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if black lives mattered really cared about black lives dont you think they would do something about the black on black crime in chicago and other cities?

All you can do is treat others how you'd like to be treated. If everyone did that, we'd be all set. Everything else is just words.

My take on the "All Lives Matter" and "Kneeling is disrespecting the flag and country and military" are 1. It's selfish. Those opinions are fine, but this isn't the time and place to express that

On 2/23/2021 at 7:24 AM, FairWarning said:

One of Pinky’s links above suggested that 75% of the single fathers are around. My BS meter went off at that point. 

What do they mean by "around"?  Like, being in the same state?  :lol:

The single mother rate in the black community, IMO, is THE primary reason why we have so many wayward black teens who grow up to be wayward black men.  Men need a male role model and if dad ain't around then it's the gangs.  Women just literally cannot fill that void despite how hard they may try.  Young men are coming out absolutely wrecked after being raised by single mothers.

We need to stop glorifying single mothers and putting them on a pedestal.  We also need to make the men accountable, but that appears to be black issue since if you're white you can't even point to the data without being called a racist.

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12 hours ago, FairWarning said:

If the father (or mother) isn’t around, the other is working 2 jobs, who is the kid’s role model in those times they need to be set straight?  If the BLM wants to be taken seriously, they address these issues.  Solve these and there are a lot less George Floyd issues.  

So having a father around will stop unconscious bias, racial profiling and ultimately unarmed black people from being killed by police?  Is that what you are saying? 

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9 hours ago, FairWarning said:

I hope part of the deal is disbar them - and no student loan bailout. 

Heard it was a position in Biden’s cabinet.  

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12 minutes ago, PinkydaPimp said:

So having a father around will stop unconscious bias, racial profiling and ultimately unarmed black people from being killed by police?  Is that what you are saying? 

I did take time to read the links you posted this morning, I was pretty busy at the time.  I don't agree with some of it, but thats ok.  

If you think thats what I said, then we are probably at an impasse and we'll call it a day.

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12 hours ago, djmich said:

Pinky, what do you think is the root issue?  Do you think one root issue is >50% of the total issue or is it a collection of primary issues (interested in your top 3-4).  Thanks

I think it is a collection of issues, most of which fall under systemic racism that has impacted black communities since slavery and NEVER been addressed.  Many people want to just ignore it and say move on yet nothing has ever been done to truly address this.    Systemic racism keeps people poor, keeps them concentrated in ghettos.  Places with poor education, profiling by police, low upward mobility, mass incarceration, red lining, etc.  I posted a link earlier that confirms even two parent black households significantly trail their white counterparts.  So fixing that does NOT solve our over arching problem.  They will still have these other issues above. 

Single parent families are rising for everyone.  Studies have shown that while two parents may not be in the same home, black kids do often have two parents in their lives.  Often due to proximity of where they live, caused by the fact that an overwhelmingly large number of black people are forced to live in the same areas, often in poverty when compared to their peers.  Now, thats not to say it isnt an issue, but it doesnt help that a large number of black men are in prison which of course means they wont be around. 
 

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22 minutes ago, PinkydaPimp said:

So having a father around will stop unconscious bias, racial profiling and ultimately unarmed black people from being killed by police?  Is that what you are saying? 

No, I believe what he said was, "If the father (or mother) isn’t around, the other is working 2 jobs, who is the kid’s role model in those times they need to be set straight?  If the BLM wants to be taken seriously, they address these issues.  Solve these and there are a lot less George Floyd issues." 

It helps to focus on what people say, not what you think they said. 

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6 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I did take time to read the links you posted this morning, I was pretty busy at the time.  I don't agree with some of it, but thats ok.  

If you think thats what I said, then we are probably at an impasse and we'll call it a day.

i appreciate you reading the links.  But im just trying to understand if that is your position. 

you wrote:
 

Quote

If the father (or mother) isn’t around, the other is working 2 jobs, who is the kid’s role model in those times they need to be set straight?  If the BLM wants to be taken seriously, they address these issues.  Solve these and there are a lot less George Floyd issues.  

Maybe im missing the point but you seem to insinuating that if the father is around it will "solve these" George floyd issues.  Am i missing your point? 

And again, being a single parent household is not the same as the parent isnt around.  two different things.

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3 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

No, I believe what he said was, "If the father (or mother) isn’t around, the other is working 2 jobs, who is the kid’s role model in those times they need to be set straight?  If the BLM wants to be taken seriously, they address these issues.  Solve these and there are a lot less George Floyd issues." 

It helps to focus on what people say, not what you think they said. 

Per my previous post:
 

Quote

Recent data published by the Center for Disease Control reveal that African-American fathers spend more time in their children's day-to-day lives than dads from other racial groups, defying stereotypes about black fatherhood. The Pew Research Center has found similar evidence that black dads don't differ from white dads in any significant way, and that there isn't the expected disparity found in so many other reports. Although black fathers are more likely to live in separate households, Pew estimates that 67 percent of black dads who don’t live with their kids see them at least once a month, compared to 59 percent of white dads and just 32 percent of Hispanic dads.

Also there are likely other family memebers around to be role models, grandma, aunts and uncles.  Again due to the fact families often live in close proximity.

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11 minutes ago, PinkydaPimp said:

I think it is a collection of issues, most of which fall under systemic racism that has impacted black communities since slavery and NEVER been addressed.  Many people want to just ignore it and say move on yet nothing has ever been done to truly address this.    Systemic racism keeps people poor, keeps them concentrated in ghettos.  Places with poor education, profiling by police, low upward mobility, mass incarceration, red lining, etc.  I posted a link earlier that confirms even two parent black households significantly trail their white counterparts.  So fixing that does NOT solve our over arching problem.  They will still have these other issues above. 

Single parent families are rising for everyone.  Studies have shown that while two parents may not be in the same home, black kids do often have two parents in their lives.  Often due to proximity of where they live, caused by the fact that an overwhelmingly large number of black people are forced to live in the same areas, often in poverty when compared to their peers.  Now, thats not to say it isnt an issue, but it doesnt help that a large number of black men are in prison which of course means they wont be around. 
 

Thanks, appreciate the thoughtful response.

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8 hours ago, PinkydaPimp said:

Per my previous post:
 

Also there are likely other family memebers around to be role models, grandma, aunts and uncles.  Again due to the fact families often live in close proximity.

I think that is a BS study.  The proof is out in the streets.  grandmas aunts and uncles is like having the substitute teacher scold you.  

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Pimpy - we are 6-7 generations roughly removed from slavery now.  When will that stop being an excuse?  Successfully blacks don’t use it.  People want to go around blaming slavery, systemic racism, racist cops - those are crutches not to get ahead in 2021. I would hire anyone who took the initiative to improve themselves and my business.  Most others would also.  

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

Pimpy - we are 6-7 generations roughly removed from slavery now.  When will that stop being an excuse?  Successfully blacks don’t use it.  People want to go around blaming slavery, systemic racism, racist cops - those are crutches not to get ahead in 2021. I would hire anyone who took the initiative to improve themselves and my business.  Most others would also.  

No one wants to blame slavery.  But it’s a fact.  Do you know when the last school was desegregated?  A few years ago.  What about redlining? There are too many things to list btw and I’ve spoken about them in this thread.

 Everything wasn’t just equal when slavery ended nor is it today.  The issues were never addressed and as a result we see the wealth gap and education gap and other disparities we do today.  This country has worked very hard to ensure that and all black folks ask is for equity.  Not an excuse or a crutch.  Maybe if people like you acknowledged historical facts and the disadvantage black folks still have we can work towards a solution and it wouldn’t have to be brought up.  
 

Must be nice to not have to worry about this stuff. Btw I’m a “successful black”.  While i don’t use it as a crutch as most don’t it doesn’t mean I’m not going to call out these issues.  Cheers!

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So when is slavery not a factor anymore?   Redlining shouldn’t occur today with conscious corporations and the PR hit they would take.   Education is the number one thing that can take care of this.  I Appreciate the responses BTW.   

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

Pimpy - we are 6-7 generations roughly removed from slavery now.  When will that stop being an excuse?  Successfully blacks don’t use it.  People want to go around blaming slavery, systemic racism, racist cops - those are crutches not to get ahead in 2021. I would hire anyone who took the initiative to improve themselves and my business.  Most others would also.  

FW, I've had some decent back and forth with you in the past.   Just pointing out that you seem to be doing that common thing around here about this discussion that others (most the core I have on ignore), in that you put it through your eyes for one (I would hire anybody), and make the mistake of thinking just because something like slavery is gone, doesn't mean the attitudes, policies, and thinking disappeared at that moment.  

You say 6-7 generations from slavery, but I would guess that a lot of us have grandparents and parents that still harbor some of these thoughts.  We have parents and grandparents that went through segregation and Jim Crow.   That's not 6-7 generations, and those are not things that go away country-wide with the snap of a finger.  

 

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28 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

So when is slavery not a factor anymore?   Redlining shouldn’t occur today with conscious corporations and the PR hit they would take.   Education is the number one thing that can take care of this.  I Appreciate the responses BTW.   

It's not slavery - its the lingering attitudes and policies.  

Even if you say redlining shouldn't occur today, Binky just showed you an article that talks about how it was still a thing 20 years ago and could still be happening in other forms today.   Last school to desegregate was 2016?  that's sickening.  

Even if we say there has been 0 cases of these things for 30 years (which I am not saying)  - do you acknowledge that it was happening?  How long do you think it should take for a group of people to recover when we are talking about thinks like education, how neighborhoods are created, the lack of wealth they were able to accumulate, etc, etc..  ?  

 

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34 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

FW, I've had some decent back and forth with you in the past.   Just pointing out that you seem to be doing that common thing around here about this discussion that others (most the core I have on ignore), in that you put it through your eyes for one (I would hire anybody), and make the mistake of thinking just because something like slavery is gone, doesn't mean the attitudes, policies, and thinking disappeared at that moment.  

You say 6-7 generations from slavery, but I would guess that a lot of us have grandparents and parents that still harbor some of these thoughts.  We have parents and grandparents that went through segregation and Jim Crow.   That's not 6-7 generations, and those are not things that go away country-wide with the snap of a finger.  

 

But you can only control what happens going forward.  There are a lot of old people in my area who do not like jews.  At a point, you have to move forward from your parents or others beliefs and think based on your experiences.  Unfortunately the media feeds far too much into keeping the divisiveness going, it’s good for their business. 

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

So when is slavery not a factor anymore?   Redlining shouldn’t occur today with conscious corporations and the PR hit they would take.   Education is the number one thing that can take care of this.  I Appreciate the responses BTW.   

@KarmaPolice summed it up.  While it shouldn’t be happening it most certainly does.  Know how many times i was steered from buying a home in a wealthy white neighborhood?  How many times my parents had the house vandalized when they did? How many times a guidance counselor tried to now allow me to take an advanced or AP class even though i had straight A’s in math?    How many times I’ve had a gun shoved in my face by police?  Me having two parents didn’t absolve me from any of this.  So when i say that’s not the root cause and it’s a symptom that’s where I’m coming from and studies back this up.
 

And you agree education is the key.  Now we are getting somewhere.  I too think it’s a huge factor but when you have proof that the educational system has systemic flaws that impact black families  then that should be telling you something.  
 

when these things are acknowledged, which imo is the hardest part because if you don’t live it and if you aren’t taught about this in school you simply think #### was all good after slavery or after Jim Crow.  After watchmen came out i had countless white friends ask me if the whole Tulsa massacre was true. So yea these issues need to be acknowledged.  Only then can we start to address these issues.  To me it’s baffling because i would think you and others would want to get to a point where these weren’t problems that have to be brought up.  I get the impression you do however which is good.  

BTW i dont truly think we get past this until we address unconscious bias.  but to fix that takes time and integration.  sadly the opposite is occurring as a result of history.

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Michigan has school of choice, not sure if it’s better or not.  The inner city kids who can get out go to better districts do.  You have schools who lost the smartest kids, and now test poorly on state aptitude tests.  They get left behind, doesn’t really solve anything either.

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13 hours ago, PinkydaPimp said:

So having a father around will stop unconscious bias, racial profiling and ultimately unarmed black people from being killed by police?  Is that what you are saying? 

what's being said is that the things that are the core problem are being blamed on the wrong people - there is a massive lack of personal responsibility in this world 

fyi white and brown people are killed by police too - "black" is rarely the reason people are killed, having weapons in their hands, attacking police, not cooperating etc is the reasons they're killed, subdued etc and skin color isn't the issue

sometimes it is though - exceptionally rare overall and police CAN be better, nobody argues that ever ...  but always people forget all the other things associated with police to citizen incidents 

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I always regret opening those posts.  

We are back full circle to the "personal responsibility" part of the program.   I think if you bother to read any of our posts, I am not saying that people don't need to be responsible.  I am pretty sure @PinkydaPimp isn't saying that people don't need to have personal responsibility.  

 

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

Michigan has school of choice, not sure if it’s better or not.  The inner city kids who can get out go to better districts do.  You have schools who lost the smartest kids, and now test poorly on state aptitude tests.  They get left behind, doesn’t really solve anything either.

Education is a hard one to tackle.  So much is based on aptitude tests, or on neighborhoods/property taxes.   That is why policies that Pinky is talking about effect things like current education situations and why it would be harder for some people to break out of the rut their family and neighborhood are in.    This is not a quick fix that is solved after a few years of policies being off the law books.  

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

Michigan has school of choice, not sure if it’s better or not.  The inner city kids who can get out go to better districts do.  You have schools who lost the smartest kids, and now test poorly on state aptitude tests.  They get left behind, doesn’t really solve anything either.

Did you see the news last night?   There have been a bunch of shootouts the last few days on Detroit Freeways leaving 4-5 black people dead and a few injured.  The pastor made an impassioned plea and kept saying "BLM...BLM...BLM  Black lives only matter if police are doing the shooting yet we are killing each other in the street everyday and nobody cares, this has to stop"   The pastor was crying as he spoke it was so sad.

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

Michigan has school of choice, not sure if it’s better or not.  The inner city kids who can get out go to better districts do.  You have schools who lost the smartest kids, and now test poorly on state aptitude tests.  They get left behind, doesn’t really solve anything either.

Thats a start depending on how its implemented.  But what if you say you can choose your school but some kids have no way to get there? 

 

This is where diversity in where you live helps.  Its why things like adding lower income housing to better towns or school districts help give people access to better schools and resources instead of all being subjected to ghettos which have the worst schools and resources in them.  But as ive mentioned thats another issue because of things like redlining and racism in the real estate market and housing. 

 

All of this comes down to unconscious bias which can only be solved by diversity.  Where we live should be diverse, at school, day care, activities, the grocery store, work, etc.  Until people get actual exposure to people who look different or are from a different socioeconomic level there will always be those bias' which impact our systems and continue these vicious cycles we continue to see.  Thats why things havent been fixed even though slavery was a few generations ago.  I wrote a longer post about this.  I will find it when i get some time. 

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9 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

Did you see the news last night?   There have been a bunch of shootouts the last few days on Detroit Freeways leaving 4-5 black people dead and a few injured.  The pastor made an impassioned plea and kept saying "BLM...BLM...BLM  Black lives only matter if police are doing the shooting yet we are killing each other in the street everyday and nobody cares, this has to stop"   The pastor was crying as he spoke it was so sad.

I’ll have to look for this.  I’m in New Buffalo and we don’t get MichiganTV outside of FSN Detroit.  Our locals are South Bend and Chicago.  I do try to watch some Mich stuff on IPTV.

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1 hour ago, PinkydaPimp said:

 Thats why things havent been fixed even though slavery was a few generations ago.  I wrote a longer post about this.  I will find it when i get some time. 

 

Found it.  Figured id post it again.  Basically what i said above.  ok back to work.

 

Quote

Acknowledgement that there is a problem is a start but imo there is no quick solution to these issues.  I think these issues are deeply rooted in systemic racism perpetuated by unconscious bias’.  We all have bias’ but acknowledging that we do is important.  That ensures we dont act on them irrationally based on nothing but… this bias.  I know some police forces for example have attempted to do some training around this.  

Now solving this is a whole other issue.  Changing Bias’ takes time and is likely a precursor to changing the systems.  Like a long time.  More importantly, it takes integration.  Constant.   It takes people from all walks of like interacting often whether that is at the grocery store, in school, where they live, at work, at different socio-econimic levels, etc.  So people can form their opinions about a person based on real interactions and not what they saw on the news or a rap video.  One of my best friends today lived next door to me in college my freshman year.  I was the first black person he had every spoken to.  Not due to his fault, that's just how his town was.  There weren’t any black people there.  But since then we have hung out alot, met each others families, etc.  Now he is very conservative still and we will never agree on politics which is ok, but he does acknowledge his bias’ which to me is progress.  

But how do we do this integration?  Thats the real question.  People have worked extremely hard historically to discourage this.  Even to this day.  Programs that have tried were rallied against.   But i think its the only way.  And if we can better integrate and interact and discuss things like this, overtime this bias’ may change or at least be acknowledged which may help strip down some of the systemic racism that continues to impact this country. 

 

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5 hours ago, FairWarning said:

So when is slavery not a factor anymore?   Redlining shouldn’t occur today with conscious corporations and the PR hit they would take.   Education is the number one thing that can take care of this.  I Appreciate the responses BTW.   

I don't think most people are saying slavery is the issue.  IMO, a more appropriate way to phrase this would be "Racism and inequality that have existed since slavery ended have been, and continue to be, significant factors in perpetuating poverty in the black community, which leads to worse outcomes in the aggregate, even though individuals can break free from the cycle."  If replacing "since slavery ended" with "for 100+ years" makes it easier to read without implying that slavery is an "excuse", that would seem reasonable to me.

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9 hours ago, PinkydaPimp said:

@KarmaPolice summed it up.  While it shouldn’t be happening it most certainly does.  Know how many times i was steered from buying a home in a wealthy white neighborhood?  How many times my parents had the house vandalized when they did? How many times a guidance counselor tried to now allow me to take an advanced or AP class even though i had straight A’s in math?    How many times I’ve had a gun shoved in my face by police?  Me having two parents didn’t absolve me from any of this.  So when i say that’s not the root cause and it’s a symptom that’s where I’m coming from and studies back this up.
 

And you agree education is the key.  Now we are getting somewhere.  I too think it’s a huge factor but when you have proof that the educational system has systemic flaws that impact black families  then that should be telling you something.  
 

when these things are acknowledged, which imo is the hardest part because if you don’t live it and if you aren’t taught about this in school you simply think #### was all good after slavery or after Jim Crow.  After watchmen came out i had countless white friends ask me if the whole Tulsa massacre was true. So yea these issues need to be acknowledged.  Only then can we start to address these issues.  To me it’s baffling because i would think you and others would want to get to a point where these weren’t problems that have to be brought up.  I get the impression you do however which is good.  

BTW i dont truly think we get past this until we address unconscious bias.  but to fix that takes time and integration.  sadly the opposite is occurring as a result of history.

@PinkydaPimp - I've seen you say this a few times and agree.  Have you come across businesses and/or employers having decent programs to address this?  I thought of you and this idea in the other thread about the Coke situation.  While these places have their heart in the right place, I would think addressing the unconscious biases we have is a lot better route to go than telling people to be less white.  

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

@PinkydaPimp - I've seen you say this a few times and agree.  Have you come across businesses and/or employers having decent programs to address this?  I thought of you and this idea in the other thread about the Coke situation.  While these places have their heart in the right place, I would think addressing the unconscious biases we have is a lot better route to go than telling people to be less white.  

I’m out of the loop on the coke thing.  I need to see what that’s about.  
 

I feel like I’ve seen some companies i try to do this.  NFL is an example i suppose,  Typically companies that have chief diversity officers.   The issue is a lot of people view these initiatives as like reverse discrimination and push back.  Or say they are doing something but really they aren’t truly promoting diversity.  Which is why i feel it ultimately will have to happen organically.  And the problem there is that is difficult when we don’t have upward mobility for example. 
 

give me the tl;dr on coke?  

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1 minute ago, PinkydaPimp said:

I’m out of the loop on the coke thing.  I need to see what that’s about.  
 

I feel like I’ve seen some companies i try to do this.  NFL is an example i suppose,  Typically companies that have chief diversity officers.   The issue is a lot of people view these initiatives as like reverse discrimination and push back.  Or say they are doing something but really they aren’t truly promoting diversity.  Which is why i feel it ultimately will have to happen organically.  And the problem there is that is difficult when we don’t have upward mobility for example. 
 

give me the tl;dr on coke?  

Here is the link that was floating around the other thread.  

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15 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I always regret opening those posts.  

We are back full circle to the "personal responsibility" part of the program.   I think if you bother to read any of our posts, I am not saying that people don't need to be responsible.  I am pretty sure @PinkydaPimp isn't saying that people don't need to have personal responsibility.  

 

I don't read any of that anytime a situation happens with police though (a citizen's responsibility to comply and/or not drop a weapon etc)

In fact, police can choke to death a white guy or kill white guys, or brown guys or women and media doesn't really cover that at all. White cops kill black man and that's headline news 

and nobody really questions why 

 

 

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I'd just like to chime in and say that if you think policies that stem from racism don't have anything to do with black-on-black crime, you're likely wrong. If you don't think that a culture's personal responsibility and ethos have nothing to do with it, you're probably wrong, too. Somewhere twain the two is the truth.

Redlining, covenants, segregation, Jim Crow in the 19th and 20th Centuries, pretty much everything was racist to a degree against black people in our history. It was a whole society structured that way. Call it systemic racism, call it what you will. It was there. On the other hand, since the late '50s, and especially from the late '60s, we've seen the rise of shattered, bleak, impoverished, one-parent homes that arise in both black and white culture once you control for economics. But just because you control for economics doesn't mean you control for black-on-black crime. It also exists, and the respect for human life seems at an all-time minimum. 

I think you guys are all talking across each other because you have your beliefs, are engaged in an argument and confirmation bias and dissonance has set in. To not see the historical implications of structural racism or to not see the abject way in which the poor are killing the other poor because of a social breakdown, especially in black communities, and you've got no middle ground within which to meet.

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On 2/27/2021 at 1:40 AM, gianmarco said:

No doubt that should have been handled better.  The kid probably wanted a ride - just not by the police.  Who could blame him.  This is where BLM loses me.  They will discuss this, but ignore cases like Louis Nix.  

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21 hours ago, rockaction said:

I'd just like to chime in and say that if you think policies that stem from racism don't have anything to do with black-on-black crime, you're likely wrong. If you don't think that a culture's personal responsibility and ethos have nothing to do with it, you're probably wrong, too. Somewhere twain the two is the truth.

Redlining, covenants, segregation, Jim Crow in the 19th and 20th Centuries, pretty much everything was racist to a degree against black people in our history. It was a whole society structured that way. Call it systemic racism, call it what you will. It was there. On the other hand, since the late '50s, and especially from the late '60s, we've seen the rise of shattered, bleak, impoverished, one-parent homes that arise in both black and white culture once you control for economics. But just because you control for economics doesn't mean you control for black-on-black crime. It also exists, and the respect for human life seems at an all-time minimum. 

I think you guys are all talking across each other because you have your beliefs, are engaged in an argument and confirmation bias and dissonance has set in. To not see the historical implications of structural racism or to not see the abject way in which the poor are killing the other poor because of a social breakdown, especially in black communities, and you've got no middle ground within which to meet.

I have no doubt that the way things used to be put us on the path to where we are. I also have zero doubts that without crime being the biggest focus we will forever be on this path. 

Right now crime is the single biggest issue. It isnt even close. Almost every single problem stems back to crime.

Just look at nutrition. Food deserts arent an issue because big bad white business owners just hate being in black neighborhoods. They hate being in areas where crime eats their profits. 

So if you want to fix food deserts you need to come up with solutions as a community that will lead to less crime in the grocery stores that do exist in these areas. Then work with those grocery store chains to put new locations in areas that are underserved. 

Instead we get the current approach of hush hush dont talk about that and shoplifting and vandalism is no big deal and these rich people are bad and this is white supremacy culture. 

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

I have no doubt that the way things used to be put us on the path to where we are. I also have zero doubts that without crime being the biggest focus we will forever be on this path. 

Right now crime is the single biggest issue. It isnt even close. Almost every single problem stems back to crime.

Just look at nutrition. Food deserts arent an issue because big bad white business owners just hate being in black neighborhoods. They hate being in areas where crime eats their profits. 

So if you want to fix food deserts you need to come up with solutions as a community that will lead to less crime in the grocery stores that do exist in these areas. Then work with those grocery store chains to put new locations in areas that are underserved. 

Instead we get the current approach of hush hush dont talk about that and shoplifting and vandalism is no big deal and these rich people are bad and this is white supremacy culture. 

For a number of reasons, Detroit went a few years without a single grocery store.  

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6 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

For a number of reasons, Detroit went a few years without a single grocery store.  

The chain grocery stores left Detroit decades ago due to the inability to turn profit, theft, violence.  The the Arab grocers moved in and are still there.   Picture an old grocery store from the 70s with bars around the front door so the carts can`t get stolen. No updates. food prices 20-30% higher than a Kroger and lower quality.  That is all that is left in parts of Detroit.

Kroger opened a new one a few years ago and closed it already.  Meijer is on the outskirts on 8 Mile.

Whole Foods opened in Mid-Town by the stadium district but all white people live there now.

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13 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

The chain grocery stores left Detroit decades ago due to the inability to turn profit, theft, violence.  The the Arab grocers moved in and are still there.   Picture an old grocery store from the 70s with bars around the front door so the carts can`t get stolen. No updates. food prices 20-30% higher than a Kroger and lower quality.  That is all that is left in parts of Detroit.

Kroger opened a new one a few years ago and closed it already.  Meijer is on the outskirts on 8 Mile.

Whole Foods opened in Mid-Town by the stadium district but all white people live there now.

Sounds like Benton Harbor.  

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On 2/27/2021 at 1:40 AM, gianmarco said:

I've had two encounters in the past six months with people that seemed out of place.  The first was walking through heavy underbrush along a river bank.  Although we speculated that he could just be scoping out a spot to fish, it wasn't really consistent with his attire or clumsiness.  A little over an hour later, he tried to kill himself by jumping off a bridge downstream.  Fortunately, this bipolar individual was pulled from the water by rescue personnel without serious injury.  The other was similar to this young man - walking in frigid conditions in just a T shirt.  Maybe we wouldn't have called the police if it were not for the first incident, but, as it turns out, this man suffered from dementia and had walked away from a home around five miles away.

I have no problem with a wellness check.  And, maybe, under different circumstances, this boy would have simply been driven home.  No doubt the officers could have handled this better.  But I also see a boy who is uncooperative and I'm not really surprised by the outcome.  The sad irony is this is essentially a self fulfilling prophecy.

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3 minutes ago, DropKick said:

I've had two encounters in the past six months with people that seemed out of place.  The first was walking through heavy underbrush along a river bank.  Although we speculated that he could just be scoping out a spot to fish, it wasn't really consistent with his attire or clumsiness.  A little over an hour later, he tried to kill himself by jumping off a bridge downstream.  Fortunately, this bipolar individual was pulled from the water by rescue personnel without serious injury.  The other was similar to this young man - walking in frigid conditions in just a T shirt.  Maybe we wouldn't have called the police if it were not for the first incident, but, as it turns out, this man suffered from dementia and had walked away from a home around five miles away.

I have no problem with a wellness check.  And, maybe, under different circumstances, this boy would have simply been driven home.  No doubt the officers could have handled this better.  But I also see a boy who is uncooperative and I'm not really surprised by the outcome.  The sad irony is this is essentially a self fulfilling prophecy.

No issues with the wellness check either. In fact, I'm glad someone did that and it was called in that way.

The police turned that into far more than a wellness check for no reason. Either offer him a ride home or follow behind and make sure he gets home ok or just leave him alone once he says he's just going home from work. 

Detaining and arresting should never have remotely entered into this situation. 

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13 minutes ago, DropKick said:

I've had two encounters in the past six months with people that seemed out of place.  The first was walking through heavy underbrush along a river bank.  Although we speculated that he could just be scoping out a spot to fish, it wasn't really consistent with his attire or clumsiness.  A little over an hour later, he tried to kill himself by jumping off a bridge downstream.  Fortunately, this bipolar individual was pulled from the water by rescue personnel without serious injury.  The other was similar to this young man - walking in frigid conditions in just a T shirt.  Maybe we wouldn't have called the police if it were not for the first incident, but, as it turns out, this man suffered from dementia and had walked away from a home around five miles away.

I have no problem with a wellness check.  And, maybe, under different circumstances, this boy would have simply been driven home.  No doubt the officers could have handled this better.  But I also see a boy who is uncooperative and I'm not really surprised by the outcome.  The sad irony is this is essentially a self fulfilling prophecy.

Yes, so many of these are self fulfilling prophecies because unfortunately black people have been trained to irrationally fear police. 

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2 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

No issues with the wellness check either. In fact, I'm glad someone did that and it was called in that way.

The police turned that into far more than a wellness check for no reason. Either offer him a ride home or follow behind and make sure he gets home ok or just leave him alone once he says he's just going home from work. 

Detaining and arresting should never have remotely entered into this situation. 

Why do you have no issues with a "wellness check".  How can they check his wellness when he doesn't stop.  What exactly should a wellness check consist of in these circumstances?

Genuinely curious as the whole encounter seemed odd to me...but this is often the situations police encounter...odd ones.

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6 minutes ago, djmich said:

Why do you have no issues with a "wellness check".  How can they check his wellness when he doesn't stop.  What exactly should a wellness check consist of in these circumstances?

Genuinely curious as the whole encounter seemed odd to me...but this is often the situations police encounter...odd ones.

I meant that I don't see racial motivation in checking on someone that isn't properly dressed.  I agree with you...  the boy looks them in the face and says he is walking from work and he probably gets a lift.

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33 minutes ago, djmich said:

Yes, so many of these are self fulfilling prophecies because unfortunately black people have been trained to irrationally fear police. 

We will disagree that it's irrational.

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3 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

We will disagree that it's irrational.

Yes we will and you will likely conflate my statement with some indication that there is no racism or race based impact on policing.  There is.

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32 minutes ago, djmich said:

Why do you have no issues with a "wellness check".  How can they check his wellness when he doesn't stop.  What exactly should a wellness check consist of in these circumstances?

Genuinely curious as the whole encounter seemed odd to me...but this is often the situations police encounter...odd ones.

He doesn't need to stop.  The call into the police was of a man walking in a t-shirt in cold weather and having a hard time walking (not surprising with ice).  The very beginning of the video he clearly states he's just walking home from work.  It doesn't really require much more than that to see he's not in distress.  A wellness check can literally take 5 seconds and can be done from afar.  If they can't determine that he's not well, then they can just follow him home in their vehicle or offer him a ride.

Instead they kept following him on foot, and when he declined to respond to more of their questions, they detained him, arrested him for walking in the street, and escalated it WAY more than need be.  It's not on the kid to have to stop and answer questions when he's done nothing wrong and is simply walking home.

Why do these discussions always try to put blame on the citizen "if only he had done this..."?  Sure, it could have avoided this.  But "this" shouldn't have happened regardless whether he does or not.  We have rights as citizens here to walk freely home from work and not be subject to stops and detainment just because.

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Just now, gianmarco said:

He doesn't need to stop.  The call into the police was of a man walking in a t-shirt in cold weather and having a hard time walking (not surprising with ice).  The very beginning of the video he clearly states he's just walking home from work.  It doesn't really require much more than that to see he's not in distress.  A wellness check can literally take 5 seconds and can be done from afar.  If they can't determine that he's not well, then they can just follow him home in their vehicle or offer him a ride.

Instead they kept following him on foot, and when he declined to respond to more of their questions, they detained him, arrested him for walking in the street, and escalated it WAY more than need be.  It's not on the kid to have to stop and answer questions when he's done nothing wrong and is simply walking home.

Why do these discussions always try to put blame on the citizen "if only he had done this..."?  Sure, it could have avoided this.  But "this" shouldn't have happened regardless whether he does or not.  We have rights as citizens here to walk freely home from work and not be subject to stops and detainment just because.

I know we've had these conversations before but in my opinion you take a very bubble based view of how interactions actually work and expectations for police.  Based on your expectations I'd say that wellness checks are essentially impotent and should not be part of policing...because you are doing nothing other than putting police in untenable situations.

A wellness check can be done from afar?

So we call police to do a wellness check and they pull up to a guy wearing a t-shirt walking in the middle of the street in what appears to be freezing temperatures.  That seems potentially unwell.  Guy doesn't stop and just basically says leave me alone I'm fine.  Thats it?  Do you expect the "unwell" to typically stop and say "hey man, I have a severe case of schizophrenia and completely lost, thank you for stopping to check but the facility I'm staying at is two minutes away and I'll be fine".

These encounters are nothing but instances set up for you to complain about outcomes in completely unpredictable circumstances when people behave irrationally.  Just don't even have the encounter to begin with, why waste the resources and risk negative outcomes if you're not really going to do anything.

 

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