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[DYNASTY] Lamar Jackson, MVP, Madden Cover. Hopefully Develops as a Passer


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27 minutes ago, need2know said:

Prescott is a distant third.  Its lamar by a mile

But Dak actually finishes games. I can’t vote for an MVP who only plays 3/4 of a game. The 4th quarter is where champions are made and Lamar rarely plays in them anymore. His poor fantasy owners who see him come out of the game with 15 minutes left are likely suffering big time over his inability to finish. 

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2 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

But Dak actually finishes games. I can’t vote for an MVP who only plays 3/4 of a game. The 4th quarter is where champions are made and Lamar rarely plays in them anymore. His poor fantasy owners who see him come out of the game with 15 minutes left are likely suffering big time over his inability to finish. 

Umm.... you mean Dak plays 4 quarters. having not beaten a single team with a winning record, you can't quite say that Dak finishes anything.

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11 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

I agree Jackson better from a long term view than McCaffrey, but also additional risk of injury because of how much he runs. 

Luck ran a lot and retiree early. You never know.

It's such a huge advantage though. Look at the points man!!

That's an edge that I want a part of for however long it lasts. Its unique.  Its irreplacable.

They run completely differently......and I don't mean the speed.  Lamar has an awareness that I have never seen in a QB.  Last night was the first night I have actually seen him take a big hit (by Brockers in the 1st quarter).  I know it only takes one but for some reason I don't get the "worry of injury" feeling when he takes off like I do with other mobile QB's.  He glides around and by everyone so easily with such awareness it is just different.  Hard to explain in words.  It's just different. 

 

Injury risk is always there, I just don't think it's much higher than any other player regardless of his play style. 

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1 hour ago, Dizzy said:

Umm.... you mean Dak plays 4 quarters. having not beaten a single team with a winning record, you can't quite say that Dak finishes anything.

Well I was obviously joking so I didn’t mean anything. Dak has played very well this year. His coaches have made some questionable decisions though.

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1 hour ago, Gally said:

They run completely differently......and I don't mean the speed.  Lamar has an awareness that I have never seen in a QB.  Last night was the first night I have actually seen him take a big hit (by Brockers in the 1st quarter).  I know it only takes one but for some reason I don't get the "worry of injury" feeling when he takes off like I do with other mobile QB's.  He glides around and by everyone so easily with such awareness it is just different.  Hard to explain in words.  It's just different. 

 

Injury risk is always there, I just don't think it's much higher than any other player regardless of his play style. 

I agree they are different. Was just trying to give an example of a QB who ran a fair amount who was injured.

Any player can get injured on any given play. I don't want to play scared. So I will cross that bridge if I come to it. Just acknowledging that it is additional risk, I am not sure how much more risk or how to quantify that.

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13 hours ago, metoo said:

I got offered a late 2020 1st. Lamar and CMC have been killing it for me.

I tried moving him right before the season started because I also had Mahomes and Allen at QB. A guy offered me a 3rd round rookie pick and I countered with Jackson and a 4th for a 2nd. He turned it down. Had another owner say they had no interest in him in a single QB league. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you can't get done.

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On 11/20/2019 at 7:47 PM, Man of Constant Sorrow said:

Thnx. I agree with the RGIII point. And, to take that "awareness" beyond just running; in the same game thread I mentioned above, I compared him to D. Watson. In that game, Watson showed off the charts athleticism as well. However, on one particular play, his ability to stay on his feet (from his athleticism) actually backfired on him, because he lost his focus and threw the ball straight into a Balt defender's hands. I am not saying that Watson has bad awareness. I am saying that his awareness failed him on that play. LJ does not lose his focus in that way very often. And, it should improve as the game slows down for him.

Further, awareness plays a much larger role in the passing game than is often cited. People most often talk about the ability to absorb a playbook and then read the defense while going through the progression. This skips what may be the most important part; awareness of the environment. One cannot "read" what they are not "aware" of. Worse, if one is not aware of the actual environment, then one is more likely to assume it corresponds to the "X's & O's" that has been committed to mental & body memory through repetitive practice.

I believe that many QB's are unfairly criticized for their ability to "read" a def. Often, when they are aware, they read perfectly fine. However, in the heat of the game, awareness breaks down, and bad decisions are made not from a bad "read", but from reading faulty data caused by awareness gaps. LJ exceles in this type of awareness as well. He is not overly reliant on the "virtual reality" of a highly practiced play. While it is very important to have this "virtual reality memory" skill (most often demonstrated when the pass is made before a receiver even makes the break in order to get open); it is more important to be aware in order to both avoid mistakes and capitalize on opportunities.

Further, when you are a running QB, this awareness transfers over to the run option plays. So, even before we get to the up-close awareness of eluding defenders, a QB like LJ has a multitude of potential advantages long term, even if his running game is taken away or limited ... which makes him even more difficult to counteract for D coordinators. 

I enjoyed this conversation last week and thought of it last night, when Lamar's processing speed seemed obviously ahead of everyone else on the field's. It's like he's Neo in The Matrix - very calm and relaxed as he goes about his business, never rushing, and yet moving noticeably faster than everyone else. One play summed it up - he got flushed out of the pocket to his right and yet he remained totally relaxed in the face of an unblocked rusher, took a little time to direct traffic, then drilled Boyle at the sticks for something like an 8-yard game. In the context of his many great plays last night, it was no big deal except for how it demonstrated his complete awareness and control.

Wade Phillips threw everything at him. One TD was vs an all-out blitz with zero coverage from the Safety. Another came on a 3-man rush with 8 defenders dropped into zone. He made flawless reads all night. 

Who knows how long this can last? He did take more solid shots last night than he has pretty much all season. If this is a comet flashing across the landscape, never to be seen again quite like this, then I'm just going to enjoy every bit of it while it's here. When's the last time a football player made his team's games must-watch television?

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14 hours ago, Bigboy10182000 said:

If Greg Roman leaves I’d be worried. I think a lot of his value is tied to his OC 

That's funny because when that clown was in SF, I had to give up on Frank Gore. He singlehandedly turned Gore into a ham & egger from a stud RB.

Norv Turner, Jim 'clueless' Hostler, even Jimmy Raye all got the ball to Frank Gore about 70+ catches a year. That clown came in and the passing game to the RB disappeared. It's plain as day in Gores stat sheet. You can pick out the 4 years that loser was the OC.

I doubt losing Roman will hurt at all. He will however further destroy whatever team he goes to. Roman is total fools gold.

Credit should go to the OL because it is easily top 5 if not #1.

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2 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Well I was obviously joking so I didn’t mean anything. Dak has played very well this year. His coaches have made some questionable decisions though.

Agreed.

Saw a list this morning of 6 active NFL head coaches w/ 10 (or more) years on the job... Garrett only name on the list w/o Super Bowl win (and long list of play off appearances).

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49 minutes ago, lod001 said:

That's funny because when that clown was in SF, I had to give up on Frank Gore. He singlehandedly turned Gore into a ham & egger from a stud RB.

Norv Turner, Jim 'clueless' Hostler, even Jimmy Raye all got the ball to Frank Gore about 70+ catches a year. That clown came in and the passing game to the RB disappeared. It's plain as day in Gores stat sheet. You can pick out the 4 years that loser was the OC.

I doubt losing Roman will hurt at all. He will however further destroy whatever team he goes to. Roman is total fools gold.

Credit should go to the OL because it is easily top 5 if not #1.

How did his offense make Colin Kaepernick look while he was there with Jim Harbaugh?

 

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15 hours ago, Weebs210 said:

People actually sold this guy 😂

I sold Deshaun Watson for a top 5 rookie pick in 2020.....I went with LAAAAMAAAARRRR!

It's crazy. In my longtime dynasty league I was able to draft Cam Newton in round 3 (he won me a title) drafted Deshaun Watson in round 3 and grabbed Lamar in round 2. I decided early on this season to rebuild my squad around Lamar. I love Deshaun too.....but like Biabreakable said....the rushing yards are insane. He is two players in one and I want to ride that for however long I can. And you can bet I will draft a rookie QB every year moving forward. I always have when I see a great undervalued talent. The position has evolved and changed a lot. Athletic QB's are here to stay and will be drafted accordingly by NFL teams. Build a new system around your talent. That is what great coaches do. 

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I have not yet organized all of my thoughts from last nights game. This time, I'd like to review some clips.

At one time, I subscribed to the NFL Gamepass (? I think that is what it was called then) that had multiple camera views available - without sound. Does anyone know of any good free sources for game film?

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2 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

I agree they are different. Was just trying to give an example of a QB who ran a fair amount who was injured.

Any player can get injured on any given play. I don't want to play scared. So I will cross that bridge if I come to it. Just acknowledging that it is additional risk, I am not sure how much more risk or how to quantify that.

Steve Young was a tremendous scrambler.....Lamar just takes it to a new level. But I remember Young and he would dazzle with his legs too. That is the last running QB who also has this type of passing ability. (Cunningham to a lesser degree). Vick never had the accuracy that Lamar is now showing.

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22 minutes ago, sneakerfreak said:

Ummm... Mahomes last season?

I can see that. Just for me, QBs throwing passes has never been true appointment viewing. The reason Lamar is so exciting to me is the feeling you might see something you've never seen before - and that's not a feeling I generally get from passers, though Mahomes last year came close as did Favre in his prime. 

The guys that come to my mind are Deion returning punts, Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson, and sometimes Lawrence Taylor - guys in the field of play using their power and elusiveness to do something spectacular. 

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15 hours ago, Zyphros said:

He's probably convinced the whole fantasy world by now right? 

So what is he worth in dynasty?  Is he the clear 1.01 in superflex types of leagues?  Do you easily trade him away now that everyone is on board?  Is a guy like Keenan Allen enough (I say no but my friend says its even)?  

I traded a 2020 mid-late 1st and 2nd for him about a month ago.  I think he is worth even more now.  

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1 minute ago, The_Man said:

I can see that. Just for me, QBs throwing passes has never been true appointment viewing. The reason Lamar is so exciting to me is the feeling you might see something you've never seen before - and that's not a feeling I generally get from passers, though Mahomes last year came close as did Favre in his prime. 

The guys that come to my mind are Deion returning punts, Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson, and sometimes Lawrence Taylor - guys in the field of play using their power and elusiveness to do something spectacular. 

Back in my time Dan Marino was insane to watch. He to this day made passes....no one ever has. The incredible precision, accuracy and just the quick release....it was something to behold. I too also loved watching Favre's career. Toughest QB I ever watched in my life and damn could he fling it. 

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9 minutes ago, The_Man said:

I can see that. Just for me, QBs throwing passes has never been true appointment viewing. The reason Lamar is so exciting to me is the feeling you might see something you've never seen before - and that's not a feeling I generally get from passers, though Mahomes last year came close as did Favre in his prime. 

The guys that come to my mind are Deion returning punts, Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson, and sometimes Lawrence Taylor - guys in the field of play using their power and elusiveness to do something spectacular. 

Good examples. 

IRT "power", I will nominate Earl Campbell to this list as well. As a kid, I got to see most of this live. 

Oilers 34 was the last NFL jersey I owned ... till now. 

Thnx, LJ 😍

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1 hour ago, The_Man said:

I enjoyed this conversation last week and thought of it last night, when Lamar's processing speed seemed obviously ahead of everyone else on the field's. It's like he's Neo in The Matrix - very calm and relaxed as he goes about his business, never rushing, and yet moving noticeably faster than everyone else. One play summed it up - he got flushed out of the pocket to his right and yet he remained totally relaxed in the face of an unblocked rusher, took a little time to direct traffic, then drilled Boyle at the sticks for something like an 8-yard game. In the context of his many great plays last night, it was no big deal except for how it demonstrated his complete awareness and control.

Wade Phillips threw everything at him. One TD was vs an all-out blitz with zero coverage from the Safety. Another came on a 3-man rush with 8 defenders dropped into zone. He made flawless reads all night. 

Who knows how long this can last? He did take more solid shots last night than he has pretty much all season. If this is a comet flashing across the landscape, never to be seen again quite like this, then I'm just going to enjoy every bit of it while it's here. When's the last time a football player made his team's games must-watch television?

I was thinking about this last night.  I couldn’t think of anyone since Barry Sanders that provokes as much entertainment and pure joy watching, irrespective of score and game outcome, as Lamar.

And let’s be honest, Lamar has a lot more impact on a game than Barry even; and he’s my favorite RB I’ve ever seen play.

The closest other comp I can  think of as a runner isn’t even Vick - who was fast as all heck, and had good one cut ability, but neither the fluidity or overall change of direction multiple times that we see with Lamar.  Only thin I’ve seen like they are the tapes of Gale freakin’ Sayers.

cant believe this is one of my two teams (Born in Baltimore raised in NY, so Ravens and O’s, Giants, Mets, Knick’s and Isles). The only thing close to this much fun to watch was the LT led Giants D... but with the Ravens you have a seemingly unstoppable offense that is as different as Lamar is special, and a growingly impactful defense (not to mention arguably the best kicker ever and certainly of today plus overall great special teams). 
 

It’s like they have all the fundamentals as a foundation and throw in the most special single talent we’ve seen at the most important position, maybe ever (again, have to see if he can keep it going health wise and when there is an offseason to try and limit what their offense is going... but damn, it’s like one of those unstoppable option running games AND the ability to throw a great touch pass and wonderful deep ball all in one)

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3 hours ago, rickyg said:

I traded a 2020 mid-late 1st and 2nd for him about a month ago.  I think he is worth even more now.  

Last off season I traded pick 1.08 (turned out to be Hockenson) for Jackson in a Super Flex league.    I have been happy with the results. 

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3 hours ago, Koya said:

I was thinking about this last night.  I couldn’t think of anyone since Barry Sanders that provokes as much entertainment and pure joy watching, irrespective of score and game outcome, as Lamar.

And let’s be honest, Lamar has a lot more impact on a game than Barry even; and he’s my favorite RB I’ve ever seen

The closest other comp I can  think of as a runner isn’t even Vick - who was fast as all heck, and had good one cut ability, but neither the fluidity or overall change of direction multiple times that we see with Lamar.  Only thin I’ve seen like they are the tapes of Gale freakin’ Sayers.

People say Vick and/or Cunningham all the time. But it’s not really that close. Both of them had much stronger arms (if you’ve seen Lamar throw the deep out, it’s not pretty and from the far hash it’s actually bad) but less accuracy, especially Vick  

I’ve also been saying Sayers as a runner. And then I’ve been trying to think who’s the comp as a passer. The closest I’ve come up with is Chad Pennington. So if you put Chad Pennington into Gale Sayers’ body, that’s a pretty good player 

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14 hours ago, The_Man said:

People say Vick and/or Cunningham all the time. But it’s not really that close. Both of them had much stronger arms (if you’ve seen Lamar throw the deep out, it’s not pretty and from the far hash it’s actually bad) but less accuracy, especially Vick  

I’ve also been saying Sayers as a runner. And then I’ve been trying to think who’s the comp as a passer. The closest I’ve come up with is Chad Pennington. So if you put Chad Pennington into Gale Sayers’ body, that’s a pretty good player 

It's a good comp IMO. Chad before he destroyed his shoulder was a solid player. 

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14 hours ago, The_Man said:

People say Vick and/or Cunningham all the time. But it’s not really that close. Both of them had much stronger arms (if you’ve seen Lamar throw the deep out, it’s not pretty and from the far hash it’s actually bad) but less accuracy, especially Vick  

I’ve also been saying Sayers as a runner. And then I’ve been trying to think who’s the comp as a passer. The closest I’ve come up with is Chad Pennington. So if you put Chad Pennington into Gale Sayers’ body, that’s a pretty good player 

I remain convinced that Buddy Ryan kept Cunningham from being a HOFer. That guy had every tool, just horrible coaching.

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2 hours ago, Uruk-Hai said:

I remain convinced that Buddy Ryan kept Cunningham from being a HOFer. That guy had every tool, just horrible coaching.

This is another reason that Lamar is in a great situation.  The coaching staff actually tailored their entire offense to his strengths and drafted to his strengths as well.  Without this there is a good chance Lamar would be an exciting but misused asset. 

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11 hours ago, Gally said:

This is another reason that Lamar is in a great situation.  The coaching staff actually tailored their entire offense to his strengths and drafted to his strengths as well.  Without this there is a good chance Lamar would be an exciting but misused asset. 

That's called good coaching, which is increasingly rare.

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On 11/26/2019 at 2:32 PM, The_Man said:

I can see that. Just for me, QBs throwing passes has never been true appointment viewing. The reason Lamar is so exciting to me is the feeling you might see something you've never seen before - and that's not a feeling I generally get from passers, though Mahomes last year came close as did Favre in his prime. 

The guys that come to my mind are Deion returning punts, Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson, and sometimes Lawrence Taylor - guys in the field of play using their power and elusiveness to do something spectacular. 

Barry was in a class by himself on this.  But more recently there was a run where any game JJ Watt was in had the potential to be special.

The Greatest Show on Turf was a thing of beauty as well.

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On 11/25/2019 at 10:05 PM, tangfoot said:

I’ve already been hearing scuttlebutt that the Ravens are willing to make him a very highly compensated OC rather than losing him. 

Yea they might wanna pump the brakes on that... Kaepernick looked like a world-beater in his first season starting or so but it only got worse from there. 

Teams eventually adjusted to Kaepernick by taking away throws to the middle of the field and making him make accurate throws to the sidelines. That's exactly what I'd try w/ Jackson, leave my corners on islands and play high-low w/ the safeties. Roman's RPOs always seem to have the primary reads in the middle of the field to make the run read for the QB much easier.

And I dunno if this is still legal, but why don't DCs just tell the isolated end to just ignore the RB everytime on a RPO and just tackle the QB?

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3 hours ago, chinawildman said:

Yea they might wanna pump the brakes on that... Kaepernick looked like a world-beater in his first season starting or so but it only got worse from there. 

Teams eventually adjusted to Kaepernick by taking away throws to the middle of the field and making him make accurate throws to the sidelines. That's exactly what I'd try w/ Jackson, leave my corners on islands and play high-low w/ the safeties. Roman's RPOs always seem to have the primary reads in the middle of the field to make the run read for the QB much easier.

And I dunno if this is still legal, but why don't DCs just tell the isolated end to just ignore the RB everytime on a RPO and just tackle the QB?

Because then the RB gains big yards every time?

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2 hours ago, James Daulton said:

Because then the RB gains big yards every time?

For real.

I can remember folks espousing the "just hit the QB every time" against Nebraska and Oklahoma back in the day. Meanwhile those teams ran for 600 yards and almost never passed the ball. Some fools still try it against Navy, who doesn't have elite athletes and almost never passes the ball. 

That's college, though.....

The Ravens DO pass the ball. So, not only can the RB break big gains, but it also opens up the middle for passing to open guys. And, here's the key so far for Baltimore - Lamar Jackson is faster than every defender on the field. You miss the hit on him, he's off to the races.

Eric Weddle, considered one the the smartest DBs in the league for as long as he's played, said after Monday's game (paraphrasing) "I didn't know who had the ball half the time"

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1 minute ago, Uruk-Hai said:

For real.

I can remember folks espousing the "just hit the QB every time" against Nebraska and Oklahoma back in the day. Meanwhile those teams ran for 600 yards and almost never passed the ball. Some fools still try it against Navy, who doesn't have elite athletes and almost never passes the ball. 

That's college, though.....

The Ravens DO pass the ball. So, not only can the RB break big gains, but it also opens up the middle for passing to open guys. And, here's the key so far for Baltimore - Lamar Jackson is faster than every defender on the field. You miss the hit on him, he's off to the races.

Eric Weddle, considered one the the smartest DBs in the league for as long as he's played, said after Monday's game (paraphrasing) "I didn't know who had the ball half the time"

And if you spy LJ you're already removing a guy from coverage so now you crash the DE into him?  As you said, the middle would be wide open and LJ can actually throw the ball real good. 

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4 minutes ago, James Daulton said:

And if you spy LJ you're already removing a guy from coverage so now you crash the DE into him?  As you said, the middle would be wide open and LJ can actually throw the ball real good. 

As others have pointed out, he's not good throwing across the field. I'd keep everyone in the middle, hope my front 4 can collapse the pocket, and that my CBs can stick with the Ravens receivers out there.

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