msommer
Footballguy
Swell people ren supports
Swell people ren supports
Can you please stop with these disingenuous attacks? I don't paint you as a Trump/Bolton supporter.Swell people ren supports
When you get your human hat on and realize Maduro has to go (preferably peacefully)Can you please stop with these disingenuous attacks? I don't paint you as a Trump/Bolton supporter.
Hahaha so funny people are starving and dying.
There are examples in Latin America of how to prosper and reduce poverty, such as the paths taken by Peru and Chile. And a semi-socialist country, such as Bolivia where only 20 companies have been expropriated by the state (compared to hundreds in Venezuela) and most private companies share their wealth with the state but aren't controlled by it. Bolivia's economy has also done well. I've seen many examples of successful entreneurship among Peruvians and Bolivians in their countries. So, Chavez and Maduro choose the failed Cuban economic model?This is why Donald Trump and everyone else in the USA is not important in this crisis: Venezuelan GDP has decreased 63% since 2016. Combine that with hyperinflation, and you have a ruined economy and a humanitarian crisis where there is not enough food or medicine in the country. This is 2x as bad as the Great Depression in the USA, and 3.5x as bad as the Weimar Republic in the interwar period.
https://twitter.com/fmonaldi/status/1092777678934065155?s=08
Essentially, yes. There have been numerous political and economic advisors from Cuba that came to Venezuela during chavismo. Venezuela traded oil for political advisors and doctors. It wasn't a smart move.So, Chavez and Maduro choose the failed Cuban economic model?
Here’s more on Robert Lovato, complete with links to his own bylines in FP, Guardian, Boston Globe etc:So, in the Venezuela thread we get a post about El Salvador?
And from the well known and surely not biased source of "latinorebels" whose logo is a red five pointed star.....
You are supporting a regime that murders and starves their own citizens.Here’s more on Robert Lovato, complete with links to his own bylines in FP, Guardian, Boston Globe etc:
http://www.robertolovato.com/about.html
I know you’re trolling again, but part of understanding policy is understanding the people that will implement it. Sometimes that means talking about the things they did before. Basic history 101.
So when Trump hires a deathsquad backing neocon who lied to Congress about it as envoy to Venezuela, it tells us a lot about what’s going to happen in Venezuela. It’s amazing that Trump/Bolton are being given the benefit of the doubt here.
And conducts sham elections that thwart democracy and preserve power for authoritarians.You are supporting a regime that murders and starves their own citizens.
At least you are consistent, I suppose
well, to be fair ren has never minded elections that were interfered with (at least not from a certain cadre....)And conducts sham elections that thwart democracy and preserve power for authoritarians.
I honestly don't understand his political philosophy. Anarcho-authoritarianism?well, to be fair ren has never minded elections that were interfered with (at least not from a certain cadre....)
anarcho-bot?I honestly don't understand his political philosophy. Anarcho-authoritarianism?
Really? What election did Guaido win?And conducts sham elections that thwart democracy and preserve power for authoritarians.
That would be you and msommer, the real Trump supportersI honestly don't understand his political philosophy. Anarcho-authoritarianism?
Pretty sure the 2015 parliamentary elections, which were held according to the constitution.Really? What election did Guaido win?
Ouch. That ought to sting a littlePretty sure the 2015 parliamentary elections, which were held according to the constitution.
It really is odd how the situation in Venezuela has become another alt-right/russian meme.And conducts sham elections that thwart democracy and preserve power for authoritarians.You are supporting a regime that murders and starves their own citizens.
At least you are consistent, I suppose
Crude oil pricing basically being cut in half in 2015 really caused this house of cards to collapseThe Z Machine said:Essentially, yes. There have been numerous political and economic advisors from Cuba that came to Venezuela during chavismo. Venezuela traded oil for political advisors and doctors. It wasn't a smart move.
25 years ago, Venezuela produced much more of its own goods, especially in agriculture. Massive expropriation by the state sharply increased imports, paid for by oil money. As crude oil prices spiked, this allowed for ever increasing spending on poorly designed social programs and subsidizing food and gasoline. The distortions in the economy grew over time and eventually reduced the efficiency of the market. This, coupled with a highly corrupt government that was extracting wealth from small / medium sized enterprises made it a terrible place to do business. Direct foreign investment dried up at the government proved to be an unreliable partner. Then as crude oil prices dropped, the spending could not be sustained, and imports couldn't be paid for any longer.
Bolivia, Chile, Ecuador this was not.
Because opposing that and supporting Maduro are absolutely two different things
Narrator: ren still seemingly in Maduro's cornerWhen you get your human hat on and realize Maduro has to go (preferably peacefully)
Supporting Guaido and the Assembly, vs opposing military intervention, are two different things too.Because opposing that and supporting Maduro are absolutely two different things, no matter how many times msommer pretends it isn’t.
Nor do I (off hand i cant think of a US military intervention that I have supported in the past other than Kuwait and Yugoslavia)For the record, I do not support a US military intervention in Venezuela right now.
We should have intervened in Rwanda, but failed to, IMO.Nor do I (off hand i cant think of a US military intervention that I have supported in the past other than Kuwait and Yugoslavia)
I agree on Rwanda (but like Yugoslavia and Kuwait it really needed to be a multinational effort).Sand said:We should have intervened in Rwanda, but failed to, IMO.
In this case Venezuela is already a failed state. The damage has essentially already been done. We should help pick up the pieces (civil assistance to the populace), but I don't see a military intervention helping matters.
I don’t think I will ever support it, but I suspect at some point the majority of Venezuela will.For the record, I do not support a US military intervention in Venezuela right now.
You all should watch that video. That is why my FIL is returning. To try and make a difference, whatever it takes to save just a few more lives. He'd rather do that than live out his days in comfort.msommer said:Venezuelas health system in a state of collapse
Swell guy this Maduro, he should be allowed to stay on.....
Watched the video. Hope your family is safe out there.You all should watch that video. That is why my FIL is returning. To try and make a difference, whatever it takes to save just a few more lives. He'd rather do that than live out his days in comfort.
So @ren hoek, that's why I don't support the Maduro regime. This is a nightmare of Chávez and Maduro's making, and the latter and his cronies need to go in order to right the ship.
Why do you say that? At least concede there’s a Constitutional issue that people can argue about. I don’t think it’s close but I get the argument Maduro is ‘in office’.By any objective metric, Maduro is the legitimate leader of that country.
The last election was rigged, and the vote count dubious at best. That's not the definition of legitimate.By any objective metric, Maduro is the legitimate leader of that country. The Chavistas exist, they elected him, they are not going away.
ren hoek said:“The same US media outlets that have fundraised & run ad campaigns on their image as anti-Trump truth-tellers have mysteriously taken at face value everything the Trump WH & its neocon allies have said in their campaign to overthrow the gov. of Venezuela.”
https://fair.org/home/western-media-fall-in-lockstep-for-cheap-trump-rubio-venezuela-aid-pr-stunt/
There were other reports of other points of entry being cut off and Maduro forces hauling people out of trucks and searching them. I guess this confirms that.It’s true the Venezuelan government appears to have placed an oil tanker and cargo containers on the bridge to prevent incursion from the Colombian side, but the other barriers, as writer and software developer Jason Emery noted, have been in place since at least 2016. According to La Opinion (2/5/16), after its initial construction in 2015, the bridge has never been open to traffic. How can Maduro, as the BBC suggested, “reopen” a bridge that was never open?
Except the Red Cross and UN have been providing actual humanitarian aid for years. It's not that they are refusing help or 'isolating' from their neighbors, its that they are understandably guarded about the 'humanitarian aid' pr stunts. It was Colombia that Bolton had scribbled something about on his notepad involving '5,000 troops'.There were other reports of other points of entry being cut off and Maduro forces hauling people out of trucks and searching them. I guess this confirms that.
And I'm not sure I understand why saying that Maduro has been blocking points of entry since 2016 and has refused to open a bridge available since 2015 is supposed to help. This is a reason for partly understanding the anger at the government, the man is isolating his nation from its neighbors.
Ok you're talking about the US convoys here but apparently VZ has been blocking its borders since 2016. Bolton wasn't around until 2018 and Abrams not until 2019, though you and I probably share some views on both of them.Except the Red Cross and UN have been providing actual humanitarian aid for years. It's not that they are refusing help or 'isolating' from their neighbors, its that they are understandably guarded about the 'humanitarian aid' pr stunts. It was Colombia that Bolton had scribbled something about on his notepad involving '5,000 troops'.
Agreed, but the coup attempts and US meddling date back to at least 2002. If you care to consider a purely socialist take on this, Mike Prysner's dismantling of John Oliver's propaganda piece on Venezuela gives some much needed context on why they're not taking western aid in good faith.Ok you're talking about the US convoys here but apparently VZ has been blocking its borders since 2016. Bolton wasn't around until 2018 and Abrams not until 2019, though you and I probably share some views on both of them.
I did read the piece, I think it's a good point about Red Cross, but VZ is in historic suffering right now. Red Cross can't cover it, they're only providing aid to six hospitals. 'Dysfunctional' doesn't cover this but supporters of the VZ people need to think about what it would take to get things to normal. If a president has reduced the value of all money, won't allow private enterprise he doesn't control and get a slice of, and won't allow in humanitarian aid because he thinks there may be smuggled arms to overthrow him then, well, maybe he shouldn't be president. That is an impossible situation.
The Venezuelans did that. They had an election in 2015. Maduro responded by creating an illegal electoral commission, an illegal court, and an illegal assembly. Then he blocked off the country. What would you prose they do now to protect the last freely elected officials currently in power, the Assembly of 2015?Agreed, but the coup attempts and US meddling date back to at least 2002. If you care to consider a purely socialist take on this, Mike Prysner's dismantling of John Oliver's propaganda piece on Venezuela gives some much needed context on why they're not taking western aid in good faith.
If the west wants to help Venezuelans, they need to end the sanctions regime, quit picking sides and let actual Venezuelans decide their own destiny. The Bank of England withheld $1.2 billion in gold assets from the Socialist Party that is rightfully theirs- this exacerbates their financial problems and ultimately worsens conditions for Venezuelans, by design. It's just plainly disingenuous to portray this as happening in a vacuum of Maduro's own creation.
Right. Prysner addressed this here. The constituent assembly was created legally based on the Constitution that had been ratified in 1999. Anyone and everyone was welcome to run in the constituent process. It was created as an effort to abridge peace between opposing demographics- streets were being set ablaze, death and destruction was happening- the opposition parties boycotted the process altogether.The Venezuelans did that. They had an election in 2015. Maduro responded by creating an illegal electoral commission, an illegal court, and an illegal assembly. Then he blocked off the country. What would you prose they do now to protect the last freely elected officials currently in power, the Assembly of 2015?