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Progressive Secular Humanist Daily Digest (1 Viewer)

CowboysFromHell said:
Here's a good one.   :shock:

Saudi therapist gives advice on wife beating

No sensationalism here.  This is sick.
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The verse from the Quran, like the advice from the Saudi therapist, is morally repugnant, and a powerful demonstration of the immorality of Islam. Implicit in the teaching, and the religion, is that women are inferior to men. This is a morally untenable claim.
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The biggest issue with Islam is that the Quran is claimed to be the actual word of God, so it's difficult to argue that it was the year 600 and things have changed.  That's what many Muslims have done, but it's easy for Muslim leaders to say 'look, it says it right here that women aren't equal and can be beaten'. At least there's argument about the fallibility of the Bible having been written by men so people can create liberal religion based on it.  I don't think Islam's problem will ever be solved.

 
cstu said:
The biggest issue with Islam is that the Quran is claimed to be the actual word of God, so it's difficult to argue that it was the year 600 and things have changed.  That's what many Muslims have done, but it's easy for Muslim leaders to say 'look, it says it right here that women aren't equal and can be beaten'. At least there's argument about the fallibility of the Bible having been written by men so people can create liberal religion based on it.  I don't think Islam's problem will ever be solved.
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What I never understood is that it's supposed to be the actual word of God, but it came through a guy that went off into a cave and spoke directly to God, then wrote down what he was told.  How can people believe that?  What keeps them from believing me if I go off in a cave for a week and come back with another, similar story?

 
Jesus, this is depressing.  This is exactly what people like Bruce Dickinson are talking about.  It's easy to post articles about the biggest, goofy wackos in any religious tradition.  What possible good does that really serve?  Even in the more substantive links, like the one about the Dali Lama proposing education and not religion as the means to combat violence, the guy doesn't provide any idea of what that education would actually look like. 

I'm a secular humanist (and an atheist).  But being a secular humanist should be about more than taking the easiest of potshots about the most extreme religious beliefs.  It should be about promoting a vision of a moral society where religious belief is not necessary. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Jesus, this is depressing.  This is exactly what people like Bruce Dickinson are talking about.  It's easy to post articles about the biggest, goofy wackos in any religious tradition.  What possible good does that really serve?  Even in the more substantive links, like the one about the Dali Lama proposing education and not religion as the means to combat violence, the guy doesn't provide any idea of what that education would actually look like. 

I'm a secular humanist (and an atheist).  But being a secular humanist should be about more than taking the easiest of potshots about the most extreme religious beliefs.  It should be about promoting a vision of a moral society where religious belief is not necessary. 
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What's depressing is when we can't have a laugh at a "scientist" seriously trying to convince an audience that giants built Stonehenge without offending someone.  :P

Seriously, though.  You make a valid point.  I called out the disclaimer in the beginning about the slant the author puts on a lot of this stuff, but I think we can still have some intelligent discussion on various topics he writes on.  And, some fun too!

 
Some progress on the legal front:

Tennessee repeals protections for faith healing parents

Michelle Obama slams Mississippi's religious freedom law (not really any progress, but she says the right things here)

And then, there's this.  I never know if the Satan worshipers are serious or just trying to ruffle feathers, but the response they got here is a little scary.

Satanic black mass causes Christians to panic in Oklahoma

With my whole heart and soul, I express full, complete and vehement rejection of the satanic Black Mass scheduled at the Oklahoma City Civic Center on August 15, 2016. I urge you to cancel this event which offends more than 1 billion Catholics worldwide, 200,000 Catholics in Oklahoma and countless more God-loving Americans. Sacrilege is simply NOT free speech.
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Umm, yeah.  It kind of is.

To defile and smear the true mass, the blessed sacrament, and the mother of Jesus is not even remotely a form of religious expression, but rather a direct act of anti-religious bigotry and hatred against God.

And when government buildings open their doors and allow a satanic black mass that offends God so deeply, it begs the question: Where is our beloved nation headed? Are we still one nation under God?
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Umm, no.  Actually, that phrase should really be removed from currency, the pledge, etc.  It violates our Constitution.

 
Transgender bathroom hysteria: Christian bigots boycott Target

I'm sure this has an entire thread dedicated to it here somewhere, but here's my take:  since when do public restrooms not offer any privacy?  There are doors on the stalls (usually).  I don't have to see naked people in there, so what difference does it make what their private parts look like if they're not actually in plain view?  You go in your stall, I'll go in mine.  I don't see the problem?  As a matter of fact, that's exactly what's been going on for years, and nobody seemed to notice.  Now, suddenly, it's a problem.

 
CowboysFromHell said:
Transgender bathroom hysteria: Christian bigots boycott Target

I'm sure this has an entire thread dedicated to it here somewhere, but here's my take:  since when do public restrooms not offer any privacy?  There are doors on the stalls (usually).  I don't have to see naked people in there, so what difference does it make what their private parts look like if they're not actually in plain view?  You go in your stall, I'll go in mine.  I don't see the problem?  As a matter of fact, that's exactly what's been going on for years, and nobody seemed to notice.  Now, suddenly, it's a problem.
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I blame Caitlyn Jenner.

 
CowboysFromHell said:
What I never understood is that it's supposed to be the actual word of God, but it came through a guy that went off into a cave and spoke directly to God, then wrote down what he was told.  How can people believe that?  What keeps them from believing me if I go off in a cave for a week and come back with another, similar story?
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Deep roots, they have the advantage of numbers and children that are taught nothing else as truth since birth.  You'd have to rely solely on conversions and your ability to persuade people that you are a true prophet.  That's much harder to do in the age of information when people are vastly more educated about the world around them. But, not unheard of.

 
tonydead said:
Deep roots, they have the advantage of numbers and children that are taught nothing else as truth since birth.  You'd have to rely solely on conversions and your ability to persuade people that you are a true prophet.  That's much harder to do in the age of information when people are vastly more educated about the world around them. But, not unheard of.
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Now if that guy could just build an army and take over large, populated swaths of land, he'd have something.

 
CowboysFromHell said:
What I never understood is that it's supposed to be the actual word of God, but it came through a guy that went off into a cave and spoke directly to God, then wrote down what he was told.  How can people believe that?  What keeps them from believing me if I go off in a cave for a week and come back with another, similar story?
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Are you a charismatic con man like Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard?

 
If you've ever driven through northern Idaho you might just wonder how easy it would be to buy a piece of land up there and live off the people.  

 
CowboysFromHell said:
Kentucky awards $18 million tax break to Noah's Ark theme park

The back and forth battle continues.  We'll see if this stands up.  I'm certain there will be another lawsuit soon.

BTW, this circus is happening over in Northern Kentucky, about a 20-minute drive from where I live!   :shock:
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Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Jesus, this is depressing.  This is exactly what people like Bruce Dickinson are talking about.  It's easy to post articles about the biggest, goofy wackos in any religious tradition.  What possible good does that really serve?  Even in the more substantive links, like the one about the Dali Lama proposing education and not religion as the means to combat violence, the guy doesn't provide any idea of what that education would actually look like. 

I'm a secular humanist (and an atheist).  But being a secular humanist should be about more than taking the easiest of potshots about the most extreme religious beliefs.  It should be about promoting a vision of a moral society where religious belief is not necessary. 
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Sure the site takes potshots but see above, Ramsey.

 
cstu said:
Sure the site takes potshots but see above, Ramsey.
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You might not like it, but it seems to me that the federal court decision in that case was right.  Kentucky offers sales tax exceptions for tourism sites.  This is a tourism site.  I don't see how it's somehow a violation of the First Amendment to treat Christian-themed tourism sites the same as Disney-themed tourism sites.  It's a neutral law of general application. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
You might not like it, but it seems to me that the federal court decision in that case was right.  Kentucky offers sales tax exceptions for tourism sites.  This is a tourism site.  I don't see how it's somehow a violation of the First Amendment to treat Christian-themed tourism sites the same as Disney-themed tourism sites.  It's a neutral law of general application. 
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If I recall correctly, the issue was they had a religious test as part of their hiring practices.  They were only hiring Christians.  That was the problem.  It's either a religious park, and they can hire whoever they want, OR, they can get government tax shelters.  Not both.  Not sure how they've gotten around that this time, or if, like i said, they haven't, and another lawsuit is coming.

I'm not a lawyer, but that's what I remember from previous articles on this topic.

It's like Bill Maher recently said on his show.  The general public should not be required to fund religious people's Sunday morning hobby.  They don't fund his (picture of him hitting a bong with Woody Harrelson :lmao: )

 
Their hiring practices may be illegal down the road.   I don't see how it can be taken into account right now.  The statute doesn't hinge on that.  Down the line, the park will likely be sued for hiring discrimination.  And the park will probably try to claim a religious exemption that is either built into the law or by virtue of the state's religious freedom law.  And then a state court will have to decide whether it is incongruous for those types of laws protecting free exercise to apply to purely commercial activities.  I disagreed with the Hobby Lobby decision on that very point.  But that's the next case down the road.   Not this case.   

But even Bill Maher wouldn't say that public roads couldn't be used by a Sunday School group going on a field trip.  And that's what's happening here.  The state has a neutral law aimed at encouraging tourism.  It applies it neutrally to secular and non secular purposes. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Their hiring practices may be illegal down the road.   I don't see how it can be taken into account right now.  The statute doesn't hinge on that.  Down the line, the park will likely be sued for hiring discrimination.  And the park will probably try to claim a religious exemption that is either built into the law or by virtue of the state's religious freedom law.  And then a state court will have to decide whether it is incongruous for those types of laws protecting free exercise to apply to purely commercial activities.  I disagreed with the Hobby Lobby decision on that very point.  But that's the next case down the road.   Not this case.   

But even Bill Maher wouldn't say that public roads couldn't be used by a Sunday School group going on a field trip.  And that's what's happening here.  The state has a neutral law aimed at encouraging tourism.  It applies it neutrally to secular and non secular purposes. 
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I see a huge difference between a public roadway and a religiously themed park.

 
Isn't it a problem that the state provides support to a fundamentalist Christian theme park like this but never would provide support to a minority religion like Hinduism for any type of similar tourist attraction? 

 
Insomniac said:
Isn't it a problem that the state provides support to a fundamentalist Christian theme park like this but never would provide support to a minority religion like Hinduism for any type of similar tourist attraction? 
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The state tried to withhold the tax exemption from this theme park.  The court found that they could not do so.  Presumably that same reasoning would apply to a Hindu-themed amusement park. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Jesus, this is depressing.  This is exactly what people like Bruce Dickinson are talking about.  It's easy to post articles about the biggest, goofy wackos in any religious tradition.  What possible good does that really serve?  Even in the more substantive links, like the one about the Dali Lama proposing education and not religion as the means to combat violence, the guy doesn't provide any idea of what that education would actually look like. 

I'm a secular humanist (and an atheist).  But being a secular humanist should be about more than taking the easiest of potshots about the most extreme religious beliefs.  It should be about promoting a vision of a moral society where religious belief is not necessary. 
Click to expand...


To expose theses lunatics for what they are?  To say "remember when people in this country rarely questioned organized religion?"  Yeah, that shouldn't happen in the 21st century. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Their hiring practices may be illegal down the road.   I don't see how it can be taken into account right now.  The statute doesn't hinge on that.  Down the line, the park will likely be sued for hiring discrimination.  And the park will probably try to claim a religious exemption that is either built into the law or by virtue of the state's religious freedom law.  And then a state court will have to decide whether it is incongruous for those types of laws protecting free exercise to apply to purely commercial activities.  I disagreed with the Hobby Lobby decision on that very point.  But that's the next case down the road.   Not this case.   

But even Bill Maher wouldn't say that public roads couldn't be used by a Sunday School group going on a field trip.  And that's what's happening here.  The state has a neutral law aimed at encouraging tourism.  It applies it neutrally to secular and non secular purposes. 
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In other words they can get the tax exemption now but then later decide whether to be a religious organization and pay the money back or hire non-Christians and keep the money. My gut is on the latter.

 
cstu said:
In other words they can get the tax exemption now but then later decide whether to be a religious organization and pay the money back or hire non-Christians and keep the money. My gut is on the latter.
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They don't get the money now.  It's a sales tax exemption on merchandise they sell at the park.  The park isn't open yet. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
They don't get the money now.  It's a sales tax exemption on merchandise they sell at the park.  The park isn't open yet. 
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It sounds like it's more than just a sales tax exemption.

The lawsuit, Ark Encounter v. Stewart, comes in the wake of a decision by officials with the Kentucky Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet in December not to extend $18 million in tax incentives to Ark Encounter, an AiG theme park planned for northern Kentucky that will feature a giant rendition of Noah’s Ark.

Officials had considered giving the aid to the park to spur development and jobs. However, they pulled back when Americans United and other critics pointed out that the park was a sectarian project that intended to limit hiring to fundamentalist Christians
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Link

 
CowboysFromHell said:
It sounds like it's more than just a sales tax exemption.

Link
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It isn't.  From the Court's opinion:

The KTDA program provides “a sales tax incentive based on the Kentucky sales tax

imposed on sales generated by or arising at the tourism development project.” Ky. Rev. Stat.

§ 148.853(3)(a). The incentive allows an approved project to recover the lesser of either its total

amount of sales tax liability or up to twenty-five percent (25%) of its approved development

costs over a period of ten (10) years. § 148.853(3)(b). The Act specifically states that these

incentives “are proper governmental and public purposes for which public moneys may be

expended,” and also states that “the creation or expansion of tourism development projects is of

paramount importance mandating that the provisions [of the Act] be liberally construed and

applied in order to advance public purposes.” § 148.853(1)(c)-(d).
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Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
It isn't.  From the Court's opinion:
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OK.  Thx.  Like you said, I may not like it, but that's the deal.  In particular, I don't like that last part.  What court talked themselves into saying the Ark Park was helping "advance public purposes"???  Seems more like it's advancing the purpose of a very small minority of radical Christians.  I'm with Insomniac on that one.  No way in hell this ever goes through if its a shrine to Muhammad.

 
CowboysFromHell said:
OK.  Thx.  Like you said, I may not like it, but that's the deal.  In particular, I don't like that last part.  What court talked themselves into saying the Ark Park was helping "advance public purposes"???  Seems more like it's advancing the purpose of a very small minority of radical Christians.  I'm with Insomniac on that one.  No way in hell this ever goes through if its a shrine to Muhammad.
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The statute isn't referring to the message of the attraction.  It's referring to creating jobs for Kentucky citizens and bringing in tourists to spend money in Kentucky.  It's a neutral criteria that the petitioner needs to show with data.  Distilleries in Kentucky have qualified for the tax provision.  Not because making sweet, sweet bourbon advances public purposes, but because Distillery tours bring tourists into the state and create jobs.  

This is one reason why I advise anyone who gets upset about a court decision to try to find the decision and read it first.  Don't rely on media accounts.  The media is terrible at reporting on legal issues.  Don't rely on press releases from public interest law organizations.  You're not going to get an even-handed presentation of the issue from them.  That's certainly true of Americans for the Separation of Church and State.  I'm not picking on them.  I've worked with them before and even know Barry Lynn's daughter from law school.  That's just the way these organizations work.  They're doing PR.  

 
I like some of the stuff patheos reports on.  They highlight some interesting secular news, along with a lot of ridiculous stuff from the wingnut patrol.  Agree with scooby though, I'm always skeptical of reporting on legal decisions.  It's even worse than reporting on published scientific research.  The headlines are nearly always sensational.

 
I wonder what would happen if I went and applied for a job at the Ark Park?  Like I said, i'm 20 minutes from there.  Maybe I'll give it a go and report back...

I can even start a new thread:  "My time as an Atheist Tour Guide on the Biblical Boat Ride"

 
According to Al-Saqaby, before beating his wife, a good Muslim husband will first remind her of “her duties, according to Allah.”

If that doesn’t work, the husband is then instructed to withhold sex from his wife. 
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My wife would view this as a reward....

 
CowboysFromHell said:
What I never understood is that it's supposed to be the actual word of God, but it came through a guy that went off into a cave and spoke directly to God, then wrote down what he was told.  How can people believe that?  What keeps them from believing me if I go off in a cave for a week and come back with another, similar story?
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In a nutshell, that's the question posed by Salmon Rushdie in The Satanic Verses.

 
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