person you listed (I haven't watched Obama's speech yet...full disclosure) showed how she was more progressive than given credit for in the areas important to Bernie supporters. We've been over the "liberal" / "conservative" stuff in the other thread. Not worth doing again. Everything has boiled down to "she's more qualified for the position than Trump". This is absolutely true. It's worth pointing out a monkey is more qualified for the position than Trump. They do her no favors by setting Trump as the bar and making that comparison IMO.
As for Bernie supporters...well, most who were part of the democratic party are going to vote for her anyway. Those who weren't part of the party and drawn to him despite the party affiliation will be a tougher sell. I doubt she cares about them though. I explained why I believe we are (at best) in "wait and see" mode in one of these threads. Words mean little in our politics. Perhaps the actions will follow, but I'm not holding my breath. There's no reason to start counting chickens before they hatch.
Last edited by a moderator:
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Not sure why you feel qualified to speak on what's important to Bernie supporters. I suspect that regardless of party affiliation many of them care more about the safety net and universal health care and immigration reform and protecting the environment and women's reproductive health and autonomy than you do.
The Commish
Footballguy
Shouldn't have said "important"...should have said Bernie's primary focus. It's clear he was focused on Wall Street, trade, healthcare and education. The rest goes back to what I was saying before about having done it in other threads already. While they care about them, I doubt they'd be satisfied if he addressed immigration, abortion etc and left those four things unaddressed. Abortion isn't going anywhere. It's fine to put that in the "progressive" category, but I really wish we'd move on from it being framed as something that still has to be accomplished. If the last 5-3 vote didn't tell us this, nothing will.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
I'm kind of curious if he did the Irish Goodbye when leaving the party.Walking Boot said:
Desert_Power
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I dunno, if Bernie really did manage to quit something without actually joining it first that would be a pretty cool trick IMO.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
If Bernie is a wizard, then all you Clinton folks really screwed up. He's had a spell for single payer the whole time damint
David Dodds
Administrator
Good for him. He gave his speech in an effort to elect the lesser of two evils, but it's hard to stay in a party who rigged the election against the will of the people. Plus Bernie had zero desire being in her cabinet and he certainly was not planning on stumping for her. Now that Bernie is out, the DNC should reinstate DWS as head of the DNC, and put big Xs through all the progressive platform talk that they never intended to enact anyway.
Last edited by a moderator:
The Commish
Footballguy
This move away from the 'party' was expected, right?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Do you all really know this little about the candidate you supported?
He didn't leave the party. He never really joined the party. You're reacting to a clickbait blog item about a non-event as if it's an important event and a principled stand, when it's literally just someone asking Sanders if he's still gonna be an independent like he always has been and he said yes, that's what I was elected as. There's a reason this wasn't reported as a news story by any actual news outlets. Here's Snopes if you don't believe me.
It would be a story if he didn't do this- very few members of Congress change their party affiliation during their tenure and it's always a huge story when they do.
He didn't leave the party. He never really joined the party. You're reacting to a clickbait blog item about a non-event as if it's an important event and a principled stand, when it's literally just someone asking Sanders if he's still gonna be an independent like he always has been and he said yes, that's what I was elected as. There's a reason this wasn't reported as a news story by any actual news outlets. Here's Snopes if you don't believe me.
It would be a story if he didn't do this- very few members of Congress change their party affiliation during their tenure and it's always a huge story when they do.
Last edited by a moderator:
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Like he said, he was elected as an independent. I have no problem with him continuing to be one. Non-issue to me.This move away from the 'party' was expected, right?
The Commish
Footballguy
I don't know who this is to, but I fully expected him to disassociate from the party once it was all over
I am reacting to posts in this forum (not been to any blog that you are referring to) as if this is some big deal. The lawyer "he didn't join join the party" stuff isn't all that helpful though. He registered as a democrat to get the benefits one would get from being such. This is obvious. It's also obvious there isn't much of a shot that the democrats are going to actually act as he'd like. They can throw all the platitudes and "concessions" out there on paper all they want. We can safely predict what's going to happen in practice and I'm sure he wants no part of it.
Parrothead
Footballguy
maybe Bernie will wake up and say F the dems- I'm running as an Independent (HIS party)
pantagrapher
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I'd have a problem if he didn't continue as an independent. When you're elected as a member or non-member of a party I think you have some obligation to serve your current term in that capacity. If you want to change party affiliations you should do it before an election so the voters know what they're supporting.
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
The "against the will of the people" shtick is pretty good.
If Dodds was at the DNC, he'd definitely be one of the people chanting during the speeches.
If Dodds was at the DNC, he'd definitely be one of the people chanting during the speeches.
The deck was stacked against Bernie. No reasonable person can dispute this.
Would Clinton would have won a fair contest?
Probably. But the point is we'll never know. That stink doesn't wash off easily.TobiasFunke
Footballguy
If you're pro-legalization and disagree with or don't care about literally every other issue important to Bernie Sanders or Democratic Socialism you should definitely accept this invitation.
To be fair, legalization is pretty awesome. I can't hate on that.
Last edited by a moderator:
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Don't disagree about a slanted playing field, and I'm a huge Bernie guy, but I don't get the outrage regardless. The party should only be reasonably expected to favor the person who has been a prominent member for 40 years over the independent who just joined for his Presidential run. And it's pretty hard to swallow the "we'll never know" given the massive advantage in the popular vote between the two. The people preferred Hillary. I don't, but that happens in a democracy.The deck was stacked against Bernie. No reasonable person can dispute this.
Would Clinton would have won a fair contest?
That's fine. The party is a private organization and it can do what it wants. But don't then turn around and act surprised when Sanders supporters aren't eager to jump on the Clinton train.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I'm not a socialist, honestly tend to be super liberal on social issues (only exception is abortion) and moderate to conservative fiscally. So, it was easy for me to throw my support to Johnson.
That said, what you should care about is that he is a far superior option to either of the major candidates. Hillary is corrupt. Do you really think she will be sitting in the Oval doing what is best for us or what is best for her? The other guy is a complete joke without a punchline.
Process of elimination should be lining people up at Johnson's doorstep right about now. Lets get him to the debates imo
Parrothead
Footballguy
this! I'm on the GJ train, and even got my wife (who was going to hold her nose and vote for her) to start looking into him
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
That's obviously fair enough -- although most of them (us) will in the end because a small step in the right direction, or even not moving at all, is preferable to a giant leap backwards into the 1950s. If the Republicans had nominated someone remotely reasonable and normal, I likely wouldn't feel this way, but... Trump. Plus, Jill Stein talking in circles to pander to the anti-vaxxers is pretty much a deal-breaker for me regardless. And I'm not going to just not vote, so...
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I think your characterization of Clinton is unfair and oversimplified, but even if it's not I am 100% confident that the actions and decisions of a President Hillary Clinton would more closely align with the preferences of Sanders and Democratic Socialists than the actions and decisions of a President Gary Johnson. Wouldn't even be remotely close. Sanders and Johnson are polar opposites on the issues in almost every sense.
Whether people want to abandon policy due to perceived character differences is obviously up to them. Although I will point out that neither Johnson or Stein has gone through the detailed character vetting that major party candidates go through. They're largely unknown in that respect, and our impressions of them would probably be very different if they had been through that. I've taken a short look at Stein, for example, and she kind of seems like the same sort of opportunistic sellout people try to paint Clinton as. Please enjoy this Boston Globe editorial from yesterday.
I'm with you on the debates, though. The threshold for participation is way too high.
Last edited by a moderator:
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Dude wants to get rid of the Federal Reserve and balance the budget in a year. He's not moderate to conservative fiscally. He is extreme and dangerous to the economy
All of that is completely reasonable. I guess what it comes down to for me is there's no one right way to look at this election. I can't fault the "lesser of two evils" crowd, especially when one of the evils is Trump. But for me personally I just can't pull the lever for Hillary.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Good and good.
Printing money all willy nilly and overspending are bad policies. Also, he'd never succeed in these two points. The Federal Reserve isn't even part of the government, so I doubt he can get rid of it. Maybe change it's power though.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
It always surprises me when people have such strong opinions about institutions they are this ignorant of.(HULK) said:
NCCommish
Footballguy
So after telling us the whole primary that only Hillary could.win the general, and swing states, guess who these establishment Senators want to campaign for them in swing states? Bernie. If I were him I'd tell them to go screw themselves. He is helping Russ Feinhold but Russ is an actual liberal.
Rove!
Footballguy
Congratulations to Bernie on the purchase of his third house
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/08/bernie-sanders-summer-house
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/08/bernie-sanders-summer-house
Parrothead
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yes, damn him for selling a house in Maine in his wife's family for 100 years and using the proceeds to buy a summer home. How dare he?
HellToupee
Footballguy
AnonymousBob
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
HellToupee
Footballguy
Glad this got bumped. I need to vent for a second; the Trump thread isn't the right place and the Hillary thread is a cesspool so this seems about right. I just want to a give a great big Eff You to everyone that voted for Hillary in the primary. Donald Trump is a uniquely awful candidate (and human being, for that matter) and his election would be a national embarrassment. Yet I still won't be able to bring myself to shed any tears if Hillary loses. Because she deserves to lose. Because everything we criticized her for is coming to pass.
Yes, the Trump conspiracy theories about her health were garbage. But don't play into their hand by lying about it. If they had disclosed her pneumonia as soon as it was diagnosed it would have been no big deal. But now. ### #### it. How did we end up with these two clowns? This country is so screwed.
Yes, the Trump conspiracy theories about her health were garbage. But don't play into their hand by lying about it. If they had disclosed her pneumonia as soon as it was diagnosed it would have been no big deal. But now. ### #### it. How did we end up with these two clowns? This country is so screwed.
Last edited by a moderator:
Similar threads
