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Ugh, I hope nobody actually believes this. Unless you want to see rationing of care with its eternal waiting lists, lack of accountability, and lack of incentives to actually produce results. This is, in essence, asking for socialized medicine akin to the VA system, which is an absolute failure.

Lots of us believe this. Hundreds of millions of Europeans believe this. Canadians believe this. Maybe the people who don't believe this need to re-examine their beliefs.

I get legitimately disgusted and angry with anyone who attempts to argue that the current status quo in healthcare is a superior option to the overwhelming majority of single payer systems in the world today. The myth of our "great" health care system is the single greatest sham perpetuated on the American people by our elite in the history of this country.

EIGHTEEN @#%^# PERCENT!!!!! When you include medicare tax with current insurance premium and throw in copays the middle class is being slaughtered with health care expense already. (I'll hit 30% easily this year)

The poor get treated in the hospital now when sick enough and the costs get passed on. I see DKA patients every day admitted to the ICU at a cost of thousands for lack of the ability to pay hundreds for a drug that costs only a few dollars to make. We crush their credit with bills they can never pay further burying them in poverty. It's asinine and their is no reasonable argument to defend a system that perpetuates this pattern.

This is the only industrialized nation on the planet where a serious illness or accident can DIRECTLY cause bankruptcy, while medical supply companies and big pharm rake in tens of billions in profit.

That's well beyond disgusting and it needs to change. Capitalism is great for luxuries and amenities..it's not the answer for everything, and certainly not for healthcare.

We need universal health care.

but look at what happened to the VA?!@~!@~!?@~!@~!?

;)

right on brudda

You laugh, but a "VA" style healthcare system is what we'll get if we go to single payer. It's a shame how woeful our care of veterans is.

Read up on it, the VA style healthcare system is pretty freaking horrible.

If only there was a candidate with a solid track record on the VA healthcare issues!!~!@!~

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Canadians benchmark time for being on the coronary artery bypass graft surgery wait list is 26 weeks. So not surprising they are generally able to meet this long time frame. Increased time on a cardiac wait list is also not surprisingly linked to worse outcomes : http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120806102132.htm

Does the waitlist time vary for

private health insurance v. Medicare?

serious question

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Canadians benchmark time for being on the coronary artery bypass graft surgery wait list is 26 weeks. So not surprising they are generally able to meet this long time frame. Increased time on a cardiac wait list is also not surprisingly linked to worse outcomes : http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120806102132.htm

So, the only way for Canadians to fix that is by scrapping national health care? Really? And scrapping it, assuming that fixes the issue you raised, would be a net positive for Canada's inhabitants?

Edited by VandyMan
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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

Its a pretty good proxy.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

4 Andorra

5 Malta

6 Singapore

7 Spain

8 Oman

9 Austria

10 Japan

11 Norway

12 Portugal

13 Monaco

14 Greece

15 Iceland

16 Luxembourg

17 Netherlands

18 United Kingdom

19 Ireland

20 Switzerland

21 Belgium

22 Colombia

23 Sweden

24 Cyprus

25 Germany

26 Saudi Arabia

27 United Arab Emirates

28 Israel

29 Morocco

30 Canada

31 Finland

32 Australia

33 Chile

34 Denmark

35 Dominica

36 Costa Rica

37 USA

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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

Its a pretty good proxy.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

4 Andorra

5 Malta

6 Singapore

7 Spain

8 Oman

9 Austria

10 Japan

11 Norway

12 Portugal

13 Monaco

14 Greece

15 Iceland

16 Luxembourg

17 Netherlands

18 United Kingdom

19 Ireland

20 Switzerland

21 Belgium

22 Colombia

23 Sweden

24 Cyprus

25 Germany

26 Saudi Arabia

27 United Arab Emirates

28 Israel

29 Morocco

30 Canada

31 Finland

32 Australia

33 Chile

34 Denmark

35 Dominica

36 Costa Rica

37 USA

Why the big rush to be like #30 Canada?

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Unofficial / Official Ben & Jerry's flavor for Bernie Sanders

Cohen’s website describes “Bernie’s Yearning” as plain mint ice cream beneath a solid layer of chocolate on top.

“The chocolate disc represents the huge majority of economic gains that gone to the top 1 percent since the end of the recession,” the flavor’s packaging states. "Beneath it, the rest of us.

Eating instructions include taking a spoon and whacking the chocolate disc “into lots of pieces”; mixing the chocolate pieces around; and sharing the result with “your fellow Americans."

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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

Its a pretty good proxy.

World Health Organization Ranking; The Worlds Health Systems

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

4 Andorra

5 Malta

6 Singapore

7 Spain

8 Oman

9 Austria

10 Japan

11 Norway

12 Portugal

13 Monaco

14 Greece

15 Iceland

16 Luxembourg

17 Netherlands

18 United Kingdom

19 Ireland

20 Switzerland

21 Belgium

22 Colombia

23 Sweden

24 Cyprus

25 Germany

26 Saudi Arabia

27 United Arab Emirates

28 Israel

29 Morocco

30 Canada

31 Finland

32 Australia

33 Chile

34 Denmark

35 Dominica

36 Costa Rica

37 USA

Why the big rush to be like #30 Canada?

Exactly lets shoot for number 1. You know like France where the government sets pricing and healthcare is delivered via Medicare for all primarily. They spend about half what we do and kick our ### in the rankings.

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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

If you remove the deaths, you also have to remove the corresponding births. Otherwise you have people living infinitely long lives, which throws off the stats.

I don't think there's much question that America has the "best" healthcare system in the world if you ignore costs and accessibility. Our health outcomes are bad anyway -- which, to me, means that we're not getting much bang for our buck. Why pay for a Ferrari when road conditions ensure that your times will suck anyway? I'm sure I could come up with a better analogy if I gave it more than the five seconds I did. The point is that we should be taking some of the money we're spending on health care and move it over to traffic safety and homicide-prevention where it might actually have an appreciable effect on national longevity stats.

In other words, I think we're way overspending on health care. The marginal costs are greater than the marginal benefits.

The Canadian and European systems seem better than ours when costs and accessibility are taken into account. Europe even has shorter wait times for many treatments (for half the cost, and with better health outcomes). The cries from the right about how terrible things would be if we magically adopted European-style health care are pretty stupid, IMO.

On the other hand, the calls from the left to magically adopt European-style health care are pretty unrealistic. There are ingrained differences between Europe and America that make any such magic impossible. America currently subsidizes drug research for the whole world. Copying Europe would mean stopping that -- which would be okay with me, but realize that the consequences may be a severe lack of new, helpful drugs. American health care professionals also make a lot more money than European health care professionals do. There's no good (politically feasible) way to make all American health care professionals take a huge pay cut. And so on.

The current system is extremely suboptimal. But there are no easy fixes that our political opponents must be evil for denying. We're stuck without great solutions. Health care policy is hard. People on both sides need to stop thinking that their solutions are obviously right and the other side is obviously stupid or evil. That's just self-delusion. Neither side has an obviously right solution.

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On Saturday night, Bernie checked into the hotel I was staying at in Dubuque, IA.

Here's a pic of his bus.

My wife and daughter saw him in the restaurant the next morning and said that he wasn't very friendly. His staff was discouraging pictures, stand offish etc. You'd think he'd be as friendly as possible.

This is the guy that flies coach and chats up other travelers. I think he is generally pretty approachable.

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Unofficial / Official Ben & Jerry's flavor for Bernie Sanders

Cohens website describes Bernies Yearning as plain mint ice cream beneath a solid layer of chocolate on top.

The chocolate disc represents the huge majority of economic gains that gone to the top 1 percent since the end of the recession, the flavors packaging states. "Beneath it, the rest of us.

Eating instructions include taking a spoon and whacking the chocolate disc into lots of pieces; mixing the chocolate pieces around; and sharing the result with your fellow Americans."

So how does Cohen feel knowing he is squarely in the middle of that rich chocolate layer representing all the horrible capitalists hoarding resources from the masses?
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Unofficial / Official Ben & Jerry's flavor for Bernie Sanders

Cohens website describes Bernies Yearning as plain mint ice cream beneath a solid layer of chocolate on top.

The chocolate disc represents the huge majority of economic gains that gone to the top 1 percent since the end of the recession, the flavors packaging states. "Beneath it, the rest of us.

Eating instructions include taking a spoon and whacking the chocolate disc into lots of pieces; mixing the chocolate pieces around; and sharing the result with your fellow Americans."

So how does Cohen feel knowing he is squarely in the middle of that rich chocolate layer representing all the horrible capitalists hoarding resources from the masses?

He's probably ok paying slightly higher taxes in order to make America a better country for everyone.

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On Saturday night, Bernie checked into the hotel I was staying at in Dubuque, IA.

Here's a pic of his bus.

My wife and daughter saw him in the restaurant the next morning and said that he wasn't very friendly. His staff was discouraging pictures, stand offish etc. You'd think he'd be as friendly as possible.

[–]superchet 91 points 20 hours ago

I was at my son's ski race in Dubuque, Iowa and Bernie checked in to our hotel last night. The Best Western on Dodge Street. My wife got his picture this morning at breakfast.

:whistle:

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On Saturday night, Bernie checked into the hotel I was staying at in Dubuque, IA.

Here's a pic of his bus.

My wife and daughter saw him in the restaurant the next morning and said that he wasn't very friendly. His staff was discouraging pictures, stand offish etc. You'd think he'd be as friendly as possible.

[–]superchet 91 points 20 hours ago

I was at my son's ski race in Dubuque, Iowa and Bernie checked in to our hotel last night. The Best Western on Dodge Street. My wife got his picture this morning at breakfast.

:whistle:

he was hedging. learned it from Tim.

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On Saturday night, Bernie checked into the hotel I was staying at in Dubuque, IA.

Here's a pic of his bus.

My wife and daughter saw him in the restaurant the next morning and said that he wasn't very friendly. His staff was discouraging pictures, stand offish etc. You'd think he'd be as friendly as possible.

[–]superchet 91 points 20 hours ago

I was at my son's ski race in Dubuque, Iowa and Bernie checked in to our hotel last night. The Best Western on Dodge Street. My wife got his picture this morning at breakfast.

:whistle:

Stalker.

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On Saturday night, Bernie checked into the hotel I was staying at in Dubuque, IA.

Here's a pic of his bus.

My wife and daughter saw him in the restaurant the next morning and said that he wasn't very friendly. His staff was discouraging pictures, stand offish etc. You'd think he'd be as friendly as possible.

[–]superchet 91 points 20 hours ago

I was at my son's ski race in Dubuque, Iowa and Bernie checked in to our hotel last night. The Best Western on Dodge Street. My wife got his picture this morning at breakfast.

:whistle:

Stalker.

lol...I saw the photo there first :D

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On Saturday night, Bernie checked into the hotel I was staying at in Dubuque, IA.

Here's a pic of his bus.

My wife and daughter saw him in the restaurant the next morning and said that he wasn't very friendly. His staff was discouraging pictures, stand offish etc. You'd think he'd be as friendly as possible.

[–]superchet 91 points 20 hours ago

I was at my son's ski race in Dubuque, Iowa and Bernie checked in to our hotel last night. The Best Western on Dodge Street. My wife got his picture this morning at breakfast.

:whistle:

Stalker.

lol...I saw the photo there first :D

Me too. I was about to accuse Chet of stealing the picture, then I noticed the username that posted it.

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On Saturday night, Bernie checked into the hotel I was staying at in Dubuque, IA.

Here's a pic of his bus.

My wife and daughter saw him in the restaurant the next morning and said that he wasn't very friendly. His staff was discouraging pictures, stand offish etc. You'd think he'd be as friendly as possible.

[–]superchet 91 points 20 hours ago

I was at my son's ski race in Dubuque, Iowa and Bernie checked in to our hotel last night. The Best Western on Dodge Street. My wife got his picture this morning at breakfast.

:whistle:

Stalker.

lol...I saw the photo there first :D

Me too. I was about to accuse Chet of stealing the picture, then I noticed the username that posted it.

someone else posted that imgur link first. Chet is that other poster you also?

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On Saturday night, Bernie checked into the hotel I was staying at in Dubuque, IA.

Here's a pic of his bus.

My wife and daughter saw him in the restaurant the next morning and said that he wasn't very friendly. His staff was discouraging pictures, stand offish etc. You'd think he'd be as friendly as possible.

[–]superchet 91 points 20 hours ago

I was at my son's ski race in Dubuque, Iowa and Bernie checked in to our hotel last night. The Best Western on Dodge Street. My wife got his picture this morning at breakfast.

:whistle:

Stalker.

lol...I saw the photo there first :D

Me too. I was about to accuse Chet of stealing the picture, then I noticed the username that posted it.

someone else posted that imgur link first. Chet is that other poster you also?

I uploaded the pic to Imgur and posted it to reddit.

No idea who's linked to it other than me.

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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

Its a pretty good proxy.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France

...

37 USA

Ditto for the WHO rankings. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

If you want to argue for single-payer, that's great. I just think you should argue based on the merits, not based on some rankings that really have little to do with quality of care.

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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

Its a pretty good proxy.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France

...

37 USA

Ditto for the WHO rankings. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

If you want to argue for single-payer, that's great. I just think you should argue based on the merits, not based on some rankings that really have little to do with quality of care.

:shrug:

WHO ranks every countries health system using several metrics - how much more apple-to-apple do you need?

Its also not about single payer. Single payer is simply one alternative to improving our health care system in a meaningful way - driving the cost down. We spend far too much national wealth on healthcare, and by that measure, we should have the highest healthcare rankings - but we do not.

The US health care system lags behind must industrialized nations by any objective measure - other than in per capita spending, where the US is first. SO we spend the most, and get the least (yes "least" is an exaggeration to make a point).

Major Findings

Quality: The indicators of quality were grouped into four categories: effective care, safe care, coordinated care, and patient-centered care. Compared with the other 10 countries, the U.S. fares best on provision and receipt of preventive and patient-centered care. While there has been some improvement in recent years, lower scores on safe and coordinated care pull the overall U.S. quality score down. Continued adoption of health information technology should enhance the ability of U.S. physicians to identify, monitor, and coordinate care for their patients, particularly those with chronic conditions.

Access: Not surprisingly—given the absence of universal coverage—people in the U.S. go without needed health care because of cost more often than people do in the other countries. Americans were the most likely to say they had access problems related to cost. Patients in the U.S. have rapid access to specialized health care services; however, they are less likely to report rapid access to primary care than people in leading countries in the study. In other countries, like Canada, patients have little to no financial burden, but experience wait times for such specialized services. There is a frequent misperception that trade-offs between universal coverage and timely access to specialized services are inevitable; however, the Netherlands, U.K., and Germany provide universal coverage with low out-of-pocket costs while maintaining quick access to specialty services.

Efficiency: On indicators of efficiency, the U.S. ranks last among the 11 countries, with the U.K. and Sweden ranking first and second, respectively. The U.S. has poor performance on measures of national health expenditures and administrative costs as well as on measures of administrative hassles, avoidable emergency room use, and duplicative medical testing. Sicker survey respondents in the U.K. and France are less likely to visit the emergency room for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor, had one been available.

Equity: The U.S. ranks a clear last on measures of equity. Americans with below-average incomes were much more likely than their counterparts in other countries to report not visiting a physician when sick; not getting a recommended test, treatment, or follow-up care; or not filling a prescription or skipping doses when needed because of costs. On each of these indicators, one-third or more lower-income adults in the U.S. said they went without needed care because of costs in the past year.

Healthy lives: The U.S. ranks last overall with poor scores on all three indicators of healthy lives—mortality amenable to medical care, infant mortality, and healthy life expectancy at age 60. The U.S. and U.K. had much higher death rates in 2007 from conditions amenable to medical care than some of the other countries, e.g., rates 25 percent to 50 percent higher than Australia and Sweden. Overall, France, Sweden, and Switzerland rank highest on healthy lives.

Edited by Sinn Fein
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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

Its a pretty good proxy.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

4 Andorra

5 Malta

6 Singapore

7 Spain

8 Oman

9 Austria

10 Japan

11 Norway

12 Portugal

13 Monaco

14 Greece

15 Iceland

16 Luxembourg

17 Netherlands

18 United Kingdom

19 Ireland

20 Switzerland

21 Belgium

22 Colombia

23 Sweden

24 Cyprus

25 Germany

26 Saudi Arabia

27 United Arab Emirates

28 Israel

29 Morocco

30 Canada

31 Finland

32 Australia

33 Chile

34 Denmark

35 Dominica

36 Costa Rica

37 USA

Talk about obtuse...how many ranked above us are NOT universal coverage states?

Canada is hardly the brightest light among universal coverage states... yet is still ahead of us in a huge number of areas, including cost

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Its weird. Canada ranks 9th in life expectancy, the US ranks 34th.

Imagine what the Canadian life expectancy would be if they had adequate healthcare...

I'm not necessarily arguing against single-payer care, but let's not pretend that the life expectancy figures are an apples-to-apples comparison. For instance, just remove deaths by auto accident and homicide (neither of which is related to quality of health care), then see what the stats say.

If you remove the deaths, you also have to remove the corresponding births. Otherwise you have people living infinitely long lives, which throws off the stats.

I don't think there's much question that America has the "best" healthcare system in the world if you ignore costs and accessibility. Our health outcomes are bad anyway -- which, to me, means that we're not getting much bang for our buck. Why pay for a Ferrari when road conditions ensure that your times will suck anyway? I'm sure I could come up with a better analogy if I gave it more than the five seconds I did. The point is that we should be taking some of the money we're spending on health care and move it over to traffic safety and homicide-prevention where it might actually have an appreciable effect on national longevity stats.

In other words, I think we're way overspending on health care. The marginal costs are greater than the marginal benefits.

The Canadian and European systems seem better than ours when costs and accessibility are taken into account. Europe even has shorter wait times for many treatments (for half the cost, and with better health outcomes). The cries from the right about how terrible things would be if we magically adopted European-style health care are pretty stupid, IMO.

On the other hand, the calls from the left to magically adopt European-style health care are pretty unrealistic. There are ingrained differences between Europe and America that make any such magic impossible. America currently subsidizes drug research for the whole world. Copying Europe would mean stopping that -- which would be okay with me, but realize that the consequences may be a severe lack of new, helpful drugs. American health care professionals also make a lot more money than European health care professionals do. There's no good (politically feasible) way to make all American health care professionals take a huge pay cut. And so on.

The current system is extremely suboptimal. But there are no easy fixes that our political opponents must be evil for denying. We're stuck without great solutions. Health care policy is hard. People on both sides need to stop thinking that their solutions are obviously right and the other side is obviously stupid or evil. That's just self-delusion. Neither side has an obviously right solution.

Good post, but remaining quagmired in what was (before ACA) the status quo was a disaster, yet that's exctly where the right has been leading.

It makes infinitely more sense to pick a European model to copy then it does to continue to argue for a couple more decades trying to find our own unique (and almost certainly more expensive) alternative.

Besides, even the best point you make, the new drugs, is more then overshadowed by the cost savings....we could easily re-invest the private research money lost and still come nowhere close to the 18% we spend now.

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I've run into several doctors from Europe, and let's just say you get what you pay for

Going to a single payer model would hurt me far more than it would help me, so my point of view is admittedly skewed.

We're going to single payer, it's an inevitability. Can we get back to talking about Bernie now?

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Noticed that Clinton's edge in the IA RCP poll average has been cut down to 0.6 points today - this after being ahead 8-9 points just a few days ago. 3 of the last 5 polls have Bernie ahead. Now, those polls do seem to have a smaller sample size and a larger margin of error than the polls favoring Hillary, so take that fwiw. Let's hope he can continue to surge this week.

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Noticed that Clinton's edge in the IA RCP poll average has been cut down to 0.6 points today - this after being ahead 8-9 points just a few days ago. 3 of the last 5 polls have Bernie ahead. Now, those polls do seem to have a smaller sample size and a larger margin of error than the polls favoring Hillary, so take that fwiw. Let's hope he can continue to surge this week.

At this point it all comes down to who shows up. If the millennials show up, Bernie wins. If they don't, Hillary wins. I think it's as simple as that.

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