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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn


whoknew

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My take on where we are and how we got here.

1.  I think Russia preferred Trump to Clinton

2.  I think Russia's primary goals were to eliminate the sanctions that were impacting the Russian economy, and to destabilize Europe/NATO to make it easier for Russia to take certain strategic real estate.

3.  I think Russia looked to leverage Trump's existing financial arrangements with the Oligarchs and also to exploit Trump's ego in building Trump Moscow.

4.  Trump has a predisposition to admire authoritarian leaders - Putin fits that mold.  And, I think Trump has an odd fascination with Putin.

5.  Russia worked behind the scenes to elect Trump.  I think its an open question whether some of Trump's people were knowingly working in concert with the Russians

6.  I think Trump is blind to Putin - and has no idea how Putin is using him to further the Russian agenda.  Putin whispers sweet nothings to Trump, and Trump buys it all hook, line and sinker.

7.  Trump's ego will not allow him to contemplate that he has been played like a cheap banjo.

 

Trump is a Russian asset.  I think he is an unwitting asset - but one who is also willfully blind.  That makes him dangerous, and at this point, complicit.  I don't believe there was a secret plan that was hatched by Trump and Putin.  I think this was Putin taking advantage of Trump's naiveté, and ego.  Some of the players may be more complicit - i.e. they knew they were working on behalf of Russian interests.  I also think that Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice - such that impeachment would be proper.  

I hold the GOP as much, or more, responsible for allowing this to continue.  A proper investigation into Russian interference should have taken place under GOP leadership, and uncovered much of what we are seeing reported now.  Then, even if Trump were an unwitting asset - everyone could act with eyes wide open to whether we were acting in US best interest, or Russia's best interest.  Now those questions will be asked with every decision.

I am also astounded that the GOP will allow Trump to lift the sanctions on  Deripaska's companies - simply because they shifted the ownership a bit.  That is a dereliction in duty, imo.

 

Certainly, if more information becomes public about what Trump knew, and when he knew it - then I would be up for changing my views here.  For now, he is just an idiot, who deserves to lose his job because he is an idiot.

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2 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Perhaps that's the true meaning of deep state?  Mueller has informed enough of he right people in order to limit the total catastrophe of this presidency.

Seems unlikely. More likely is that Mueller felt he needs to make a 100% airtight case such that no one can skate due to politics.

Agree that the former seems unlikely. What leaks have we heard from the OSC? If he's informing people prior to court filings, stuff would be leaking.

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On 1/12/2019 at 11:06 PM, squistion said:

"Are you now or have you ever worked for Russia, Mr. President?"

Trump doesn't directly answer: "I think it's the most insulting thing I've ever been asked. I think it's the most insulting article I've ever had written."

Via Fox

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1084310297039368193

He answered the question more directly this morning.

- Albeit by claiming that he has lots of meetings with foreign leaders that he doesn't tell his government about and also that (of course): 'hoax.'

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56 minutes ago, Skoo said:

The President of the United States is a Russian asset.

I've believed that the campaign was guilty of some kind of collusion from the start, but two years later it's still completely surreal to type that sentence.

Now type "And the entire GOP is still standing behind him and fighting for him, tooth and nail".  How does that make you feel?

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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

Its funny, because when this was reported in 2017 - nobody took the allegation that Putin was running Trump seriously.

 

Now, its not funny, because it might be true.

You know it is, right?  I mean, if it looks like a  duck, and quacks like a duck and all that.  

Using Hoccam's razor here - Trump is a Russian asset.  

The President of the United States is a Russian agent.  That's some Tom Clancy #### right there.  

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20 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

:goodposting:

But I don't think it's so much an open question whether Trump's people knowingly worked in concert with Russia. The question is mostly did TRUMP know they were.

I’d go as far to say that several people were in the campaign because of their connections to Russia - Manafort, Flynn, Papadopoulos, Page, etc.

I think we will find that the Russian ties are even deeper in that Russian Intelligence and the Kremlin played a big part in identifying Russian friendly people to serve on the campaign, transition and administration as well as identifying others who may be compromised.

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Maybe I'm being naive, but if the Republicans had actually taken this seriously (assuming some of the leadership isn't involved) and welcomed the investigation and did their part, I would think their current standing would be higher than it currently is.  What better way to campaign than to show they are above partisan lines and simply did what's right.

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2 hours ago, The Commish said:

Ignorance is a defense with a lot of people and it was further solidified in Comey's opinion on Clinton where he essentially said, "Yeah, she did obviously stupid things and was completely careless, but she didn't know what she was doing or at the very least wasn't doing it with the intent to hurt anyone/anything".  It's the one thing that came from Comey that disgusted me.

Just to tie this in, consider that Trump has been reported as ordering the destruction of records. And I think but I am not sure that an interpreter's notes from a leader to leader foreign policy discussion would be on a very high level of classified, even though unmarked. If this is true he's guilty of that, and the one to one order to the interpreter makes "intent" completely unclouded. And IIRC Omarosa Manigault wrote that she saw Trump actually chewing and swallowing notes. (eta - Also IIRC Woodward reported something similar about Trump tearing up memos, throwing them in the trash can, and his aides scrambling to pick them back up, and piece and tape them back together). It would be crime no. 83 on the list of crimes under consideration but it's suggested by the reporting.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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34 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Just to tie this in, consider that Trump has been reported as ordering the destruction of records. And I think but I am not sure that an interpreter's notes from a leader to leader foreign policy discussion would be on a very high level of classified, even though unmarked. If this is true he's guilty of that, and the one to one order to the interpreter makes "intent" completely unclouded. And IIRC Omarosa Manigault wrote that she saw Trump actually chewing and swallowing notes. (eta - Also IIRC Woodward reported something similar about Trump tearing up memos, throwing them in the trash can, and his aides scrambling to pick them back up, and piece and tape them back together). It would be crime no. 83 on the list of crimes under consideration but it's suggested by the reporting.

Does he eat them with salt, some type of hot sauce, ketchup?

Treason is so so tasty.

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9 hours ago, gianmarco said:

We have different definitions of "completely debunked". An opinion piece from the Washington Examiner is hardly that.

I trust this source substantially more. Quite the opposite of completely debunked.

Stop posting falsehoods, please.

The language wasn’t even in the platform until the Ted Cruz supporter suggested the amendment to it.  They changed ‘lethal defensive weapons’ to ‘appropriate assistance’.  

“In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft. 

Finally, Denman's lethal aid suggestion was changed to "appropriate assistance to the armed forces" — a change that put the specific promise of U.S. aid to Ukraine's armed forces in the platform where it had not been originally. 

"The platform ended up tougher than it started, compared from the beginning to the end," Denman told me, although she added she still believes her lethal aid provision should have been included in the final document. “

Quote

In the international arena, a weak Administration has invited aggression. The results of the Administration’s unilateral approach to disarmament are already clear: An emboldened China in the South China Sea, a resurgent Russia occupying parts of Ukraine and threatening neighbors from the Baltic to the Caucasus, and an aggressive Islamist terror network in the Middle East.

We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning. ..

For the people of Russia, we affirm our respect and our determination to maintain a friendship beyond the reach of those who wish to divide us. We have common imperatives: Ending terrorism, combating nuclear proliferation, promoting trade, and more. We also have a common problem: The continuing erosion of personal liberty and fundamental rights under the current officials in the Kremlin. Repressive at home and reckless abroad, their policies imperil the nations which regained their self-determination upon the collapse of the Soviet Union. We will meet the return of Russian belligerence with the same resolve that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. We will not accept any territorial change in Eastern Europe imposed by force, in Ukraine, Georgia, or elsewhere, and will use all appropriate constitutional measures to bring to justice the practitioners of aggression and assassination.

The platform was strengthened with Denman's passage, which was nonexistent in the platform before being passed with Trump's approval.  It was not "gutted" or weakened.  That is absolutely, completely false.  And it didn't matter anyway!  Trump sold anti-tank Javeline missiles to Ukraine in December of 17.  

It's a manufactured crisis based on a brutal mischaracterization of what actually happened.  Please stop perpetuating this disingenuous falsehood clickbait

Edited by ren hoek
quote function sucks on mobile
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6 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

The language wasn’t even in the platform until the Ted Cruz supporter suggested the amendment to it.  They changed ‘lethal defensive weapons’ to ‘appropriate assistance’.  

“In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft. 

Finally, Denman's lethal aid suggestion was changed to "appropriate assistance to the armed forces" — a change that put the specific promise of U.S. aid to Ukraine's armed forces in the platform where it had not been originally. 

"The platform ended up tougher than it started, compared from the beginning to the end," Denman told me, although she added she still believes her lethal aid provision should have been included in the final document. “

 

 

Why are you quoting my post and then posting quotes from your original link?  I read your link.  It's an OPINION piece and it's from the Washington Examiner, an extremely right leaning publication with bias.

Once again, read the link that I provided from a much more credible source.

STOP.  SPREADING.  FALSEHOODS.

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34 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Why are you quoting my post and then posting quotes from your original link?  I read your link.  It's an OPINION piece and it's from the Washington Examiner, an extremely right leaning publication with bias.

Once again, read the link that I provided from a much more credible source.

STOP.  SPREADING.  FALSEHOODS.

Because your link analyzed the significance of two words and discards all other context.  York’s piece explains how narrow minded and stupid this hollow talking point is and gives readers real context on the actual formation of the platform.  

If you read the platform, you’ll notice it’s not exactly dovish on Russia.  The truth is that those passages strengthened the platform where they otherwise didn’t exist.  Regardless of what the two words politifact analyzed say. 

I don’t know why people think the gop platform mattered.  Trump sold lethal weaponry to Ukraine and people would still think the GOP is ‘Putin’s poodle’ or whatever anyway.  

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9 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

Because your link analyzed the significance of two words and discards all other context.  York’s piece explains how narrow minded and stupid this hollow talking point is and gives readers real context on the actual formation of the platform.  

If you read the platform, you’ll notice it’s not exactly dovish on Russia.  The truth is that those passages strengthened the platform where they otherwise didn’t exist.  Regardless of what the two words politifact analyzed say. 

I don’t know why people think the gop platform mattered.  Trump sold lethal weaponry to Ukraine and people would still think the GOP is ‘Putin’s poodle’ or whatever anyway.  

“Not exactly” is the new “everyone is saying”.  Your word salad is as tasty as the interpreters ripped up notes.

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Michael Cohen has been called to testify before Congress.

Last night on Fox News, Trump claimed Cohen is “in trouble on some loans and fraud” and also that he “should give information maybe on his father-in-law, because that’s the one that people want to look at."

Intimidating or attempting to intimidate a congressional witness is a federal crime. If this isn’t an attempt by Trump to intimidate Cohen, I don’t know what is.

If you didn't already know it, the current president of the United States is a criminal.

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33 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Pretty sure JD Gordon already said that Trump ordered it via Gordon, or that's been reported.

I meant all the language in Denman’s proposed amendment (sanctions, NATO cooperation, assistance to Ukrainian forces etc.). It hardlined the platform on Ukraine.  

To suggest that changing those two words gutted the GOP platform and was a personal gift to Vladimir Putin (as it calls for sanctions, NATO collaboration, and further militarizing Ukraine) is about as disingenuous as it gets.  It’s just not true.  

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7 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

I meant all the language in Denman’s proposed amendment (sanctions, NATO cooperation, assistance to Ukrainian forces etc.). It hardlined the platform on Ukraine.  

To suggest that changing those two words gutted the GOP platform and was a personal gift to Vladimir Putin (as it calls for sanctions, NATO collaboration, and further militarizing Ukraine) is about as disingenuous as it gets.  It’s just not true.  

Whelp...you convinced me.

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6 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Perhaps that's the true meaning of deep state?  Mueller has informed enough of he right people in order to limit the total catastrophe of this presidency.

Seems unlikely. More likely is that Mueller felt he needs to make a 100% airtight case such that no one can skate due to politics.

If it's true I can't imagine the sleepless nights that dude must have trying to figure out what to do.  No matter how seasoned he is this is a once in a lifetime investigation with huge stakes.  I'm an idiot but I'd be prone to panic and go running down the street yelling "he did it!!"

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Byron York @ByronYork

Reading Mark Warner CNN transcript on Trump-Russia. This the-latest-stories-are-very-troubling-but-I-can't-say-what-I-know-because-it's-a-super-duper-secret routine is getting really old...  

Given seriousness of Trump-Russia allegations, there is a desperate need for radical transparency. Full Mueller report, plus all underlying testimony/interview transcripts, should be released. No classified versions. 

Full Senate Intelligence Committee report, plus all underlying testimony/interview transcripts, should be released. Everything. Plus all transcripts from House Intelligence Committee and Senate Judiciary.  No classified versions. 

And don't talk about sources and methods. This whole affair has done enormous damage to the United States. This is bigger than sources and methods. Enough hush-hush and heavy breathing. Americans deserve to know what happened.  

Michael Isikoff @Isikoff

Exactly

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1 minute ago, ren hoek said:

Byron York @ByronYork

Reading Mark Warner CNN transcript on Trump-Russia. This the-latest-stories-are-very-troubling-but-I-can't-say-what-I-know-because-it's-a-super-duper-secret routine is getting really old...  

Given seriousness of Trump-Russia allegations, there is a desperate need for radical transparency. Full Mueller report, plus all underlying testimony/interview transcripts, should be released. No classified versions. 

Full Senate Intelligence Committee report, plus all underlying testimony/interview transcripts, should be released. Everything. Plus all transcripts from House Intelligence Committee and Senate Judiciary.  No classified versions. 

And don't talk about sources and methods. This whole affair has done enormous damage to the United States. This is bigger than sources and methods. Enough hush-hush and heavy breathing. Americans deserve to know what happened.  

Michael Isikoff @Isikoff

Exactly

They can't show everyone it's a witch hunt. Nothing will ever be released.

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58 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Michael Cohen has been called to testify before Congress.

Last night on Fox News, Trump claimed Cohen is “in trouble on some loans and fraud” and also that he “should give information maybe on his father-in-law, because that’s the one that people want to look at."

Intimidating or attempting to intimidate a congressional witness is a federal crime. If this isn’t an attempt by Trump to intimidate Cohen, I don’t know what is.

If you didn't already know it, the current president of the United States is a criminal.

Pretty much.   It's like adding a deck chair to the Titanic at this point to try to keep track of his crimes.  Just the #### he's done in public since the election should be enough to impeach.  

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