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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn


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28 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

"My sources tell me the Senate Sergeant at Arms is currently rounding everyone up in a Paddy Wagon."

 

-Louise Mensch

“Scratch that, misunderstood, there’s a drunken Irishman on New Year’s Eve who drove a station wagon over a Sergeant’s arms.”

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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Interesting Twitter personality. She recently went after Seth Abramson because he said nothing in the dossier had been disproven. Her reasoning was that the dossier said that Russian hacking efforts were only moderately successful and she thinks they were very successful. These Twitter beefs between ‘the resistance’ are really strange. Mensch goes after Seth frequently and accuses him of being a Russian agent but she does that to everyone.

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4 hours ago, Biff84 said:

Interesting Twitter personality. She recently went after Seth Abramson because he said nothing in the dossier had been disproven. Her reasoning was that the dossier said that Russian hacking efforts were only moderately successful and she thinks they were very successful. These Twitter beefs between ‘the resistance’ are really strange. Mensch goes after Seth frequently and accuses him of being a Russian agent but she does that to everyone.

Grifters don't like ceding territory to other grifters.  

edit: happy new year guys

Edited by ren hoek
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1 hour ago, adonis said:

I'm impressed that Mueller has kept the investigation publicly from hitting anyone in Trump's orbit until after Democrats take control of the House.

I have a feeling things are going to get interesting soon.

It better because the midseason hiatus has been dragging  on. We haven't had any big news since that Russian KGB guy admitted they were putting pressure on Manafort and he was offering to repay them in creative ways that dealt with his campaign work. I guess that was like 3 days ago.

While that would have been the biggest story of the entire Obama administration,  it was basically confirmation of stories/emails that had leaked over a year ago and had been mostly forgotten. Hell, the Russian guys confirmation got like 3 posts in this thread of people obsessed with this investigation.

Give us something good, Bobby.

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6 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Honestly, I bet he was a spy.

There’s a certain amount of spycraft that I believe countries just look the other way at because they are doing the same thing in other countries. When Obama put in sanctions just before leaving office it involved expelling some Russians and shutting down a complex that was believed to being used to spy. Do you think the US just found out about this activity when he shut it down? Of course not, they let it go and monitored it until they needed political leverage.

This guy is probably a spy. Might be for Butina, might be for the unknown company that Mueller is fighting in court, we will probably know soon. One big question I’d have is would Trump be able to give them Butina in exchange for him?

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13 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

I'd rather keep Butina.

Who makes this final call? I'm to the point where it would not surprise me at all if it is suddenly reported that an exchange occurred, leaving unanswered questions whether this was all some elaborate set up to that end, since Butina had infiltrated republican heavies and had to be removed from the US to protect those institutions.

Edited by BigJim®
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I think the odds of Trump being impeached/removed are shrinking daily.  I think there is a small window of opportunity - assuming there are facts sufficient to support an impeachment - for this to happen.  If Mueller does not deliver his report by Spring - then I think Trump will finish his term.

Giuliani has already indicated that Trump will be claiming executive privilege on most testimony from his staff.  And, it won't matter whether Barr or Whitaker is the AG, both will respect that claim of privilege.  Thus, even if the AG agrees to release the report - it will be heavily redacted.  This will lead to the House committees subpoenaing the report - and setting off a legal battle that will end in the SC.  My guess is that is a several month process from start to finish.

So, assuming the SC ultimately rejects the claims of privilege on similar grounds as Nixon, it will be late 2019 before the House sees all the evidence.

At that point, there is a political calculus that must take place - do the Dems want to impeach Trump, or force the GOP to have a contested nomination process against a sitting President, or run a damaged Trump in the general election in 2020?  Now, it is possible the Dems impeach, knowing the Senate will not convict, just to have the story constantly being rehashed.  Oddly enough, depending on the evidence, but the GOP may see an impeachment as the only way to avoid running Trump in 2020.  But, I think the smart money says the GOP is losing the 2020 election in any event, no need to tarnish any other candidate.

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I think the odds of Trump being impeached/removed are shrinking daily.  I think there is a small window of opportunity - assuming there are facts sufficient to support an impeachment - for this to happen.  If Mueller does not deliver his report by Spring - then I think Trump will finish his term.

Giuliani has already indicated that Trump will be claiming executive privilege on most testimony from his staff.  And, it won't matter whether Barr or Whitaker is the AG, both will respect that claim of privilege.  Thus, even if the AG agrees to release the report - it will be heavily redacted.  This will lead to the House committees subpoenaing the report - and setting off a legal battle that will end in the SC.  My guess is that is a several month process from start to finish.

So, assuming the SC ultimately rejects the claims of privilege on similar grounds as Nixon, it will be late 2019 before the House sees all the evidence.

At that point, there is a political calculus that must take place - do the Dems want to impeach Trump, or force the GOP to have a contested nomination process against a sitting President, or run a damaged Trump in the general election in 2020?  Now, it is possible the Dems impeach, knowing the Senate will not convict, just to have the story constantly being rehashed.  Oddly enough, depending on the evidence, but the GOP may see an impeachment as the only way to avoid running Trump in 2020.  But, I think the smart money says the GOP is losing the 2020 election in any event, no need to tarnish any other candidate.

 

 

 

I actually think it may be better if he's not impeached.  With Democrats assuming control of the house, he has much less power now than he did the first half of his term.  You can sense him losing power and respect (and his mind). My true hope is that the list of crimes this man has committed continues to grow and those involved in helping and covering up his crimes continue to be thrown in jail. I think impeachment may be harmful for the country. It's apparent now that the right simply doesn't care what crimes this man committed.  There isn't going to ever be that 'Nixon resigns' moment where the President realizes he's been caught red-handed and it's best for the country if he steps down. It's not going to happen with Trump and he will carry his gullible and defiant base all the way to the end. It will be political chaos.

For me, best case scenario is for him to lose in a landslide in 2020 and then be brought up on his bevy of charges.  As a civilian. And he spends the rest of his life in prison.

Edited by JuniorNB
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30 minutes ago, JuniorNB said:

I actually think it may be better if he's not impeached.  With Democrats assuming control of the house, he has much less power now than he did the first half of his term.  You can sense him losing power and respect (and his mind). My true hope is that the list of crimes this man has committed continues to grow and those involved in helping and covering up his crimes continue to be thrown in jail. I think impeachment may be harmful for the country. It's apparent now that the right simply doesn't care what crimes this man committed.  There isn't going to ever be that 'Nixon resigns' moment where the President realizes he's been caught red-handed and it's best for the country if he steps down. It's not going to happen with Trump and he will carry his gullible and defiant base all the way to the end. It will be political chaos.

For me, best case scenario is for him to lose in a landslide in 2020 and then be brought up on his bevy of charges.  As a civilian. And he spends the rest of his life in prison.

That would be like if my true hope was to become even hornier. 

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1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

Ex-fed prosecutor Dan Goldman said he's beginning to believe conspiracy with Russian interference is not the most serious crime Mueller is investigating.

 

"There may have been a much larger conspiracy to provide sanctions relief to Russia" for assistance.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/trump-russia-what-expect-mueller-2019-n949281

The next thing to worry about is whether he's caught red-handed offering sanctions relief in return for electoral or personal financial help and his supporters don't care. Crimes that would have rendered previous presidents out the door will simply be dismissed by the right wing reactionary base of voters. 

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5 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

The next thing to worry about is whether he's caught red-handed offering sanctions relief in return for electoral or personal financial help and his supporters don't care. Crimes that would have rendered previous presidents out the door will simply be dismissed by the right wing reactionary base of voters. 

His supporters won't care.  

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4 minutes ago, The Indestructible said:

His supporters won't care.  

They told us otherwise in the early days of the investigation and before they dropped out of the Trump threads but I think the narrative has been turning for a while. It's going to be a big "So what?" coming from that side of the aisle. We've had ren pounding that drum for over a year already but when the crap hits the fan they're all going to be pounding out the same tune.

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1 hour ago, Bucky86 said:

Ex-fed prosecutor Dan Goldman said he's beginning to believe conspiracy with Russian interference is not the most serious crime Mueller is investigating.

"There may have been a much larger conspiracy to provide sanctions relief to Russia" for assistance.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/trump-russia-what-expect-mueller-2019-n949281

How is this a new story? 

  • Coordinating with Russia to help elect Trump.  Stolen data, coordinated messaging, Wikileaks, etc.
  • Cash money also likely exchanged among Trump folks, Russia, Mideast nations, Israel.
  • Russians and other nations get sanctions relief and other favorable policy.

These have been my starting place for two years now.

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz
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55 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

They told us otherwise in the early days of the investigation and before they dropped out of the Trump threads but I think the narrative has been turning for a while. It's going to be a big "So what?" coming from that side of the aisle. We've had ren pounding that drum for over a year already but when the crap hits the fan they're all going to be pounding out the same tune.

While this may be true, if we aren't a nation of laws anymore then it really is over. Though flawed, I still believe the justice system works. Trump will be a test of it for sure. If he is able to dismantle or rig it, we aren't much better than Venezuela.

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31 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

How is this a new story? 

  • Coordinating with Russia to help elect Trump.  Stolen data, coordinated messaging, Wikileaks, etc.
  • Cash money also likely exchanged among Trump folks, Russia, Mideast nations, Israel.
  • Russians and other nations get sanctions relief and other favorable policy.

These have been my starting place for two years now.

Agreed.  That speculation has been out and about for years.  The dirty money links predate Trump's nomination.  Not sure how this could be new speculation.

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1 minute ago, ericttspikes said:

While this may be true, if we aren't a nation of laws anymore then it really is over. Though flawed, I still believe the justice system works. Trump will be a test of it for sure. If he is able to dismantle or rig it, we aren't much better than Venezuela.

The laws are one thing, but what I'm garnering as this progresses is refusal to appreciate global adversaries as adversaries. It feels like the 'so what' we're building toward is a collective yawn at the notion of Russia influencing elections, infiltrating NRA/church, actually obtaining political favor (sanctions removed, pulling out of Syria, Ukraine tolerance). We now have a 35%-40% population who do not view that as problematic, while wrapping themselves in the American flag. It's unsettling.

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18 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

The laws are one thing, but what I'm garnering as this progresses is refusal to appreciate global adversaries as adversaries. It feels like the 'so what' we're building toward is a collective yawn at the notion of Russia influencing elections, infiltrating NRA/church, actually obtaining political favor (sanctions removed, pulling out of Syria, Ukraine tolerance). We now have a 35%-40% population who do not view that as problematic, while wrapping themselves in the American flag. It's unsettling.

Well said.  Trump will come and go.  The tribalistic tendencies that maintains the 35-40% base regardless of virtue or policy will not.

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35 minutes ago, Captain Cranks said:

Well said.  Trump will come and go.  The tribalistic tendencies that maintains the 35-40% base regardless of virtue or policy will not.

I disagree. They will keep their "no brown people" policy, forever.

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31 minutes ago, Dedfin said:

I disagree. They will keep their "no brown people" policy, forever.

Right, I get the racial divide and recognize that remains a conservative problem and is unlikely to change. But will the who cares about Russia interference, and protection of Turkey/Saudi Arabia, etc. extend beyond the days when our president stood to gain financially from those stances? I've seen some on this board embracing pro-Russia as an ok thing, as if Trump's own self interest in that topic is secondary. You only get to witch hunt mindset if you don't think the Russian intrusion is worth caring about.  

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9 hours ago, Bucky86 said:

Ex-fed prosecutor Dan Goldman said he's beginning to believe conspiracy with Russian interference is not the most serious crime Mueller is investigating.

 

"There may have been a much larger conspiracy to provide sanctions relief to Russia" for assistance.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/trump-russia-what-expect-mueller-2019-n949281

You don't have to be an ex-fed to know that the Trump team's official* story is that they met with a Russian who was later implicated in a KGB recruiting scandal in Europe and has said she was an agent of the Russian government to discuss dirt on Hilary Clinton and during the meeting they discussed Russian adoptions. The KGB recruiter was a well-known lobbyist against the Magnitsky Act. Russia retaliated against those sanctions by...curtailing adoptions. (I guess I shouldn't also point out that Trump tweeted about how Russia should wait until he was in charge to respond to Obama's sanctions that attempted to punish them for interfering with our election. Probably unrelated.)

I mean, Trump and his guys have also admitted they lied their asses off before they told that version of events. 

I won't even mention that one of the organizers and attendees of that meeting forwarded an email with a CNN report about the DNC hacks to some of the other attendees of the meeting where he said it was "eerily weird" considering what they'd talked about at the meeting with the Trump people.

Trump is basically OJ, he just released his "If I did it" a little too soon. 

*Yes, it's their official story. "We discussed dirt on Hilary and Russian sanctions with a Russian government agent" is Trump's official story. That he dictated and then lied about dictating. I'm sure that NBC News analyst is a nice guy, but we've known all of this for over a year. 

Edited by Rirruto
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1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

:fishy:  

Natasha Bertrand‏Verified account @NatashaBertrand

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Natasha Bertrand Retweeted Betsy Woodruff

Also, according to another Russian news agency, “Whelan was arrested five minutes after receiving a USB stick containing a list of all the employees at a classified security agency.”

 

Betsy Woodruff‏Verified account @woodruffbets

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Paul Whelan's lawyer tells NYT he hopes he can be part of a prisoner exchange with the US (!)

this is all smelling like a big setup to allow Butina to slink away and be murdered so as not to expose the top ranks of the Republican's who were involved with her and used her to receive nice PAC / campaign funding....

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1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

Yup. Putin helping out his son.

all too convenient, public and obvious....Trump hasn't said a word...how long until he announces a prisoner xchange via twitter?  You think the R's are going to object?  they'll pack her bags...you can see it coming...

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19 minutes ago, Banger said:

all too convenient, public and obvious....Trump hasn't said a word...how long until he announces a prisoner xchange via twitter?  You think the R's are going to object?  they'll pack her bags...you can see it coming...

Mueller and his ANGRY democrats are treating the lovely Maria Butina VERY unfairly.  She did nothing wrong and just wants to go home to Russia.  I have issued an executive order making that happen.  In fact she is already on a jet plane.  I don't know when she'll be back again...   1/2

 

... Also, and totally separately, I spoke with Putin this morning and DEMANDED that Russia release Paul Whelan.  I told him that if Russia messed with the Bull, they will get the horns!  Putin is a smart man, he agreed to send Whelan home tonight. #MAGA  #nopuppet  #nocollusion   2/2

 

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1 hour ago, Bucky86 said:

:fishy:  

Natasha Bertrand‏Verified account @NatashaBertrand

FollowingFollowing @NatashaBertrand

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Natasha Bertrand Retweeted Betsy Woodruff

 Also, according to another Russian news agency, “Whelan was arrested five minutes after receiving a USB stick containing a list of all the employees at a classified security agency.”

  

Betsy Woodruff‏Verified account @woodruffbets

 FollowFollow @woodruffbets

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Paul Whelan's lawyer tells NYT he hopes he can be part of a prisoner exchange with the US (!)

Let this guy rot imo. But I think this is 100% artificial.

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58 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

 Mueller and his ANGRY democrats are treating the lovely Maria Butina VERY unfairly.  She did nothing wrong and just wants to go home to Russia.  I have issued an executive order making that happen.  In fact she is already on a jet plane.  I don't know when she'll be back again...   1/2

 

 ... Also, and totally separately, I spoke with Putin this morning and DEMANDED that Russia release Paul Whelan.  I told him that if Russia messed with the Bull, they will get the horns!  Putin is a smart man, he agreed to send Whelan home tonight. #MAGA  #nopuppet  #nocollusion   2/2

  

Dude, you had me until the jet plane stuff :lmao:

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Asha Rangappa‏Verified account @AshaRangappa_

True -- but as I said before the FBI collected a lot of intel on Butina and her contacts (inc possibly via FISA surveillance) before she was arrested...I suspect they have a lot to go on without her. And Trump can't trade Americans once they're arrested soooo

 

 

didn't realize this...

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1 minute ago, Banger said:

Asha Rangappa‏Verified account @AshaRangappa_

True -- but as I said before the FBI collected a lot of intel on Butina and her contacts (inc possibly via FISA surveillance) before she was arrested...I suspect they have a lot to go on without her. And Trump can't trade Americans once they're arrested soooo

 

 

didn't realize this...

Apparently a lot of people found that part confusing:

 

Asha Rangappa‏Verified account @AshaRangappa_

I'm not sure why this is confusing people -- I said Trump can't trade *Americans* once they are arrested. Because they are American citizens and live here. So if NRA or GOP folks get arrested as a result of what FBI has uncovered thru Butina inv, they are stuck.

 

Asha Rangappa‏Verified account @AshaRangappa_

Who would he trade Americans to? They're citizens here. Butina will traded to Russia because she's a Russian national.

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1 minute ago, The Indestructible said:

Apparently a lot of people found that part confusing:

 

Asha Rangappa‏Verified account @AshaRangappa_

I'm not sure why this is confusing people -- I said Trump can't trade *Americans* once they are arrested. Because they are American citizens and live here. So if NRA or GOP folks get arrested as a result of what FBI has uncovered thru Butina inv, they are stuck.

 

Asha Rangappa‏Verified account @AshaRangappa_

Who would he trade Americans to? They're citizens here. Butina will traded to Russia because she's a Russian national.

ok....thanks...get it now but that wasn't clear to me.

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