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Black lives matter (3 Viewers)

Summer Wheat said:
Growing up where I did I had a number of run ins with the police.  I did find if you respond right away, be a little cooperative, comply to what they are asking that you will be on your way without a problem.
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I could see if this is a pattern of behavior, this would get old.

 
FairWarning said:
I could see if this is a pattern of behavior, this would get old.
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Of course it would. But it should be far down on your list of "old". If you live or work in an area that has police patrolling like that it means crime is quite high. I was always happy to see police when I was at work. 

Being confrontational with police doesnt help there. 

It is an immediate red flag. People with open warrants can be quite confrontational and will often do whatever they can to get away without identifying themselves.  

Somewhere along the way people thought ignoring the police or being a jerk to the police was "standing up for your rights." 

OMG they asked me a couple questions!!! Muh freedom!!! 

Or even worse they brand the police as all corrupt and they are asking these questions so they can get away with framing you. 

Thats not to say that there havent been corrupt officers that have framed people. But it is really dumb to use that as an explanation for being confrontational. A corrupt police officer isnt going to not frame somebody because they refused to ID themselves. 

Dangit Barney, we were totally gonna git that guy. I had the drugs ready to plant, if only he would have given us his name or told us what he was doing here at 2 am.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Of course it would. But it should be far down on your list of "old". If you live or work in an area that has police patrolling like that it means crime is quite high. I was always happy to see police when I was at work. 

Being confrontational with police doesnt help there. 

It is an immediate red flag. People with open warrants can be quite confrontational and will often do whatever they can to get away without identifying themselves.  

Somewhere along the way people thought ignoring the police or being a jerk to the police was "standing up for your rights." 

OMG they asked me a couple questions!!! Muh freedom!!! 

Or even worse they brand the police as all corrupt and they are asking these questions so they can get away with framing you. 

Thats not to say that there havent been corrupt officers that have framed people. But it is really dumb to use that as an explanation for being confrontational. A corrupt police officer isnt going to not frame somebody because they refused to ID themselves. 

Dangit Barney, we were totally gonna git that guy. I had the drugs ready to plant, if only he would have given us his name or told us what he was doing here at 2 am.
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Not necessarily. A lot of the cops like to patrol the nice areas and be seen also.  They see a kid walking thru there late at night and wonder what’s up.  It could have been handled better all around, but that is really on the police to earn trust and avoid a confrontation.

 
FairWarning said:
Not necessarily. A lot of the cops like to patrol the nice areas and be seen also.  They see a kid walking thru there late at night and wonder what’s up.  It could have been handled better all around, but that is really on the police to earn trust and avoid a confrontation.
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I thought we were talking about frequent scenarios? 

The reason cops in the burbs stop people walking through on foot late at night is because it is absolutely not frequent. 

My son got a curfew ticket last year. He snuck out from my ex wifes house(lives in same burb) and was walking to his girlfriends house. Somebody walking on our streets late at night stands out like a sore thumb. Somebody called the cops and they rolled up. Two cars, spotlight and everything. Its the burbs, what else are they gonna do? 

Side note, from that experience I learned that there are kid juries. I had never heard of that. That was his punishment. Either pay a ticket or serve on a jury. 

 
FairWarning said:
Not necessarily. A lot of the cops like to patrol the nice areas and be seen also.  They see a kid walking thru there late at night and wonder what’s up.  It could have been handled better all around, but that is really on the police to earn trust and avoid a confrontation.
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I think generally police frequently don't handle situations perfectly and often sub optimally.  Almost always initiated by and exacerbated by the citizens not handling the situations perfectly and often sub optimally.

In this case, when you are in the middle of the night, its freezing and the person won't stop to talk to you...how do you earn trust?  They were saying "are you trying to get home?"  "we just want to talk to you".  Those words sound fairly supportive?

 
djmich said:
I think generally police frequently don't handle situations perfectly and often sub optimally.  Almost always initiated by and exacerbated by the citizens not handling the situations perfectly and often sub optimally.

In this case, when you are in the middle of the night, its freezing and the person won't stop to talk to you...how do you earn trust?  They were saying "are you trying to get home?"  "we just want to talk to you".  Those words sound fairly supportive?
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If the kid has had negative experiences throughout  his life w/cops - maybe friends have been harassed and stopped for no reason, it’s really all it takes.  He didn’t trust the cop.

 
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FairWarning said:
If the kid has had negative experiences throughout  his life w/cops - maybe friends have been harassed and stopped for no reason, it’s really all it takes.  He didn’t trust the cop.
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Yes, and too many instances are truly negative which is on the police.  Its an un-virtuous cycle though.  Was this experience negative...yes...did it have to be...no.  We'll never know because when asked if he was trying to get home he decided to not stop.  I get it, but its why we are where we are.

A huge part of the problem is that everybody has friends harrased and killed by cops.  Its called the news media / social media.  Everybody knows George Floyd and everybody think all cops are Derek Chauvin.  Its whats happens when singular events are in the news for months.  People are trained to fear the police.

I get it, but its not good (creates this negative feedback loop resulting in more encounters where people dont react the right way and get hurt) and not rational.

 
djmich said:
Yes, and too many instances are truly negative which is on the police.  Its an un-virtuous cycle though.  Was this experience negative...yes...did it have to be...no.  We'll never know because when asked if he was trying to get home he decided to not stop.  I get it, but its why we are where we are.

A huge part of the problem is that everybody has friends harrased and killed by cops.  Its called the news media / social media.  Everybody knows George Floyd and everybody think all cops are Derek Chauvin.  Its whats happens when singular events are in the news for months.  People are trained to fear the police.

I get it, but its not good (creates this negative feedback loop resulting in more encounters where people dont react the right way and get hurt) and not rational.
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I was just thinking being in a car with friends and cops following , whatever.  You’re right, it’s a cycle that needs to be broke somehow. 

 
FairWarning said:
I was just thinking being in a car with friends and cops following , whatever.  You’re right, it’s a cycle that needs to be broke somehow. 
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Yah.  If I was pulled over by a cop tomorrow my heart would flutter and I'd probably sweat a bit...honestly there is an underlying natural human reaction to be afraid of being caught doing something wrong (even if you don't think you did anything wrong).  The large majority of encounters with police are never going to be seen as positives.

My daughter would start balling no doubt.

All that to say I'm white and with 100% certainty I can say that if I was black multiply all of the above feelings several fold.  Doesn't change anything I've said though, particularly the irrational part which I think is somewhat controversial.

 
djmich said:
Yah.  If I was pulled over by a cop tomorrow my heart would flutter and I'd probably sweat a bit...honestly there is an underlying natural human reaction to be afraid of being caught doing something wrong (even if you don't think you did anything wrong).  The large majority of encounters with police are never going to be seen as positives.

My daughter would start balling no doubt.

All that to say I'm white and with 100% certainty I can say that if I was black multiply all of the above feelings several fold.  Doesn't change anything I've said though, particularly the irrational part which I think is somewhat controversial.
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At the end of the day, you’ll never win fighting them.  Cops will win most every time, no matter the color.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
Exactly.  

"a white one legged busboy wouldn't change places with me".  :lol:
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This is not a whoever post lasts wins type of deal here.

Simple cooperation goes a long, long way on how the interaction with police goes.

 
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Interaction and cooperation is a piece of the puzzle, but let's also not pretend it's a cure all or that our interactions with police is equivalent to others.   It also doesn't account for stop and frisks, encounters in the park, etc.   There are many examples were there was cooperation and it didn't factor into the outcome.  

 
Btw - I’m not against what BLM is fighting for.  But the organization is too decentralized and they need to prevent crap like that from happening. It hurts the cause.

 
ekbeats said:
Btw - I’m not against what BLM is fighting for.  But the organization is too decentralized and they need to prevent crap like that from happening. It hurts the cause.
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This is what I struggle with and has been debated about throughout these types of protests and as things escalate.   IMO there is a difference between an "official" BLM protest, and a protest by some random people who are holding up BLM signs.   Maybe I am just naive.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
This is what I struggle with and has been debated about throughout these types of protests and as things escalate.   IMO there is a difference between an "official" BLM protest, and a protest by some random people who are holding up BLM signs.   Maybe I am just naive.  
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That's BLMs fault too. They focused on grassroots, decentralization and focus on local organization rather than national leadership. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
This is what I struggle with and has been debated about throughout these types of protests and as things escalate.   IMO there is a difference between an "official" BLM protest, and a protest by some random people who are holding up BLM signs.   Maybe I am just naive.  
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Yeah their organizational structure is confusing. I think they intentionally keep BLM out of it as far as being the official party organizing many of the rallies.  But they do advertise and promote the rallies to BLM advocates. I think it allows them to disassociate themselves and not assume formal responsibility for what happens at the rally.  Kind of smart actually.

 
ekbeats said:
Yeah their organizational structure is confusing. I think they intentionally keep BLM out of it as far as being the official party organizing many of the rallies.  But they do advertise and promote the rallies to BLM advocates. I think it allows them to disassociate themselves and not assume formal responsibility for what happens at the rally.  Kind of smart actually.
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I see your point about that, or it could have just been an unintended consequence.   They might have had good intentions and wanted to give a voice and power to the people at the local level and the grassroots events.   But, then you could have situations were people use their BLM posters and signs to voice their opinions about a local situation, and it be something that BLM didn't originally intend to promote.  

 
ekbeats said:
Yeah their organizational structure is confusing. I think they intentionally keep BLM out of it as far as being the official party organizing many of the rallies.  But they do advertise and promote the rallies to BLM advocates. I think it allows them to disassociate themselves and not assume formal responsibility for what happens at the rally.  Kind of smart actually.
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Actually it is smart.  I would love to know where all of their donation money went.  

 
ekbeats said:
Yeah their organizational structure is confusing. I think they intentionally keep BLM out of it as far as being the official party organizing many of the rallies.  But they do advertise and promote the rallies to BLM advocates. I think it allows them to disassociate themselves and not assume formal responsibility for what happens at the rally.  Kind of smart actually.
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It's confusing on purpose.  I don't know if you've been reading, but all of the donations (tens of millions of dollars) have basically disappeared at the national level.  No local BLM groups have received any funding or money.  The Marxist leaders of the movement are embezzling it.

 
KarmaPolice said:
Interaction and cooperation is a piece of the puzzle, but let's also not pretend it's a cure all or that our interactions with police is equivalent to others.   It also doesn't account for stop and frisks, encounters in the park, etc.   There are many examples were there was cooperation and it didn't factor into the outcome.  
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I don't how many you consider "many examples".  About 30 unarmed black people are killed each year by cops.  What percentage of those were completely cooperative do you think?  10%?  20%?  50%?  Assume that half of them were completely cooperative and still were killed.  that's 15 incidents.  In a year.  In the entire country.  Its a tragedy, but the narrative that this is an epidemic in our country is completely deranged.  

Additionally, for every instance of this happening to a black person, there is the exact same example of this happening to a white person.  Statistically speaking, blacks are more likely to be roughed up by cops, but whites are more likely to be killed by cops.  

Interaction and cooperation isn't just a piece of the puzzle, its most of the puzzle.  In the heat of the moment is simply not the time to litigate your case.  If you didn't do the crime, of course you are going to plead innocence.  If you did the crime, of course you are going to plead innocence.  There is no outcome of arguing that is going to result in the cop accepting your pushback, getting in his car and driving away.  Let the cop do his/her job and complain to his supervisor later if you think there was some wrongdoing.  

 
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BladeRunner said:
It's confusing on purpose.  I don't know if you've been reading, but all of the donations (tens of millions of dollars) have basically disappeared at the national level.  No local BLM groups have received any funding or money.  The Marxist leaders of the movement are embezzling it.
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Do you have any proof of this? I would doubt it. 

In fact, in February, BLM leaders opened up and gave a detailed look at their finances:

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-02-23/ap-exclusive-black-lives-matter-opens-up-about-its-finances

 
unckeyherb said:
I don't how many you consider "many examples".  About 30 unarmed black people are killed each year by cops.  What percentage of those were completely cooperative do you think?  10%?  20%?  50%?  Assume that half of them were completely cooperative and still were killed.  that's 15 incidents.  In a year.  In the entire country.  Its a tragedy, but the narrative that this is an epidemic in our country is completely deranged.  

Additionally, for every instance of this happening to a black person, there is the exact same example of this happening to a white person.  Statistically speaking, blacks are more likely to be roughed up by cops, but whites are more likely to be killed by cops.  

Interaction and cooperation isn't just a piece of the puzzle, its most of the puzzle.  In the heat of the moment is simply not the time to litigate your case.  If you didn't do the crime, of course you are going to plead innocence.  If you did the crime, of course you are going to plead innocence.  There is no outcome of arguing that is going to result in the cop accepting your pushback, getting in his car and driving away.  Let the cop do his/her job and complain to his supervisor later if you think there was some wrongdoing.  
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I am not talking about strictly deaths/killings.   Specifically in the part you quoted I brought up stop and frisks, etc.    Talking about interactions in general.  

 
unckeyherb said:
Interaction and cooperation isn't just a piece of the puzzle, its most of the puzzle.  
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Yes, particularly for the more severe outcomes resulting in civilian injury.  To be clear, part of the puzzle is better policing but agree the bigger issue right now is the unnecessarily escalated interactions.

 
KarmaPolice said:
I am not talking about strictly deaths/killings.   Specifically in the part you quoted I brought up stop and frisks, etc.    Talking about interactions in general.  
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you may not be strictly talking about deaths and killings but the body politic in general is only talking about that and is grossly misrepresenting reality.  They would have an entire generation of black kids believe that they are at mortal risk of being killed by a cop every time they get pulled over.  That is not even close to reality and does real damage to an already toxic situation.  There was a poll done recently asking people how many unarmed black men are killed by cops every year.  The answers varied from mid 100's to 2-3000 and went as high as 5000.  People's understanding of this issue is completely delusional and its due to the ridiculous rhetoric of groups like BLM, and certain members of the democrat party as well as the media and talking heads/pundits that beat this drum day in and day out.  Its no wonder that black youth don't cooperate.  Based on all they've heard growing up, they believe they are fighting for their lives.  

 
djmich said:
Yes, particularly for the more severe outcomes resulting in civilian injury.  To be clear, part of the puzzle is better policing but agree the bigger issue right now is the unnecessarily escalated interactions.
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Of course police can do way better.  Training for police is woefully under delivered and there is no real continuing education as far as I know.  Jocko Willink had a good summation of the situation, suggested that something like 1/3rd of a police officer's weekly job should be training.  They get no where near that.  Andrew Yang suggested that all police officers that are respondants to hostile situations should be trained in jiu jitsu.  There are creative ways to further develop training methodology that would absolutely help the situation.

 
KarmaPolice said:
Its also hard to read posts too, I guess.  The quoted post had 0 about deaths in it, and was talking about police interactions.  :shrug:
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To be fair you didn't disqualify deaths either-I read it as referring to interactions that end badly-death being chief among them.  Either way I noted in the stats I posted that blacks are more likely to be roughed up cops than white people.  That much seems clear from a bunch of different studies and articles I 've read over the year.

 
unckeyherb said:
you may not be strictly talking about deaths and killings but the body politic in general is only talking about that and is grossly misrepresenting reality.  They would have an entire generation of black kids believe that they are at mortal risk of being killed by a cop every time they get pulled over.  That is not even close to reality and does real damage to an already toxic situation.  There was a poll done recently asking people how many unarmed black men are killed by cops every year.  The answers varied from mid 100's to 2-3000 and went as high as 5000.  People's understanding of this issue is completely delusional and its due to the ridiculous rhetoric of groups like BLM, and certain members of the democrat party as well as the media and talking heads/pundits that beat this drum day in and day out.  Its no wonder that black youth don't cooperate.  Based on all they've heard growing up, they believe they are fighting for their lives.  
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I get all that, and I am not really pushing back on those stats.   I don't think people are just talking about deaths, but I could be off on that, and I just making it clear that I am not.     What I was pushing back on was the people in this thread seemingly trivializing the situation and extrapolating their experiences (as white men) with other people's.   

Just a quick glance and I saw one stat had black drivers are 65% more likely to be stopped vs. white drivers despite driving less overall.  Over 100% more likely to be searched than whites despite contraband being more likely to be found on whites.   

Stop and frisk were about 5x more common for black people that whites.   

So while I can say I cooperate when I get stopped.  That's happened a whole 1 time in about 12 years.   I agree that cooperation is important, but I can also understand why a group of people might be a little less likely to be cooperative when they are getting stopped a lot more.  I don't think it's as cut and dry as telling everybody to mind their own business so they don't get stopped, and cooperate if they are.  

 
unckeyherb said:
To be fair you didn't disqualify deaths either-I read it as referring to interactions that end badly-death being chief among them.  Either way I noted in the stats I posted that blacks are more likely to be roughed up cops than white people.  That much seems clear from a bunch of different studies and articles I 've read over the year.
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No worries there.  It's hard to keep different dialogues going sometimes, especially if people are thinking about the topic from a slightly different way.  

ETA:  my snide remark was directed to him, not you.  

 
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KarmaPolice said:
I get all that, and I am not really pushing back on those stats.   I don't think people are just talking about deaths, but I could be off on that, and I just making it clear that I am not.     What I was pushing back on was the people in this thread seemingly trivializing the situation and extrapolating their experiences (as white men) with other people's.   

Just a quick glance and I saw one stat had black drivers are 65% more likely to be stopped vs. white drivers despite driving less overall.  Over 100% more likely to be searched than whites despite contraband being more likely to be found on whites.   

Stop and frisk were about 5x more common for black people that whites.   

So while I can say I cooperate when I get stopped.  That's happened a whole 1 time in about 12 years.   I agree that cooperation is important, but I can also understand why a group of people might be a little less likely to be cooperative when they are getting stopped a lot more.  I don't think it's as cut and dry as telling everybody to mind their own business so they don't get stopped, and cooperate if they are.  
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Totally.  I do think that groups like BLM and pundits on tv focus 97% of their energy on the meme of cops hunting black men and have little time to discuss anything else.  

Regarding the traffic stop numbers you are right and the reason for that as well as the stupidly simple solution can be described better than me by @parasaurolophus.   I should find the thread that he broke it down in, as its been referenced in this thread previously.  

The simple reality is that cops go to where the most crime happens and they are invariably going to have more interactions when there.  The knowledge of being in an area with heightened crime puts cops more on edge than they would be elsewhere.  This in combination with the expectation that the cop probably will shoot them makes the black person more agitated.  A very small percentage of interactions turn violent and even less turn deadly.  That number is amplified in the black community due to there simply being way more police-citizen interactions.  And the wheel goes round and round.  

Regarding the bolded, I understand it as well, but the reality is that in almost every case it is as cut and dry as your last sentence.  I say that as a white man who has zero lived experience as a black man.  Frankly, I don't need that to understand statistics or to understand the simple concept that a traffic stop is not the time to voice your frustration with society or to litigate your case against the cop pulling you over.

I know that is not a popular opinion. akin to "pulling yourself up by the bootstraps" but in this case it is 100% accurate.  

 
unckeyherb said:
you may not be strictly talking about deaths and killings but the body politic in general is only talking about that and is grossly misrepresenting reality.  They would have an entire generation of black kids believe that they are at mortal risk of being killed by a cop every time they get pulled over.  That is not even close to reality and does real damage to an already toxic situation.  There was a poll done recently asking people how many unarmed black men are killed by cops every year.  The answers varied from mid 100's to 2-3000 and went as high as 5000.  People's understanding of this issue is completely delusional and its due to the ridiculous rhetoric of groups like BLM, and certain members of the democrat party as well as the media and talking heads/pundits that beat this drum day in and day out.  Its no wonder that black youth don't cooperate.  Based on all they've heard growing up, they believe they are fighting for their lives.  
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The main point being protested is police violence.  Which is overly excessive in black communities.  There is no debating that fact.   Also note that stats are extremely underrepresented as many police violence does not get tracked or reported.  Only now are we improving this tracking.

Also, black people dont fear police because of the news. They fear police because they are in their communities stopping and and frisking and shoving guns in our faces and beating them up all the time.  Hell it happens when we arent in black communities as well.  If you have never had a positive experience with a police officer and that is your only experience, i think you can imagine where that fear comes from. 

KarmaPolice said:
I get all that, and I am not really pushing back on those stats.   I don't think people are just talking about deaths, but I could be off on that, and I just making it clear that I am not.     What I was pushing back on was the people in this thread seemingly trivializing the situation and extrapolating their experiences (as white men) with other people's.   

Just a quick glance and I saw one stat had black drivers are 65% more likely to be stopped vs. white drivers despite driving less overall.  Over 100% more likely to be searched than whites despite contraband being more likely to be found on whites.   

Stop and frisk were about 5x more common for black people that whites.   

So while I can say I cooperate when I get stopped.  That's happened a whole 1 time in about 12 years.   I agree that cooperation is important, but I can also understand why a group of people might be a little less likely to be cooperative when they are getting stopped a lot more.  I don't think it's as cut and dry as telling everybody to mind their own business so they don't get stopped, and cooperate if they are.  
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Correct.  Cooperation is important.  But trust me it does not absolve you from getting guns pulled on you or having police escalate the situation.  And if all you know is that this typically ends in you getting roughed up, well, after the 20th encounter you may not be so pleasant while being stopped either. 

unckeyherb said:
Totally.  I do think that groups like BLM and pundits on tv focus 97% of their energy on the meme of cops hunting black men and have little time to discuss anything else.  

Regarding the traffic stop numbers you are right and the reason for that as well as the stupidly simple solution can be described better than me by @parasaurolophus.   I should find the thread that he broke it down in, as its been referenced in this thread previously.  

The simple reality is that cops go to where the most crime happens and they are invariably going to have more interactions when there.  The knowledge of being in an area with heightened crime puts cops more on edge than they would be elsewhere.  This in combination with the expectation that the cop probably will shoot them makes the black person more agitated.  A very small percentage of interactions turn violent and even less turn deadly.  That number is amplified in the black community due to there simply being way more police-citizen interactions.  And the wheel goes round and round.  

Regarding the bolded, I understand it as well, but the reality is that in almost every case it is as cut and dry as your last sentence.  I say that as a white man who has zero lived experience as a black man.  Frankly, I don't need that to understand statistics or to understand the simple concept that a traffic stop is not the time to voice your frustration with society or to litigate your case against the cop pulling you over.

I know that is not a popular opinion. akin to "pulling yourself up by the bootstraps" but in this case it is 100% accurate.  
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Frankly, as a white man who has not lived the black experience you have zero understanding of what we deal with on a regular basis. 

As for the cops go where the crime goes, this leads us to asking the question why do those areas happen to be majority black?  Why do the stats show such high crime rates?  The answers to those questions are similar to the reason police violence is so high against blacks. 

 
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