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College Admissions Questions (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter NewlyRetired
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The_Man
Footballguy
Nigel
Footballguy
The_Man
Footballguy
chet
Footballguy
The_Man
Footballguy
Sucks. Hard to convince these kids that they aren’t failures after 4 years of killing themselves and doing everything right. Of course all the drive and talent that got them this far will translate into continued college and professional success but good luck convincing an 18-year-old of that at the moment their “dream” ends in rejection
The Z Machine
Footballguy
chet
Footballguy
Yes and knowing that she was so close is really tough too. If she had been rejected in the early round, that's one thing but they deferred her and gave her some hope.
Waitlist at Harvard is similar. She's close but not quite there and if you want to clear, you should jump through some hoops after what's already been a mentally exhausting exercise.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
Ugh. So sorry to hear this. But Berkeley is a freaking awesome admission as is UVA. I’m not looking forward to this experience next year with my kid. Thankfully, as it stands now, his top choice is a school that is easier to get into than some of the reach schools he’ll be applying to.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
interesting. I was ED at Davidson, though that was mainly because I didn't feel like doing a lot of applications or really thinking about the process at all.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I know this was a million years ago, but thanks for the responses.
I "made" her sign up for it to at least give it a try. I think the main reasons she doesn't want to do it are that it would take away free periods and also that she is kind of a lazy. I think that she likes the exposure to different topics and ways of thinking, though can be pretty hard-headed and sometimes I think doesn't like hearing the other opinions. Either way, I think it's beneficial for her to continue to be exposed to different subjects and people. That is interesting about the most challenging box. she was recommended for honors in all but math and i let her do the regular math level (which is a grade ahead in subject matter, since she's been in advanced math during middle school). It was a tough decision for me, but she has struggled to keep up with the fast pace and doesn't really like math (though that is partly a confidence issue, I think). I do think she can do it if she fully applies herself and I've always been of the mindset that exposing her to the most challenging material was best, regardless of grades, but it is a constant battle and does kind of make her miserable. Now I'm re-thinking that...
Anyway, didn't really mean to go on this tangent. Back to the admissions decisions...
Galileo
Footballguy
Tough reading through all this. Sorry to hear about the rejections, but it also sounds like some good opportunities still available for several. My oldest is currently a sophomore, so I will be going through all of this in the very near future. Right now, without much serious research, my son's first choice/dream is Stanford. I am having a hard time seeing it.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
This thread scares me. Just started tours and research. Already want to just move everyone to an island and live off of fish and coconut.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Galileo
Footballguy
I feel like you do. More tests...blah. But I suppose they could be a way to highlight your strengths and interests. A fairly small number of schools require or recommend them, but some of the more prestigious names are on that list. Some schools require them for particular programs. Personally, I would avoid them unless the particular schools you might be interested in recommend them.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Our college counselor is suggesting that my son takes three. Math 2, a science (he would take Physics), and English Literature. Even though they are only an hour each, it still seems daunting because he would be studying for and taking those at the same time he’s taking multiple AP tests and studying for finals. Junior year is such a freaking grind.
I think he should prioritize preparing for the SAT/ACT, completing essays, and keeping grades up above studying for SAT Subject tests - unless he wants to be an engineering major, in which case he’ll need the Math tests for admissions.
We got the same advice as you. We were also told it’s best to take the subject test directly after the year when you take the same subject in school. So my daughter took the Biology test right after her sophomore year (when she took Biology) in HS. Turns out, her Biology class didn’t teach towards the SAT Subject Test, and she bombed the test. It crushed her, and took awhile for her to regain confidence in standardized testing. She ended up blowing off all other subject test. She’s at CMC now.
Since he doesn’t have to report the scores, it may be worth it to take the test and see how he does. Just make it a no pressure test for him. Junior year is stressful enough with everything else on their plate.
El Floppo
Footballguy
I interviewed four applicants for my alma mater this year.
one was terrible. at a good HS, but a personality-less complete nimrod.
one was circumstantially tough- but an interesting candidate. grew up in NYC public housing- hadn't really ever left the neighborhood... even to see CU uptown... or experienced much outside of neighborhood and neighborhood schools. I liked her though- had done a lot with very limited resources... a quiet leader type. thought she'd do well at CU.
two were at more elite public HSs (one at Hunter- the most prestigious in the city, and the other at the school where Floppinho goes for middle school- continues for him if he wants) . these two were the uber-achieving, whip-smart, socially involved, multi-talented, interesting, motivated, etc kids I'd expect most of your kids are like. I honestly thought they'd both be amazing for the school, and vice-versa- and couldn't have been more effusive in my interview reports.
just found out today- none of them got in.
one was terrible. at a good HS, but a personality-less complete nimrod.
one was circumstantially tough- but an interesting candidate. grew up in NYC public housing- hadn't really ever left the neighborhood... even to see CU uptown... or experienced much outside of neighborhood and neighborhood schools. I liked her though- had done a lot with very limited resources... a quiet leader type. thought she'd do well at CU.
two were at more elite public HSs (one at Hunter- the most prestigious in the city, and the other at the school where Floppinho goes for middle school- continues for him if he wants) . these two were the uber-achieving, whip-smart, socially involved, multi-talented, interesting, motivated, etc kids I'd expect most of your kids are like. I honestly thought they'd both be amazing for the school, and vice-versa- and couldn't have been more effusive in my interview reports.
just found out today- none of them got in.
E-Z Glider
Footballguy
It's tough out there. Especially for kids in public schools. My daughter has gone to school with a boy since kindergarten that I always assumed could go anywhere he chose. Valedictorian, class president, eagle scout, lead in musical, national merit scholarship, 1550 SAT, countless volunteer hours, etc, etc. He picked up a calculus book and started teaching himself over his 8th grade summer. He tested out of High School math in 10th grade and started taking college courses. I remember watching him on the quiz bowl team in 3rd grade and it was like watching Ken freakin' Jennings. Anyway, his lifelong dream has always been to go to MIT and he was just denied. I know only a TINY percent get accepted, but I thought for sure he was part of that TINY percent. He's pretty crushed. Apparently there's a section on the MIT application for you to list all of the patents you hold. Yeesh.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
My 14 year old is dead set on Stanford. It sucks as a parent knowing that she has no chance of getting in there, but I don't want to discourage her. I keep explaining how where you go for undergrad isn't a big deal--it is just get in and get on to the next level with as little debt as possible. She wants to be a doctor. Her counselors have fast-tracked her for the medical program at her high-school and she is in every AP-advanced class she can take. She is amazingly smart, but, like her older sister, she has zero life story, so she has less than-zero chance of getting in. We don't make Stanford money, but we make good money, so that is another drawback. My 14 year old shouldn't be worried about her class ranking at this age. 
She called me today at work crying because she bombed a test---what the heck....I just want her to relax and just go wherever three years from now, but she puts this pressure on herself.
My other daughter--19 in her second year of college-- that I wrote about early on in this thread is struggling in college--mainly socially. Her long term boyfriend broke up with her. She is a very beautiful young woman and is already tired of the constant bombardment of guys hitting on her at every turn. Her dumb-### sorority---let me just rant--SORORITIES SUCK!! Don't let your daughters join them. They are a beyond explainable money-pit and full of self absorbed not so nice female people. Back to my point--dumb-### sorority, yeah that's it---had a weekend where it was a dry weekend--meaning no one was supposed to drink. Well, all the girls went out and did the usual frat parties. My daughter didn't partake in that scene, but instead went with a group of couples (and a new guy she was set up with) to an apartment and watched a movie. She told me she had two wine coolers--I believe her because she is not a drinker. She came home to the sorority house by 11:00 and was in bed. The next day everyone shared their war stories of the night and my daughter confided in "what she thought" was a good friend about having those two drinks--this person turned her in to the house leaders, My daughter had to appear in front of the sorority leaders last night and is awaiting her punishment. I am proud of my daughter in that she could have ratted everyone out, but she went in and said, "yes I did it" and was willing to accept any punishment. I told her this is lesson here that underage drinking is not okay--but I am an absolute hypocrite for trying to push that as I partied my butt off at her age. She called crying today saying she just wants to come home.
Needless to say it is 3:00 here and after having both my daughters call me in tears I took the afternoon off and am enjoying a few beers....I hate what the collegiate system has made these kids become.
She called me today at work crying because she bombed a test---what the heck....I just want her to relax and just go wherever three years from now, but she puts this pressure on herself. My other daughter--19 in her second year of college-- that I wrote about early on in this thread is struggling in college--mainly socially. Her long term boyfriend broke up with her. She is a very beautiful young woman and is already tired of the constant bombardment of guys hitting on her at every turn. Her dumb-### sorority---let me just rant--SORORITIES SUCK!! Don't let your daughters join them. They are a beyond explainable money-pit and full of self absorbed not so nice female people. Back to my point--dumb-### sorority, yeah that's it---had a weekend where it was a dry weekend--meaning no one was supposed to drink. Well, all the girls went out and did the usual frat parties. My daughter didn't partake in that scene, but instead went with a group of couples (and a new guy she was set up with) to an apartment and watched a movie. She told me she had two wine coolers--I believe her because she is not a drinker. She came home to the sorority house by 11:00 and was in bed. The next day everyone shared their war stories of the night and my daughter confided in "what she thought" was a good friend about having those two drinks--this person turned her in to the house leaders, My daughter had to appear in front of the sorority leaders last night and is awaiting her punishment. I am proud of my daughter in that she could have ratted everyone out, but she went in and said, "yes I did it" and was willing to accept any punishment. I told her this is lesson here that underage drinking is not okay--but I am an absolute hypocrite for trying to push that as I partied my butt off at her age. She called crying today saying she just wants to come home.
Needless to say it is 3:00 here and after having both my daughters call me in tears I took the afternoon off and am enjoying a few beers....I hate what the collegiate system has made these kids become.
Nigel
Footballguy
Replace Stanford with Georgetown and every word of the above paragraph could have been written about my daughter three years ago.My 14 year old is dead set on Stanford. It sucks as a parent knowing that she has no chance of getting in there, but I don't want to discourage her. I keep explaining how where you go for undergrad isn't a big deal--it is just get in and get on to the next level with as little debt as possible. She wants to be a doctor. Her counselors have fast-tracked her for the medical program at her high-school and she is in every AP-advanced class she can take. She is amazingly smart, but, like her older sister, she has zero life story, so she has less than-zero chance of getting in. We don't make Stanford money, but we make good money, so that is another drawback. My 14 year old shouldn't be worried about her class ranking at this age.
Fishboy
Footballguy
LOL - my sophomore daughter is actually the Standards Leader for her sorority. She is the one that has everyone calling/texting her ratting out everyone and has to meet with and administer the punishment. Talk about a cluster fudge.
But I will admit that the sorority has been an overall positive thing for her going to an out of state university and not knowing a sole her freshman year.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Thank you for the response and the info. Been meaning to get back to this thread but got waylaid. My son is applying for engineering, which is why the Math 2 and Physics subject tests are on the table. As for English, I guess maybe our counselor (consultant actually) hopes he might be able to set himself apart from other engineering candidates. He is applying to a number of selective schools, so I assume that is why they are in the mix. Still, it’s such a drag to think about three more standardized tests. And the Physics subject test covers more than the AP Physics course he is taking now, so he’ll have to get a tutor for the balance of the material. Ugh.
The good news is that the SAT/ACT are in the rear view mirror so at least he doesn’t have that on top of everything else.
Will try to take a non-stress approach to them per your suggestion, but I have a feeling that things will get stressful regardless, particularly if there is a tutor in the mix. It is good to know, though, that he doesn’t have to turn in the scores if he doesn’t want to. Thanks for that insight.
Galileo
Footballguy
No AP Physics course aligns very well with the SAT subject test. That test is way too broad in terms of topic coverage. The best match would be to take the AP Physics 1 and 2 sequence in order to get exposure to most of those topics. I would venture to say no high school physics class could come close to covering all that content in any meaningful depth.
The_Man
Footballguy
Below is a thought experiment I do each year at this time, based on Princeton's press release about their incoming class. I pick Princeton because they always include the legacy admit number, though this year I see they have omitted the number of international students accepted. The point is to identify how many "regular" kids - not athlete, under-represented minority, legacy, etc - get admitted. Since most of the kids we followed this season seem to be girls, I focused on the stats for women.
Overall Princeton admitted 1,895 of 32,804 applicants (5.77% overall)
Regular Decision admit rate was 4.2%
1895 admits - 1061 People of Color = 834 slots left (Pton reported admitting 56% POC)
834 slots - 400 men = 434 slots left (48% of admits were men)
434 - 24 legacy = 410 slots left (11% of admits were legacy, that would be 48. Let’s estimate half were POC and have already been counted, though I think that number is way overestimated).
410 - 37 first-gen = 373 slots left (18% of admits were first gen, that would be 74. Again, to be conservative, let’s estimate that half of them were not POC)
373 - 45 international students = 328 slots left (note: Princeton did not identify the percentage of international students this year, so I used last year’s 12%. For reporting purposes, schools are not allowed to include non-resident alien students in their POC stats.)
328 slots - 45 athletes = 283 (The Ivy League allows Princeton 230 recruited athletes, half of whom are women which = 115. 65% of Ivy athletes are white which equals = 75. A conservative estimate is that 45 of these athletes haven’t already been counted as legacy or first-gen. It’s probably way more when you think about who plays soccer, tennis, squash, lacrosse, crew, etc)
So by a very conservative estimate, Princeton admitted only 283 unhooked white women this year. And that’s not even getting into faculty kids, big donors, etc. The real number is almost certainly lower, though the exact figure isn't important.
What's important is the unescapable reality that your daughter would literally have to be one of the top 5 or 6 female applicants in your entire state to have a realistic shot at getting into Princeton, unless she fit into one of the mentioned categories above.
My younger kid is a sophomore in high school, and I've already told him that Yale is off the table. We are going to be highly strategic in shooting our Early Decision bullet because it's the only chance he has of cracking the schools that he's put on his preliminary list. That means the Early Action schools like Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Georgetown are all off the list. I just don't believe EA gives nearly the admissions boost that binding ED does.
And by the time Fall 2020 rolls around, I will probably have crossed some ED schools off the list too - because I'm going to want him to apply ED to a place where he is at/above the 75th percentile of the admitted class. I think that's the only hope of bringing any predictability to the process. Maybe I'll let him shoot an ED shot at a reach like Northwestern or Brown, but only if he commits to applying ED2 to somewhere like Wash U in St. Louis or Wesleyan after that first app (almost inevitably) doesn't land an acceptance.
Overall Princeton admitted 1,895 of 32,804 applicants (5.77% overall)
Regular Decision admit rate was 4.2%
1895 admits - 1061 People of Color = 834 slots left (Pton reported admitting 56% POC)
834 slots - 400 men = 434 slots left (48% of admits were men)
434 - 24 legacy = 410 slots left (11% of admits were legacy, that would be 48. Let’s estimate half were POC and have already been counted, though I think that number is way overestimated).
410 - 37 first-gen = 373 slots left (18% of admits were first gen, that would be 74. Again, to be conservative, let’s estimate that half of them were not POC)
373 - 45 international students = 328 slots left (note: Princeton did not identify the percentage of international students this year, so I used last year’s 12%. For reporting purposes, schools are not allowed to include non-resident alien students in their POC stats.)
328 slots - 45 athletes = 283 (The Ivy League allows Princeton 230 recruited athletes, half of whom are women which = 115. 65% of Ivy athletes are white which equals = 75. A conservative estimate is that 45 of these athletes haven’t already been counted as legacy or first-gen. It’s probably way more when you think about who plays soccer, tennis, squash, lacrosse, crew, etc)
So by a very conservative estimate, Princeton admitted only 283 unhooked white women this year. And that’s not even getting into faculty kids, big donors, etc. The real number is almost certainly lower, though the exact figure isn't important.
What's important is the unescapable reality that your daughter would literally have to be one of the top 5 or 6 female applicants in your entire state to have a realistic shot at getting into Princeton, unless she fit into one of the mentioned categories above.
My younger kid is a sophomore in high school, and I've already told him that Yale is off the table. We are going to be highly strategic in shooting our Early Decision bullet because it's the only chance he has of cracking the schools that he's put on his preliminary list. That means the Early Action schools like Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Georgetown are all off the list. I just don't believe EA gives nearly the admissions boost that binding ED does.
And by the time Fall 2020 rolls around, I will probably have crossed some ED schools off the list too - because I'm going to want him to apply ED to a place where he is at/above the 75th percentile of the admitted class. I think that's the only hope of bringing any predictability to the process. Maybe I'll let him shoot an ED shot at a reach like Northwestern or Brown, but only if he commits to applying ED2 to somewhere like Wash U in St. Louis or Wesleyan after that first app (almost inevitably) doesn't land an acceptance.
75% is nice, but my son was at that level for UNC (we are in state which has a mandated 80ish% of the class) and he got waitlisted. I still can’t get how an involved kid who never got less than an A, had SATs at the top of their 25% to 75% range, had the APs, etc. and didn’t get in but a friend with a below 25% was accepted.
I still can’t wrap my head around why he didn’t outside of some sort of artificial quota/cut off like only X students per high school or gender, etc.
Oh well, he’s good but some of these stories are crazy.
chet
Footballguy
The POC number is insanely high--maybe they've taken AA too far? Did they publish the POC number, or is it an estimate? Thanks for this info. Being in the middle of this process, I can tell you that it's insanely competitive. Earlier this year, I heard the dean of a department's child was rejected from Stanford.
The_Man
Footballguy
They published it: https://www.princeton.edu/news/2019/03/28/princeton-pleased-offer-admission-1895-students-class-2023
That final percentage will come down for the enrolled Class of 2023, because I'm sure they'll lose some of the highly talented POC they admitted to other top schools that also admitted them. Here are the stats for the 1,305 students who enrolled in last year's enrolled Class of 2022 (from Princeton's Common Data Set: https://registrar.princeton.edu/sites/registrar/files/2019-02/common_cds_2017-2018.pdf)
Hispanic/Latino - 10.9%
African American - 8.1%
Asian American - 22.5%
Bi-racial - 4.8%
I don't think enrolling 106 African American kids from the entire United States in the freshman class at Princeton is taking it too far. It's just ludicrously competitive for everyone at this point.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
MIT is one of the few schools in the country where being a boy does not help you. Boys at MIT are treated like girls at all the Ivey's and other tier one colleges in terms of unimaginable competition.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Yeah, we've pretty much scratched all the Ivys off the list for our son, as well as Stanford, MIT and Caltech. Looking solely at the GPA and Test score data, it appears that he has a decent shot, but for the reasons you discuss above, we know he really doesn't.
The thing that is problematic for us is that his top choice doesn't do ED, so he won't have that advantage going for him.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
Such an odd test to have then. Let's have a subject matter test for high school students on subjects they are unable to learn in high school.
chet
Footballguy
I was more referring to the 1061/1895 ratio. Well over half of the entering class qualify as people of color?
I agree that 106 AAs isn't taking it too far but my anecdotal experience tells me that maybe the right kids aren't getting the affirmative action boost as it was intended. There's a wealthy African American family (bi-racial) family at our school. Youngest son in my daughter's class was admitted to Harvard (EA), Princeton, Yale and Georgetown this year. His older brother attended Harvard and his sister Princeton. All smart accomplished people who also got the affirmative action boost.
The_Man
Footballguy
To me, one of the most interesting things to come out of the Harvard affirmative action lawsuit was the information that Harvard was not "dumbing down" its standards to admit more minorities. However, our society currently produces far fewer African Americans than white or Asian Americans that meet the admitted student profile. As a result, there are very few African Americans who meet the admissions standards and they are in great demand among selective schools seeking to enroll a diverse student body.
According to this Brookings Institute study about race gaps in SAT scores, in 2016 there were 16,000 whites and 29,570 Asians who scored above a Math 750, compared to only at most 1,000 blacks and 2,400 Latinos. Guess what? Every top school in the country is going to flock to admit the highest-scoring African American students. And also guess what? The vast majority of those 1,000 black students are going to come from affluent, educated families and go to strong schools -- just like the white kids who post similar scores.
To me, Harvard's affirmative action isn't (and shouldn't) be about lowering standards to let kids from certain groups in. But it can certainly be about letting in every kid from an Under-Represented Minority that does meet those standards, even though most of them are rich and privileged.
Nigel
Footballguy
My daughter's biggest regret is not applying ED at Northwestern, where she was waitlisted. Apparently there's a 4x better chance of getting in ED there than you do RD. She's convinced herself she would have gotten in, but who knows. Too focused on G'Town, fatal flaw...
The_Man
Footballguy
Northwestern hasn't released this year's overall numbers, but last year's ED acceptance rate was 26% vs. 6.4% for RD (and 8.4% overall). It is known as one of the schools that you absolutely need to apply early to - along with Penn, Wash U in St. Louis, and Vanderbilt. Again, you won't get in if you're not qualified, but if you exceed their admitted student profile, then there's a much better chance of admission (especially if you're full pay). They'd rather lock a kid in early that wants to be there, rather than wait for kids who'd rather go to Harvard or Princeton but don't get in.
I hate how much of this has now become a kind of game theory.
Tick
Footballguy
My daughter chose Alabama yesterday during her campus visit. 3 of the 5 families touring the honors dorms were from Michigan (spring break week). She made the same choice I made in her position 30 years ago (free decent school in a warm climate vs. expensive better school in a cold climate). She's going for pre-med, so she just wanted to get out of undergraduate with no debt from a good enough school to get into med school.
My wife said people students stopped to help them when they were looking at a map, the weather was great, everyone was cheerful, and the whole tour was perfect. Interestingly, that's the exact report I gave her after visiting Oklahoma, and all but the good weather was true at A&M, though the cadet corps are a bit goofy.
My wife said people students stopped to help them when they were looking at a map, the weather was great, everyone was cheerful, and the whole tour was perfect. Interestingly, that's the exact report I gave her after visiting Oklahoma, and all but the good weather was true at A&M, though the cadet corps are a bit goofy.
chet
Footballguy
You can't blame yourself. She's lucky to have a father who's so involved and cares so much.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Wasn’t Georgetown her top choice? If so, you weren’t going to succeed in convincing her not to apply there.
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