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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (8 Viewers)

“Nobody got killed, nobody got robbed… This was not a big crime,” Giuliani told The Daily Beast on Wednesday. He added, sardonically, “I think in two weeks they’ll start with parking tickets that haven’t been paid.”
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For those who are unfamiliar with Giuliani's time as mayor of NYC, one of his biggest moves was implementing what's known as "broken windows" policing, where you focus on busting people for petty crimes like vandalism and jumping subway turnstiles based on the notion that they create an atmosphere of lawlessness.  This was a popular policy among conservatives.

If any Republicans/conservatives want to know why people often assume they are racist, here's a good place to start.  Giuliani is just one of many Republicans who has or will argue that the crimes of Trump and his campaign/administration are no big deal ("process crimes" is another buzzword they're focusing on).  If you favor arresting poor, disproportionately black and Hispanic people for stuff like jumping subway turnstiles but dismiss felonies committed by rich, powerful white guys as no big deal ...

 
apalmer said:
Especially when he does so to point out that Butina's actions only look bad to those who hold the "outdated" view that Russia is an enemy. 
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I just want to know what she actually did that was wrong.  A “conspiracy” to “influence” the GOP?  So what?  Influence them to do what?  

https://youtu.be/UXEmrmpL0iM

Everything she did would have been legal had she notified the AG about her activities.  She wasn’t deceptive about who she was- gun rights advocate, pursuing a graduate degree, wanted positive relations between RU/US.  If she was worried about being implicated in some huge collusion scheme, she had more than a year to get out of the country.   She’d been with Erickson for 5 years.  

People are desperate to conflate this with the Russian hacking and Wikileaks release- a serious charge leveled against the Trump campaign that isn’t supported by the facts at all- because they think it vindicates their conspiracy theory.  But there’s no indication this had anything at all to do with that.  

 
ren hoek said:
I just want to know what she actually did that was wrong.  A “conspiracy” to “influence” the GOP?  So what?  Influence them to do what?  

https://youtu.be/UXEmrmpL0iM

Everything she did would have been legal had she notified the AG about her activities.  She wasn’t deceptive about who she was- gun rights advocate, pursuing a graduate degree, wanted positive relations between RU/US.  If she was worried about being implicated in some huge collusion scheme, she had more than a year to get out of the country.   She’d been with Erickson for 5 years.  

People are desperate to conflate this with the Russian hacking and Wikileaks release- a serious charge leveled against the Trump campaign that isn’t supported by the facts at all- because they think it vindicates their conspiracy theory.  But there’s no indication this had anything at all to do with that.  
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You may have a point about WL (though I'm not sure I see people making that connection); the only strain I see in common is Thomas Barrack.

However in general you have the wrong statute. This is the same law that the Anna Chapman spy ring got busted for, and they were doing more than influence peddling.

 
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ren hoek said:
I just want to know what she actually did that was wrong.  A “conspiracy” to “influence” the GOP?  So what?  Influence them to do what?  

https://youtu.be/UXEmrmpL0iM

Everything she did would have been legal had she notified the AG about her activities.  She wasn’t deceptive about who she was- gun rights advocate, pursuing a graduate degree, wanted positive relations between RU/US.  If she was worried about being implicated in some huge collusion scheme, she had more than a year to get out of the country.   She’d been with Erickson for 5 years.  

People are desperate to conflate this with the Russian hacking and Wikileaks release- a serious charge leveled against the Trump campaign that isn’t supported by the facts at all- because they think it vindicates their conspiracy theory.  But there’s no indication this had anything at all to do with that.  
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Nobody's desperate for anything at this point except the people cutting plea deals to avoid longer prison sentences.  

 
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Ren, or any, sec. 951 is a variation on espionage, it means working for a foreign power without actually being a literal 007 "spy". Butina was not FSB/GRU/SVR but she did work on their behalf. So did Erickson. So Butina could totally be registered (not sure if that's possible but let's say she had registered as a lobbyist) she could still get pinned under sec. 951. This isn't a "paper" crime. For example:

But 951 is different. It’s a rare charge, and the Justice Department’s inspector general wrote in 2016 that prosecutors in its elite National Security Division describe it as “espionage-lite.”

“[A] Section 951 case generally involves espionage-like or clandestine behavior or an otherwise provable connection to an intelligence service, or information-gathering or procurement-type activity on behalf of a foreign government,” the inspector general wrote.

Prosecutors in the D.C. U.S. attorney’s office charged Butina with violating Section 951.
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If anyone is telling you this is Fara (NFL made that mistake above too oddly...) they are not being straight with you.

 
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squistion said:
If she did nothing wrong, then why did she plead guilty to engaging in a conspiracy and why would a judge accept a guilty plea for something that wasn't a crime?
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"Because the judge is a Trump-hater appointed by Obama and our entire IC is corrupt and also hate Trump.  Everyone just hates Trump and they're pinning these ridiculous charges on an innocent Russian spy who only wanted a better relationship between our countries."

Doesn't that pretty much explain all of the charges so far?

 
State TV doesn't sound unconcerned...

Julia Davis‏ @JuliaDavisNews

Russian media labels #Butina’s plea “The Deal with the Devil: Butina Gives Up #Russia to America.”

 
not sure where to put this....

Sarah Kendzior‏Verified account @sarahkendzior

The NRA gave more money to Missouri Senator-elect Josh Hawley than to any other candidate. Hawley is already being investigated for dark money and illegal activity; the Butina case is an impetus to trace NRA money and expose the full extent of corruption

We discussed Missouri's role as the dark money capital of the US on the latest @gaslitnation:

  • At 15:00 I discuss Nick Ayers: "Missouri is the dark money capital of the US. We have no limits and no transparency, and that attracts people like Ayers. Ayers was indicted Gov Eric Greitens' advisor and was involved in campaign finance violations..."


Worth noting:

* Pence chose Hawley and got the GOP behind him

* Pence was tight with fellow NRA dirty money recipient Eric Greitens, who was indicted and resigned as MO gov

* Pence's chief of staff, Nick Ayers, is implicated in Greiten probe

* Pence was chosen for VP by Manafort

 
guys, you have to remember one thing about Ren: he judges innocence/guilt on the basis of his own moral code.  If he thinks something should be a crime, he will shout from the rooftops that anyone the thinks violated his version of that crime should be punished.  See his comments on GWB/Obama on war crimes, drone strikes, etc.  Note that the Iraq invasion was voted upon and approved by Congress so it was legal by the letter of US law.

On the other side of the coin, if Ren doesn't think a law is important, than anyone violating it is being railroaded/scape-goated...i.e. failing to register as a foreign agent or campaign finance violations are really just matters of paper work, so these should be a simple slap on the wrist.

For our lawyerguys - legally speaking, do we get to pick and choose what laws we follow on the basis of our own personal moral code? 

 
Bucky86 said:
How do you know? What do their finances look like without Russian money flowing into it? Honest question.
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The NRA won’t be destroyed because it represents the viewpoint of a significant vocal minority of Americans who seek to resist any restriction on their rights to own firearms. There might be some people who get fired, and a big scandal, but the organization itself won’t disappear. 

 
Zoe Tillman‏Verified account @ZoeTillman

The DC Circuit is about to hear arguments in the sealed grand jury matter. They've sealed not only the courtroom, but the whole floor, so we've been moved away. Haven't recognized anyone going in earlier as being connected to Mueller's office, now we won't be able to see

7:32 AM - 14 Dec 2018

 
moleculo said:
guys, you have to remember one thing about Ren: he judges innocence/guilt on the basis of his own moral code.  If he thinks something should be a crime, he will shout from the rooftops that anyone the thinks violated his version of that crime should be punished.  See his comments on GWB/Obama on war crimes, drone strikes, etc.  Note that the Iraq invasion was voted upon and approved by Congress so it was legal by the letter of US law.
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I'm not asking Ren or anyone to change their values, I'm just asking them to get their facts right. 

 
the plot is thickening....

Kyle Griffin‏Verified account @kylegriffin1

In an interview with investigators a year ago, Trump ally Tom Barrack said that Paul Manafort seemed to view a pro-Trump super PAC as an arm of the campaign, despite laws meant to prevent such coordination, a person familiar with the interview tells NYT.

The Hoarse Whisperer‏ @HoarseWisperer

Note: Mueller's submission to the court last week detailed Manafort lying about a payment from the pro-Trump super-PAC referenced below. It seemed like a weird call out because it was for only $125k and added little to the total corruption story at first blush. However... 1/

As I've been saying ad infinitum, there are no accidental inclusions in Mueller filings. There are no unnecessary or unimportant details. It's like an episode of Law & Order. If they zoom in on the paperweight on the desk, it's gonna factor in around minute forty-eight. 2/

It would seem that Mueller is homing in on illegal shifting of money to-and-from Super PACs by the Trump Campaign. If the campaign was using money held in PACs as campaign funds, every act is a campaign finance violation. Manafort was not paid to work on the campaign. 3/

If the campaign coordinated him being paid through a PAC instead, for example, that likely constitutes illegal coordination, an illegal campaign contributions, and a failure to report. Ultimately, we seemed headed toward a debunking of the biggest myth of the Trump Campaign. 4/

Trump endlessly bragged about having spent a tiny pittance of what Clinton did... He boasted that his personal prowess and social media chops were more powerful than her campaign spending. It now appears his campaign illegally directed major spending through an opaque web. 5/

If Mueller truly has the goods - and it's safe to assume he does - to prove: 1) The Trump Campaign directed contributions to parties like the NRA and this super PAC 2) It directed how that money was spent 3) It did both to evade the law ...A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE are doomed. 6/

If Mueller effectively proves that these groups essentially functioned as off-balance-sheet proxies for the campaign itself, that opens anyone engaged in that conspiracy to liability, it would seem. It also subjects the donations those proxies accepted to greater scrutiny. 7/

Specifically, if Mueller can prove (and it's safe to bet he can) that the Trump Campaign knowingly directed foreign donations to 3rd party groups and then directed the use of that money, there are a whole lot of people who are going to face indictment on both sides. 8/

Given that Mueller already knew Manafort was lying about a payment he received from a PAC, if I was on the money trail at the NRA, a PAC, a media agency or within the camp., I'd be lawyering up or calling Mueller to chat. Their only salvation will be flipping on the bosses. 9/9

This totally makes sense that Trump would do something like this...he apparently did the same thing with the Trump Foundation, Trump Org, various trusts....they were all treated at his pots of money that he shifted around between the entities....seems like he did the same exact thing here...Cohen probably made him do it I'm guessing....

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
I'm not asking Ren or anyone to change their values, I'm just asking them to get their facts right.  
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I'm not either, but I would like him to debate based on the letter of the law , not what he thinks the law should be.

Acting as an illegal foreign agent is not just a simple paper work thing.  She was legitimately trying to influence our politics at the behest of another foreign power.   If you want to do that, it's important that you disclose who you are working for.

 
Banger said:
Zoe Tillman‏Verified account @ZoeTillman

The DC Circuit is about to hear arguments in the sealed grand jury matter. They've sealed not only the courtroom, but the whole floor, so we've been moved away. Haven't recognized anyone going in earlier as being connected to Mueller's office, now we won't be able to see

7:32 AM - 14 Dec 2018
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her speculation is that a subpoena for Mike Pence that he's been fighting since August.... :devil:

Louise Mensch‏Verified account @LouiseMensch

I'll take "Who is @Mike_Pence?" for 3000 rubles, please Alex

It's to call @Mike_Pence as a witness. He doesn't think he should have to. Bobby Three disagrees.

Zoe Tillman‏Verified account @ZoeTillman

Here's what we know: The underlying grand jury matter was filed in August and there was a judgment in early October (the docket is otherwise completely sealed)

 
Banger said:
the plot is thickening....

Kyle Griffin‏Verified account @kylegriffin1

In an interview with investigators a year ago, Trump ally Tom Barrack said that Paul Manafort seemed to view a pro-Trump super PAC as an arm of the campaign, despite laws meant to prevent such coordination, a person familiar with the interview tells NYT.

The Hoarse Whisperer‏ @HoarseWisperer

Note: Mueller's submission to the court last week detailed Manafort lying about a payment from the pro-Trump super-PAC referenced below. It seemed like a weird call out because it was for only $125k and added little to the total corruption story at first blush. However... 1/

As I've been saying ad infinitum, there are no accidental inclusions in Mueller filings. There are no unnecessary or unimportant details. It's like an episode of Law & Order. If they zoom in on the paperweight on the desk, it's gonna factor in around minute forty-eight. 2/

It would seem that Mueller is homing in on illegal shifting of money to-and-from Super PACs by the Trump Campaign. If the campaign was using money held in PACs as campaign funds, every act is a campaign finance violation. Manafort was not paid to work on the campaign. 3/

If the campaign coordinated him being paid through a PAC instead, for example, that likely constitutes illegal coordination, an illegal campaign contributions, and a failure to report. Ultimately, we seemed headed toward a debunking of the biggest myth of the Trump Campaign. 4/

Trump endlessly bragged about having spent a tiny pittance of what Clinton did... He boasted that his personal prowess and social media chops were more powerful than her campaign spending. It now appears his campaign illegally directed major spending through an opaque web. 5/

If Mueller truly has the goods - and it's safe to assume he does - to prove: 1) The Trump Campaign directed contributions to parties like the NRA and this super PAC 2) It directed how that money was spent 3) It did both to evade the law ...A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE are doomed. 6/

If Mueller effectively proves that these groups essentially functioned as off-balance-sheet proxies for the campaign itself, that opens anyone engaged in that conspiracy to liability, it would seem. It also subjects the donations those proxies accepted to greater scrutiny. 7/

Specifically, if Mueller can prove (and it's safe to bet he can) that the Trump Campaign knowingly directed foreign donations to 3rd party groups and then directed the use of that money, there are a whole lot of people who are going to face indictment on both sides. 8/

Given that Mueller already knew Manafort was lying about a payment he received from a PAC, if I was on the money trail at the NRA, a PAC, a media agency or within the camp., I'd be lawyering up or calling Mueller to chat. Their only salvation will be flipping on the bosses. 9/9

This totally makes sense that Trump would do something like this...he apparently did the same thing with the Trump Foundation, Trump Org, various trusts....they were all treated at his pots of money that he shifted around between the entities....seems like he did the same exact thing here...Cohen probably made him do it I'm guessing....
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this is pretty good.  It does tie Butina in nicely within the scope of the OSC investigation...has Mueller been involved with the Butina case? 

 
moleculo said:
this is pretty good.  It does tie Butina in nicely within the scope of the OSC investigation...has Mueller been involved with the Butina case? 
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I'm not sure if it was referred by Mueller or not.  I haven't read that it was but who knows....some of these things may have been farmed out to different agencies to insulate the investigations to proceed in the event he were fired or shut down somehow.  

 
Banger said:
I'm not sure if it was referred by Mueller or not.  I haven't read that it was but who knows....some of these things may have been farmed out to different agencies to insulate the investigations to proceed in the event he were fired or shut down somehow.  
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They were saying last night the Butina case no involvement whatsoever with Mueller’s team. The SC has limits of what they’re supposed to pursue, right? Whereas the US Attorneys working this case can go anywhere the evidence leads them (I’m parroting what I heard, will try to find a link supporting that.)

 
The Cohen case was referred by Mueller to SDNY because of jurisdiction. The 12 Russians Mueller indicted were handed off because his team doesn’t have the bandwidth to prosecute a complex case & continue their current investigations. Butina case first developed 2-3 years, before the SC was named.

 
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NFL2DF said:
ren hoek said:
Here the NYT lays out Butina’s sinister plot to establish a good relationship with the United States.  
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ren deserves a lot of credit for having the balls to post in this place
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quite frankly after the sting of completely make believe stuff you have posted you deserve a little credit for continuing to post here as well take that to the bank brohans 

 
moleculo said:
guys, you have to remember one thing about Ren: he judges innocence/guilt on the basis of his own moral code.  If he thinks something should be a crime, he will shout from the rooftops that anyone the thinks violated his version of that crime should be punished.  See his comments on GWB/Obama on war crimes, drone strikes, etc.  Note that the Iraq invasion was voted upon and approved by Congress so it was legal by the letter of US law.

On the other side of the coin, if Ren doesn't think a law is important, than anyone violating it is being railroaded/scape-goated...i.e. failing to register as a foreign agent or campaign finance violations are really just matters of paper work, so these should be a simple slap on the wrist.

For our lawyerguys - legally speaking, do we get to pick and choose what laws we follow on the basis of our own personal moral code? 
Click to expand...
a lot of people just call that selective ethics take that to the bank brohans 

 
Banger said:
Banger said:
Zoe Tillman‏Verified account @ZoeTillman

The DC Circuit is about to hear arguments in the sealed grand jury matter. They've sealed not only the courtroom, but the whole floor, so we've been moved away. Haven't recognized anyone going in earlier as being connected to Mueller's office, now we won't be able to see

7:32 AM - 14 Dec 2018
Click to expand...
her speculation is that a subpoena for Mike Pence that he's been fighting since August.... :devil:

Louise Mensch‏Verified account @LouiseMensch

I'll take "Who is @Mike_Pence?" for 3000 rubles, please Alex

It's to call @Mike_Pence as a witness. He doesn't think he should have to. Bobby Three disagrees.

Zoe Tillman‏Verified account @ZoeTillman

Here's what we know: The underlying grand jury matter was filed in August and there was a judgment in early October (the docket is otherwise completely sealed)
Click to expand...
so this mensch seems like she is totally off her rocker but stuff she says keeps coming true and it makes me question the reality i see around me take that to the bank bromigo

 
Banger said:
her speculation is that a subpoena for Mike Pence that he's been fighting since August.... :devil:

Louise Mensch‏Verified account @LouiseMensch

I'll take "Who is @Mike_Pence?" for 3000 rubles, please Alex

It's to call @Mike_Pence as a witness. He doesn't think he should have to. Bobby Three disagrees.

Zoe Tillman‏Verified account @ZoeTillman

Here's what we know: The underlying grand jury matter was filed in August and there was a judgment in early October (the docket is otherwise completely sealed)
Click to expand...
I wonder if he was laying the groundwork for his "I don't know, I slept through it all." defense the other day.  

 
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Kenneth P. Vogel‏Verified account @kenvogel

ALSO OF INTEREST TO PROSECUTORS: After MANAFORT was fired from the TRUMP campaign, TOM BARRACK worked to help him rebuild his finances. The pair took a Mediterranean cruise, during which they met Qatari billionaire Hamad bin Jassim bin Jaber Al Thani.

this is completely my speculation...Barrack was head of the inaugural committee that's now being investigated for foreign money....Barrack tries to get Manafort some money...so does the Qatari billionaire feed money to a Super PAC who feeds it to Manafort (Mueller alluded to Manafort lying about receiving $125k from a Trump Super PAC in his most recent filing...) ....hhmmmmm......So how long until Barrack (one of Trump's closest supporters) flips?

 
SWC said:
so this mensch seems like she is totally off her rocker but stuff she says keeps coming true and it makes me question the reality i see around me take that to the bank bromigo
Click to expand...
ya, and i usually don't post most of her stuff but she is connected somehow and does get and post information that usually ends up being true months and months later.

 
Banger said:
SWC said:
so this mensch seems like she is totally off her rocker but stuff she says keeps coming true and it makes me question the reality i see around me take that to the bank bromigo
Click to expand...
ya, and i usually don't post most of her stuff but she is connected somehow and does get and post information that usually ends up being true months and months later.
Click to expand...
i agree and that always makes me go hmmm like that song back in the 80s and if i am being honest i did not really like that song but hey sometimes things just pop in to your head and you have to go with them because not every song that gets stuck in your head is going to be brandy by looking glass life just does not work like that take that to the bank brohans 

 
Banger said:
Kenneth P. Vogel‏Verified account @kenvogel

ALSO OF INTEREST TO PROSECUTORS: After MANAFORT was fired from the TRUMP campaign, TOM BARRACK worked to help him rebuild his finances. The pair took a Mediterranean cruise, during which they met Qatari billionaire Hamad bin Jassim bin Jaber Al Thani.

this is completely my speculation...Barrack was head of the inaugural committee that's now being investigated for foreign money....Barrack tries to get Manafort some money...so does the Qatari billionaire feed money to a Super PAC who feeds it to Manafort (Mueller alluded to Manafort lying about receiving $125k from a Trump Super PAC in his most recent filing...) ....hhmmmmm......So how long until Barrack (one of Trump's closest supporters) flips?
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Trump was right, this was all Barrack Obama's fault

 
Mr. Ham said:
Story about a month ago made a case that Mueller had likely subpoenaed the President to the grand jury, and it ha bee granted but appealed.  About now is when it was said it would be decided.  
Click to expand...
Whoever it is, it’s a huge deal. They don’t go to this length of secrecy for just anyone. Trump, Pence or the family are the only ones that make sense and even the family would be surprising. It’s a big fish.

 
SWC said:
so this mensch seems like she is totally off her rocker but stuff she says keeps coming true and it makes me question the reality i see around me take that to the bank bromigo
Click to expand...
You have a sort through a lot of garbage to get to her good information. I do believe that she has connections in the intelligence community that has fed her a lot of info. She then takes that raw intelligence and spins it into her stories that often have bad speculation in them.

 
SWC said:
so this mensch seems like she is totally off her rocker but stuff she says keeps coming true and it makes me question the reality i see around me take that to the bank bromigo
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's weird.  It's like she has good information but her theories about what it means are crazy, so it takes forever but she ends up getting proven right about her raw information.

I'm sure someone would have mentioned that earlier if that were really the case, though.

 
Henry Ford said:
Yeah, it's weird.  It's like she has good information but her theories about what it means are crazy, so it takes forever but she ends up getting proven right about her raw information.

I'm sure someone would have mentioned that earlier if that were really the case, though.
Click to expand...
crazy like a fox

 
David Corn‏Verified account @DavidCornDC

EXCLUSIVE: Russian agent Maria Butina claimed she had a "signed cooperation agreement" with the NRA https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/12/maria-butina-nra-signed-cooperation-agreement-2013-israel/ … via @MotherJones

 
Banger said:
David Corn‏Verified account @DavidCornDC

EXCLUSIVE: Russian agent Maria Butina claimed she had a "signed cooperation agreement" with the NRA https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/12/maria-butina-nra-signed-cooperation-agreement-2013-israel/ … via @MotherJones
Click to expand...
whoa. NRA be stupid

 
Seth Abramson‏Verified account @SethAbramson 1h1 hour ago

UNDER CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION:

  • TRUMP
  • TRUMP Jr.
  • TRUMP Organization
  • TRUMP Foundation
  • TRUMP Campaign
  • TRUMP NatSec Advisory Committee
  • TRUMP Shadow NatSec Advisors
  • TRUMP Transition
  • TRUMP Inaugural Committee
  • TRUMP Administration
  • TRUMP Allies (e.g., MBS)
CONVICTED:

  • TRUMP Campaign Manager (Manafort)
  • TRUMP Campaign Manager Associate (Kilimnik)
  • TRUMP Deputy Campaign Manager (Gates)
  • TRUMP Deputy Campaign Manager Associate (van der Swaan)
  • TRUMP Lawyer (Cohen)
  • TRUMP NSA (Flynn) TRUMP NatSec Adviser (Papadopoulos)
CRIMES COLLUSION CAN LEAD TO:

  • Conspiracy to Commit Election Fraud
  • Conspiracy to Defraud US
  • Aiding/Abetting Computer Crimes
  • Bribery
  • Money Laundering
  • Illegal Solicitation of Donations
  • Obstruction
  • Witness Tampering
  • Making False Statements
  • FARA Crimes
COUNTRIES TRUMPS ILLEGALLY COLLUDED WITH PRE-ELECTION:

  • RUSSIA
  • SAUDI ARABIA
  • THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
  • ISRAEL
  • TURKEY
COUNTRIES TRUMPS ARE SUSPECTED OF COLLUDING WITH PRE-ELECTION:

  • Egypt
  • Hungary
COUNTRIES TRUMPS COLLUDED WITH POST-ELECTION:

  • QATAR
  • CHINA
 
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