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Venezuela -- Socialism Destroyed It (3 Viewers)

Slapdash said:
Also, sorry to Americanize this.

There are very real issues going on in Venezuela and I do not know what will lead to the best outcome.  I hope your wife's family are as safe as they can be. 
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The two immediate family members that remain there (sister 1 and father) aren't currently in the country.  My father in law just recently got a residency card for Panama (where sister 2 lives). Not sure if he's taking a longish break from Venezuela or if this is more permanent. Father in law's wife (wife 3) is currently in Mexico visiting her daughter (not related to my wife).  Wife 3 is a Mexican citizen but lived in Venezuela for 40 years. 

Sister 1 is in Barcelona visiting her son. She has an EU passport through her mom (wife 1) and has begun working on an assembly line or other low wage job just to get some money. This despite being a computer engineer with 30 years experience.  But she's over 50 and doesn't have any connections other than her son, nor a degree recognized in Europe.  Not sure if she will return to Venezuela in the dinner or not.  Her husband (husband 2) is visiting his daughter in Canada, although he only has Venezuelan citizenship.

So, the family (particularly the second/third marriages) and those related are getting more and more disperses and strained. I guess it's better to be safe, have enough food to eat, and have access to medical care while being hear your children than to suffer and continue to roll the dice on a country rapidly approaching failed state status with a non functioning economy.

Sad to have to leave your country when you're retired and your savings have evaporated.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I’ve heard that Venezuela had the highest income in CA/SA/Carib once.
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wasn't when I was there - there was commerce and business some, but 1/2 the mall stores were vacant, the streets were filled with people doing nothing .....

inflation was going crazy then, it was like $1 US dollar to $200 Bolivars when I got there, and by the time I left it was more like $1 to $350 I cannot imagine how it fell from there .... I literally went to a bank one day and carried a grocery sack of money out.

everyone was a schyster ... the guards at our hotel stole our rental car spare tire, so I had to bribe the police to write a report for it .... one night we were held at gun point by the police in a barrio we were working and again, only by emptying our pockets did we find a resolution. It was always like that. Didn't help I was American.

beautiful people and country, socialism and that Govt has all but killed it now I think

 
The Z Machine said:
The two immediate family members that remain there (sister 1 and father) aren't currently in the country.  My father in law just recently got a residency card for Panama (where sister 2 lives). Not sure if he's taking a longish break from Venezuela or if this is more permanent. Father in law's wife (wife 3) is currently in Mexico visiting her daughter (not related to my wife).  Wife 3 is a Mexican citizen but lived in Venezuela for 40 years. 

Sister 1 is in Barcelona visiting her son. She has an EU passport through her mom (wife 1) and has begun working on an assembly line or other low wage job just to get some money. This despite being a computer engineer with 30 years experience.  But she's over 50 and doesn't have any connections other than her son, nor a degree recognized in Europe.  Not sure if she will return to Venezuela in the dinner or not.  Her husband (husband 2) is visiting his daughter in Canada, although he only has Venezuelan citizenship.

So, the family (particularly the second/third marriages) and those related are getting more and more disperses and strained. I guess it's better to be safe, have enough food to eat, and have access to medical care while being hear your children than to suffer and continue to roll the dice on a country rapidly approaching failed state status with a non functioning economy.

Sad to have to leave your country when you're retired and your savings have evaporated.
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Thanks for sharing.  I agree it is better to be safe, but there are no winners here. Nobody tries to leave their country lightly.  Very sad.  

Sucks for Sister 1 to do a job so beneath her skills, but at least it something.  The recent turn against "chain migration" is very wrong to me.  I wish she could bring her family with her.  The democracies of the world should welcome this. 

Good luck to your family and friends there. 

 
The Z Machine said:
Sad to have to leave your country when you're retired and your savings have evaporated.
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Did it evaporate due to inflation out just expenses to escape?  These days there are very few safe currencies and I'm not sure what kind off access a family over there would have to any of those.

Good luck to your family.  Hopefully it all ends up good in the end.

 
Sand said:
When you socialize the oil industry by replacing 5000 technical people with 100,000 party loyalists this is what you get.  So sad and unnecessary what's been done to this country.  Writing has been on the wall for a decade.
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More like two - from the moment Chavez was elected

 
USA sending Red Cross hospital ships to aid..Russia sends 2 bombers to show support.

 Manning cited the humanitarian assistance provided in Central and South American by a U.S. Navy hospital ship, the USNS Comfort, in the past eight weeks. Numerous Venezuelan migrants were among the people who received medical and dental treatment.

"Contrast this with Russia, whose approach to the man-made disaster in Venezuela is to send bomber aircraft instead of humanitarian assistance.

 
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The amount of ruin and destruction Maduro has willfully brought down on this country is staggering.  It’s unconscionable.

 
Bucky86 said:
Putting on my :tinfoilhat:

Is there any chance Trump uses this as his Reichstag? If we don't evacuate the embassy, because we don't recognize Maduro as president, and the military remains behind Maduro. What if there is a confrontation? Then what if Trump claims Venezuelan terrorists are a part of the migrant caravan to attack us? :tinfoilhat:
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It's pretty far to Venezuela. He might use it as his Grenada. BUt I doubt it - it would be a huge operation to do, and worst case (for Trump) what if they fold like an accordion - then he's left holding the bag actually running Venezuela too....

 
Venezuela Inflation, 2018: 12,615%

GDP growth, 2016: -17%

GDP growth, 2017: -15%

GDP growth, 2018: -16%

Economy since 2011: Shrunk by 70%

Share of population living in poverty: 87%

Average weight lost per person in 2016: 8 kg

Average weight lost per person in 2017: 11 kg
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Worst performing currencies against US Dollar over past year.

Venezuela: -2,500,000%

Argentina: -90%
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Link.

 
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timschochet said:
It seems like President Trump is doing the right thing here. Anyone disagree? 
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The US has definitely been a good faith actor in Latin America.  They want to restore democracy because they care about Venezuelans.  Can’t imagine what else would draw them in to help this oil-rich nation.  

 
ren hoek said:
The US has definitely been a good faith actor in Latin America.  They want to restore democracy because they care about Venezuelans.  Can’t imagine what else would draw them in to help this oil-rich nation.  
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I appreciate the sarcasm, and don't disagree with it. But you failed to answer the question: right now, is President Trump doing the right thing?

 
timschochet said:
I appreciate the sarcasm, and don't disagree with it. But you failed to answer the question: right now, is President Trump doing the right thing?
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No, I don't think he is.  It's a coup.  It's to farm out Venezuela to all our transnational corporations.  Even if it was our place to declare who the Venezuelan ruler is, even if Maduro sucks, I don't think it's our place to meddle in their affairs.  

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Nations still recognizing Maduro:

- Bolivia - China - Cuba - Iran - Mexico - Russia - Turkey - Syrian regime - Uruguay

***

- It's a little odd to see Mexico in that group.
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A really good twitter account to follow is @StratSentinel

He's got a map he's coloring in that shows countries that have expressed support for the different individuals.  I agree I was shocked to see Mexico side with Russia and China and Syria.

 
Ro Khanna‏ @RoKhanna

With respect Senator Durbin, the US should not anoint the leader of the opposition in Venezuela during an internal, polarized conflict. Let us support Uruguay, Mexico, & the Vatican's efforts for a negotiated settlement & end sanctions that are making the hyperinflation worse.

 
Everyone is bracing for the worst here. As usual in these situations, it comes down to the military.  They've expressed backing of Maduro, but the situation can't continue much longer like this. Your can't starve the population.

 
The Z Machine said:
Everyone is bracing for the worst here. As usual in these situations, it comes down to the military.  They've expressed backing of Maduro, but the situation can't continue much longer like this. Your can't starve the population.
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ren hoek said:
I'm so ####### sick of regime change
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Well, ren. You come off as a bit of a Richard here. Care to explain the basis for your continued support of Maduro, considering the balls up job he is doing?

 
shader said:
A really good twitter account to follow is @StratSentinel 

He's got a map he's coloring in that shows countries that have expressed support for the different individuals.  I agree I was shocked to see Mexico side with Russia and China and Syria.
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Good follow, thanks.

 
Does this really count as a typical "regime change", though? Isn't their legislature following Constitutional protocol?

 
Family update:

My FIL moved to Mexico (Mérida, near Cancun) about 4 months ago with his wife (Mexican by birth, lived in vzla for 40 years). He's submitted paperwork for permanent residency there.  His wife's family put them up in an unused house there and gave them use of a car. His wife's 3 children all now live in Mexico (although they are Venezuelan by birth).

My FIL got very bored with his forced retirement. Couldn't stand being taken care of like that either. He's a physician that's worked at the same hospital for 40 years, helped build their dialysis unit and do the first kidney transplants in Latin America. He's been Hospital Director before and also Chief of Medicine in the past.

The current Director (which is appointed by the government, but from all accounts isn't an imbecile and actually wants to make things work) asked my FIL to return and be Chief of Medicine again.

He stayed with us for a week right after Christmas, and is now waiting for these papers to come through before he returns to the hell that is trying to run a hospital in a country without many basic medicines and where the power can be cut at any time. 

A few other family members remain despite having the papers to leave permanently. Partly due to age and ability to sustain themselves elsewhere, and partly to participate in the street protests.

 
Bucky86 said:
:popcorn:  

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Reuters reports Russia has sent as many as 400 mercenaries from Wagner to Venezuela to defend Maduro. I believe this is known as doubling down on your investment

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-russia-exclusive/exclusive-kremlin-linked-contractors-help-guard-venezuelas-maduro-sources-idUSKCN1PJ22M
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"Don't get involved militarily, USA!  That's not cool!"

(but then we'll send our own troops, because... Russia gonna Russia)

 
ren hoek said:
https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1088640993157677057

"I love the United States" - Venezuelan President @NicolasMaduro spoke out today after the Trump administration backed non-elected opposition figure Juan Guaidó and called Maduro "illegitimate".
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I'd like to get into the weeds on this. First of all Guaido was elected, to the legislature. Now what happened after that I'm not sure but from what I recall the Assembly is actually pretty legitimate per the last free election in 2015. I'd like to know if the Assembly took steps to make him President, I just haven't seen anything on that yet.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I'd like to get into the weeds on this. First of all Guaido was elected, to the legislature. Now what happened after that I'm not sure but from what I recall the Assembly is actually pretty legitimate per the last free election in 2015. I'd like to know if the Assembly took steps to make him President, I just haven't seen anything on that yet.
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Yeah, I’m not familiar with how it works either.  The impression I get is that Maduro has support from poorer demographics, but not with upper/middle class Venezuelans. I also read that Guiado’s base boycotted the election.  But I think that’s a separate argument from whether the US should meddle in their elections.  

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
ren hoek said:
https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1088640993157677057

"I love the United States" - Venezuelan President @NicolasMaduro spoke out today after the Trump administration backed non-elected opposition figure Juan Guaidó and called Maduro "illegitimate".
Click to expand...
I'd like to get into the weeds on this. First of all Guaido was elected, to the legislature. Now what happened after that I'm not sure but from what I recall the Assembly is actually pretty legitimate per the last free election in 2015. I'd like to know if the Assembly took steps to make him President, I just haven't seen anything on that yet.
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Apparently, their National Assembly has invoked "Article 233" of their constitution, which states that the head of the Assembly can be appointed as an interim president for 30 days if the president is "unavailable" to serve.

The definition of "unavailable" is somewhat vague, but apparently includes mental disability. But it doesn't look like there is any formal mechanism for evaluating the president and officially declaring him to be "mentally disabled". Obviously Maduro says that he's fully able to serve.

Trump's decision to formally recognize Guaido based on this argument seems a bit flimsy to me, but I'd need to see other examples of the U.S. formally recognizing self-appointed leaders before I can give a more informed opinion.

 
Good news for people who wanted western powers to anoint the new Venezuelan leader yesterday.

John Hudson @John_Hudson

Mike Pompeo just named Eliot Abrams his new special envoy for Venezuela. Abrams plead guilty to withholding information from Congress about the Iran-Contra affair. Pompeo says Abrams will be in charge of “all things related to our efforts to restore Democracy in Venezuela.”

Abrams was pardoned by George W. Bush. He went on to become a major critic of Trump saying in 2016 that Republicans have “nominated someone who cannot win and should not be the president of the United States.” Notice the title of the article:

In September 2017, Abrams wrote this: "The White House said today that it is not advocating regime change in North Korea.

Why ever not?...

OF COURSE we want a different regime there.

The same goes for other countries ruled by horrendous tyrannies, such as Iran & **Venezuela**"

 
I wish I could say I was surprised that people who have been absolutely buttblasted the past 2 years over Russian memes and twitter larping to interfere in US elections are hardly batting an eye at Trump/west declaring who the Venezuelan President is.  But I’m really not.  At all.  

 
It is weird how you pick up on both left wing and right wing narratives with the only common link being pro Russia or anti USA. I don't believe you are a Russian troll but your posts are indistinguishable from one.

 
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