The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (7 Viewers)

Bucky86 said:

Jordain Carney‏ @jordainc

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GOP senators who supported taking up resolution: 1) Boozman 2) Collins 3) Cotton 4) Daines 5) Gardner 6) Hawley 7) Kennedy McSally 9) Moran 10) Rubio 11) Sasse

2:51 PM - 15 Jan 2019

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Bucky86 said:

Jordain Carney‏ @jordainc

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GOP senators who supported taking up resolution: 1) Boozman 2) Collins 3) Cotton 4) Daines 5) Gardner 6) Hawley 7) Kennedy McSally 9) Moran 10) Rubio 11) Sasse

2:51 PM - 15 Jan 2019

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Bucky86 said:

Jordain Carney‏ @jordainc

FollowFollow @jordainc

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GOP senators who supported taking up resolution: 1) Boozman 2) Collins 3) Cotton 4) Daines 5) Gardner 6) Hawley 7) Kennedy McSally 9) Moran 10) Rubio 11) Sasse

2:51 PM - 15 Jan 2019

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prefontaine said:

I'm confused by this list. No Romney? Mitt voted for easing Russian sanctions? 

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prefontaine said:

I'm confused by this list. No Romney? Mitt voted for easing Russian sanctions? 

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Sinn Fein said:

Senators still need to find 3 votes - soon - to reverse Treasury's decision to rescind sanctions.

I fear a lot of those 11 votes were just for show - "Hey we tried.  Sorry.   "

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SaintsInDome2006 said:

Yep you’re right, Mitt voted against.

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Sinn Fein said:

This is a game by the GOP.

You see a lot or Purple Sens voting here - and will raise their hand at election time to say they tried.  But the GOP, as a party, does not look like they are going to let this pass.

Its all for show.

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prefontaine said:

There has to be more to this or we're truly doomed. 

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prefontaine said:

Not trying to be obtuse here and I'm as cynical as they come but that's the benefit of the Senate. Most of them aren't worried about reelection and ffs Romney has 6 years and he's all but Senator-for-life if he wants it in Utah anyway.

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Sinn Fein said:

Sasse

Daines

Gardner

McSally

Collins

Cotton

All up for election in 2020...

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Rirruto said:

Wait. What? Maybe one of the first times the senate delegation from Arkansas didn't embarrass themselves in the state's history. Big!

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Henry Ford said:

@ren hoek Each side is running with a massive conspiracy theory, right? And only one at most can be correct.  Russia/Manafort/Trump/Flynn/etc  vs Mueller/Comey/Clinton/etc.

I’m still short of believing we’re beyond a reasonable doubt on Trump willingly being involved in any conspiracy or part thereof.  But I’m pretty all in on some of the other players.

But here’s the thing: the main and strongest argument against most conspiracy theories is: you would need so many people involved and someone would talk and/or get caught. 

They’re all talking and getting caught in my theory. You?

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ren hoek said:

I don't think skepticism of the Russia investigation requires belief in a massive conspiracy.  I mean, I personally believe that the intelligence apparatus hated Trump and clearly acted on their emotions time and time again, unprofessionally, criminally.  But that's different from pointing out factual information that cuts against commonly accepted misperceptions about the central Trump/Russia collusion theory.  

They're not getting caught for the collusion theory that this thread is about.  Payments to porn stars, money laundering, tax evasion, etc., really have nothing at all to do with collusion and the judges in Manafort's cases have said as much.  None of the indictments are against Americans for their work in the 2016 election, or against Americans for criminally conspiring with the Russian state.  There are a bunch of indictments against Russian memers, which I guess is something.  

The point is, people can toss out the 30-something indictment figure all they like.  It doesn't confirm the central narrative about Trump/Russia collusion, or justify the country getting swept up in Cold War hysteria.  Moreover, this collusion fantasy has had a devastating impact on this country and its civic wellbeing.  Wrap it up already, wherever it's going.  

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ren hoek said:

I don't think skepticism of the Russia investigation requires belief in a massive conspiracy...

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ren hoek said:

I mean, I personally believe that the intelligence apparatus hated Trump and clearly acted on their emotions time and time again, unprofessionally, criminally. 

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SaintsInDome2006 said:

I can tell you one way you can know you’re wrong about this. And that is that Judge Sullivan begged, dared, cajoled, pleaded Flynn to stand up and make that claim in open court. You know what happened? He said no thanks and his trap was shut. He pleaded guilty to *everything he was accused of. And Sullivan, one of the few independent arbiters to look at the unredacted evidence, called him a traitor, that he betrayed his country.

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SaintsInDome2006 said:

I can tell you one way you can know you’re wrong about this. And that is that Judge Sullivan begged, dared, cajoled, pleaded Flynn to stand up and make that claim in open court. You know what happened? He said no thanks and his trap was shut. He pleaded guilty to *everything he was accused of. And Sullivan, one of the few independent arbiters to look at the unredacted evidence, called him a traitor, that he betrayed his country.

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dozer said:

Special counsel Mueller filed a new document today providing supporting evidence re. the allegation that Paul Manafort lied.

The document; DECLARATION IN SUPPORT OF THE GOVERNMENT'S BREACH DETERMINATION AND SENTENCING

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ren hoek said:

I don't think skepticism of the Russia investigation requires belief in a massive conspiracy.  I mean, I personally believe that the intelligence apparatus hated Trump and clearly acted on their emotions time and time again, unprofessionally, criminally.  But that's different from pointing out factual information that cuts against commonly accepted misperceptions about the central Trump/Russia collusion theory.  

They're not getting caught for the collusion theory that this thread is about.  Payments to porn stars, money laundering, tax evasion, etc., really have nothing at all to do with collusion and the judges in Manafort's cases have said as much.  None of the indictments are against Americans for their work in the 2016 election, or against Americans for criminally conspiring with the Russian state.  There are a bunch of indictments against Russian memers, which I guess is something.  

The point is, people can toss out the 30-something indictment figure all they like.  It doesn't confirm the central narrative about Trump/Russia collusion, or justify the country getting swept up in Cold War hysteria.  Moreover, this collusion fantasy has had a devastating impact on this country and its civic wellbeing.  Wrap it up already, wherever it's going.  

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Henry Ford said:

Even simple investigations take time.  Depending on what’s been found, this is potentially the most complex investigation that’s ever been undertaken by domestic law enforcement in this country. 

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Biff84 said:

McSally? I’m intrigued by this. She was anti-Trump until she started her Senate campaign and got behind him 100% to win the nomination.

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ren hoek said:

They're not getting caught for the collusion theory that this thread is about.  Payments to porn stars, money laundering, tax evasion, etc., really have nothing at all to do with collusion and the judges in Manafort's cases have said as much.  None of the indictments are against Americans for their work in the 2016 election, or against Americans for criminally conspiring with the Russian state. 

Click to expand...

ren hoek said:

I don't think skepticism of the Russia investigation requires belief in a massive conspiracy.  I mean, I personally believe that the intelligence apparatus hated Trump and clearly acted on their emotions time and time again, unprofessionally, criminally.  But that's different from pointing out factual information that cuts against commonly accepted misperceptions about the central Trump/Russia collusion theory.  

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moleculo said:

At what point will you accept the IC's findings?  What would it take? 

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sho nuff said:

Guys it’s ok if he committed numerous other crimes with Russia...it’s not collusion so this thread is

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Mario Kart said:

So far, actions speak louder than anything Mueller can discover. The actions we have seen from Trump and his posse have pointed to many things un-American. The list of actions should be cause for concern of every American. Facts are that his actions point to not benefitting America in any way, shape, or form. It’s unfortuante people still back him like some Messiah of the ancient world. Sad!

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OrtonToOlsen said:

This is from Clint Watts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Watts

Imagine you are a FBI Agent working Russian counterintelligence in 2016 and you witness the following:

• you witnessed Russian hackers targeting a wide swath of Americans including the DNC, DCCC, former Secretary of State & a Presidential candidates staff
  
• someone previously targeted by Russian Intelligence joins the Trump campaign and then appears on a stage in Moscow supporting Russia policy and speaking negatively of US policy
  
• A Presidential candidate hires a new campaign manager whose not been in the business in the states for years, but has been seen pushing a Russian agenda in Ukraine and has Russian intel contacts
  
• an Australian official contacts you and says the Russians have stolen emails of a Presidential candidate & may want to give them to the candidate’s competitor
  
• a Russian lawyer & others tied to Russian government visit a Presidential candidate’s son in the candidate’s building in NYC
  
• Candidate Trump stands on a stage and calls out Russia and asks about emails from his competitor, says they will be rewarded if they have them and release them
  
• website that’s released sensitive & classified documents from US for years, helped deliver a US insider to The Kremlin, begins publishing document & emails during Dem convention, content you know was stolen by Russia. Site administrator once hosted a TV show on Russia State TV
  
• A strange, unexpected policy change occurs at RNC convention, the change is a less supportive position toward Ukraine and is advantageous to Russia
  
• candidate’s campaign manager goes on CNN and asserts a false terrorist attack in Turkey, one tied to and advanced by Russian propaganda
  
• during this time, you watch a campaign associate tweet with a Russian account that’s pointing people to stolen documents from the opposing campaign. The campaign associate predicts something will happen to the opposing campaign manager- his emails are later released
  
• as Election Day approaches, Presidential candidate makes allegation, without evidence, voter Fraud & Election Rigging, Russia propaganda echoes this, social media accounts associated Kremlin do the same, at same time, you watch Russian Hackers hit state election infrastructure
  
• After election, current President issues sanctions against Russia, but the incoming National Security advisor makes calls to Russian officials from 3rd country, when approached for clarification post inauguration, the advisor lies about contents of phone call w/Russian officials
  
• During summer fall leading into the election, you receive raw intelligence from highly reliable source whose proven invaluable on other investigations. source provides intelligence on Russia’s efforts to support a presidential candidate, the info is consistent with other info
  
• Before inauguration your bosses, your leaders from all intelligence agencies brief president elect on classified info showing Russia influenced the election on behalf of President elect. President elect rejects intelligence from all your superiors and suggests Russia innocent
  
• From the summer of 2015 all the way through the election and after inauguration, you watch as the candidate, president elect and now president offers overt effusive support for Vladimir Putin who you know has been helping the President get elected.
  
• Shortly after inauguration, your new commander-in-chief spouts false information about Polish aggression toward Belarus. This is not supported by the Intelligence community you are in, and the only source for this viewpoint is Russian propaganda
  
• After firing of National Security Advisor that lies to you agencies investigators, the President corners your boss 1-1 asks him to go easy on National Security Advisor who lies about his conversation with Russians
  
• During this period, the President inexplicably and repeatedly asks your boss if he’s under investigation with regards to Russia, despite your boss and other intel heads going out of their way to brief the President about Kremlin efforts to potentially compromise & manipulate him
  
• While Congressional committees investigate Russian interference, the President fires your boss for his handling of an email investigation into the President’s opponent, an investigation that helped elevate the President rather than hurt him
  
• You later find out a draft memo from President to your boss regarding his firing cited the Russia investigation
  
• The President then goes on national television and in an interview says he fired your boss because of the Russia investigation
  
• A week after firing your boss, the President invites Russian leaders into the Oval Office, Russian photographers capture the moment, but US media is not allowed to observe. President then brags to Russian leaders about firing your boss
  
• Sometime during the spring, if you’re not already aware, you read a news story alleging the President’s son-in-law may have sought a way to communicate with Russia via a back channel not monitored by you and your colleagues
  
• During summer, you watch the President attend NATO summit and shove Montenegro PM, in an Interview claim Montenegro is aggressive, might start a war. This mirrors Russian propaganda & you know Russia backed covert operation destabilize Montenegrin election
  
• For next year, either you, your colleagues and your organization, FBI, are discredited by President. He mixes true and false information in public disclosures which you are not allowed to respond to. If you do respond, your accused of leaking and could be fired or even jailed
  
• Documents & information from confidential sources you’ve pledged to protect, are selectively leaked into public through those who are supposed to provide government oversight. These inappropriate disclosures make your job as an investigator nearly impossible & hurts your sources
  
• At some point during the summer or before, you learn that the President’s son was receiving & responding to direct messages from website that was releasing emails stolen from the President’s opponent by Russia
  
• 1st two years President’s term, you watch him take a negative, adversarial stance toward NATO and particularly Germany. This strains your relationship with your most valuable intel partners, your Counterterrorism agent colleagues depend on them & they help fight war on terror
  
• Over next 2 years, President aggressively seeks meetings with Putin who helped elect him. Need for meetings is not clear. one President meets in private with Putin for 2 hours without witnesses but translator. To this day, you, your bosses don’t really know what was discussed
  
• President emerges from private meeting with Putin and on world stage in Helsinki accepts and validates Russian denials about election interference & rejects years of your teams intel work. This badly damages your reputation and partner trust with your organization
  
• Separately, your President publicly discusses a Russian proposed partnership on cyber security, this insane concept is mind boggling to you as an investigator as you’ve just spent years tracking these same Russians who just attacked your country
  
• Even further, your President publicly mentions a possible exchange where Russian investigators might interview and interrogate you and other Americans about their attack on you and America. A crazy, frightening and bizarre threat to you as a civil servant.
  
• Throughout your investigation into Russian interference, you watch as your President’s attacks on the Special Counsel, Justice Department & FBI are amplified and spread in America by the very Russian troll social media accounts and state sponsored propaganda you are investigating
  
• Throughout the Special Counsel indictments, hearings and trials, you watch the President and his legal team publicly interject, discredit witnesses and discuss pardons, all subverting the rule of law and justice which you’ve dedicated your life to protect and defend
  
• You either know or learn a parallel investigation shows Russians representing a bogus Russian gun rights movement penetrated the political party hosting members who’ve tried to discredit you - you recognize this as a TEXTBOOK espionage/influence op you learned at FBI academy
  
• After two years, the Attorney General over you, who appropriately recused himself from Russia investigation, is fired for seemingly no clear reason after taking public lashings from the President
  
• Your AG is replaced by an acting AG whose unqualified for position, has limited experience justify such high level appointment, you’ve watched him on TV discrediting your agency and your team’s investigation despite seeing none of evidence or knowing anything Russian influence
  
• The same month, the President’s personal lawyer pleads guilty in federal court and says he continued negotiations throughout almost the entire Presidential campaign for a Tower in Moscow. This is in opposition to President’s public denials.
  
• You read public reporting that the best apartment in the Moscow Tower project pursued by the President’s business was offered to Russia’s President Putin, the same Putin your President always sides with over you and your agency, the Putin who helped your President win
  
• You either knew or learned through a redaction error that the President’s campaign manager was alleged to have lied about providing polling data to a Russian whom he owed money, via a former Russian GRU contact
  

Massive coincidence, indeed

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moleculo said:

I'm all for skeptism, I really am.  But to continue to deny Russia's involvement requires a blatant disbelief of the entire IC  - the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.  It's been 2+ years now, and there are no legitimate voices of dissent - there have been no whistle blowers calling it all bunk, no rogue agents coming out and saying it was a 400 lb guy in NJ.  Nothing.

At what point will you accept the IC's findings?  What would it take? 

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Bucky86 said:

Kyle Griffin ‏ Verified account The day after the two meetings with Putin at the G-20, Trump telephoned a NYT reporter and argued that the Russians were falsely accused of election interference.

Why is the POTUS arguing Kremlin talking points? Traitor.

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Bucky86 said:

Kyle Griffin ‏ Verified account The day after the two meetings with Putin at the G-20, Trump telephoned a NYT reporter and argued that the Russians were falsely accused of election interference.

Why is the POTUS arguing Kremlin talking points? Traitor.

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TobiasFunke said:

You've done this many, many times. It's been pointed out to you that you don't get to define what this thread is about, and that most people would say it's a much broader inquiry than just "election collusion," many, many times. Honestly you don't even have to read further than the often-changed titles to see this, including the current one. And yet you still do it.

Just noting this for people who still harbor some illusion that you're here in good faith and willing to engage.  IMO you're either a propagandist, a troll or you simply don't bother to read and process what other people post.  At least those are the only three explanations I can think of for you continuing to do this.

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Bucky86 said:

I love how Trump thinks so little of our intelligence services that he thinks we couldn't figure out who did it.

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SaintsInDome2006 said:

>>Mr. Trump later told The Times that he went over to see his wife, Melania Trump, who was sitting next to Mr. Putin, and the two leaders then talked, with Mr. Putin’s interpreter translating. No American officials were present, and the White House did not confirm the encounter until more than 10 days later, after it was independently reported.<<

- Doesn’t Melania speak Russian?

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Bucky86 said:

I love how Trump thinks so little of our intelligence services that he thinks we couldn't figure out who did it.

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Banger said:

I"m sure it was Trump's great idea to have a joint cyber task force with Russia....Putin had to be dying laughing after Trump said that with a straight face....

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That one guy said:

I am 100% confident Trump has referred to them (Russians) as “computer Ninjas” when talking about the subject.  It hasn’t been reported that I know of, but I just know he’s said it and felt great about the phrasing

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Bucky86 said:

I love the cyber.

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Banger said:

I"m sure it was Trump's great idea to have a joint cyber task force with Russia....Putin had to be dying laughing after Trump said that with a straight face....

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Skoo said:

That was one of my favorite moments of his Presidency so far.

3 hours later, after watching himself get broiled on TV: "I know that there could never be a task force with Russia..."

But really, the funny part to me is it proves just how simple Trump is.

"Hey, no one could possibly blame Russia for hacking us if we're working together on cyber security! It's bulletproof!"

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Bucky86 said:

bro, I GOT YOU.

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OrtonToOlsen said:

This is from Clint Watts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Watts

Imagine you are a FBI Agent working Russian counterintelligence in 2016 and you witness the following:

• you witnessed Russian hackers targeting a wide swath of Americans including the DNC, DCCC, former Secretary of State & a Presidential candidates staff
  
• someone previously targeted by Russian Intelligence joins the Trump campaign and then appears on a stage in Moscow supporting Russia policy and speaking negatively of US policy
  
• A Presidential candidate hires a new campaign manager whose not been in the business in the states for years, but has been seen pushing a Russian agenda in Ukraine and has Russian intel contacts
  
• an Australian official contacts you and says the Russians have stolen emails of a Presidential candidate & may want to give them to the candidate’s competitor
  
• a Russian lawyer & others tied to Russian government visit a Presidential candidate’s son in the candidate’s building in NYC
  
• Candidate Trump stands on a stage and calls out Russia and asks about emails from his competitor, says they will be rewarded if they have them and release them
  
• website that’s released sensitive & classified documents from US for years, helped deliver a US insider to The Kremlin, begins publishing document & emails during Dem convention, content you know was stolen by Russia. Site administrator once hosted a TV show on Russia State TV
  
• A strange, unexpected policy change occurs at RNC convention, the change is a less supportive position toward Ukraine and is advantageous to Russia
  
• candidate’s campaign manager goes on CNN and asserts a false terrorist attack in Turkey, one tied to and advanced by Russian propaganda
  
• during this time, you watch a campaign associate tweet with a Russian account that’s pointing people to stolen documents from the opposing campaign. The campaign associate predicts something will happen to the opposing campaign manager- his emails are later released
  
• as Election Day approaches, Presidential candidate makes allegation, without evidence, voter Fraud & Election Rigging, Russia propaganda echoes this, social media accounts associated Kremlin do the same, at same time, you watch Russian Hackers hit state election infrastructure
  
• After election, current President issues sanctions against Russia, but the incoming National Security advisor makes calls to Russian officials from 3rd country, when approached for clarification post inauguration, the advisor lies about contents of phone call w/Russian officials
  
• During summer fall leading into the election, you receive raw intelligence from highly reliable source whose proven invaluable on other investigations. source provides intelligence on Russia’s efforts to support a presidential candidate, the info is consistent with other info
  
• Before inauguration your bosses, your leaders from all intelligence agencies brief president elect on classified info showing Russia influenced the election on behalf of President elect. President elect rejects intelligence from all your superiors and suggests Russia innocent
  
• From the summer of 2015 all the way through the election and after inauguration, you watch as the candidate, president elect and now president offers overt effusive support for Vladimir Putin who you know has been helping the President get elected.
  
• Shortly after inauguration, your new commander-in-chief spouts false information about Polish aggression toward Belarus. This is not supported by the Intelligence community you are in, and the only source for this viewpoint is Russian propaganda
  
• After firing of National Security Advisor that lies to you agencies investigators, the President corners your boss 1-1 asks him to go easy on National Security Advisor who lies about his conversation with Russians
  
• During this period, the President inexplicably and repeatedly asks your boss if he’s under investigation with regards to Russia, despite your boss and other intel heads going out of their way to brief the President about Kremlin efforts to potentially compromise & manipulate him
  
• While Congressional committees investigate Russian interference, the President fires your boss for his handling of an email investigation into the President’s opponent, an investigation that helped elevate the President rather than hurt him
  
• You later find out a draft memo from President to your boss regarding his firing cited the Russia investigation
  
• The President then goes on national television and in an interview says he fired your boss because of the Russia investigation
  
• A week after firing your boss, the President invites Russian leaders into the Oval Office, Russian photographers capture the moment, but US media is not allowed to observe. President then brags to Russian leaders about firing your boss
  
• Sometime during the spring, if you’re not already aware, you read a news story alleging the President’s son-in-law may have sought a way to communicate with Russia via a back channel not monitored by you and your colleagues
  
• During summer, you watch the President attend NATO summit and shove Montenegro PM, in an Interview claim Montenegro is aggressive, might start a war. This mirrors Russian propaganda & you know Russia backed covert operation destabilize Montenegrin election
  
• For next year, either you, your colleagues and your organization, FBI, are discredited by President. He mixes true and false information in public disclosures which you are not allowed to respond to. If you do respond, your accused of leaking and could be fired or even jailed
  
• Documents & information from confidential sources you’ve pledged to protect, are selectively leaked into public through those who are supposed to provide government oversight. These inappropriate disclosures make your job as an investigator nearly impossible & hurts your sources
  
• At some point during the summer or before, you learn that the President’s son was receiving & responding to direct messages from website that was releasing emails stolen from the President’s opponent by Russia
  
• 1st two years President’s term, you watch him take a negative, adversarial stance toward NATO and particularly Germany. This strains your relationship with your most valuable intel partners, your Counterterrorism agent colleagues depend on them & they help fight war on terror
  
• Over next 2 years, President aggressively seeks meetings with Putin who helped elect him. Need for meetings is not clear. one President meets in private with Putin for 2 hours without witnesses but translator. To this day, you, your bosses don’t really know what was discussed
  
• President emerges from private meeting with Putin and on world stage in Helsinki accepts and validates Russian denials about election interference & rejects years of your teams intel work. This badly damages your reputation and partner trust with your organization
  
• Separately, your President publicly discusses a Russian proposed partnership on cyber security, this insane concept is mind boggling to you as an investigator as you’ve just spent years tracking these same Russians who just attacked your country
  
• Even further, your President publicly mentions a possible exchange where Russian investigators might interview and interrogate you and other Americans about their attack on you and America. A crazy, frightening and bizarre threat to you as a civil servant.
  
• Throughout your investigation into Russian interference, you watch as your President’s attacks on the Special Counsel, Justice Department & FBI are amplified and spread in America by the very Russian troll social media accounts and state sponsored propaganda you are investigating
  
• Throughout the Special Counsel indictments, hearings and trials, you watch the President and his legal team publicly interject, discredit witnesses and discuss pardons, all subverting the rule of law and justice which you’ve dedicated your life to protect and defend
  
• You either know or learn a parallel investigation shows Russians representing a bogus Russian gun rights movement penetrated the political party hosting members who’ve tried to discredit you - you recognize this as a TEXTBOOK espionage/influence op you learned at FBI academy
  
• After two years, the Attorney General over you, who appropriately recused himself from Russia investigation, is fired for seemingly no clear reason after taking public lashings from the President
  
• Your AG is replaced by an acting AG whose unqualified for position, has limited experience justify such high level appointment, you’ve watched him on TV discrediting your agency and your team’s investigation despite seeing none of evidence or knowing anything Russian influence
  
• The same month, the President’s personal lawyer pleads guilty in federal court and says he continued negotiations throughout almost the entire Presidential campaign for a Tower in Moscow. This is in opposition to President’s public denials.
  
• You read public reporting that the best apartment in the Moscow Tower project pursued by the President’s business was offered to Russia’s President Putin, the same Putin your President always sides with over you and your agency, the Putin who helped your President win
  
• You either knew or learned through a redaction error that the President’s campaign manager was alleged to have lied about providing polling data to a Russian whom he owed money, via a former Russian GRU contact
  

Massive coincidence, indeed

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