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Otis fad diet thread — Also rowing, yoga and pillows (and let’s not be fat)


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I’m on vacation and ate and drank everything yesterday. But the one takeaway so far is how much farther I have to go. I’m nowhere near where I need to be. I definitely need to lose another 20. And I’m not going to worry about it too much this week, but I’m coming back with a vengeance and for the long haul when I get home. It’ll happen. We’ll get there. Just will take some time (not like cash diet weeks time; but new lifestyle months time). 

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16 hours ago, bostonfred said:

This was my first MAF run 24 days ago. I was bummed about giving up my sub 29 minute pace. 

I just finished a 5k in 26:57 and was disappointed because I didn't feel great and I slowed way down about 2/3 of the way through.  End of next week will be one month and i will be shooting for sub 26. 

BTW just finished 2.5 miles at about your original 5K pace.  PAINFULLY SLOW but kept that HR down.  10 more weeks of this - looking ahead at the end goal!

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15 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

BTW just finished 2.5 miles at about your original 5K pace.  PAINFULLY SLOW but kept that HR down.  10 more weeks of this - looking ahead at the end goal!

Did it feel different?

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13 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

BTW just finished 2.5 miles at about your original 5K pace.  PAINFULLY SLOW but kept that HR down.  10 more weeks of this - looking ahead at the end goal!

I've been doing one tempo run per week (for me, 7.3mph because I'm targeting a 26 minute 5k) but follow your training plan.  What I've seen in a bunch of these is something like this https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/15k-10-mile-training/intermediate-15k-10-mile/

This is the intermediate plan and assumes that you have more of a base than you actually do. And even then he only suggests doing 6 tempo runs and two races in the twelve weeks leading up to the race.  All the rest are supposed to be at a "conversational pace" which is about 65 to 75 percent of max heart rate - in other words, MAF pace.  

I'd be interested in seeing your results the next couple weeks. And maybe a little less judgy than saying my original 5k pace was all caps painfully slow because that hurt a little.  

 

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3 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Did it feel different?

Yeah it felt like I was barely moving.  But I was running (jogging) at a pace where I could have had a conversation.

What confuses me is that I’m not doing this cold turkey.  I’ve been running for years (usually at least 2 days a week).  Why is my HR not better? However I always run at around a 6.2-7.1 pace.  It’s possible that I don’t actually see improvement until sustaining this MAF pace for a long period of time.

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The training plan I’m on has me running Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday (long run day) with cross training, strength and stretching in the off days.  I gradually bump up distance each week.

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2 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

I've been doing one tempo run per week (for me, 7.3mph because I'm targeting a 26 minute 5k) but follow your training plan.  What I've seen in a bunch of these is something like this https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/15k-10-mile-training/intermediate-15k-10-mile/

This is the intermediate plan and assumes that you have more of a base than you actually do. And even then he only suggests doing 6 tempo runs and two races in the twelve weeks leading up to the race.  All the rest are supposed to be at a "conversational pace" which is about 65 to 75 percent of max heart rate - in other words, MAF pace.  

I'd be interested in seeing your results the next couple weeks. And maybe a little less judgy than saying my original 5k pace was all caps painfully slow because that hurt a little.  

 

BF, good stuff.

About the bolded, we are all different ages, sizes, speeds and experience levels. To expect all of us to be the same isn't reasonable. I'm nowhere near anything resembling fast and yet I'm still faster than a lot of others. Some of the guys that post in the running thread talk about recovery paces that I can't even run a 5K race in. But everyone should be able to post how something feels TO THEM without it impacting or bothering someone else. It's not about being judgy. We are all rooting for each other. 

You've brought some great stuff here. I know it may not be easy, but I really would suggest not comparing yourself to anyone else here in terms of speed or weight loss or any of it. Someone once said a while ago and I remind myself of it often when thinking about how I'm doing. There's always someone faster than you and there's always someone slower. 

Whatever you're able to do, it's 100x better than the all those people at home on their couch doing none of it.

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6 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

Yeah it felt like I was barely moving.  But I was running (jogging) at a pace where I could have had a conversation.

What confuses me is that I’m not doing this cold turkey.  I’ve been running for years (usually at least 2 days a week).  Why is my HR not better? However I always run at around a 6.2-7.1 pace.  It’s possible that I don’t actually see improvement until sustaining this MAF pace for a long period of time.

MAF has opened my eyes on the bolded. I didn’t really understand it before. Then there have been days in recent weeks where I’m rowing MAF, HR around 140, and an hour in my kids bust into the laundry room and start talking to me about something, and I can actually have a conversation.  And I remember thinking “wow I don’t sound out of breath at all.”  And that’s where the light bulb came on for me about the bolded above. 
 

MAF is life changing. Cardio habits are life changing. I’m still a flab guy, but damnit if I won’t be an ab guy by June. 

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3 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

BF, good stuff.

About the bolded, we are all different ages, sizes, speeds and experience levels. To expect all of us to be the same isn't reasonable. I'm nowhere near anything resembling fast and yet I'm still faster than a lot of others. Some of the guys that post in the running thread talk about recovery paces that I can't even run a 5K race in. But everyone should be able to post how something feels TO THEM without it impacting or bothering someone else. It's not about being judgy. We are all rooting for each other. 

You've brought some great stuff here. I know it may not be easy, but I really would suggest not comparing yourself to anyone else here in terms of speed or weight loss or any of it. Someone once said a while ago and I remind myself of it often when thinking about how I'm doing. There's always someone faster than you and there's always someone slower. 

Whatever you're able to do, it's 100x better than the all those people at home on their couch doing none of it.

Love this. 

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And BF, remember we’re in this for the long game. Your pace today isn’t what matters. But if you’re on a good training track — and it sounds like you have made amazing progress in a short time — it’s your pace in 6 months or a year from now that matters.  Think about that guy’s pace, and keep doing what you’re doing. 

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15 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

Yeah it felt like I was barely moving.  But I was running (jogging) at a pace where I could have had a conversation.

What confuses me is that I’m not doing this cold turkey.  I’ve been running for years (usually at least 2 days a week).  Why is my HR not better? However I always run at around a 6.2-7.1 pace.  It’s possible that I don’t actually see improvement until sustaining this MAF pace for a long period of time.

Should probably take this to the running thread, but.....

You probably never built that aerobic base. Or at least not developed it very well. My wife has been running for decades and never learned to run slow until I started running 2 years ago and taught her what I learned from the guys here. Her racing times in her mid 40s are plummeting as a result. She does easy runs now that was a race pace for her just 5 years ago. Even I, with the knowledge of going slow, didn't realize what REALLY going slow enough was until recently and it's made a huge difference over just a few months.

As for MAF gains, BFs gains are impressive given how quickly he is improving. I didn't see near that improvement for much longer. Took me a couple months to see what he's seeing in a couple weeks. But, MAF isn't a quick fix. It's meant to be done consistently and over the course of 3-6 months (or until you plateau). And you should be aiming for at least 30 minutes of it. Stick with it and you'll see gains.

ETA -- Also, running near the same speed all the time doesn't get you to your full potential. Your slow runs (most of your runs) need to be slower than your 6.2-7.1 range and your fast runs (20%) need to be faster than that range. And you need to run more. That will improve your speed and your HR.

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34 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

 And maybe a little less judgy than saying my original 5k pace was all caps painfully slow because that hurt a little.  

 

Ha - no offense intended.  That comment was more in reference to the pace compared to what I'm used to running (which seems to have been the wrong pace to begin with).

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10 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

Ha - no offense intended.  That comment was more in reference to the pace compared to what I'm used to running (which seems to have been the wrong pace to begin with).

I know i just thought it was funny that you're like "i had to run like bostonfred and it was PAINFULLY SLOW HOW DO YOU LIVE LIKE THIS". Then everyone started telling me it was ok to be slow like i needed a pep talk.  Even ####### otis. What the ####.  

When you say my 5k pace do you mean like 4.7mph (my first maf 5k) or 6.1 (what I'm doing now on MAF runs)  or 7.3 (my goal)?  Since you said you've been in the 6 to 7mph range i assumed you mean more like 4.7mph which is, in fact,  PAINFULLY SLOW. I would be pretty shocked if you meant 7.3 since that's faster than your non MAF training pace had been but who knows. 

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24 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

I know i just thought it was funny that you're like "i had to run like bostonfred and it was PAINFULLY SLOW HOW DO YOU LIVE LIKE THIS". Then everyone started telling me it was ok to be slow like i needed a pep talk.  Even ####### otis. What the ####.  

When you say my 5k pace do you mean like 4.7mph (my first maf 5k) or 6.1 (what I'm doing now on MAF runs)  or 7.3 (my goal)?  Since you said you've been in the 6 to 7mph range i assumed you mean more like 4.7mph which is, in fact,  PAINFULLY SLOW. I would be pretty shocked if you meant 7.3 since that's faster than your non MAF training pace had been but who knows. 

My run today was around the 4.7 mph pace.  Any faster than that and my HR spiked.

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@fred_1_15301 @munga30

Tests i ran on myself as i was getting used to maf and monitoring my heart rate with a goal of staying under 136

1) when i start out my heart rate doesn't go up to 136 right away unless I'm going "too fast"

2) if i go "slow" like 4.7 mph and run for a while, my heart rate will gradually climb to 136. 

3) if i go a little faster like 5 mph and run for a while, my heart rate will gradually climb too, but a little faster

4) after a few maf runs i found that i could start a little faster and last about as long as i did when i started at 4.7. 

5) However if i start "too fast", so my heart rate is up above my target early on, i end up having to slow down much more. In other words, it doesn't matter much if i run 5.3 or 4.7 to start, because either way I'll stay under my target for a couple miles and then hit it.  But starting at 7mph would immediately put me over 145 and dropping down to 5.3 still might keep me around 145. So you can tinker with starting a little faster each time, just don't try to increase too much or you'll have a crappy run. 

6) i am seeing improvement training at 130 to 140bpm so I'm not aiming for 126 to 136 even though the official formula is 180 minus age (44) equals 136 max. 

7) once a week I increase my longest run by about 10 percent over the previous week, so I've gone from 3.1 to 3.5, then 4, then 4.5 miles this last weekend.  My long run is at maf pace until the final stretch where I have been going hard because i want to.

8 Once or twice a week i do a tempo run to see how fast i can do a full 5k..

9) Once or twice a week I take a rest day from running. I might do something else like rowing or lifting but not running.  

So for me now i start at a pace which gets my heart rate into the mid 120s to start and seems to level off in the mid to high 130s. Then as soon as i either hit 141, or find myself leveling off at 140, i drop down by .1mph at a time until it levels off in that 136 range. 

I don't know if this is right so if you do something different (or the same) please post your results.  

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Thanks for the tips BF.  I think what I'm going to start doing is walk half a mile before my run (at least at the beginning until I figure out how to keep my HR level).  I started running today at what I thought was a slow pace and it didn't take long for my HR to spike to a point where I had to almost walk to get it down.  It seems like you've seen improvements almost immediately.  I'm not sure if I'll see the same but I'll take even gradual improvements TBH.  

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Exercise brings out the righteous, my way is the best way, any other way sucks, in some people. There’s also a really stupid machismo aspect to it. 

I say, if you’re doing something, anything, you’re ahead of most.  Don’t let what others say, about your regimen, bother you.

I find it amusing at the gym, when dudes are all, MAXXED OUT, NOEXPLODE, and I’m just chilling with my super light weights.  Focused on heart rate, form, and technique.

Hot yoga tomorrow, with all the ladies. Love it. Who’s in?

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5 hours ago, DA RAIDERS said:

Hot yoga tomorrow, with all the ladies. Love it. Who’s in?

If there's one thing I've noticed it's this: the hotter the room, the hotter the ladies. Amirite? 

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33 minutes ago, Zerp said:

If there's one thing I've noticed it's this: the hotter the room, the hotter the ladies. Amirite? 

Yes sir. The heat weans out the less serious. And living in the land of milk and honey , it’s ridiculous 

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Down 20 pounds in just over 4 weeks. Intermittent fasting, eat between 4 and 9. Eat noting out of a box. No sugar soda. Limited carbs though I don’t count them just avoid carb bombs like potatoes and bread. And I walk 5 miles a day with the dog. Going to suck today because it is -2 below in MN now. 

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Hey guys, I've been doing my own thing after failing in an Otis-like manner for the last decade. Ironically, I decided it was time to screw all the programs and just eat healthy and consistently exercise as a general rule.  No 90-day plans, no hardcore keto, etc.

I've got the weight training plan and the general way I'm going to eat down.  But I have some questions on MAF:

1. For a running beginner, how long should I do cardio from the beginning?

2. I'm doing IF.  What are recommendations for WHEN to do MAF?  I do 16-8 or 18-6 daily.  Should I do the training in morning while fasted?  Or is it better to do while you've got fuel?

 

Thanks!

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14 minutes ago, shader said:

Hey guys, I've been doing my own thing after failing in an Otis-like manner for the last decade. Ironically, I decided it was time to screw all the programs and just eat healthy and consistently exercise as a general rule.  No 90-day plans, no hardcore keto, etc.

I've got the weight training plan and the general way I'm going to eat down.  But I have some questions on MAF:

1. For a running beginner, how long should I do cardio from the beginning?

2. I'm doing IF.  What are recommendations for WHEN to do MAF?  I do 16-8 or 18-6 daily.  Should I do the training in morning while fasted?  Or is it better to do while you've got fuel?

 

Thanks!

I'm not an expert, and this is not medical advice or training advice. Consult your doctor before beginning or modifying diet and exercise programs.  

1. It's hard to know what a "beginner" is because you might be in great shape and walk miles every day and already have some experience running or be fairly sedentary in an office job and you've never run in your life.  Assuming you're closer to the latter, you should probably do a mix of walking and running, with more walking than running at first, if you don't have a base built up.  Google the couch to 5k application for a good beginner plan, or find an app that can track it for you. You should start with long walks to build your endurance and muscles that you don't use much, then mix in short runs so it's a few minutes of walking, a minute of running, a minute of walking, etc.  

If you've been running already then you might want to continue doing your normal distance and increase by about ten percent per week. In my case, i had already done the equivalent of couch to 5k, and was routinely running most of the 5k but stopping and walking towards the end. When i switched to MAF i stayed with the 5k distance, just slower, and without any stopping and walking. Then i increased from 3.1 miles (5k) to 3.5, then a week later to 4, then 4.5, and I'll do 5 miles next weekend.  Conventional wisdom is that anything more than ten percent and you're asking for injuries. 

2. My understanding is that MAF exercise will be in your aerobic heat rate zone which burns more existing fat than your glycogen (fuel reserves, mostly from carbs) so it probably doesn't matter much whether you're eating first or later unless you find yourself unable to keep your heart rate down.  (It's frustrating at first to stay in the aerobic zone.)

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15 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Hey you rowers, what's the calories/hr rate you are burning? I did 10 mins at the gym yesterday and was only doing 700 / hr, and that wasn't that much fun.

Light to moderate effort is about 12 calories per minute for rowing so 700 per hour sounds about right.  

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12 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Hey you rowers, what's the calories/hr rate you are burning? I did 10 mins at the gym yesterday and was only doing 700 / hr, and that wasn't that much fun.

Probably that’s right. I recently did 1,416 calories at 1:46 MAF, which is I guess a little less than 700 calories per hour. 
 

ETA Duh, math is hard, My half marathon pace was actually a little more than 700 calories per hour. 

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1 hour ago, Otis said:

Probably that’s right. I recently did 1,416 calories at 1:46 MAF, which is I guess a little less than 700 calories per hour. 

You’re a professional with a wife and kids.  Honest question here and not at all meant to be insulting.  How the hell do you have time to exercise for nearly 2 hours?  Are you doing it late at night or very early in the morning?

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Sunday long run of 4.5 miles. Didn't sleep too well but not terribly.  

Monday tempo run 5k in just under 27 minutes. Terrible night of sleep. 

Tuesday recovery run 5k in just over 37 minutes. Stayed under 135 and ran very easy. Cheated on diet and went over even my maintenance calories for the day. Not good.  Another off night of sleep. 

Wednesday MAF run 4 miles in just under 44 minutes.  Kept my calories down enough to undo yesterday's mistakes but had cravings all day. Need to catch up on sleep because it kills my willpower and i feel it so much more with the exercise.  

 

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48 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

You’re a professional with a wife and kids.  Honest question here and not at all meant to be insulting.  How the hell do you have time to exercise for nearly 2 hours?  Are you doing it late at night or very early in the morning?

Usually over the weekend. Occassionally a half day. And if I am in a jam and can swing it immediately after work. Very rare I try to wedge out more than an hour and a half though.

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8 hours ago, fred_1_15301 said:

You’re a professional with a wife and kids.  Honest question here and not at all meant to be insulting.  How the hell do you have time to exercise for nearly 2 hours?  Are you doing it late at night or very early in the morning?

Otis gets up at 5 am (but the 2 hour row was a one off)

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9 hours ago, fred_1_15301 said:

You’re a professional with a wife and kids.  Honest question here and not at all meant to be insulting.  How the hell do you have time to exercise for nearly 2 hours?  Are you doing it late at night or very early in the morning?

That’s a rare one, but it was on a Saturday morning. Lately we have been trying to cover the kids for each other on the weekend while we exercise — my wife will run to barre class, and I’ll row.  But on normal weekdays it’s an hour or less — I just wake up at 4:45 every day to make it happen before the youngest wakes up. 

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2 hours ago, Otis said:

Lately we have been trying to cover the kids for each other on the weekend while we exercise — my wife will run to barre class, and I’ll row.  

The most important component, a significant other that supports the habit and shows it via their actions. 

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1 minute ago, MAC_32 said:

The most important component, a significant other that supports the habit and shows it via their actions. 

 :goodposting:

No doubt.  On top of my running/workouts, my wife does some running, yoga, and tennis.  We have to juggle, but for the most part have our schedules laid out.  If either wasnt supportive, it would be nearly impossible to put in any sort of productive time or have any normalcy in the schedule.

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Seven weeks down. Had a "relaxed diet" weekend, but only one truly gluttonous meal. Been very active. Not sure what the end-game is here. Feeling much better than December, but still seeing a flabby guy in the mirror. Gonna try to keep it rolling until spring I guess and see where we wind up. 

1/2 - 184 lbs

1/9 - 179.8 lbs

1/16 - 177.4 lbs

1/23 - 176.0 lbs

1/30 - 174.8 lbs

2/6 - 172.4 lbs

2/13 - 172.2 lbs

2/20 - 171.0 lbs

My food recommendation for the week is Schmidts 647 Bread. Pile it up with turkey, onions, banana peppers and mustard. Maybe have a bag of WW BBQ crisps and/or a banana with it if Im really hungry. For a low-cal lunch, its PFG. :thumbup:

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15lbs down in the first ~2wks. Intermittent Fasting is legit, and pretty damn easy.

Sober February definitely help accelerate the losses. Definitely going to stick with IF after Sober Feb ends on March 6th. 

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4 hours ago, [icon] said:

15lbs down in the first ~2wks. Intermittent Fasting is legit, and pretty damn easy.

Sober February definitely help accelerate the losses. Definitely going to stick with IF after Sober Feb ends on March 6th. 

I've never had results with IF, but I've always had cream with coffee.  My idea of a "little bit of cream" may be way off.  Upon making this brilliant discovery (i should have realized it sooner), I've switched to black coffee.  Really sucked for the first few days and I'm growing to somewhat enjoy it.  

Bottom line, four days into my first time doing IF without cream basically killing the fast.  I really enjoy it and it definitely seems to have helped the weight loss.

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5 hours ago, E-Z Glider said:

Seven weeks down. Had a "relaxed diet" weekend, but only one truly gluttonous meal. Been very active. Not sure what the end-game is here. Feeling much better than December, but still seeing a flabby guy in the mirror. Gonna try to keep it rolling until spring I guess and see where we wind up. 

1/2 - 184 lbs

1/9 - 179.8 lbs

1/16 - 177.4 lbs

1/23 - 176.0 lbs

1/30 - 174.8 lbs

2/6 - 172.4 lbs

2/13 - 172.2 lbs

2/20 - 171.0 lbs

My food recommendation for the week is Schmidts 647 Bread. Pile it up with turkey, onions, banana peppers and mustard. Maybe have a bag of WW BBQ crisps and/or a banana with it if Im really hungry. For a low-cal lunch, its PFG. :thumbup:

How tall are you?

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Since I last posted here (about two weeks ago, prior to an unplanned board absence), my weight has stayed exactly the same, despite lots of exercise and sticking to the diet pretty well.

I am telling myself that I am still losing fat, but am offsetting it with muscle gains. I mean, I hope that's true, but I won't know until I get the body fat checked again.

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On 2/20/2020 at 5:31 PM, DA RAIDERS said:

182.2 in the quest for the 170’s. Lost a little over a pound. 

Mostly cardio, hot yoga, very little weights. Still dealing with a forearm injury. Also, still eating everything. No booze though. 

What is your cardio?  Your story and mine are basically the same.  Then I added 2 spin classes a week.  I really like how easy it is on my hips, knees and ankles.  Steadily droppped 2 belt notches in 3 months.  Anyway, just a suggestion.  

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33 minutes ago, Zerp said:

What is your cardio?  Your story and mine are basically the same.  Then I added 2 spin classes a week.  I really like how easy it is on my hips, knees and ankles.  Steadily droppped 2 belt notches in 3 months.  Anyway, just a suggestion.  

I mix it up. Everything except running, which my knees don’t like. I’ve done spin, but don’t really like it.  

I’m not really after any major weight loss.  I’m in pretty good shape.  Just seeing if no booze and no other changes, gets me into the 170’s  

 

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On 2/18/2020 at 2:08 PM, DA RAIDERS said:

Exercise brings out the righteous, my way is the best way, any other way sucks, in some people. There’s also a really stupid machismo aspect to it. 

I say, if you’re doing something, anything, you’re ahead of most.  Don’t let what others say, about your regimen, bother you.

I find it amusing at the gym, when dudes are all, MAXXED OUT, NOEXPLODE, and I’m just chilling with my super light weights.  Focused on heart rate, form, and technique.

Hot yoga tomorrow, with all the ladies. Love it. Who’s in?

I am now one of those guys, though I try not to be obnoxious about it. :bag:

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  • Otis changed the title to Otis fad diet thread — Also rowing, yoga and pillows (and let’s not be fat)

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