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Tentative rookie RB/WR tiers after diving into clips and stats this weekend:   RB Josh Jacobs, Raiders - No major weaknesses and walks into a starting role. Power, hands, elusiveness, and e

That is interesting. As a Gordon owner here and there, I think I'd have jumped on that offer in any league I have him, without even looking at my own roster or that of the owner sending me the pick.

Wow I think people really need to go back and look at the last 10 years of 1st/2nd round NFL WR picks.  These guys hit at what, a 20% rate?  15%?  It's a miserable number.  I'd be pretty surprised if

1 hour ago, Yambag said:

What is everyone's thought on Antonio Brown given the latest news? 

I own him in 1 dynasty league, in win now mode.  Keep or trade? 

If trading, what would you want in return?

Definitely hold at this point.  He will have something to prove next year and if he is on the right team I don't see a drop in production necessarily.  Right now anyone offering trades are going to try and lowball you hoping you will move him in a panic situation and take a lot less than full value. 

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2 hours ago, jeaton6 said:

Kelce value in picks? I was offered him for OJ, 1.6, 2.12, 2019 3.  Seemed steep to me for an almost 30 yo TE.

TE in a Bruce Arians offense is an afterthought and OJ Howard hasn't exactly shown much in the NFL.  I think Kelce is #1, 2 or 3 in the dynasty TE rankings depending on your preference and is in line to score in that range for the next 3-5 years.
There's no greater positional advantage than a TE that scores like a WR, and this offer doesn't come close to Kelce's FF value to me.

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12 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

TE in a Bruce Arians offense is an afterthought and OJ Howard hasn't exactly shown much in the NFL.  I think Kelce is #1, 2 or 3 in the dynasty TE rankings depending on your preference and is in line to score in that range for the next 3-5 years.
There's no greater positional advantage than a TE that scores like a WR, and this offer doesn't come close to Kelce's FF value to me.

Wait, what? OJ has been awesome when targeted. Granted, he hasn't been targeted enough, but on 87 targets he's got 60/997/11.

As for the Bruce Arians thing, it was discussed somewhere in here at the time of Arians signing on with TB... maybe in the OJ Howard thread. But someone mentioned Heath Miller doing better with Haley than Arians, but after looking at the data closely, Heath was actually a bigger % of the offense under Arians, the difference was just that PIT ranked very highly on defense and didn't need to throw the ball much while Arians was there.

It seems Arians doesn't prioritize bringing in tight ends, but he did appreciate Heath and spoke highly of him. What he really likes is a dual threat TE, so I suspect he'll find a way to utilize OJ.

Personally, I would not accept the trade offered above. OJ is too valuable and Kelce is too old for that kind of price.

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13 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Wait, what? OJ has been awesome when targeted. Granted, he hasn't been targeted enough, but on 87 targets he's got 60/997/11.

As for the Bruce Arians thing, it was discussed somewhere in here at the time of Arians signing on with TB... maybe in the OJ Howard thread. But someone mentioned Heath Miller doing better with Haley than Arians, but after looking at the data closely, Heath was actually a bigger % of the offense under Arians, the difference was just that PIT ranked very highly on defense and didn't need to throw the ball much while Arians was there.

It seems Arians doesn't prioritize bringing in tight ends, but he did appreciate Heath and spoke highly of him. What he really likes is a dual threat TE, so I suspect he'll find a way to utilize OJ.

Personally, I would not accept the trade offered above. OJ is too valuable and Kelce is too old for that kind of price.

Mizelle February ADP shows Kelce at #24 overall (TE1) and Howard at #67 overall (TE4).  Combining those positions with the values listed at dynastyfftools.com, the #24 player is worth 5014 points and #67 is worth 1321 points.  The difference between the two is 3693, which is about ADP 33.5 (Michel/Fournette).  Those draft picks don't come anywhere close to bridging that gap, especially in what is considered to be a very down year for rookies. 

And when I said Howard hasn't done much, I'll spell it out for you.  He has 165 fantasy points in the past two seasons, which is only 5 more than his teammate, Brate.  In comparison, Kelce has outscored the two of them combined in that time span, and should continue to do so.

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3 hours ago, jeaton6 said:

Kelce value in picks? I was offered him for OJ, 1.6, 2.12, 2019 3.  Seemed steep to me for an almost 30 yo TE.

I couldn’t trade Kelce for Howard straight up. He’s years younger, and looked elite last year. Don’t be scared by Arians, good coaches adapt to the talent.

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15 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

Anybody seen any Thielen trades? Tried moving him for Moore or Boyd in 3 leagues with a pick on their sides and no interest at all.

Depending on how high of a pick you were asking for, those both sound very reasonable.  His ADP is just outside of WR1 range.

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1 minute ago, tangfoot said:

Depending on how high of a pick you were asking for, those both sound very reasonable.  His ADP is just outside of WR1 range.

Well I wanted a mid first and Boyd. For Moore, I was only looking at a second. Looks like Jeffery, ranked much higher by the experts for years than his trade value. Feels like his trade value is more of a bottom wr2. But I was wondering if it’s just those owners and I should keep shopping.

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1 minute ago, voiceofunreason said:

Well I wanted a mid first and Boyd. For Moore, I was only looking at a second. Looks like Jeffery, ranked much higher by the experts for years than his trade value. Feels like his trade value is more of a bottom wr2. But I was wondering if it’s just those owners and I should keep shopping.

I would accept that in both cases to get Thielen.

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1 minute ago, voiceofunreason said:

Well I wanted a mid first and Boyd. For Moore, I was only looking at a second. Looks like Jeffery, ranked much higher by the experts for years than his trade value. Feels like his trade value is more of a bottom wr2. But I was wondering if it’s just those owners and I should keep shopping.

I think many people don't believe in Thielen so his trade value is lower than what it should be.  He seems like a hold to me because you can't get the value he actually gives you in the lineup. 

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3 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

Depending on how high of a pick you were asking for, those both sound very reasonable.  His ADP is just outside of WR1 range.

I am a big fan of DJ Moore so I would be reluctant to add a high pick for Thielen but I could see a mid-high 2nd

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1 hour ago, tangfoot said:

Mizelle February ADP shows Kelce at #24 overall (TE1) and Howard at #67 overall (TE4).  Combining those positions with the values listed at dynastyfftools.com, the #24 player is worth 5014 points and #67 is worth 1321 points.  The difference between the two is 3693, which is about ADP 33.5 (Michel/Fournette).  Those draft picks don't come anywhere close to bridging that gap, especially in what is considered to be a very down year for rookies. 

Consensus value =/= real value, or else we'd all just bring an ADP to startup drafts as our cheatsheet. There are plenty of trades that might look justified using ADP that just aren't good trades, IMO. There have been plenty of trades that passed the consensus eye test that ended up being awful within a year. So I'm more than happy to disagree with the consensus from time to time. My statement was never "that trade offer is bad compared to consensus values." It was merely my opinion.

1 hour ago, tangfoot said:

And when I said Howard hasn't done much, I'll spell it out for you.  He has 165 fantasy points in the past two seasons, which is only 5 more than his teammate, Brate.  In comparison, Kelce has outscored the two of them combined in that time span, and should continue to do so.

And I'll spell out what you are missing: Howard is averaging 16.6 ypr, leads all tight ends over the past two years in 1st downs per targets and touchdowns per target. As they say, you don't get points for last year's fantasy stats so I don't really care how many fantasy points each had in the past - I care about their potential in the years to come. Over the past two years, Howard is averaging 2.62 points per target while Kelce is averaging a solid 1.95 ppt. Kelce is 5 years older than Howard and will likely have a shorted career due to the micro-fracture surgery on his knee.

Howard has the potential to pace Kelce over the next 2 years, but even if he doesn't, I'll take the extra 5+ years of his likely excellent career over a couple ppg in the short term.

Fun fact:
Kelce 2 years after being drafted: 87 targets, 183.2 ppr points. (16g)
OJ Howard 2 years after being drafted: 87 targets, 225.7 ppr points. (24g) 

I take it you are conceding the Arians TE myth?

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7 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

I take it you are conceding the Arians TE myth?

You think that Heath Miller was good?  Is that the evidence that you're using to burst this "myth"?
I saw Bruce as a head coach in Arizona, TEs were not prioritized.  The TEs in Tampa are significantly more talented than what Arizona had, but I'll believe it when I see it.  I'm not expecting TE production in TB to be very different than it was last year, where it was both a time share and mediocre for both players (from a Fantasy Football perspective).

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2 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

You think that Heath Miller was good?  Is that the evidence that you're using to burst this "myth"?
I saw Bruce as a head coach in Arizona, TEs were not prioritized.  The TEs in Tampa are significantly more talented than what Arizona had, but I'll believe it when I see it.  I'm not expecting TE production in TB to be very different than it was last year, where it was both a time share and mediocre for both players (from a Fantasy Football perspective).

Yes, I do think Heath Miller was good. But at a minimum he was serviceable and he played a large role in that offense - the only problem was that the offense didn't pass much. When they did pass, Arians utilized the TE, contrary to popular belief. 

You're not wrong that Arians had very little TE help in Arizona and didn't bother to prioritize getting TE talent. But he did have a very productive trio of WRs in Fitzgerald, Brown, and Floyd so I can understand why a receiving TE would not be a priority there. I hardly see this as a death knell for future TEs in Arians' system. 

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1 minute ago, FF Ninja said:

Yes, I do think Heath Miller was good. But at a minimum he was serviceable and he played a large role in that offense - the only problem was that the offense didn't pass much. When they did pass, Arians utilized the TE, contrary to popular belief. 

You're not wrong that Arians had very little TE help in Arizona and didn't bother to prioritize getting TE talent. But he did have a very productive trio of WRs in Fitzgerald, Brown, and Floyd so I can understand why a receiving TE would not be a priority there. I hardly see this as a death knell for future TEs in Arians' system. 

I can get behind this, but where are you on Brate considering the pretty hefty contract extension (both in money and years) they gave him?  I see this as a two-headed monster for 2-3 years, and it's not like Tampa Bay's receivers are trash.  Those guys are clearly going to be the primary targets. 
I will admit that BA will use whatever talent he has to get an advantage, and it's certainly possible that OJ becomes something like the #2 target priority that he will have to be in order to justify the price you think he's worth. 

In my experience, TEs don't hit their stride until they've been in the league for 4-5 years, and most of the time it's when they move on to their 2nd team.  I can't get behind the logic that Howard is going to start producing enough to justify his current value in the short term.  I'd rather wait it out because it's far more likely that his value will drop over the next two years.

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1 minute ago, tangfoot said:

I can get behind this, but where are you on Brate considering the pretty hefty contract extension (both in money and years) they gave him?  I see this as a two-headed monster for 2-3 years, and it's not like Tampa Bay's receivers are trash.  Those guys are clearly going to be the primary targets. 
I will admit that BA will use whatever talent he has to get an advantage, and it's certainly possible that OJ becomes something like the #2 target priority that he will have to be in order to justify the price you think he's worth. 

In my experience, TEs don't hit their stride until they've been in the league for 4-5 years, and most of the time it's when they move on to their 2nd team.  I can't get behind the logic that Howard is going to start producing enough to justify his current value in the short term.  I'd rather wait it out because it's far more likely that his value will drop over the next two years.

Brate's contract is very odd. It's actually very team friendly. They could cut him now without any cap hit, IIRC. It was basically a bunch of $7M seasons strung together.

Arians has voice his opinion about liking TEs that can block and receive, so I will kind of be surprised if Brate isn't cut this year.

Howard hit the ground running and has been producing at an elite level on a per target basis. All he needs is for someone to see this and utilize him some more. His rate is so high that he could take a significant hit (as is often the case when volume increases) and still be elite. It would not take much for him to vault into the top 5 at his position in 2019 and hang onto that for ~8 years. 

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2 hours ago, tangfoot said:

Depending on how high of a pick you were asking for, those both sound very reasonable.  His ADP is just outside of WR1 range.

yes I'm experiencing similar hate for Thielen. I guess he is a hold right now, he doesn't turn 29 until late August and with his late start seems like he has minimum another 3 years left of high production. I can't figure out why teams that will compete in 2019 aren't more interested. Best offer I got was Corey Davis for him and feels like he should be worth more

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9 hours ago, voiceofunreason said:

Anybody seen any Thielen trades? Tried moving him for Moore or Boyd in 3 leagues with a pick on their sides and no interest at all.

Some recents...(12 team, 1QB, PPR)

* Thielen/4th for Corey Davis/2nd

* AB for Thielen/Hamilton/2n/3rd/3rd

* Drake/Godwin for Thielen

* Thielen for Mack

 

 

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16 hours ago, jeaton6 said:

Kelce value in picks? I was offered him for OJ, 1.6, 2.12, 2019 3.  Seemed steep to me for an almost 30 yo TE.

I'm an OJ believer. Part of the reason is that Winston likes throwing to his TEs. Arians and the WR talent scare me a little on the target share issue. I do like Howard though. But I would want a proven stud commodity in return for Kelce. Doesn't have to be a TE necessarily but the risk of Howard plus a mid 1st doesn't come even remotely close to getting me started in negotiations on a player I would not be looking to move in the first place. If you want to move from Kelce because of his age, I would want a *lot* more. Plus he has Mahomes throwing him the ball in an offense that *clearly* values and targets him. 

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5 hours ago, Mr. Peterson said:

Anyone seeing any dynasty trade offers for Baker Mayfield?  I’m not even sure what kind of offer to start with?   

Trade just went down in one of my leagues: 

Deshaun Watson for Mayfield and D’onta Foreman

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11 hours ago, jeter23 said:

Some recents...(12 team, 1QB, PPR)

* Thielen/4th for Corey Davis/2nd

* AB for Thielen/Hamilton/2n/3rd/3rd

* Drake/Godwin for Thielen

* Thielen for Mack

 

 

Yuck on most of those. Looks like people should be sending out offers for Thielen.

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10 hours ago, Edgar said:

Depending on how the draft shakes out, Thielen for Mack is reasonable. 

I'd disagree. I like Mack but he's the type of back that will always be looking over his shoulder for the team to upgrade him. Although if the Colts don't bring some one in you do get another season of RB2 stats.

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22 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Mayfield threw one more TD than Watson THIS year with 2.5 fewer games played. :confused:

rushing stats count in most fantasy leagues as well.

For the record I'd tale the Watson side as well but don't see it as outrageous as I can see some one being scared that Watson is always in danger of missing games.

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

rushing stats count in most fantasy leagues as well.

For the record I'd tale the Watson side as well but don't see it as outrageous as I can see some one being scared that Watson is always in danger of missing games.

Yeah, that's true. But I'd probably count that as a negative too. Watson ran a lot because his line was so bad and if he continues running that much, like you said, the chances of injury are almost guaranteed.

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13 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I'd disagree. I like Mack but he's the type of back that will always be looking over his shoulder for the team to upgrade him. Although if the Colts don't bring some one in you do get another season of RB2 stats.

If Mack is able to play a full season and running behind that OL Mack will be a RB1.

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2 minutes ago, smbkrypt24 said:

If Mack is able to play a full season and running behind that OL Mack will be a RB1.

It's possible, but I would go into the season having 12 RBs ranked ahead of him for redraft. There's no shame in being a RB2 (and will admit he'd have RB1 upside).

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7 minutes ago, smbkrypt24 said:

If Mack is able to play a full season and running behind that OL Mack will be a RB1.

Mack has almost as many "ifs" as Damien Williams. There are scenarios where both of them could be an RB1... I just wouldn't bet on them.

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10 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Mack has almost as many "ifs" as Damien Williams. There are scenarios where both of them could be an RB1... I just wouldn't bet on them.

I could see ranking some ahead of Mack like Dr. Octopus said, but comparing him to Damien Williams is way off base.  I am not sure if you didn't watch him play or if you seriously think that is a good comparison.

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1 minute ago, smbkrypt24 said:

I could see ranking some ahead of Mack like Dr. Octopus said, but comparing him to Damien Williams is way off base.  I am not sure if you didn't watch him play or if you seriously think that is a good comparison.

I'm not saying they are a player-to-player comp, but more of a situational comp. I'm saying they both require a lot of "ifs" to get to that RB1 scenario. At a minimum both guys will need to survive free agency and the draft which isn't a given. 

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1 hour ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Mayfield threw one more TD than Watson THIS year with 2.5 fewer games played. :confused:

So he is better than Watson? Im not a Baker hater necessarily, but I think most would agree that if given the choice between the two, they would take watson.

Watson for Baker + isn't a bad deal, I just dont think Foreman, who is a dart throw at best right now, doesnt make up the difference for me. Would rather have a random 2nd or equivalent

41 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Yeah, that's true. But I'd probably count that as a negative too. Watson ran a lot because his line was so bad and if he continues running that much, like you said, the chances of injury are almost guaranteed.

By this logic Baker is destined to get hurt too because he is small, so its a wash

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