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[DYNASTY] Lamar Jackson, MVP, Madden Cover. Hopefully Develops as a Passer


massraider

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18 minutes ago, Gally said:

Lamar has only done this for one year (so far).  Vick did have the incredible year in Philly that was very similar to what Lamar is doing right now.  This could be a single peak year for Lamar (I think he will still be very good just not sure he will match this peak again) similar to that peak year for Vick.

 

Vick was past his prime by that point after wasting years. Jackson hasn't even entered his prime yet. 

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19 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Vick was past his prime by that point after wasting years. Jackson hasn't even entered his prime yet. 

I was taking "peak years" as actual production peak not in their career prime age years.  Based on your comment you meant it differently. 

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4 minutes ago, Gally said:

I was taking "peak years" as actual production peak not in their career prime age years.  Based on your comment you meant it differently. 

I just mean Vick's peak may have lasted longer if he wasn't so old by the time that Eagle's season happened. Hard to say.

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2 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

I just mean Vick's peak may have lasted longer if he wasn't so old by the time that Eagle's season happened. Hard to say.

As has been stated in here, what Lamar is doing is historical so I would guess that he will taper off even if he hasn't hit his "prime" yet.   Vick was always a solid FF asset even if his real football performance wasn't there.  Lamar and Vick are obvious comps and Lamar will be a great FF asset until his speed drops.  Lamar does have a chance to fly way past Vick if his passing keeps developing.  Lamar has also had (to this point) a coach that is playing to his strengths rather than trying to change him into something he is not.  I am not sure if Vick had that same luxury during his development. 

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2 hours ago, Gally said:

As has been stated in here, what Lamar is doing is historical so I would guess that he will taper off even if he hasn't hit his "prime" yet.   Vick was always a solid FF asset even if his real football performance wasn't there.  Lamar and Vick are obvious comps and Lamar will be a great FF asset until his speed drops.  Lamar does have a chance to fly way past Vick if his passing keeps developing.  Lamar has also had (to this point) a coach that is playing to his strengths rather than trying to change him into something he is not.  I am not sure if Vick had that same luxury during his development. 

vick is a good comp but man i have seen more from lamars arm this season than anything i recall from vick.  lamar > vick already 

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1 hour ago, need2know said:

vick is a good comp but man i have seen more from lamars arm this season than anything i recall from vick.  lamar > vick already 

Vick's arm was much better than Lamar's.   Vick was not very accurate and never really developed that (that could be due to a prison sentence hindering that development) accuracy.  It is obvious Lamar has worked on that over the off season but I also think the coaching staff deserves a ton of credit for giving him complimentary weapons to his strengths and developing the offense that also plays well to his strengths.  I agree as an all around QB Lamar is well on his way to passing up Vick and has probably done so already if he keeps at this level.  My only concern is he has played basically one full NFL season.  Things can change in a hurry.

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As a Louisville guy, I don't attempt an objective analysis of LJ too often, as my bias is off the charts. However, I made a comment in this past Sunday's game thread that sums up my opinion pretty well.

I stated that while LJ has "off the charts" level athleticism, I honestly believe that his greatest asset is his field awareness. This plays a very large role in his ability to run, as he seems to have a "bubble" around him that aids in his elusiveness; also resulting in lesser punishment from taking big hits (in most cases - some of his designed runs do expose him to larger hits).

This is also demonstrated in his exceptionally low turnover rate. Outside of week 4 (Cle) & 5 (@Pit) he has no turnovers this year that I am aware of. Last year, he totaled only 4 interceptions, but I am not sure if he had any fumbles resulting in a turnover.

Finally, if my hypothesis is true, then I see no reason that he will not continue to improve as a pocket passer. I played QB at the high school level, and for me, the most difficult thing was awareness while under pressure. It is one thing to have a strong and accurate arm in warm ups and throwing drills, however, it is quite another to keep everything in focus while the walls are collapsing. LJ handles the collapsing pocket while keeping his wits as well as any QB I have ever watched.

The sky is the limit, though I do acknowledge the higher than average injury risk. As a FF manager, I am willing to take that risk. I am also glad that the Ravens are willing to take the risk as well. I also believe that his exceptional awareness mitigates some of the risk, but not all of it.

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1 hour ago, Man of Constant Sorrow said:

As a Louisville guy, I don't attempt an objective analysis of LJ too often, as my bias is off the charts. However, I made a comment in this past Sunday's game thread that sums up my opinion pretty well.

I stated that while LJ has "off the charts" level athleticism, I honestly believe that his greatest asset is his field awareness. This plays a very large role in his ability to run, as he seems to have a "bubble" around him that aids in his elusiveness; also resulting in lesser punishment from taking big hits (in most cases - some of his designed runs do expose him to larger hits).

This is also demonstrated in his exceptionally low turnover rate. Outside of week 4 (Cle) & 5 (@Pit) he has no turnovers this year that I am aware of. Last year, he totaled only 4 interceptions, but I am not sure if he had any fumbles resulting in a turnover.

Finally, if my hypothesis is true, then I see no reason that he will not continue to improve as a pocket passer. I played QB at the high school level, and for me, the most difficult thing was awareness while under pressure. It is one thing to have a strong and accurate arm in warm ups and throwing drills, however, it is quite another to keep everything in focus while the walls are collapsing. LJ handles the collapsing pocket while keeping his wits as well as any QB I have ever watched.

The sky is the limit, though I do acknowledge the higher than average injury risk. As a FF manager, I am willing to take that risk. I am also glad that the Ravens are willing to take the risk as well. I also believe that his exceptional awareness mitigates some of the risk, but not all of it.

You make a great point with the field awareness. It's not only what gets you extra yards, it as you said helps find safe outs to avoid big hits.  Not a QB, but Barry Sanders also had a lot of that.

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1 hour ago, Leroy Hoard said:

You make a great point with the field awareness. It's not only what gets you extra yards, it as you said helps find safe outs to avoid big hits.  Not a QB, but Barry Sanders also had a lot of that.

I agree with the Sanders comp. 

Also, thnx for clarifying my post. When I read it now, it's kinda confusing on this point. 

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3 hours ago, Man of Constant Sorrow said:

As a Louisville guy, I don't attempt an objective analysis of LJ too often, as my bias is off the charts. However, I made a comment in this past Sunday's game thread that sums up my opinion pretty well.

I stated that while LJ has "off the charts" level athleticism, I honestly believe that his greatest asset is his field awareness. This plays a very large role in his ability to run, as he seems to have a "bubble" around him that aids in his elusiveness; also resulting in lesser punishment from taking big hits (in most cases - some of his designed runs do expose him to larger hits).

This is also demonstrated in his exceptionally low turnover rate. Outside of week 4 (Cle) & 5 (@Pit) he has no turnovers this year that I am aware of. Last year, he totaled only 4 interceptions, but I am not sure if he had any fumbles resulting in a turnover.

Finally, if my hypothesis is true, then I see no reason that he will not continue to improve as a pocket passer. I played QB at the high school level, and for me, the most difficult thing was awareness while under pressure. It is one thing to have a strong and accurate arm in warm ups and throwing drills, however, it is quite another to keep everything in focus while the walls are collapsing. LJ handles the collapsing pocket while keeping his wits as well as any QB I have ever watched.

The sky is the limit, though I do acknowledge the higher than average injury risk. As a FF manager, I am willing to take that risk. I am also glad that the Ravens are willing to take the risk as well. I also believe that his exceptional awareness mitigates some of the risk, but not all of it.

I am in complete agreement.  I alluded to this point in a previous post but not nearly as concise.  The term of "field awareness" is perfect to describe how he runs and avoids hits.  Compare that to RG3 who took a ton of punishment running because he didn't have that awareness.  That is why I agree that Lamar is not your typical running QB so he seems to have less injury risk because of it. 

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59 minutes ago, Gally said:

I am in complete agreement.  I alluded to this point in a previous post but not nearly as concise.  The term of "field awareness" is perfect to describe how he runs and avoids hits.  Compare that to RG3 who took a ton of punishment running because he didn't have that awareness.  That is why I agree that Lamar is not your typical running QB so he seems to have less injury risk because of it. 

Thnx. I agree with the RGIII point. And, to take that "awareness" beyond just running; in the same game thread I mentioned above, I compared him to D. Watson. In that game, Watson showed off the charts athleticism as well. However, on one particular play, his ability to stay on his feet (from his athleticism) actually backfired on him, because he lost his focus and threw the ball straight into a Balt defender's hands. I am not saying that Watson has bad awareness. I am saying that his awareness failed him on that play. LJ does not lose his focus in that way very often. And, it should improve as the game slows down for him.

Further, awareness plays a much larger role in the passing game than is often cited. People most often talk about the ability to absorb a playbook and then read the defense while going through the progression. This skips what may be the most important part; awareness of the environment. One cannot "read" what they are not "aware" of. Worse, if one is not aware of the actual environment, then one is more likely to assume it corresponds to the "X's & O's" that has been committed to mental & body memory through repetitive practice.

I believe that many QB's are unfairly criticized for their ability to "read" a def. Often, when they are aware, they read perfectly fine. However, in the heat of the game, awareness breaks down, and bad decisions are made not from a bad "read", but from reading faulty data caused by awareness gaps. LJ exceles in this type of awareness as well. He is not overly reliant on the "virtual reality" of a highly practiced play. While it is very important to have this "virtual reality memory" skill (most often demonstrated when the pass is made before a receiver even makes the break in order to get open); it is more important to be aware in order to both avoid mistakes and capitalize on opportunities.

Further, when you are a running QB, this awareness transfers over to the run option plays. So, even before we get to the up-close awareness of eluding defenders, a QB like LJ has a multitude of potential advantages long term, even if his running game is taken away or limited ... which makes him even more difficult to counteract for D coordinators. 

I gotta take a walk. Thnx for the LJ talk. I'll prolly think of more.

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Interesting conversation about Lamar's awareness. I agree - it's almost like he is able to process things a fraction of a second faster than everyone else. I see it in his signature running move, which to me is the way he'll suddenly stop while running at full speed and just let his pursuer go flying by. In those moments, it's like he is intuitively aware of how fast he's going, how fast the pursuer is closing, and when to hit the brakes. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone do it like he does - maybe Barry Sanders? But even for Sanders it was often more of a sudden change of direction rather than a full stop. Though I do worry that he might get blindsided doing that someday, stopping to let one guy fly by and then getting crushed from behind by another defender he was unaware of in his blind spot.

His awareness also shows in his decision-making about when to handoff and when to keep the ball. I can think of maybe 2 times all season where he kept the ball when he should have handed it off, or vice versa. It's incredible how quickly he can surmise if the end is crashing down on the RB, or staying outside to take away the end from Lamar. Again, his processing speed in making the right decision is remarkable.

Harbaugh has been praising his football smarts all season long. My biggest wish at this point is that he doesn't break the pocket and scramble quite enough for my liking. I'll have to look back but it seems like he only scrambles when he's forced outside the pocket or on a planned rollout; inside the pocket he stays and stays, looking for a target until sometimes it's too late and he's sacked. I'd love to see him tuck it up and run a little earlier sometimes. But then again, teams have been playing a spy in the middle of the field a lot, so maybe that's why he only seems to scramble to the outside. 

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He's probably convinced the whole fantasy world by now right? 

So what is he worth in dynasty?  Is he the clear 1.01 in superflex types of leagues?  Do you easily trade him away now that everyone is on board?  Is a guy like Keenan Allen enough (I say no but my friend says its even)?  

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4 minutes ago, Zyphros said:

He's probably convinced the whole fantasy world by now right? 

So what is he worth in dynasty?  Is he the clear 1.01 in superflex types of leagues?  Do you easily trade him away now that everyone is on board?  Is a guy like Keenan Allen enough (I say no but my friend says its even)?  

I don't see anything but McCaffrey moving the needle in those leagues.

In 1 QB leagues maybe you could have some reasonable discussions. I still don't see much reason to sell him.

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1 minute ago, Biabreakable said:

I don't see anything but McCaffrey moving the needle in those leagues.

In 1 QB leagues maybe you could have some reasonable discussions. I still don't see much reason to sell him.

No reason to sell sure, but if he is on a team that needs lots of work who do you sell for?  

McCaffrey, Dalvin maybe?, Barkley, Mahomes+, Godwin+ maybe? /endlist?

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9 minutes ago, Biabreakable said:

I don't see anything but McCaffrey moving the needle in those leagues.

In 1 QB leagues maybe you could have some reasonable discussions. I still don't see much reason to sell him.

I worry enough about the added injury risk from all the running that I'd consider Mahomes + a secondary piece.

McCaffery would be tempting too, but doesn't have the same longevity advantage.

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Quote

Lamar Jackson completed 15-of-20 passes for 169 yards and five touchdowns in the Ravens' Week 12 blowout win over the Rams Monday night, adding 95 rushing yards on eight attempts.

As has become the norm with the Ravens, Jackson got the night off early with the Ravens clocking the Rams 42-6 early in the fourth quarter. L.A. had zero answer for anything the Ravens were doing offensively. The Ravens were 9-of-12 on third downs when Jackson left the game, and no matter the distance on them, it seemed like a near lock they'd convert. Jackson's five touchdowns went to Marquise Brown (two), Willie Snead (two), and Mark Ingram. It's scary to think Jackson is doing all of this with maybe the weakest receiver group in the NFL. With tonight's effort, Jackson became the first player in league history with four-plus passing touchdowns and 50-plus rushing yards in back-to-back games. He's the MVP. Hands down. The Ravens host the 49ers in Week 13.

 

Edited by The Frankman
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1 minute ago, Bigboy10182000 said:

If Greg Roman leaves I’d be worried. I think a lot of his value is tied to his OC 

I’ve already been hearing scuttlebutt that the Ravens are willing to make him a very highly compensated OC rather than losing him. 

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12 minutes ago, Zyphros said:

No reason to sell sure, but if he is on a team that needs lots of work who do you sell for?  

McCaffrey, Dalvin maybe?, Barkley, Mahomes+, Godwin+ maybe? /endlist?

In a scenario where Jackson is my only piece then picks and young WRs.

If you are loaded then an upgrade to McCaffrey would be a short term play for championship push, assuming you have or are getting a QB who will be a downgrade, but maybe not as large a margin as McCaffrey and who your starting at RB.

 

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13 minutes ago, Arodin said:

I worry enough about the added injury risk from all the running that I'd consider Mahomes + a secondary piece.

McCaffery would be tempting too, but doesn't have the same longevity advantage.

I agree Jackson better from a long term view than McCaffrey, but also additional risk of injury because of how much he runs. 

Luck ran a lot and retiree early. You never know.

It's such a huge advantage though. Look at the points man!!

That's an edge that I want a part of for however long it lasts. Its unique.  Its irreplacable.

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25 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

I’ve already been hearing scuttlebutt that the Ravens are willing to make him a very highly compensated OC rather than losing him. 

It is very fortunate for Lamar Jackson that Greg Roman elevated himself from middling offensive mind to innovative chess master right when Lamar Jackson arrived.   

Also, Lamar, congratulations on the happy event that all of your offensive linemen improved their run blocking dramatically right before you started.  

Edited by massraider
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Assume MVP is his to lose at this point? Kind of a 3-man race in the media's eyes coming into the weekend... Lamar, Wilson, and Prescott all playing on the road... one clearly stood out above the other two.

Honorable mention - Christian McCaffrey... playing great, but on a middle-of-the-road team.

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5 hours ago, tjnc09 said:

I'm definitely buying a Wild Dog sweatshirt with all the riches this guy is going to win me

Cleaning up 

5 hours ago, Dizzy said:

Assume MVP is his to lose at this point? Kind of a 3-man race in the media's eyes coming into the weekend... Lamar, Wilson, and Prescott all playing on the road... one clearly stood out above the other two.

Honorable mention - Christian McCaffrey... playing great, but on a middle-of-the-road team.

You have to be out of your mind to cast a vote for anyone other than Lamar 

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7 hours ago, Dizzy said:

Assume MVP is his to lose at this point? Kind of a 3-man race in the media's eyes coming into the weekend... Lamar, Wilson, and Prescott all playing on the road... one clearly stood out above the other two.

Honorable mention - Christian McCaffrey... playing great, but on a middle-of-the-road team.

Prescott is a distant third.  Its lamar by a mile

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