Hawkeye21
Footballguy
There were plenty of other scrubs that are now considered Super Bowl Champs on that team as well.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
***Chicago Bears Thread*** Poles is playing 5D chess! (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter flapgreen
- Start date
Gustavo Fring
Footballguy
The Tick
Footballguy
Well with the franchise tag window opening today, I guess offseason player decisions need to get moving with Jeffery as our first big one.
I honestly think my personal feelings are not to tag him again, I just don't see the point. He's been a Bear for 5 years now, yes not all with this staff, but I think they really should understand who he is and what he can do by this point. I think it's time to offer him a contract, probably top 6-12WR type contract and see what he does, or just let him go and get the comp pick. If we franchise him again, I don't see ANY way he stays beyond this year, and I don't see how that helps this team in the long run. We may have a new starting QB, and giving him an actual weapon that will be gone next year seems worthless.
If anything maybe the transition tag would be useful for him. I think he may have a little overinflated opinion of his value, and maybe that tag gives him a chance to see that he's not worth what he thinks while still making sure that as long as a team doesn't completely overpay him (top 4 WR money or something that no way we will match) we don't lose him.
You get better as a team by drafting good players and then keeping them. Would be a shame to lose one of the few good players Emory drafted, because even with his injury history (who doesn't have one) no question he's talented. Just my 2 cents.
I honestly think my personal feelings are not to tag him again, I just don't see the point. He's been a Bear for 5 years now, yes not all with this staff, but I think they really should understand who he is and what he can do by this point. I think it's time to offer him a contract, probably top 6-12WR type contract and see what he does, or just let him go and get the comp pick. If we franchise him again, I don't see ANY way he stays beyond this year, and I don't see how that helps this team in the long run. We may have a new starting QB, and giving him an actual weapon that will be gone next year seems worthless.
If anything maybe the transition tag would be useful for him. I think he may have a little overinflated opinion of his value, and maybe that tag gives him a chance to see that he's not worth what he thinks while still making sure that as long as a team doesn't completely overpay him (top 4 WR money or something that no way we will match) we don't lose him.
You get better as a team by drafting good players and then keeping them. Would be a shame to lose one of the few good players Emory drafted, because even with his injury history (who doesn't have one) no question he's talented. Just my 2 cents.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I can't imagine them tagging him this year as it would cost them over $17 million. I would like to see him signed to a long term contract but it's going to cost a lot. Rumor has it that he's looking for somewhere around $14.5 million a year for 5 years and anywhere from $30 to $60 million guaranteed. I don't think the Bears come close enough to that. I'm guessing they offer him something like $13 million a year with less than $30 guaranteed.
Odds are that Jeffery will no longer be with the Bears this season.
The Tick
Footballguy
Yeah, something like that, probably with some more guaranteed money, TY's contract was surprisingly low there. Hopefully they can get that done, would be a good start to the offseason.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I doubt Jeffery signs for anything less than $14 million a year and a decent amount of guaranteed money. Some team is going to pay him what he wants. I really think Jeffery is gone unless they tag him.
flapgreen
Footballguy
I don't think the Bears have much of a choice but the re-sign him, but he hasn't shown he's a top 10 guy over the past two years, which is what matters. Start overpaying for guys now and it won't stop. Still, there will be another huge hole on the roster if he walks. I think they work it out. One of the only good drafted players they have left in their roster.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
I don't think we should re-sign Alshon. He's not worth the money he wants. Time to move on, imo.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Players get over paid all the time and it's been going on for years. If the Bears gave Jeffery a contract for $14.5 million a year I think that would be in the top 5 yet. What we need to think about though is what will that be in 2 to 3 years? Chances are that contract will be outside of the top 10 by then after a lot of guys come off their rookie deals. Now lets say Jeffery averages in the top 15 every year during his contract which is very possible if he doesn't miss too many games. If he puts up a top 8 season but his contract is not in the top 10, wouldn't that be considered a deal?
The problem with most fans is that they are only looking at the current moment and not the future. They look at what he just did and say that's not good enough to get paid that much. I'm not saying the Bears need to sign him but it's important when signing a player to consider what that player's future production will be and what his value will be in the next few years.
If the Bears really think he can be a top 15 WR for the next 5 years then sign him. If not then tag him or let him go.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
I don't think Alshon is that good. Just because some teams overpay for players doesn't mean that's what the Bears should do. Time to move on.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Why don't you think he's that good? Is it just because he missed some games? If you actually look at his production when playing I think you'll find that he's actually pretty good.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Well, you're right. He is good... when he plays but he misses a lot of time and I suspect he's a little soft.Hawkeye21 said:
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
He missed games his rookie year due to a broken hand and he missed 4 games last year due to suspension. So there was one season out of 5 where he had nagging injuries and that makes him soft. If that's your criteria for being soft then you're going to have to include a lot of other really good football players. Julio, Green and Dez could all be in that category. Hell, even Megatron was often injured.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Those guys all produce when they are nicked up. If you like Alshon, great! I'm not a fan personally. I'd prefer the Bears cut the cord and find a better WR1.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
That's fine. I'm just curious as to why people feel that way. I think most people's reasons are for the wrong reason or they don't quite understand all the details. It's like people are just looking at the most basic information available and saying that he's not the good and since he's missed some games he's not reliable. Once you dive a little deeper into his stats and actually watch the games you'll see that he is productive.
Just as a hypothetical if you look at Jeffery's average yards per game and multiplied it by 80 games, which is the max he could have played, he would have averaged 1,155 yards each year. Who wouldn't want that every year? That's only averaging 4.8 catches a game too. If he would just average only 5 catches per game at the 15 yards per catch he's averaged and take that times 80 games he would average 1,200 yards each year. Not bad.
I don't think we should resign Alshon. He's been banged up a bit the last 2 years and with the PED suspension, is looking more like a liability. If he was willing to take a small discount, maybe. My thought though is that we need to get our house in order first. Get a QB and get a secondary so we aren't just giving away games. There are plenty of WRs out there who can probably be gotten at a reasonable price who will be serviceable. Give me Kendall Wright, Pierre Garcon or Robert Woods at a discount over Jeffery at his max.
Also I read something last year that leads me to believe Jeffery is money chasing. I can't remember where so take it with a grain of salt but I read that Jeffery has been pretty free with his spending, to the point where he has already been lent money as a sort of advance on the large sums he is expected to receive in free agency. He's already spent some of that money he's going to get in this year's contract so he will be looking to maximize what he can pocket
Also I read something last year that leads me to believe Jeffery is money chasing. I can't remember where so take it with a grain of salt but I read that Jeffery has been pretty free with his spending, to the point where he has already been lent money as a sort of advance on the large sums he is expected to receive in free agency. He's already spent some of that money he's going to get in this year's contract so he will be looking to maximize what he can pocket
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I've never heard that about his spending. As for signing a FA WR it's very possible. I don't care for any of them over the age of 30. Kendall Wright and Robert Woods could be alright. Kenny Stills is still very young and has some talent. Cordarrell Patterson has been a let down at WR so far but he's a great return guy so that could be nice to have.
The problem is that a lot of those guys are still probably going to be trying to get more than what they're worth. Just because they don't cost as much as Jeffery do not mean they are a discount or not over priced. Which guys has the best chance to replace what Jeffery offered the Bears is the big question.
The problem is that a lot of those guys are still probably going to be trying to get more than what they're worth. Just because they don't cost as much as Jeffery do not mean they are a discount or not over priced. Which guys has the best chance to replace what Jeffery offered the Bears is the big question.
The Tick
Footballguy
As for the last part, I think you were hearing about is Fantrax (or whatever that company is) deal where they are trying to treat football players like investment stocks. They sign a player they think will have large future contracts, and get investors together to give him some upfront money for a % of those future contracts. So I believe the risk is on the investors not Jeffery, as I think they take a set % and hope that is more then they initially gave him. I think it may also include media deals and other sports career related income streams, but again don't know all the details.
I have no idea and have never heard anything about his spending in particular, he actually seems to lay pretty low from what I can tell, so I'd be surprised if his spending was way out of whack, but could be. I have worried a little bit that this Fantrax group could be a bad influence on his future contracts, and could make him harder to sign.
That being said, if they can come up with a decent contract, something below those top WR's I'd still like to see it happen. If he wants to be the top paid WR or in that top tier class, yeah, I'd look at other options. It will just be sad that the only high level skill player that we drafted in the 6 years before Pace is not going to make it to his second contract with us.
Generally I agree, never want to see our home grown players go when they could potentially be top 10 at their position but I don't see him taking any kind of discount. I mean, we don't have a winning culture and we don't look to be getting one in the next year or two. Only way I see him returning at any discount is if his value took such a hit from the PED suspension and the down year that he stays for a year or two to rehab his value or if management somehow convinces him that we have a real QB plan that can give him a good look for another free agency shot in 3-4 years.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
I'm a Bear fan and very familiar with the details. Unfortunately, real football isn't as easy as taking your per game average and extrapolating out. I think Alshon is a bit of a diva, soft and basically unreliable. I could be wrong and obviously you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm ready to move on and I hope the Bears are too.
flapgreen
Footballguy
He's not worth what Julio and AJ are getting but the Bears should pay him that, if there's no other choice. The people saying let him walk are out of their minds. Would be yet another huge whole on the roster over a couple million in cap space when the Bears have tons. Don't be fools. Get the guy signed and stretch it as long as you can to try and get the best deal.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Move on from one of the most talented guys on the team because you feel he's a bit of a diva? I hope you were also in favor of when they got rid of Marshall, Bennett and Forte.
I agree that Jeffery seems to have a certain attitude that makes it seem like he doesn't want to be in Chicago but he hasn't been an issue. He's not a guy that Marshall or Bennett that cause issues on the field, in the locker room or off the field. His biggest issues are that he had one season with soft tissue injuries, didn't go to volunteer workouts and got suspended for PEDs.
RBM
Footballguy
Alshon is talented and seems like a team guy, bring him back. Hopefully he will toughen up if the team improves. But really do we need to be creating more big holes? We're fortunate in that we might be good at wr with White, Alshon, Meredith, so if we can cover a position before FA/draft even gets under way, that's big.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
I liked BMarsh and thought it was a mistake getting rid of him. He wants to win and plays through nagging injuries. Those are guys you want on your football team, the Brandon Marshalls of the world. I'm ready to move on from this discussion. It's clear we have completely different outlooks on what players we want. Kinda pointless to keep digging until I agree with you, wouldn't you say?
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I'm just trying to understand some people's opinions because many of them seem misguided. That's ok though and we'll move on. So if you are ready for the Bears to move on from Jeffery then you must have a good idea on replacing him. It wouldn't make much sense to let one of the best players on the team go if there isn't a plan for replacing him.
At least when they traded Marshall they knew they had Jeffery to replace him and they were going to draft a WR with their first pick to opposite him. There was a plan. I'm not sure what that plan would be now.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Listen, I'm not really that invested in the Bears to be honest. I care way more about my fantasy teams. That said, I love Jordan Howard and think the bears should continue to focus on the running game. Cutler sucks and we need to move on from him before we do anything with Alshon. Unfortunately, this draft class is not going to provide us with a true franchise QB, so I hope the Bears don't get sucked into that line of thinking, if so, we're doomed for another 4 years. If we end up keeping Alshon, it won't be the end of the world. I just think, similar to the Cutler signing, it will prove to be a bad move, especially at $14MM per. Alshon has not earned that kind of money to this point. If we could get him at $10MM per, then that's a good deal and I'm in favor of seeing if he can consistently be the WR we've seen in spurts. Bottom line, we need a QB and there are none to draft. I'm probably in the minority here but I think the Bears should sign Romo to a short term deal and then focus on a franchise QB in the 2018+ drafts. With Howard proving to be the real deal and an improving defense and IF Alshon can play all year and perform well, we could actually make the playoffs in that scenario (Romo signed and stays healthy). The only certainty as a Bear fan is that Cutler needs to go ASAP.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Signing Romo makes almost zero sense for the Bears and Romo. Romo wants to play on a winning team before he's done, that isn't the Bears. The Bears need a franchise QB which Romo is no longer. If they are going to get a guy just to get them by that's still not Romo because he's old, injury prone and most likely not all that cheap. If you just want a guy to start while grooming a rookie then stick with Cutler or Hoyer. I think I'd rather the Bears trade for Garoppolo than sign Romo unless he is willing to sign some super friendly deal because no other team wants him.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
So you'd rather have an expensive QB that abslutely sucks (Cutler) than a similarly priced QB who is good (Romo)? I'm assuming both QBs would cost the same and neither would be the answer longterm but one is good and one is not. You'd prefer to stick with the one who is not good? Interesting.
Mark me down as wanting the better QB who could make us competitive while we shop for a franchise guy. All things equal, I don't know why you'd choose Cutler.
Mark me down as wanting the better QB who could make us competitive while we shop for a franchise guy. All things equal, I don't know why you'd choose Cutler.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Cutler is already under contract which is perfectly in line with his performance. They would have to sign Romo to a new contract. Romo hasn't played a whole lot the last few years and I have no idea if he would perform better than Cutler on the Bears. It's like you want Romo just for the sake of not having Cutler anymore. That's not a good enough reason for me.
I'm looking long term for the Bears here. Where is this team going to be? Does having Romo for two years really do much for them? What will Romo do that Cutler hasn't done? Are you looking for 7 wins next year instead of 5 or 6? What is the ultimate goal?
flapgreen
Footballguy
I don't want either at this point, but Romo is 36 and has barely played a game in two years because of multiple serious injuries. There's nothing good about that.
flapgreen
Footballguy
flapgreen
Footballguy
I don't think we're good at wr. Hopefully White will stay healthy but it has to be treated just as a bonus at this point. Meredith looked good but still not completely sure. Even if Alshon stays, which I think he definitely will, we need a lot more speed on offense. The entire team is so slow on both sides of the ball.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
If the Bears are going to add a TE in the draft this year I hope they strongly consider George Kittle. He's athletic, can catch and may be the best blocker at his position in the draft. I also love the fact that he's a Hawkeye and he can be had later in the draft. Possible 5th round pick.
https://twitter.com/MikeMayock/status/832629070626189312
https://twitter.com/MikeMayock/status/832629070626189312
The Tick
Footballguy
I don't think there are any "obvious" can't miss QBs in this class (then again I thought mariotta would suck...). I see a QB that has competed and won in some of the biggest games, but has HUGE accuracy concerns, a one year starter, and a guy that just came off a horrible season. Really not dying to spend a high pick on any one of those guys, though I wouldn't be surprised if one of them becomes a true NFL #1. I can't see spending the #3 pick on one of those guys because we need an impact player that will be there at that time.
Now if one of those guys lasted until the second, that would be interested, but don't see that happening.
There will also likely be some other QB in this class that is a quality NFL starter, so hopefully we can find him somewhere.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
This is what really sucks about this year. The Bears are finally in a position to draft a QB very high and no one thinks any of the prospects are worth the pick. If they don't take one in the first round then they have to wait till the second but chances are the QBs available then will also be reaches. I'm not sure there will ever be a round in this draft where a QB is the best player available.
The other issue is that this should be the highest pick the Bears have in a very long time unless they trade up in the future. I do not see the Bears losing this many games again any time soon. It's very likely they have another double digit loss season but I don't see them picking in the top 5 again. That means this year is the year to get a top QB.
I'm not sure how I feel about it.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
The Bears are now "officially" shopping Cutler. Hopefully they can find a team willing to trade for him. Some will say that teams won't trade because they can just wait for the Bears to release him but it may be smarter for them to trade. If a team trades for Cutler they also acquire his very friendly contract which goes through 2020 and doesn't guarantee him any more money. The only issue with that is Cutler has some control over where he goes since he could refuse to play or just retire without having to pay back any money.
It's going to be very interesting what happens here. Hopefully they can manage to get a late round draft pick at least.
It's going to be very interesting what happens here. Hopefully they can manage to get a late round draft pick at least.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Whatever they do this offseason, I have no faith this organization will ever be successful. After last year, I'll never believe in this pitiful team again. Why should the McCaskeys even care that much? A team's success or ticket sales have very little to do with the profit they turn. George and his cronies aren't very concerned about wins and losses. That's the state of the NFL now. Rich owners making tons of money. Doesn't matter what product they put on the field. The fans who think the owners care what they think are delusional.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Then why watch or even cheer for the Bears if that's how you truly feel?
What has to be done to change your mind? New owners?
RBM
Footballguy
I'm hearing he might retire. That would not surprise me at all. Guy doesn't seem to love the game.
KCitons
Footballguy
You guys are doing this all wrong. I don't care about Cutler, Alshon, and in part Howard if we don't build the line. Invest $'s and picks until you get it right. The more holes you produce the more rushing yards, the less sacks, and the more time you have for mediocre WR's and young qb's to make plays.
To answer Flaps question, I would replace Alshon with White, he's a 1st round pick and should produce at that level or we will be discussing his future next year.
To answer Flaps question, I would replace Alshon with White, he's a 1st round pick and should produce at that level or we will be discussing his future next year.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Building the line is obvious. Unfortunately this class is weak at O line.
flapgreen
Footballguy
White who? Kevin White? Guy has missed his first 2 NFL seasons. You serious, Clark?
The biggest mistake this team has made over its history is never bringing in the players or coaches to support a qb successfully. Taking away the only good receiver the team has left would be just another example of this. Team has tons of cap space and there aren't any great offensive lineman to spend money on in free agency with what you would save letting Alshon walk. Would be just another unnecessary hole to create when you have the cap space to keep him. Makes no sense. They're keeping him.
flapgreen
Footballguy
I agree they need an OL. But I guarantee you they stick with the same tackles as last year. It's the Bears way. Have never supported and backed up a qb with good players and coaches. Loggains will continue to throw the ball a ridiculous amount of times every game while Fox justifies it as "situational." Story of the franchise.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
The OL can be built up a little more but it's not an issue right now. Their OL performed well last year and should do even better this year. The RBs are in fine shape too. The major issue is getting a competent QB to start and a rookie to develop for the future. As for the WRs, it doesn't matter if the QB has time to throw if they can't catch the ball. Last year they had WAY too many drops.
Last edited by a moderator:
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Is the name calling necessary? You can disagree all you want but others should be able to voice their opinions without ridicule.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I didn't call anyone names. I called the idea/comment dumb. There's a difference. I know everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I'm entitled to criticize opinions if I feel they are very wrong. If he wants to back up his opinion then I hope he does because I will admit that I'm wrong if he proves his point. As of know it's a terrible idea.
