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***Chicago Bears Thread*** Poles is playing 5D chess! (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter flapgreen
- Start date
KCitons
Footballguy
Now that I've slept on it, I think I understand the how and the why.
1 - Bears always had Trubisky as their #1 QB and #1 overall in this class
2- Browns also had them as their #1 QB, but not their #1 overall.
3 - Bears may have tried to trade up to #1 pick, had it not been the Browns in that position. Maybe they tried, but Browns wouldn't budge.
4 - Once the Browns drafted Myles, it opened up the ability to get the #1 guy on the Bears board. They pulled the trigger.
This is why they signed Glennon to the easy out deal. If they weren't able to draft Trubisky, then they had a starting QB and they would hopefully be in position to draft a QB early next year.
With all this said, I don't blame Pace for making the move. It's his team and time will tell if he's right. My opinion is the Trubisky isn't the best player or the best QB in this class. I would have preferred to add picks and wait until next year.
I am concerned that all the QB's in this class were graded against each other and not other drafts. (or QB talent) You cannot tell me that Trubisky would have been a #2 pick in 1983. Or that their would have been discussion on who is better: Peyton Manning or Mitch Trubisky.
I hope they prove me wrong, but I'm conservative and tend to play the odds. Both Pace and Trubisky will be out of Halas hall in 4 years.
1 - Bears always had Trubisky as their #1 QB and #1 overall in this class
2- Browns also had them as their #1 QB, but not their #1 overall.
3 - Bears may have tried to trade up to #1 pick, had it not been the Browns in that position. Maybe they tried, but Browns wouldn't budge.
4 - Once the Browns drafted Myles, it opened up the ability to get the #1 guy on the Bears board. They pulled the trigger.
This is why they signed Glennon to the easy out deal. If they weren't able to draft Trubisky, then they had a starting QB and they would hopefully be in position to draft a QB early next year.
With all this said, I don't blame Pace for making the move. It's his team and time will tell if he's right. My opinion is the Trubisky isn't the best player or the best QB in this class. I would have preferred to add picks and wait until next year.
I am concerned that all the QB's in this class were graded against each other and not other drafts. (or QB talent) You cannot tell me that Trubisky would have been a #2 pick in 1983. Or that their would have been discussion on who is better: Peyton Manning or Mitch Trubisky.
I hope they prove me wrong, but I'm conservative and tend to play the odds. Both Pace and Trubisky will be out of Halas hall in 4 years.
KCitons
Footballguy
This is true. But, long term failure only hurts the fans, not the wake of GM's and coaches that are left behind.
pantherclub
Footballguy
I will bet any amount of money that Sam Darnold is 10x the player MT is.
Next years class looks to rival 1983
http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/friday-five-ranking-the-top-2018-nfl-draft-quarterback-prospects/
flapgreen
Footballguy
I get it. They could be, but Pace would also be out if he didn't try for a franchise qb at all.
need2know
Footballguy
No problem with the pick or the logic of trading stuff to get what you want. But in this situation , moving down one spot, they got fleeced. Not sure how else you can look at it. Could have stayed at 3 and got him. I don't buy another team trading up to 2 with sf for him. I really dont
KCitons
Footballguy
I disagree. We have arguably one of the best Defensive Coordinators in the league. Build there this year. The results would be obvious. Explain to owners that the QB class this year is weak and not worth wasting picks.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Hey, they could be. Will have to wait and see. I'm saying it's no sure thing, though. What if Bears had no shot at Darnold, which they wouldn't without the #1 pick. What then?
pantherclub
Footballguy
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Yeah but the QB draft class always looks better two years out. I remember when Matt Barkley was a guy supposedly worth waiting for.
BTW, aren't you the guy that was going to disown the Panthers the year the took Cam with the 1st pick? Just funny that you are on the opposite side of this debate.
KCitons
Footballguy
Winners and Losers after round 1:
John Fox's job security, Mitchell Trubisky and the entire city of Chicago: Fox is not exactly known for developing offensive talent, and now his primary job in 2017 is creating a productive atmosphere for No. 2 overall pick Mitch Trubisky. Developing an untested rookie QB and an untested starter in Glennon while trying to win games is going to be awfully difficult. The Bears also now have fewer draft picks to use to improve the team around Trubisky. Getting taken so early is a blessing for Trubisky's wallet, but he is set up for failure, along with his head coach. Having offensive coordinator Dowell Loggains and Cameron Meredith as your "No. 1 receiver" is not a recipe for success.
John Fox's job security, Mitchell Trubisky and the entire city of Chicago: Fox is not exactly known for developing offensive talent, and now his primary job in 2017 is creating a productive atmosphere for No. 2 overall pick Mitch Trubisky. Developing an untested rookie QB and an untested starter in Glennon while trying to win games is going to be awfully difficult. The Bears also now have fewer draft picks to use to improve the team around Trubisky. Getting taken so early is a blessing for Trubisky's wallet, but he is set up for failure, along with his head coach. Having offensive coordinator Dowell Loggains and Cameron Meredith as your "No. 1 receiver" is not a recipe for success.
pantherclub
Footballguy
disown was a little strong. I wasnt crazy about the cam pick and I have eaten my crow 10 fold. I hope however you are not comparing the two.
flapgreen
Footballguy
If we have one of the best DC in the league and our qb is serviceable now, what qb would we have a shot at next year? Not Darnold. Would the 2-3 QBs be guaranteed to be better than Trubisky? Would a couple of those guys have bad years? So many factors at play.
KCitons
Footballguy
You're right, we won't know that. My opinion is that Trubisky wasn't worth a #2 overall pick. (regardless of the other picks we lost)
Every year there are multiple Offensive linemen that go in the first round. This year, there was 2? Why is that? It's because the others suck and didn't deserve to be drafted that early. For some reason, GM's and coaches can't figure this out with QB's. Every draft doesn't have to have QB's taken in the top 10. This is why the failure rate is so high.
flapgreen
Footballguy
This is a ridiculous article. There will be plenty of detractors and supporters. Won't make a difference. Trubisky will sit at least his first year and somehow that's "set up for failure." These stooges were wrong about how the draft would go. Now that they look foolish with their "inside sources," the GM made a horrible pick. The difference is these "analysts" never have to answer for being wrong. GMs don't give a damn what those idiots say.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
I am just saying that two years out the future QB prospects are not under the microscope. Eventually they will find out that the one of them once stole a laptop or have a disingenuous smile. ;-)
flapgreen
Footballguy
You may be right. But 3 qbs were taken in the top 12. Apparently the GMs didn't feel the same way as fans and the analysts did. I'll go with the GMs and teams as a whole.
I haven't checked but is everyone having a meltdown on what the Chiefs gave up for Mahomes? Gave up a ton. Did everyone melt down when Philly gave up a ton for Wentz.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I think it's more that they moved one pick when SF had no intentions of taking him. I guess they were terrified someone else was going to jump them. Oh well, then just take Watson instead.
KCitons
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
I bet you are wrong. I bet he plays this year. Your team along with Glennon is just not that good so the fans will be howling for Mitch when you are sitting at 2-5.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Difference is that those teams moved up a ton, the Bears could have stayed put and had their bust, er franchise QB. If Pace did his job and kept this quiet (which we agree happened), no one is trading into the 2nd slot. 49ers played the clowns in Halas hall.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
And Cleveland's analytics folks wouldn't have let them trade their entire draft to move up from 12.I think it's more that they moved one pick when SF had no intentions of taking him. I guess they were terrified someone else was going to jump them. Oh well, then just take Watson instead.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
After having a night to sleep on it my thoughts haven't changed all that much. I'm still not happy with what the Bears gave up to get a QB this year. I still don't have an issue with getting Trubisky, it's just what it cost to get him.
I will admit that I am excited to have a top, rookie QB for once. I also like the fact that Trubisky is a pocket QB and that's one of the big reasons I liked him from the start.
The rest of this draft is going to be just as important as the first round now.
I will admit that I am excited to have a top, rookie QB for once. I also like the fact that Trubisky is a pocket QB and that's one of the big reasons I liked him from the start.
The rest of this draft is going to be just as important as the first round now.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I saw a comment about that last night. Made me laugh. If they would have lost two more games yet they could've gotten Garrett.
need2know
Footballguy
Thought Watson was the better prospect anywayI think it's more that they moved one pick when SF had no intentions of taking him. I guess they were terrified someone else was going to jump them. Oh well, then just take Watson instead.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Could be right. The team isn't that good. Hard to envision them paying Glennon what they're paying him and benching him, though. We'll see. But the article saying he's set up for failure is a joke. It's just a meaningless statement from a nobody.
flapgreen
Footballguy
That's the argument that was being made. I didn't make it. It wasn't on whether Trubisky was good enough. It was that the Bears gave up too much to get him.
pantherclub
Footballguy
The "setup for failure" comment I took as a slight to John Fox. And its true the dude has zero talent for developing an offense or an offensive player. Its not his thing, so in that regard as it stands now MT is behind the 8 ball.
pantherclub
Footballguy
I dont think he is good enough and they gave up way too much to move up one spot.
****I watched probably 80% of MT career. Nothing jumps out about him.
So Lynch made Pace think. ?You're right. It appears that the NFL GMs felt the same way because they were all fighting to move up to get Watson early.
flapgreen
Footballguy
flapgreen
Footballguy
Nope. Bears paid Tom Sawyer(Lynch) to get to paint his fence. Classic FFB move that Pace fell for.
rschroeder1
Footballguy
As usual, the biggest issue here is the systemic lack of leadership in the Bears' organization. Presumably, John Fox's job is on the line this year. "Win now" in no way corresponds with the developmental needs of Trubisky. I don't know whether he should start immediately or not (I would say not, but I'm not knowledgeable enough in this area). But that situation is antithetical to "win now."
The Bears simply do not seem to grasp that you need to give an entire regime a chance to build a team. I can easily imagine the following scenario: Fox is fired, new coach is hired but doesn't get a say on his QB, and Trubisky probably has a new OC and/or QB coach in year 2. Situation doesn't work out, Pace is fired, and now a new GM is hired with a coach already in place that he didn't choose. New dates for circus are scheduled.
The Bears simply do not seem to grasp that you need to give an entire regime a chance to build a team. I can easily imagine the following scenario: Fox is fired, new coach is hired but doesn't get a say on his QB, and Trubisky probably has a new OC and/or QB coach in year 2. Situation doesn't work out, Pace is fired, and now a new GM is hired with a coach already in place that he didn't choose. New dates for circus are scheduled.
twistd
Footballguy
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19258773/mitchell-trubisky-lack-experience-make-one-great-draft-mysteries-recent-years
Bill Barnwell wrote a terrific piece about this move and Trubisky. The other teams that took QBs in the first were playoff teams last year. KC took a developmental QB that they want to sit and learn behind Alex Smith. They have a playoff caliber defense, and pieces in place to compete for a division title again this year. They can afford to take a risk on a future QB. The Texans also have a playoff caliber defense. They have two weaknesses, the offensive line, and the QB. They selected the most NFL ready prospect in the draft at QB. They needed to address the position after the Romo thing didn't work out, and they did.
The Bears on the other hand have some pieces, they have a solid interior to the offensive line, but questions at tackle. They have a weak TE, and a weak wide receiving corp. Defensively the secondary stinks. They need help at all three levels. I believe that Fangio has worked miracles with the talent he has, but they need help.
By making this move they limit their ability to address their other needs. I think they would be better served by following the Cleveland plan, and accumulating picks to try and take as many bites at the apple as you can. Cleveland still has a need at QB, but they are busy getting pieces to improve the roster. Then when they fill the QB position that QB will have a strong line, and weapons to work with.
The other thing that must be considered here is Pace's track record so far. He has done well with some later picks, like the Howard pick. But in the first round he swung for the fences with athletic specimens in Floyd and White, and so far they look like mistakes. They may still develop, but so far, they have been a huge disappointment. Trubisky might have been the first QB on the Bears board, but it was far from a consensus. So we are putting our faith in Pace, who has not impressed with his first round picks so far.
If Trubisky turns out to be a franchise QB the cost will be forgotten. If he fails Pace and Fox will be gone and the Bears will be starting over once again. I think the odds are much higher that Trubisky is Mark Sanchez, rather than Matt Stafford. And then the cost becomes magnified because not only did you miss on QB, but you didn't draft a strong defensive player with that pick, and you gave away those thirds and a fourth to do it. And right now we have to put our faith in Pace, and the Bears organization that has a long history of failing at identifying QB talent, and an inability to develop any talent they may find. That is not comforting.
Bill Barnwell wrote a terrific piece about this move and Trubisky. The other teams that took QBs in the first were playoff teams last year. KC took a developmental QB that they want to sit and learn behind Alex Smith. They have a playoff caliber defense, and pieces in place to compete for a division title again this year. They can afford to take a risk on a future QB. The Texans also have a playoff caliber defense. They have two weaknesses, the offensive line, and the QB. They selected the most NFL ready prospect in the draft at QB. They needed to address the position after the Romo thing didn't work out, and they did.
The Bears on the other hand have some pieces, they have a solid interior to the offensive line, but questions at tackle. They have a weak TE, and a weak wide receiving corp. Defensively the secondary stinks. They need help at all three levels. I believe that Fangio has worked miracles with the talent he has, but they need help.
By making this move they limit their ability to address their other needs. I think they would be better served by following the Cleveland plan, and accumulating picks to try and take as many bites at the apple as you can. Cleveland still has a need at QB, but they are busy getting pieces to improve the roster. Then when they fill the QB position that QB will have a strong line, and weapons to work with.
The other thing that must be considered here is Pace's track record so far. He has done well with some later picks, like the Howard pick. But in the first round he swung for the fences with athletic specimens in Floyd and White, and so far they look like mistakes. They may still develop, but so far, they have been a huge disappointment. Trubisky might have been the first QB on the Bears board, but it was far from a consensus. So we are putting our faith in Pace, who has not impressed with his first round picks so far.
If Trubisky turns out to be a franchise QB the cost will be forgotten. If he fails Pace and Fox will be gone and the Bears will be starting over once again. I think the odds are much higher that Trubisky is Mark Sanchez, rather than Matt Stafford. And then the cost becomes magnified because not only did you miss on QB, but you didn't draft a strong defensive player with that pick, and you gave away those thirds and a fourth to do it. And right now we have to put our faith in Pace, and the Bears organization that has a long history of failing at identifying QB talent, and an inability to develop any talent they may find. That is not comforting.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
In the end how can we ever really know whether the Bears were bidding against themselves or somebody else. Smokescreens do not stop after a pick is made.
I wonder how things might have gone if they stood pat, selected the best defensive player on the board, and then tried to trade back into the round late to pick up Watson. If we could ever know this that may be the way to judge this trade.
Anyway, made for an interesting night.
I wonder how things might have gone if they stood pat, selected the best defensive player on the board, and then tried to trade back into the round late to pick up Watson. If we could ever know this that may be the way to judge this trade.
Anyway, made for an interesting night.
flapgreen
Footballguy
He may not be, but most people, but most people are complaining about giving up picks, not on how good Trubisky is. I'm pretty certain the Bears also watched most of his games.
flapgreen
Footballguy
No one has said having three middle round players is better than having a franchise QB.
Power Monster
The Midnight Stalker
Although a big fan of building lines, the Bears were put into a position to make this move. Picking a potential franchise QB translates into admission that its an all out rebuild. Without a franchise QB - organizations might just as well forget about a trip to the post season let alone championships and Lombardi trophies. Is this guy another McNown or Rex? Granted Rex started a Super Bowl game but that team was built on defense and STs. The Bears need a franchise QB in the most desperate way. There is risk here but Mitch seems to have the ability. I think it all falls on who will be his mentor. They are going to suck for the next few years as it is so I see giving up the picks as no big deal as they will be consensus top ten and will probably hover around 5 or less wins in 2017 and 2018. They are probably better off taking the stud TE as they need playmakers on offense with the hope that they keep building the lines with the rest of the draft.
ditka...mike ditka
Footballguy
If Pace has Mitch rated much higher than Watson, why would he just say "oh well" and take Watson instead???? If I remember correctly Manning and Ryan Leaf were thought by many to be similar and people weren't sure who should go first of the two. And thats the reason you dont just say "oh well" if you have one ranked higher.I think it's more that they moved one pick when SF had no intentions of taking him. I guess they were terrified someone else was going to jump them. Oh well, then just take Watson instead.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I'm sure they did have him ranked higher. They're just wrong and used a lot of picks in a deep draft to move up one spot when they could have had their guy at 3.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
This would be the one scenario that would make me feel better about last night's move.
If they don't gain any more picks in this draft I'm not sure what their plans will be to fill the other needs they have. I suppose they will just pick up undrafted guys.
