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***Chicago Bears Thread*** Poles is playing 5D chess! (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter flapgreen
- Start date
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I think the 2 teams were basically equal. Came down to a kicker. Even a bad kicker makes that 80% of the time. Sucks to be a Bears fan. Great to be an Eagles fan.
-X-
Footballguy
Good to see there are some classy PHI fans around here.
Ultimately, 31 out of 32 teams all wind up being losers. Our turn came up a bit earlier than we hoped. We were picked to be dead last and surprised a lot of people and teams.
Good experience for the future. We’ll be back and better because of it. Nagy is a way better coach than we’ve had in decades. It took Ditka four years to get a ring.
Now we just have to see what Vic does. Filling his shoes will be hard to do.
I’ll be rooting for the Chiefs, Rams and anyone playing the Pats.
Ultimately, 31 out of 32 teams all wind up being losers. Our turn came up a bit earlier than we hoped. We were picked to be dead last and surprised a lot of people and teams.
Good experience for the future. We’ll be back and better because of it. Nagy is a way better coach than we’ve had in decades. It took Ditka four years to get a ring.
Now we just have to see what Vic does. Filling his shoes will be hard to do.
I’ll be rooting for the Chiefs, Rams and anyone playing the Pats.
Feel for you Bears fans. You've got a lot to be proud of and importantly, a lot to look forward to. Hang in there. It was a bad beat. Plain and simple. The game could have very easily gone the other way. And congrats to Eagles fans. They did what they had to do.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
The run game was getting shut down and that really hurt. I would have liked to see Cohen get the ball in space but they never did. Those passes to him behind the line of scrimmage are not very productive when they're keying on him. I give the Eagles a ton of credit for playing great defense.
Tough loss for the Bears, but I'm thankful I don't have to listen to more garbage from @flapgreen trying to talk **!* to me for believing Pace prematurely pushed all his chips in. I told him that the true burn of that overpay wasn't going to be felt for 3 years, but he loved trying to drag me back in after every win to talk smack during year 1. I guess we can call a round 1 loss (to a 9-7 team with a backup QB and no RB) karma.
For those who aren't familiar with flap's constant baiting, I've got nothing against the Bears. Just didn't like Pace's trade for the team's long term outlook. Best of luck to you guys. I'm jealous of any team that doesn't have an idiot for a coach.
For those who aren't familiar with flap's constant baiting, I've got nothing against the Bears. Just didn't like Pace's trade for the team's long term outlook. Best of luck to you guys. I'm jealous of any team that doesn't have an idiot for a coach.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I have no problem with you sticking it to flap because he kind of deserves it but I don't agree with the rest of what you said about the team.
I came to discuss the trade (because it was an interesting blockbuster) and he basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about, Pace is a genius, and leave the thread. I left bc I had nothing left to talk about and he just kept @-ing me in here.
To clarify, the idiot coach comment was not about your coach, but mine. If you are talking about the trade, I don't think it is controversial to say that trading away a 2019 and 2020 1st won't really be felt until the 2021 season. Also, Mack will be 30 at that time and Trubisky will be nearing the end of his rookie deal.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
A lot can change by then. The team is so much younger than they use to be and they have a great core. This team is in such a better position than they ever were before.
RBM
Footballguy
If you think that game yesterday justifies your awful and almost definitely wrong take you're a bigger fool than you've already shown.
Do you think Trubisky is the truth? Even if you do today, did you think he was after year 1? I don't see how anyone could have. I felt (and still do) that Pace should've seen how year 2 went before pushing in all his chips.
As I keep saying, I think the bind Pace will be in after 3 years will justify my take. My take was never based on year 1 performance. I think we all recognized (or should have) when you trade away two 1sts, you're giving your team a nice boost in year 1 of a trade at the expense of the future.If you read what I wrote and thought I was saying a single game justified my take, then there's only one fool here and it isn't me. I don't actually believe in karma, but I was saying a tough loss for flapgreen was karma for constantly baiting me back into this thread after he told me to leave and I left.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I don't think I could call any player the truth after a partial season. I can't call him that after two season but I do feel a lot better about him. I see potential. I know he may never be great but I also think there's a chance. He's the best QB they've had in a very long time, which isn't saying much.
I'm sure there were plenty of players who some believed were the truth but went on to be busts or just above average. I was impressed with Mitch being able to put the Bears in a position to win last night in the final minutes of the game.
rschroeder1
Footballguy
I think two firsts looks extreme on paper, but if you look at it in a different way, I believe the trade was an absolute coup.
If you read what I wrote and thought I was saying a single game justified my take, then there's only one fool here and it isn't me. I don't actually believe in karma, but I was saying a tough loss for flapgreen was karma for constantly baiting me back into this thread after he told me to leave and I left.
With any first round draft choice, you would be thrilled to get a player like Mack in his prime. Well, the Bears spent a first round pick to do that (2019).
The 2020 pick figures to be a low first round pick. The Bears received the Raiders' 2020 second round pick, which figures to be a high one. So you could be looking at a swap of between 5-10 spots, depending how things pan out after 2019.
To say the Bears "drafted" Mack with a first round pick and only had to give up 5-10 draft slots to do it? I believe anyone would take that deal.
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I agree.
However, trading two firsts for the right to pay Khalil Mack a handsome salary is the kind of move you expect a team to make when they know their QB is indeed legit but the window is closing. Like I'd understand if the Chargers or Saints did it. But at least give Nagy a year to get his system in place before pushing in all your chips. Don't do it in year 1 of Nagy's tenure and year 2 of Trubisky's career.
I tried to bring this up in the offseason discussion of the trade... too many people are looking at it the way you just mentioned. The flaw in that logic is that you are totally missing the salary cap implications. Mack's contract is $23.5M/year. Baker Mayfield's 1.01 contract is $8M/year. Calvin Ridley (1.26) is $2.7M/year. Draft picks are important because of the manageable contracts, not because of guaranteed talent. First round picks just have better odds of hitting, which combined with their contracts, is why they are so valuable.
As for 2020, a lot can change by then so I wouldn't count on the difference being so small. The Raiders look like an absolute **** show, so you could be right, but they've been amassing a lot of picks with all these trades. I don't have faith they'll do a good job with those picks, but if they do, this could be a very different team as early as Gruden's second year. And going back to the earlier part of this discussion, the big difference between a 1st and a 2nd, is that the 1st has a 5th year option which is much more cap friendly than trying to sign a (successful) 2nd round pick to an unrestricted FA contract.
rschroeder1
Footballguy
You are correct in pointing out that my thinking is based on assumptions. I believe the assumptions I'm making have some weight, but this is the NFL, and things can change in an instant. That's totally fair.
As for waiting to see if Trubisky is legit, I understand what you are trying to say, but I feel like you contradict yourself in your next paragraph in discussing rookie contracts. The Bears have five years of cheap Trubisky - going into this year, there were four left. There is only so much waiting you can do before the window of cheap QB play is closed, presuming Trubisky is the answer. In my opinion, the way the NFL incentivizes the role of young players on a team, if a team goes the route of drafting a QB, it's incumbent on them to go for it during that window.
Of course, the larger point here with the Bears is that the franchise has struggled with getting all its ducks in a row. Drafting Trubisky and wasting year one of five with John Fox was egregious. I'm thrilled with Nagy as a head coach, so maybe things will luck out in that regard, but the seeming lack of authority the Bears have placed in Ryan Pace at points in his tenure have hampered the Bears from lining up GM-coach-QB-coordinator combos successfully. I'm tepidly hopeful that Pace has earned a greater degree of authority in the franchise, but with the McCaskeys you can never be sure.
I think the other point is that Mack is such a special player, in a perfect world of waiting for Trubisky to prove himself, a Mack-level player simply may not come on the market. The Raiders situation - cash-strapped, investing all personnel authority in a ten-year contract coach somewhat inexplicably - is pretty unique.
The assumption about the gap between Chicago's 1st and Oakland's 2nd was not the main flaw - the main flaw was thinking of trading for Mack and signing him to $23.5M/year as the same thing as drafting a player. The discrepancy between rookie contracts and Mack's contract is the key point I was trying to get across. Mack alone will account for 1/8th of your 2019 salary cap.
And I get what you're saying about "wasting" Trubisky's rookie contract, but if you push all your chips in on him before you know if he's the real deal then that's worse, IMO, than postponing things one year. Plus, I don't even like the idea of ever pushing all your chips in. I like to see teams acquiring picks and building through the draft rather than trading away future picks. Being in cap hell can be a painful things to watch your franchise go through. I mean, I watched my Texans trade away a 2nd round pick just to get rid of Osweiller's contract. Such bad management. And I fear Pace's trade will put the Bears in a similar jam. In three years Trubisky's contract will be up (if he's good, he'll be expensive, if he's bad, you'll be looking for a free agent or rookie), Mack will be 31, and you'll be missing two 1st round players.
As for Mack being a special player, yes, he is... but I don't think a GM should ever get tunnel vision. Wait a year and sign him as a free agent without trading for him. If he's somehow not available, use all that cap space to upgrade other positions. There are many ways to build a team. Rarely will success solely hinge on a DE/OLB.
And you are right to be thrilled about Nagy (and irritated about the previous Fox hiring). I just think Pace should've given Nagy a year to work out the kinks in his first head coaching job.
rschroeder1
Footballguy
You're right, I did miss your main point about the value of a drafted first round player in terms of cost and years. Pace has gone the opposite route of accumulating picks, no doubt about that. On the flip side though, there is an assumed value of any draft pick - the odds of panning out aren't guaranteed, whereas Mack is as close to a guarantee as there is. Whether that guarantee is worth the sizable contract is something that we could probably keep going back and forth on. I'm not deeply versed in the Bears salary cap situation beyond base knowledge of it.
To be totally honest with you, I think after six years of just awful football, I'm a bit greedy for having Bears football be fun again? Perhaps not as focused on the process besides just enjoying a brief taste of success. The game is all about long-term sustainability, though, as you have rightly pointed out. The Bears have always been stuck in the waves and troughs of competing for far too long.
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modogg
Footballguy
i think blame would be shared, but if they want to pick out 2 things I think the defense allowing a TD drive with 5 minutes left and the 2-point conversion attempt would be on the top of the list of things that let the team down
Apparently that is indeed the rule when the ball is never recovered on a completed pass that is fumbled. Its crazy but there you go.Hawkeye21 said:
That being said, how any team isnt coached to jump on every loose ball on every single play no matter what is beyond me. That and touch the guy with the ball if hes laying on the ground. Simple habits but they cost teams every week.
Edit: more accurately, the play was initially ruled incomplete, and the rule says if there is not clear recovery the play cant be reviewed at all.
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-X-
Footballguy
Yes. They watched the ref wave incomplete, so nobody thought to jump on the ball. Another thing to work on. Always jump on the ball no matter what the refs say, until it is controlled and handed to one of them.
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i didnt think it was a catch... i mean the defender had his arm in there the entire time miller had the ball in his arms... he didnt really make a football move to me.... but it sounds like i just dont have a clear understanding of the new catch rule since the official ruling was it was a catchHawkeye21 said:
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I was fine with it being incomplete but I don't see how it could've been anyone else's ball besides the Bears if it was ruled complete. I always thought once the whistle blows the play is dead and anything that happens after doesn't matter. So, if it was a completion then fumble but no one recovered it then it would remain with the Bears. How could an Eagles player be awarded the ball after the play was blown dead.
FF Wiseguy
Footballguy
Looks like the way they called it was correct, but the rule employed is very strange. Essentially if they had ruled a catch on the field, then Bears get the ball at the 5 because of no clear recovery, or they could have ruled it incomplete on review. But since they ruled incomplete initially, the only reversal could have been a catch and clear fumble recovery by either side. Not sure the rule is written that way, but it is what it is.
Catch, fumble? Rule says incomplete pass for Bears
ETA: Didn't see that this was explained a few posts up. But the linked article spells out the rule.
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Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
Bears fans you have a helluva bright future. Damn good game.
Yo Flap, where you at? Can you at least mark yourself as “safe”?
Yo Flap, where you at? Can you at least mark yourself as “safe”?
renesauz
IBL Representative
I think Bears caught a break. Properly called in real time there's no way the Bears recover that fumble. Refs screwed it up, but the end result of the play was as fair as possible under the circumstance of the blown at the moment call of incomplete.Hawkeye21 said:
Great season by the Bears overall. I bleed forest green but have had a soft spot for this Bears team all year and would have cheered them on going forward. Not so sure all the hate on Parkey is reasonable though. Kid is NOT an upper echelon kicker, but he is among the top 25 in the league... he belongs in the NFL. More, he had already hit several FGs in that game. He isn't the reason the Bears lost. One could argue that he was one of the reasons they were still in it at all at the end.
renesauz
IBL Representative
Not sure this is correct, because at the moment there was also the question of whether or not the Bear player was DOWN before the fumble. He wasn't, but that was hardly a complete given at the moment.
flapgreen
Footballguy
I dish it out. I can take it, too. The Bears going from worst to first and going head to head with the defending Champs to the last second is more than I could hope for in any one year turnaround. The fact you think this season shows justification to your asinine prediction shows how big of a fool you are and how clueless you are when it comes to football. Now move along
flapgreen
Footballguy
First off, you have no idea anything about me. I've been around here a long time and know a lot of footballguys personally. Accusing someone of doing something like that when you don't know them says more about you than it does me. Have a nice off season.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Seriously, how clueless can a person be? Trubisky balled out in crunch time and led to what should've been the game winning score over the defending Champs. Your willingness to want to be right is making you look foolish. You keep up with nothing about the Bears cap situation and the numbers of the actual trade itself. If you're going to roll up in here to talk trash, at least be prepared.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Brutal brutal loss. So hard to stomach after being right there in a position to win. Great game, Eagles. Amazing perseverance.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Never based on 1 year performance lol. How convenient. The hedging you're doing is blatantly obvious to everyone. Bears run away with a division they've been getting pummeled in for years and now it's not based on a "1 year performance." I get that you pay no attention to how salary caps work and rookie contracts. Let me educate you. You spend big when there's talent available while your QB is on his rookie contract. Trubisky has 2 years left on his rookie deal, which is when the biggest money Mack will get in his contract. The Bears have a very affordable contract with their LT, one of the top 3 highest paid positions in the league.
If you read what I wrote and thought I was saying a single game justified my take, then there's only one fool here and it isn't me. I don't actually believe in karma, but I was saying a tough loss for flapgreen was karma for constantly baiting me back into this thread after he told me to leave and I left.
The Bears also have a long list of players locked up for the next 2 years with the entire core intact. Another thing you would know nothing about.
When you look at the current trend of how the teams are finishing, this is what the trade will break down to:
Raiders receive 2 picks in mid 20s, 1 pick in early 80s, and a 6th round pick
Bears receive Mack, 1 pick in mid 30s, 1 5th round pick.
If you break it down by the draft pick value chart, the Bears gave up the equivalent to a first round pick in the late teens for Mack, the best pass rusher in the league. Of course, you would never spend that much time researching it. Just here for the hot takes and come away looking even more foolish now.
