Jump to content
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn


whoknew

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

Alexei Navalny, the liberal

I'm not sure Navalny is really a liberal. He's anti-Putin and his treatment is criminal but it's not clear what he wants outside of free elections, investigation of corruption and the ability to protest. Good luck figuring it out after that, he may be a nationalist himself.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  

No doubt that's why she was arrested and has apparently pled guilty.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jomar said:

Am I correct in remembering that the only publicly known conversations between someone associated with the Trump campaign/transition and a high level Russian "agent" was when Mike Flynn spoke with Sergei Kislyak regarding sanctions during the transition and when Jeff Sessions spoke with Kislyak at his senatorial office in Septmeber of 2016? 

You're missing a few - this may help.  Forgot about the ones at the Mayflower hotel. And Plenty of Manafort meetings. Page in Russia.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/11/13/all-of-the-known-times-the-trump-campaign-met-with-russians/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.80a4719ec092

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  

Did you read the affidavit

She repeatedly had contacts with Russian government officials about establishing influence among US politicians to further Russia's agenda.  I'm no expert, but I think that goes beyond being a gun industry lobbyist, and even if that's all she really was it's still a crime to act in that capacity and not register with the AG.  

What's the tally on broken laws that Trump bootlickers have justified? It's only wire fraud, tax evasion and money laundering.  Everyone does it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jomar said:

If Donald Trump and his campaign were working in coordination with the Russians, why would he have the need to go out in public, in front of the media and ask the Russians to find Hillary's 33,000 missing e-mails?

Because he knew about the emails and he couldn't keep a secret - just like a little kid he had to blurt it out in a really haha way. "Guess what I know?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

Maria Butina lobbies for gun rights and is practically the only candidate running a good election campaign

Just curious, what was she running for when he said this?

- eta - nm here it is:

Quote

In 2010, Butina graduated from the Communications, Philology, and Political Science Department at Altai State University and promptly enrolled in their graduate school. While still a student, she became a member of the Altai Territory’s Civic Chamber.

- I mean good lord it was a local race in a territory crammed between Novosibirsk and Kazakhstan in 2014, seems very (ir)relevant.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  

I guess that depends what you mean by spy.  She was working to meet influential government and political figures, primarily older men, change their minds about Russian interests, and arrange meetings between them and Russian counterparts. 

If the CIA did that, what would you call the person doing it?

  • Thinking 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Dickies said:

She repeatedly had contacts with Russian government officials about establishing influence among US politicians to further Russia's agenda.  I'm no expert, but I think that goes beyond being a gun industry lobbyist, and even if that's all she really was it's still a crime to act in that capacity and not register with the AG.  

That's what lobbying is though, when you explain it in the most patronizing and terse way possible.  They network with people ("establish influence") to achieve their political aims ("further ______'s agenda").  So fine her, or deport her even.  But don't lock her up in solitary confinement for several months because she didn't properly inform the AG of what she was doing.  Part of the problem with overzealous prosecution is ascribing tall tale crimes and malicious intent to otherwise routine activities that happen literally all of the time in Washington, and not always for a bad reason.  

Look I'm not here to defend the practice of lobbying or something.  But this character assassination and neoMcCarthyist take on Butina just seems really uncalled for and draconian to me.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, ren hoek said:

That's what lobbying is though, when you explain it in the most patronizing and terse way possible.  They network with people ("establish influence") to achieve their political aims ("further ______'s agenda").  So fine her, or deport her even.  But don't lock her up in solitary confinement for several months because she didn't properly inform the AG of what she was doing.  Part of the problem with overzealous prosecution is ascribing tall tale crimes and malicious intent to otherwise routine activities that happen literally all of the time in Washington, and not always for a bad reason.  

Look I'm not here to defend the practice of lobbying or something.  But this character assassination and neoMcCarthyist take on Butina just seems really uncalled for and draconian to me.  

Hey, if you just want to say she’s a foreign lobbyist who failed to register under the law while trying to influence American politicians including in a romantic relationship and the Republican Party I’m fine with that kind of foreign agent.  Also a crime. Also going to lead to prison and deportation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ignoramus said:

Pfft... I guess if you call the Russian Ambassador to the United States, a Deputy Prime Minister, three people with senior positions in the White House with the last name Trump, and the Attorney General of the United States "high level". Seems a bit of a reach though.

They were all just coffee boys/girls

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I guess that depends what you mean by spy.  She was working to meet influential government and political figures, primarily older men, change their minds about Russian interests, and arrange meetings between them and Russian counterparts. 

If the CIA did that, what would you call the person doing it?

Unfortunately, most of the figures who decide policy happen to be older men.  It would really depend on what the agency was lobbying on behalf of.  Is it to install a torture facility in the third world or to denuclearize the planet?  How insidious it is really depends on the nature of the lobbying imo.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ren hoek said:

That's what lobbying is though, when you explain it in the most patronizing and terse way possible.  They network with people ("establish influence") to achieve their political aims ("further ______'s agenda").  So fine her, or deport her even.  But don't lock her up in solitary confinement for several months because she didn't properly inform the AG of what she was doing.  Part of the problem with overzealous prosecution is ascribing tall tale crimes and malicious intent to otherwise routine activities that happen literally all of the time in Washington, and not always for a bad reason.  

Look I'm not here to defend the practice of lobbying or something.  But this character assassination and neoMcCarthyist take on Butina just seems really uncalled for and draconian to me.  

I've heard the same thing in Louisiana. Seriously, 'lobbying without a license and carrying cash around and stashing in kitchen appliances isn't illegal.'

It's corruption, Ren. It's how it's done, by evading notice of law enforcement and breaking the regulations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ren hoek said:

Unfortunately, most of the figures who decide policy happen to be older men.  It would really depend on what the agency was lobbying on behalf of.  Is it to install a torture facility in the third world or to denuclearize the planet?  How insidious it is really depends on the nature of the lobbying imo.  

See, that's where the problem lies.   It's clearly illegal.   We don't need to grade how insidious it is.  Why does the right insist on justifying these crimes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

That's what lobbying is though, when you explain it in the most patronizing and terse way possible.  They network with people ("establish influence") to achieve their political aims ("further ______'s agenda").  So fine her, or deport her even.  But don't lock her up in solitary confinement for several months because she didn't properly inform the AG of what she was doing.  Part of the problem with overzealous prosecution is ascribing tall tale crimes and malicious intent to otherwise routine activities that happen literally all of the time in Washington, and not always for a bad reason.  

Look I'm not here to defend the practice of lobbying or something.  But this character assassination and neoMcCarthyist take on Butina just seems really uncalled for and draconian to me.  

And what exactly do you think spies do?  In the most patronizing and terse way possible?

Hint: They don't walk into government buildings with mini cameras and snap covert pictures of blueprints to missile systems anymore.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

Unfortunately, most of the figures who decide policy happen to be older men.  It would really depend on what the agency was lobbying on behalf of.  Is it to install a torture facility in the third world or to denuclearize the planet?  How insidious it is really depends on the nature of the lobbying imo.  

I didn’t ask how insidious it is, I asked the job title.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even Putin in his state media admits more about Butina than Ren:

Butina might, in fact, have had some links to the Russian Federation Council, the upper house of the Russian parliament, Putin admitted, adding that she could have actually worked with some officials there. Still that does not justify the US legal action against her, he added.

https://www.rt.com/news/446222-putin-butina-ties-intelligence/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

And what exactly do you think spies do?  In the most patronizing and terse way possible?

Hint: They don't walk into government buildings with mini cameras and snap covert pictures of blueprints to missile systems anymore.

I don't know.  Espionage?  I don't usually associate spycraft with gun rights advocacy and prayer breakfasts. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I didn’t ask how insidious it is, I asked the job title.  

If they were doing what Butina apparently did, I'd call that person a lobbyist.  If they were running reconnaissance or trying to weaponize intelligence in some way, I'd call them spies.  It really hinges on the nature of the work they're doing, which is why I brought it up.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Even Putin in his state media admits more about Butina than Ren:

Butina might, in fact, have had some links to the Russian Federation Council, the upper house of the Russian parliament, Putin admitted, adding that she could have actually worked with some officials there. Still that does not justify the US legal action against her, he added.

https://www.rt.com/news/446222-putin-butina-ties-intelligence/

The Russian Federation Council.  Where do I know that name?

Oh, right, a bunch of Republican lawmakers flew to Moscow to meet with them in July.

Kewl. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ren hoek said:

I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist... There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  

I'm curious what you're basis for any of these claims is and how much of the evidence you've reviewed. Or is this just hope and wild speculation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ren hoek said:

If they were doing what Butina apparently did, I'd call that person a lobbyist.  If they were running reconnaissance or trying to weaponize intelligence in some way, I'd call them spies.  It really hinges on the nature of the work they're doing, which is why I brought it up.  

Okay.  Unregistered foreign lobbyists are criminals in this country.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the most amazing things is the DOJ charging people with no real crimes, citing not actual statutes, defendants pleading guilty to them, their attorneys letting them, and judges just saying that’s great, in cases involving victim billionaires, mega national lobbying organizations, millionaire corporate attorneys, and foreign ministries. Maybe let the judge know it’s not a real crime.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

One of the most amazing things is the DOJ charging people with no real crimes, citing not actual statutes, defendants pleading guilty to them, their attorneys letting them, and judges just saying that’s great, in cases involving victim billionaires, mega national lobbying organizations, millionaire corporate attorneys, and foreign ministries. Maybe let the judge know it’s not a real crime.

But Ren said she's just a lobbyist. In a patronizing and terse way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ren hoek said:

I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  

Peel the onion, and you'll find the route.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, [scooter] said:

1. James Comey was registered Republican for most of his adult life and currently identifies as an independent, not a "fellow Democrat".

2. James Comey was a Republican when he was chosen to head the FBI.

3. by definition, Comey is nonpartisan.

 

That's the old way of thought.  Now if you're against Trump you are a "liberal" or a "democrat".  It doesn't matter if you hold the conservative (traditional sense of the word here) ideas around deficits.  You don't like that Trump is blowing them up?  You're a democrat/liberal.  It's all over these threads and being perpetuated by what used to be relatively normal posters who now appear to be off the rails.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

I don't know.  Espionage?  I don't usually associate spycraft with gun rights advocacy and prayer breakfasts. 

You don't see the value in infiltrating bodies that offer significant exposure and access to a political party? I'm pretty confident I'm not interacting with anyone that would hand me a mic to ask a presidential candidate for his views on Russian sanctions.

Also, I'm curious on your angle that she's a lobbyist. For whom? A Russian agent has an interest in gun rights for Americans? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there's some inordinate crime against the US she committed that wouldn't have otherwise been permissible had she simply notified the AG of it,  that warrants being held in solitary confinement and having her life destroyed in Western media, as if Jeff Sessions was a reliable last line of defense against inappropriate lobbying in this country, I'd sure love to know what it was.  Just the latest casualty in order that people may continue holding on to a conspiracy theory.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Bucky86 said:
6 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

If there's some inordinate crime against the US she committed that wouldn't have otherwise been permissible had she simply notified the AG of it,  that warrants being held in solitary confinement and having her life destroyed in Western media, as if Jeff Sessions was a reliable last line of defense against inappropriate lobbying in this country, I'd sure love to know what it was.  Just the latest casualty in order that people may continue holding on to a conspiracy theory.  

:yawn:  

Back to IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY.

Ren is right though.  There is a conspiracy here.  Unfortunately, for him, Butina is the one that just plead guilty to a conspiracy :

 

The plea agreement states that Butina "agreed and conspired, with a Russian government official ('Russian Official') and at least one other person, for Butina to act in the United States under the direction of Russian Official without prior notification to the Attorney General," according to ABC and CNN.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/12/11/maria-butina-spy-plea-deal-conspiracy/2274643002/

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

If there's some inordinate crime against the US she committed that wouldn't have otherwise been permissible had she simply notified the AG of it,  that warrants being held in solitary confinement and having her life destroyed in Western media, as if Jeff Sessions was a reliable last line of defense against inappropriate lobbying in this country, I'd sure love to know what it was.  Just the latest casualty in order that people may continue holding on to a conspiracy theory.  

Hate to be the wet blanket on a good rant, but she plead guilty to conspiracy :oldunsure: 

Even by the loosist of definitions it can't really be considered a theory in this context any longer. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

And what exactly do you think spies do?  In the most patronizing and terse way possible?

Hint: They don't walk into government buildings with mini cameras and snap covert pictures of blueprints to missile systems anymore.

Drink heavily, bang hot chicks. 

  • Thinking 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Ren is right though.  There is a conspiracy here.  Unfortunately, for him, Butina is the one that just plead guilty to a conspiracy :

 

The plea agreement states that Butina "agreed and conspired, with a Russian government official ('Russian Official') and at least one other person, for Butina to act in the United States under the direction of Russian Official without prior notification to the Attorney General," according to ABC and CNN.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/12/11/maria-butina-spy-plea-deal-conspiracy/2274643002/

A conspiracy to do what?  What did she actually do that was wrong?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember when Republicans acted concerned about enforcing law and order?  Seems they only care about crimes if they are committed by minorities.

Defrauding US taxpayers of $400M+ would have toppled any other administration in the history of the country, but it just gets buried in an endless pile of scandals.  WTF qualifies as a crime to these people?  A former potential client of mine (who I chose not to work with because he seemed sketchy) is sitting in jail for 20 years after being convicted of wire fraud and money laundering.  The money involved in his case was in the low single digit millions.  Guys like Manafort are surely moving way bigger sums of money and dealing with shadier characters, but we're concerned about "ruining lives".  This from the guy who has built an empire on scamming people, whether it's high-end condo purchasers or lower-middle class folks thinking they are attending a university to learn about real estate.  Sickening.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, ren hoek said:
27 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Ren is right though.  There is a conspiracy here.  Unfortunately, for him, Butina is the one that just plead guilty to a conspiracy :

 

The plea agreement states that Butina "agreed and conspired, with a Russian government official ('Russian Official') and at least one other person, for Butina to act in the United States under the direction of Russian Official without prior notification to the Attorney General," according to ABC and CNN.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/12/11/maria-butina-spy-plea-deal-conspiracy/2274643002/

A conspiracy to do what?  What did she actually do that was wrong?  

Ibolded it this time

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ren hoek said:

I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  

How do you know that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
  • Create New...