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***Chicago Bears Thread*** Poles is playing 5D chess! (19 Viewers)

flapgreen said:
There's no evidence they got taken more than anyone else gets taken. Where is that coming from?   No one is revealing to others exactly what they're doing or what other teams are telling them they're doing. 
Isnt that the nature of bluffing? Obviously if you get bluffed, you've been taken, to some extent. And if King's right and there was an 'understanding' going into the draft that the Bears wanted to move up... well that put a ton of power in Lynch's hands. Whoever makes the first move has less leverage, and when you make the first move before the draft and say hey, 'we're gonna give you to 3rds to move up unless Cleveland goes crazy and doesnt take the best player in tte draft.'

IE- Essentially Pace told the 49ers they were going to give him 2 3rd round picks to move up 1 slot... and he told them before the draft. Everything else aside, that handed all the leverage in the world to Lynch. It didnt matter at that point whether other teams were sniffin around, Pace was already acting as if they were. When Lynch asked for a 4th on top of the 3rds, well clearly that wasnt going to be the deal breaker given Pace's behavior.

Was he taken? I think you could make that case.

 
Don't forget to invite him to the draft party.
I went back and added that. They didn't need to invite him. But I doubt anyone in the organization knew they were drafting a QB that early. Fox didn't know. 

 
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nightmare said:
If M Glennon can't beat out the rookie for the job he is what he has alway's been -a backup.
They should have saved their money and trotted a scrub out there for 16 games, drafted Adams or another defensive guy and played for a top qb in next draft. 

 
twistd said:
Actually I thought, after signing Glennon, the Bears would not draft a QB highly this year. I thought they would give Glennon a chance and see what he could do. I thought they would use their draft picks to build the roster and look at a QB next year, in a better class of QBs, if Glennon failed.
Even after signing him this is exactly what someone with an ounce of logic would have thought would happen.  I think at least 3 of the top qbs next year if not more are ready to play from the opening whistle. 

 
Isnt that the nature of bluffing? Obviously if you get bluffed, you've been taken, to some extent. And if King's right and there was an 'understanding' going into the draft that the Bears wanted to move up... well that put a ton of power in Lynch's hands. Whoever makes the first move has less leverage, and when you make the first move before the draft and say hey, 'we're gonna give you to 3rds to move up unless Cleveland goes crazy and doesnt take the best player in tte draft.'

IE- Essentially Pace told the 49ers they were going to give him 2 3rd round picks to move up 1 slot... and he told them before the draft. Everything else aside, that handed all the leverage in the world to Lynch. It didnt matter at that point whether other teams were sniffin around, Pace was already acting as if they were. When Lynch asked for a 4th on top of the 3rds, well clearly that wasnt going to be the deal breaker given Pace's behavior.

Was he taken? I think you could make that case.
The overall context is important too. By doing that you were forced to give up third and fourth round picks in a draft very deep in needs you had. They didn't get a corner. They didn't get a WR. They could have grabbed more than one safety, more than one offensive lineman. But they ended up with only five picks in the draft, and they used three of those on small school guys who are making a big leap to the NFL, a safety who is injured, and a QB who started 13 games in college. That is very troubling. 

 
Even after signing him this is exactly what someone with an ounce of logic would have thought would happen.  I think at least 3 of the top qbs next year if not more are ready to play from the opening whistle. 
i think that if the Bears found a value I would have been fine with them drafting a QB. I thought Kizer at 52 was an excellent value for the Browns. He has the tools to be a top flight QB. He needs to get his head on straight and be given time to develop. If he fails the Browns only spent a mid round second on him. Much less risk involved. But if you don't find the value you wait until next year with a much better crop of QBs. 

 
i think that if the Bears found a value I would have been fine with them drafting a QB. I thought Kizer at 52 was an excellent value for the Browns. He has the tools to be a top flight QB. He needs to get his head on straight and be given time to develop. If he fails the Browns only spent a mid round second on him. Much less risk involved. But if you don't find the value you wait until next year with a much better crop of QBs. 
I see that and also if the Browns stink again this year I doubt they would hesitate to pull the trigger again in the top 10 or whatever next draft as they are not too heavily invested in Kizer.

 
Even after signing him this is exactly what someone with an ounce of logic would have thought would happen.  I think at least 3 of the top qbs next year if not more are ready to play from the opening whistle. 
Right. Anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have an ounce of logic.  Got it.  Pace also doesn't have an ounce of logic either. 

 
Weighing in here, I think those people who are upset we drafted a QB (even in the 1st) are wrong. Glennon was brought in as a stop gap with the small potential to be more. Our drafted QB being a 1st round guy significantly dampens that potential because he will be on the shortest of leashes but nonetheless, we all should've known what he was. That said, fans SHOULD be mad for several reasons.

First, we overpaid for him. We essentially spent our 1st, two 3rds, and a 4th for a guy that has started only 1 year and is not even considered a sure fire guy like, say, Andrew Luck. Not that scouts always (or even usually) get it right but you have to get a valuation somewhere and most valuations called this guy risky enough that he wouldn't be a top 10 overall player in the draft based on skill alone. All signs point at us probably being able to have gotten him at 3 while maintaining our picks and even if it worked out differently and someone leap frogged us, we could have done what the Browns did and gotten Kizer or someone to develop in the 2nd round. The Bears did what we are all guilty of doing in fantasy, they got infatuated with a player, stopped reasoning with their heads and let their hearts tell them that no price was too high.

Second, there is apparently a disconnect with Fox and Pace in terms of who was being drafted. I haven't read if this extended beyond the 1st round pick but since that pick essentially cost use 3 picks in this draft, it basicaly means a little less than half the draft was picked without the coach's input mattering. We can't have that. We are already one of the least talented rosters in football, if our front office isn't on the same page then we will stay that way because we A. won't be able to adequetely assess talent with multiple agendas at work and B. no one will want to come play here because of the dysfunction.

Third and most egregious in my book, we made only one defensive pick. A draft where all you could hear coming in was how immensely talent rich it was on the defensive side of the ball and you make only a single pick on defense?! I'm sorry but that is unforgiveable. I was an apologist for our defense last year because they showed a lot of good things. Our front 7 have definite promise. Our secondary plays less defense than James Harden on the basketball court. Our secondary is so bad that if you told me the strategy this year was to let the opposing WRs run free and to tire them out, I would tell you that is probably the best strategy for them. Prince was a good signing but we need an infusion of youth and talent at CB and safety and instead, we drafted almost exclusively for the offense. Horrible. If you told me I could go back in time and pick Jamal Adams in the 1st, Kizer in the 2nd, and have both those 3s and the 4 back, I would ask you whose soul you wanted and how soon can I get it to you.

That said, I would love to be the first one to eat crow on Trubisky. I would love for him to succeed and I personally thought the Bears needed to draft a QB but do not agree with the cost. I think that the odds of him living up to the price we paid is slim but anything is possible.

 
What fight. Everything is just opinion. Nobody'S opinion is more valuable than anyone eleses. If you're expecting me to agree with you, it's not going to happen.

Bear Down 
I'm not looking for agreement but two 3rd's and a 4th is not "mortgaging your future" and no 
GM of any origination anywhere is going to pass up a player this year thinking "we are going to 
stink so bad we'll get the superstar next year". That is noise. This GM did his job-we (fans and
media) will not know how good or bad it is until 2018 or 2019.

Draft grades and "woulda, coulda, shoulda" stories are just filler until they find something better
to write about. The Bears appear to be the easy target (like the 2016 Browns) so that's what we
are going to hear/read about. 

 
I'm not looking for agreement but two 3rd's and a 4th is not "mortgaging your future" and no 
GM of any origination anywhere is going to pass up a player this year thinking "we are going to 
stink so bad we'll get the superstar next year". That is noise. This GM did his job-we (fans and
media) will not know how good or bad it is until 2018 or 2019.

Draft grades and "woulda, coulda, shoulda" stories are just filler until they find something better
to write about. The Bears appear to be the easy target (like the 2016 Browns) so that's what we
are going to hear/read about. 
I'm not arguing with you. Arguing means you're trying to change someone's opinion to yours. We are just having a discussion. 

I believe if you were to have 100 random football fans (any teams fan), the only ones that would have planned the draft that Pace just executed would have been Packers fans.

 
I'm not arguing with you. Arguing means you're trying to change someone's opinion to yours. We are just having a discussion. 

I believe if you were to have 100 random football fans (any teams fan), the only ones that would have planned the draft that Pace just executed would have been Packers fans.
I don't think I'm going to change your (or anybody's) opinion. Just seeing this stuff repeated 100 times over doesn't mean it's true.  
 

 
I'm not looking for agreement but two 3rd's and a 4th is not "mortgaging your future" and no 
GM of any origination anywhere is going to pass up a player this year thinking "we are going to 
stink so bad we'll get the superstar next year". That is noise. This GM did his job-we (fans and
media) will not know how good or bad it is until 2018 or 2019.

Draft grades and "woulda, coulda, shoulda" stories are just filler until they find something better
to write about. The Bears appear to be the easy target (like the 2016 Browns) so that's what we
are going to hear/read about. 
Amen brotha! Amen! 

 
I don't think I'm going to change your (or anybody's) opinion. Just seeing this stuff repeated 100 times over doesn't mean it's true.  
 
Where were you a couple of months ago when flap was saying how stupid it was to cut Jeffery over and over every day.

 
The thought of Pace being on the verge of losing control of the organization is craziness. Finally have a potential franchise QB waiting in the wings. Still no big contracts on the horizon. No big cap investments at QB, WR, or RB for the next few years.  Plenty of cap flexibility for years to come.  Look at 2018 cap if you haven't yet.  Literally no contracts left that are guaranteed for anyone other than Long and the players still under their rookie contracts next year, give or take a few million in dead money. 

 
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That's true. I still think that. 
Yep. And if you remember, I said trust Pace. He must know something that the rest of us don't. I still believe that Jefffery left because he didn't want to part to this sinking ship. He may have been the one that knows something that the rest of us don't.

I expected Pace to draft a WR to help offset the loss of Jeffery. That didn't happen. Now I wish we still had Jeffery. 

All of this just makes me think Pace has no idea what he's doing.

 
Yep. And if you remember, I said trust Pace. He must know something that the rest of us don't. I still believe that Jefffery left because he didn't want to part to this sinking ship. He may have been the one that knows something that the rest of us don't.

I expected Pace to draft a WR to help offset the loss of Jeffery. That didn't happen. Now I wish we still had Jeffery. 

All of this just makes me think Pace has no idea what he's doing.
I understand the concerns. They're not unwarranted. I just think you're digging a little deeper for things that aren't there. I'm really not sure what he's doing. And he's definitely not going to let anyone know. 

 
The thought of Pace being on the verge of losing control of the organization is craziness. Finally have a potential franchise QB waiting in the wings. Still no big contracts on the horizon. No big cap investments at QB, WR, or RB for the next few years.  Plenty of cap flexibility for years to come.  Look at 2018 cap if you haven't yet.  Literally no contracts left that are guaranteed for anyone other than Long and the players still under their rookie contracts next year, give or take a few million in dead money. 
Having a lame duck coach and not telling him who you are drafting is not a good look to have no matter how you spin it.

 
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I didn't think I had anything positive to bring to the discussion-along with we do not
know the full impact until this season plays out. A Jeffery? The 2013-14 version would
be missed, the 2015-16 version not so much. 

I think M Glennon comes in and shows every one why he is a backup and not a starter.
The problem could then be J Fox and staff not developing the rookie. The NFL pundits
start to scream how right they were when the problem wasn't Pace's draft picks but a
disconnect between Pace and Fox. Pace is probably going to be here for 2018. Fox?




 

 
Pace controls the organization/staff. They follow him-not the other way around. GM's
answer to the owner. Coach's answer to the GM.  

 
What happens when Fox is fired and gets hired on someplace else. He then takes that team to the playoffs. (same way he has taken his other two teams to the playoffs)  At the same time, Pace continues to drive the team deeper in the hole. 

 
flapgreen said:
KCitons said:
This. This is what I'm talking about when I say Pace is going to lose control. Players play for money, but you can't disrespect them. It won't be long and this team will divide into factions. Front office, coach Fox, and Players. 
So Glennon gets what he and everyone else knew was only a 1 year contract for 16-18 million, a better offer than he got from anyone else in the league, and now he feels disrespected?  He's either delusional or his agent was lying to him.  Everyone and their mother knew the Bears would likely be drafting a franchise QB this year.  I LOL at thinking this team will be divided because of players considering that a sign of disrespect.  Come back to reality fellas
So you are saying it isn't disrespectful to ask Glennon (who is supposed to be the newly starting QB and has waited years to be in the drivers seat) to come to the draft party only for him to see his new team trade up to draft his replacement? Maybe you don't get it, but putting Glennon in that position just made him feel awkward, embarrassed, and just downright bad. 

 
So you are saying it isn't disrespectful to ask Glennon (who is supposed to be the newly starting QB and has waited years to be in the drivers seat) to come to the draft party only for him to see his new team trade up to draft his replacement? Maybe you don't get it, but putting Glennon in that position just made him feel awkward, embarrassed, and just downright bad. 
i'm sure free agents will be glad to come to Chicago next year.   :sarcasm:

 
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So you are saying it isn't disrespectful to ask Glennon (who is supposed to be the newly starting QB and has waited years to be in the drivers seat) to come to the draft party only for him to see his new team trade up to draft his replacement? Maybe you don't get it, but putting Glennon in that position just made him feel awkward, embarrassed, and just downright bad. 
It's ####### amateur night and it's so not surprising with this organization. Everyone top to bottom sucks. Of course Pace is inept. 

 
So you are saying it isn't disrespectful to ask Glennon (who is supposed to be the newly starting QB and has waited years to be in the drivers seat) to come to the draft party only for him to see his new team trade up to draft his replacement? Maybe you don't get it, but putting Glennon in that position just made him feel awkward, embarrassed, and just downright bad. 
If Glennon is a starting caliber QB, he takes the job in training camp and the rookie stays on the bench. If Glennon
was that confident in his abilities he would have told TB to "play me or trade me, I'm a starter" not wait years for a chance.

If Glennon is a starting caliber QB he doesn't take $15+ million from a team and then "feels cheated". He TAKES the job.
A starting QB has the ego the size of, well, a starting QB.

 
If Glennon is a starting caliber QB, he takes the job in training camp and the rookie stays on the bench. If Glennon
was that confident in his abilities he would have told TB to "play me or trade me, I'm a starter" not wait years for a chance.

If Glennon is a starting caliber QB he doesn't take $15+ million from a team and then "feels cheated". He TAKES the job.
A starting QB has the ego the size of, well, a starting QB.
All fair statements. But it's not giving your players the best opportunity to succeed. I get he's being paid to do whatever the Bears ask. But, we don't know what other offers Glennon had on the table. If Pace lied to him about starting to get him to Chicago, the word will spread and players won't want to come here.

These are the things that concern me about Pace. I think his ego may be bigger than his ability. 

 
Having a lame duck coach and not telling him who you are drafting is not a good look to have no matter how you spin it.
That has not been confirmed by anyone. Do you believe everything you hear? They also said the Bears were picking Thomas right after the trade was made.  The week's leading up to the trade, the "sources" were saying the Bears would take Watson at 3 if they took a qb. I could go on. A lot of things. They're not all true because you think they are. 

 
Pace kept the Bears interest in Trubisky completely silent. Now they let it leak out that Fox didn't like it? After Fox never lets anything leak out. That doesn't make sense. 

 
So you are saying it isn't disrespectful to ask Glennon (who is supposed to be the newly starting QB and has waited years to be in the drivers seat) to come to the draft party only for him to see his new team trade up to draft his replacement? Maybe you don't get it, but putting Glennon in that position just made him feel awkward, embarrassed, and just downright bad. 
No, I don't get it. No one knows how the draft will go. I doubt Pace and company are thinking how Glennon would feel if they drafted a qb. He's a grown man who makes a ton of money.  It's his job to keep. They've already said multiple times he's the starter.  They paid him to be one this year. End of story. The rest of the stuff is child's play. 

 
i'm sure free agents will be glad to come to Chicago next year.   :sarcasm:
You can't possibly think free agents care about the Glennon situation. Everyone knew going in. The Bears have kept plenty of free agents they signed. Free agents don't care. 

 
All fair statements. But it's not giving your players the best opportunity to succeed. I get he's being paid to do whatever the Bears ask. But, we don't know what other offers Glennon had on the table. If Pace lied to him about starting to get him to Chicago, the word will spread and players won't want to come here.

These are the things that concern me about Pace. I think his ego may be bigger than his ability. 
I don't understand. M Glennon is the starter. His "best opportunity to succeed" is under his control.
No one has said the rookie is the starter. He signed a heavy front end contract so I think he had an idea
what he was getting into.

 
I don't understand. M Glennon is the starter. His "best opportunity to succeed" is under his control.
No one has said the rookie is the starter. He signed a heavy front end contract so I think he had an idea
what he was getting into.
Name a QB taken in the first 5 picks that has not started his rookie season?

This is where it doesn't make sense. If you believe Trubisky is your guy, then he should be your guy right now. If he's not ready to be your guy right now, then you don't draft him #2 overall. Project QB's are not taken with early in the first round. 

 
Name a QB taken in the first 5 picks that has not started his rookie season?

This is where it doesn't make sense. If you believe Trubisky is your guy, then he should be your guy right now. If he's not ready to be your guy right now, then you don't draft him #2 overall. Project QB's are not taken with early in the first round. 
What's qbs ever come out ready to play right away? A handful in the past 10 years. Your logic is flawed. You don't wait on a qb for a decade or longer because one doesn't fall in your lap ready to play straight away.  It's the perfect situation. They have a starter with experience. They took the top qb in the draft to sit and learn. It is exactly what you want. 

 
What's qbs ever come out ready to play right away? A handful in the past 10 years. Your logic is flawed. You don't wait on a qb for a decade or longer because one doesn't fall in your lap ready to play straight away.  It's the perfect situation. They have a starter with experience. They took the top qb in the draft to sit and learn. It is exactly what you want. 
You sidestepped the question. What qb taken in the top 5 sat out a year?  It doesn't happen. The stigma is that the pick is too valuable to waste on a non starter. If you evaluate the qb as not ready to start, then you don't take him that early. 

 
All fair statements. But it's not giving your players the best opportunity to succeed. I get he's being paid to do whatever the Bears ask. But, we don't know what other offers Glennon had on the table. If Pace lied to him about starting to get him to Chicago, the word will spread and players won't want to come here.

These are the things that concern me about Pace. I think his ego may be bigger than his ability. 
It's giving your franchise qb a chance to succeed. I'm not sure what you want.  Draft a qb but don't bring in a vet to start his rookie year because you don't want to hurt his feelings? Wait to draft a qb until you find one that's ready to play straight away? You would likely need the #1 pick in the draft to get one of those. What if you don't have a top 5 pick? All of the other teams want that QB too. I'm not being facetious. I just want to know how you would rather it would be done. 

 
You sidestepped the question. What qb taken in the top 5 sat out a year?  It doesn't happen. The stigma is that the pick is too valuable to waste on a non starter. If you evaluate the qb as not ready to start, then you don't take him that early. 
I thought it was a rhetorical question. 

 
If Glennon is a starting caliber QB, he takes the job in training camp and the rookie stays on the bench. If Glennon
was that confident in his abilities he would have told TB to "play me or trade me, I'm a starter" not wait years for a chance.

If Glennon is a starting caliber QB he doesn't take $15+ million from a team and then "feels cheated". He TAKES the job.
A starting QB has the ego the size of, well, a starting QB.
None of that changes the fact that the Bears asked Glennon to go to the draft party where he would be interacting with fans, and the only pick they made that day during the draft party was Glennon's replacement.  It was ####ty. They shouldn't have invited him knowing what they had planned, and Pace did not decide at the last minute to trade up to take Trubisky. 

 
It's giving your franchise qb a chance to succeed. I'm not sure what you want.  Draft a qb but don't bring in a vet to start his rookie year because you don't want to hurt his feelings? Wait to draft a qb until you find one that's ready to play straight away? You would likely need the #1 pick in the draft to get one of those. What if you don't have a top 5 pick? All of the other teams want that QB too. I'm not being facetious. I just want to know how you would rather it would be done. 
It sends mixed signals as to what you are trying to do. Pace spent the most money in free agency on a QB. Then takes a QB with the 2nd highest pick in the draft. 

Not a rhetorical question: how would you have felt if Pace took Kizer with their 2nd round pick. And for good measure took Peterman in the 4th round?

 

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