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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (9 Viewers)

Here is what I am envisioning as the corroborating evidence:

1.  Cohen prepares his written remarks for the congressional testimony.

2.  He wants to ensure that he and Trump are on the same page.

3.  He send a draft copy of the remarks to Don Jr. (Because Trump Sr. does not do email)

4.  Junior passes on draft to Senior (and perhaps significantly to other people who are now in legal jeopardy) for review

5.  Junior responds to Cohen with either edits or an OK from Senior to submit that testimony to Congress.
Remember that according to the article some of the corroborating evidence is "interviews with multiple witnesses" by the special counsel's office, not including Cohen. 
So even if Don Jr copped to all this in talking to Mueller (which seems unlikely) there's still at least one other person out there corroborating.

 
"Oh, hi there Chris Hanson.  Wow I sure didn't expect to see you here.  You see, I just drove over to visit what I thought was a 12 year old girl to warn her in person about the dangers of meeting strangers online."
"I was just going fishing."

"It looks like what you were fishing for was sex with a 12 year old girl!"

 
Remember that according to the article some of the corroborating evidence is "interviews with multiple witnesses" by the special counsel's office, not including Cohen. 
So even if Don Jr copped to all this in talking to Mueller (which seems unlikely) there's still at least one other person out there corroborating.
Yeah - I was thinking maybe McGahn 

McGahn gets the prepared remarks - he does not know the details, so he runs it by Trump, who says that looks good - or something to that effect.

 
Article One of Nixon bill of impeachment, approved by House Judiciary Committee, accused Nixon of “approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counselling witnesses with respect to...false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings."
Huh.

 
Playing devils advocate but how concrete was the obstruction evidence against President Clinton when he was accused of telling Monica Lewinski to deny they had sexual relations in her affidavit? I believe not a single Democrat Senator voted guilty on the obstruction of justice charges.  Will this come back to haunt any potential impeachment of Trump? (All this of course is dependent upon “documents”proving Trump told Cohen to lie)

 
Playing devils advocate but how concrete was the obstruction evidence against President Clinton when he was accused of telling Monica Lewinski to deny they had sexual relations in her affidavit? I believe not a single Democrat Senator voted guilty on the obstruction of justice charges.  Will this come back to haunt any potential impeachment of Trump? (All this of course is dependent upon “documents”proving Trump told Cohen to lie)
Clinton should have been removed from office, but wasn't.

It does not follow that Trump should remain in office.

 
Article One of Nixon bill of impeachment, approved by House Judiciary Committee, accused Nixon of “approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counselling witnesses with respect to...false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings."
Assuming the reporting is accurate (and I have zero reason to believe otherwise), I count at least three no-brainer items ready for Articles of Impeachment as soon as Congress has done a satistfactory investigation to confirm the widely agreed upon facts:
 

- Obstruction of justice; suborning perjury w/ Cohen

- Felony campaign finance violation: directing Cohen to make hidden payments to Daniels, MacDougal and AMI

- Emoluments w/r/t foreign guests at Trump Hotel, a clear violation of the oath of office pledge to uphold the Constitution

Obviously there's several other possibilities that require much more investigation and analysis: broader obstruction of justice w/r/t the Russia investigation, pushing federal law enforcement to investigate political enemies (see Art 1 Sec 4 and Art 2 Sec 2 of the Nixon articles), bribery, endangering national security by leaking classified information to the Russians, and on and on and on. And the Dems should obviously take their time and compile all of it, you only get one bite at the apple here. But with this news I think we're past the point of wondering whether they should initiate an impeachment inquiry.

 
It's gone from no evidence, to everybody does it, to it's not a crime. 
No, there is still no evidence that Trump campaign ‘colluded’ or ‘conspired’ with Russia to affect the election in some way. Zero.  

Even in Manafort’s case where he transferred spring 2016 polling data to Kilimnik- the only feasible instance of collusion so far, already extremely tenuous at best- Kilimnik’s “Russian intelligence ties” are unclear.  

Manafort’s employment of Kilimnik has fueled speculation because Mueller has stated that Kilimnik has “ties to a Russian intelligence service and had such ties in 2016.”

Yet Mueller’s only references that Kilmnik has Kremlin “ties” came in two court filings in 2017 and 2018, and it’s not clear what Mueller meant in either case. In April 2018, Manafort’s attorneys told a Virginia judge that they have made “multiple discovery requests” seeking any contacts between Manafort and “Russian intelligence officials,” but that the special counsel informed them that “there are no materials responsive to [those] requests.” “ 

In this interview Kilimnik talks about his work with Manafort on the failed deal to bring Ukraine to the EU, and his work for the State Dept.-funded IRI.  Kilimnik was born in Soviet-era Ukraine and attended the First Department of the Moscow Military Red-Banner Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR from ‘87-‘92.  Whatever evidence there may be of his ‘Russian intelligence ties’ in 2016 is secret, and conflicts with mainstream reporting.  

The point isn't to “defend Trump.”  It’s that this unfounded conspiracy theory- what appears to be a total fabrication paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC- has dragged the US into the dirt for 2 years, brought back McCarthyism, and is headed toward a new arms race.  It’s damaged this country’s civic wellbeing for years to come, and opened the door for technocrats/states to censor their platforms under the auspices of fighting ‘Russian disinformation’.  The media has crapped on the floor of journalism in the pursuit of this clickbait.  

If Mueller knows Trump is not a Russian “plant” and has let the country dabble in this conspiracy theory for 2 years, I think that’s a disgrace.  It’s long past time to end this charade.

 
No, there is still no evidence that Trump campaign ‘colluded’ or ‘conspired’ with Russia to affect the election in some way. Zero.  

Even in Manafort’s case where he transferred spring 2016 polling data to Kilimnik- the only feasible instance of collusion so far, already extremely tenuous at best- Kilimnik’s “Russian intelligence ties” are unclear.  

Manafort’s employment of Kilimnik has fueled speculation because Mueller has stated that Kilimnik has “ties to a Russian intelligence service and had such ties in 2016.”

Yet Mueller’s only references that Kilmnik has Kremlin “ties” came in two court filings in 2017 and 2018, and it’s not clear what Mueller meant in either case. In April 2018, Manafort’s attorneys told a Virginia judge that they have made “multiple discovery requests” seeking any contacts between Manafort and “Russian intelligence officials,” but that the special counsel informed them that “there are no materials responsive to [those] requests.” “ 

In this interview Kilimnik talks about his work with Manafort on the failed deal to bring Ukraine to the EU, and his work for the State Dept.-funded IRI.  Kilimnik was born in Soviet-era Ukraine and attended the First Department of the Moscow Military Red-Banner Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR from ‘87-‘92.  Whatever evidence there may be of his ‘Russian intelligence ties’ in 2016 is secret, and conflicts with mainstream reporting.  

The point isn't to “defend Trump.”  It’s that this unfounded conspiracy theory- what appears to be a total fabrication paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC- has dragged the US into the dirt for 2 years, brought back McCarthyism, and is headed toward a new arms race.  It’s damaged this country’s civic wellbeing for years to come, and opened the door for technocrats/states to censor their platforms under the auspices of fighting ‘Russian disinformation’.  The media has crapped on the floor of journalism in the pursuit of this clickbait.  

If Mueller knows Trump is not a Russian “plant” and has let the country dabble in this conspiracy theory for 2 years, I think that’s a disgrace.  It’s long past time to end this charade.
Do you think Trump is trying to impede or obstruct this investigation? If you do, why?

 
No, there is still no evidence that Trump campaign ‘colluded’ or ‘conspired’ with Russia to affect the election in some way. Zero.  

Even in Manafort’s case where he transferred spring 2016 polling data to Kilimnik- the only feasible instance of collusion so far, already extremely tenuous at best- Kilimnik’s “Russian intelligence ties” are unclear.  

Manafort’s employment of Kilimnik has fueled speculation because Mueller has stated that Kilimnik has “ties to a Russian intelligence service and had such ties in 2016.”

Yet Mueller’s only references that Kilmnik has Kremlin “ties” came in two court filings in 2017 and 2018, and it’s not clear what Mueller meant in either case. In April 2018, Manafort’s attorneys told a Virginia judge that they have made “multiple discovery requests” seeking any contacts between Manafort and “Russian intelligence officials,” but that the special counsel informed them that “there are no materials responsive to [those] requests.” “ 

In this interview Kilimnik talks about his work with Manafort on the failed deal to bring Ukraine to the EU, and his work for the State Dept.-funded IRI.  Kilimnik was born in Soviet-era Ukraine and attended the First Department of the Moscow Military Red-Banner Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR from ‘87-‘92.  Whatever evidence there may be of his ‘Russian intelligence ties’ in 2016 is secret, and conflicts with mainstream reporting.  

The point isn't to “defend Trump.”  It’s that this unfounded conspiracy theory- what appears to be a total fabrication paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC- has dragged the US into the dirt for 2 years, brought back McCarthyism, and is headed toward a new arms race.  It’s damaged this country’s civic wellbeing for years to come, and opened the door for technocrats/states to censor their platforms under the auspices of fighting ‘Russian disinformation’.  The media has crapped on the floor of journalism in the pursuit of this clickbait.  

If Mueller knows Trump is not a Russian “plant” and has let the country dabble in this conspiracy theory for 2 years, I think that’s a disgrace.  It’s long past time to end this charade.
KEEP HOPE ALIVE!!!

 
The stories and insanity come so fast I thought it would be useful to recap the past weeks events:

  • President was / is the subject of a counterintelligence probe by the FBI
  • Manafort, Trump's campaign manager, gave confidential polling information to Russian intelligence agent essentially proving collusion between campaign and Russia
  • Trump's gov't shutdown becomes the longest in US history is will likely have major impact on economy
  • The President took the notes of his interpreter in his secret meetings with Putin...you know the one who orchestrated the hack of our elections 
  • Pence states ISIS is dead hours after ISIS bombs and kills 4 US citizens in Syria
  • Trump implicated in coordinating Cohen's lies to congress over Trump Moscow project likely has impeachment implications 
  • Guiliani states that the campaign may have colluded with Russia but NOT the President
  • Mueller likely investigating Nunes role in Inauguration with respect to foreign influence 
  • Republican's agree to reduce sanctions on Russian oligarch who was Manafort's former boss and was indebted to 
  • Cohen, Trump's fixer, paid cash and a boxing glove during campaign to an IT firm to try and rig the poll results in Trump's favor
  • Pelosi cancels SOTU on the House floor
  • Trump cancels Pelosi's trip to Afghanistan in retaliation
  • Trump serves fast food hamberders to college football team    :D


the crazy thing is I probably missed a major thing or two....quite insane and another week of solid winning for the most corrupt administration in our history...any one of these is a bigger scandal than anything in 8 years of the Obama admin...it's just insane.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The stories and insanity come so fast I thought it would be useful to recap the past weeks events:

  • President was / is the subject of a counterintelligence probe by the FBI
  • Manafort, Trump's campaign manager, gave confidential polling information to Russian intelligence agent
  • Trump's gov't shutdown becomes the longest in US history is will likely have major impact on economy
  • The President took the notes of his interpreter in his secret meetings with Putin...you know the one who orchestrated the hack of our elections 
  • Pence states ISIS is dead hours after ISIS bombs and kills 4 US citizens in Syria
  • Trump implicated in coordinating Cohen's lies to congress over Trump Moscow project likely has impeachment implications 
  • Guiliani states that the campaign may have colluded with Russia but NOT the President
  • Mueller likely investigating Nunes role in Inauguration with respect to foreign influence 
  • Republican's agree to reduce sanctions on Russian oligarch who was Manafort's former boss and was indebted to 
  • Cohen, Trump's fixer, paid cash and a boxing glove during campaign to an IT firm to try and rig the poll results in Trump's favor
  • Pelosi cancels SOTU on the House floor
  • Trump cancels Pelosi's trip to Afghanistan in retaliation
  • Trump serves fast food hamberders to college football team    :D


the crazy thing is I probably missed a major thing or two....quite insane and another week of solid winning for the most corrupt administration in our history...any one of these is a bigger scandal than anything in 8 years of the Obama admin...it's just insane.
BUTTER EMAILS!!! BENGHAZI!!!!1!!! URANIUM ONE!!!!!!1!1!!!!

 
No, there is still no evidence that Trump campaign ‘colluded’ or ‘conspired’ with Russia to affect the election in some way. Zero.  

Even in Manafort’s case where he transferred spring 2016 polling data to Kilimnik- the only feasible instance of collusion so far, already extremely tenuous at best- Kilimnik’s “Russian intelligence ties” are unclear.  

Manafort’s employment of Kilimnik has fueled speculation because Mueller has stated that Kilimnik has “ties to a Russian intelligence service and had such ties in 2016.”

Yet Mueller’s only references that Kilmnik has Kremlin “ties” came in two court filings in 2017 and 2018, and it’s not clear what Mueller meant in either case. In April 2018, Manafort’s attorneys told a Virginia judge that they have made “multiple discovery requests” seeking any contacts between Manafort and “Russian intelligence officials,” but that the special counsel informed them that “there are no materials responsive to [those] requests.” “ 

In this interview Kilimnik talks about his work with Manafort on the failed deal to bring Ukraine to the EU, and his work for the State Dept.-funded IRI.  Kilimnik was born in Soviet-era Ukraine and attended the First Department of the Moscow Military Red-Banner Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR from ‘87-‘92.  Whatever evidence there may be of his ‘Russian intelligence ties’ in 2016 is secret, and conflicts with mainstream reporting.  

The point isn't to “defend Trump.”  It’s that this unfounded conspiracy theory- what appears to be a total fabrication paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC- has dragged the US into the dirt for 2 years, brought back McCarthyism, and is headed toward a new arms race.  It’s damaged this country’s civic wellbeing for years to come, and opened the door for technocrats/states to censor their platforms under the auspices of fighting ‘Russian disinformation’.  The media has crapped on the floor of journalism in the pursuit of this clickbait.  

If Mueller knows Trump is not a Russian “plant” and has let the country dabble in this conspiracy theory for 2 years, I think that’s a disgrace.  It’s long past time to end this charade.
You seriously believe that? Literally, every single statement in that paragraph is wrong.

 
No, there is still no evidence that Trump campaign ‘colluded’ or ‘conspired’ with Russia to affect the election in some way. Zero.  

Even in Manafort’s case where he transferred spring 2016 polling data to Kilimnik- the only feasible instance of collusion so far, already extremely tenuous at best- Kilimnik’s “Russian intelligence ties” are unclear.  

Manafort’s employment of Kilimnik has fueled speculation because Mueller has stated that Kilimnik has “ties to a Russian intelligence service and had such ties in 2016.”

Yet Mueller’s only references that Kilmnik has Kremlin “ties” came in two court filings in 2017 and 2018, and it’s not clear what Mueller meant in either case. In April 2018, Manafort’s attorneys told a Virginia judge that they have made “multiple discovery requests” seeking any contacts between Manafort and “Russian intelligence officials,” but that the special counsel informed them that “there are no materials responsive to [those] requests.” “ 

In this interview Kilimnik talks about his work with Manafort on the failed deal to bring Ukraine to the EU, and his work for the State Dept.-funded IRI.  Kilimnik was born in Soviet-era Ukraine and attended the First Department of the Moscow Military Red-Banner Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR from ‘87-‘92.  Whatever evidence there may be of his ‘Russian intelligence ties’ in 2016 is secret, and conflicts with mainstream reporting.  

The point isn't to “defend Trump.”  It’s that this unfounded conspiracy theory- what appears to be a total fabrication paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC- has dragged the US into the dirt for 2 years, brought back McCarthyism, and is headed toward a new arms race.  It’s damaged this country’s civic wellbeing for years to come, and opened the door for technocrats/states to censor their platforms under the auspices of fighting ‘Russian disinformation’.  The media has crapped on the floor of journalism in the pursuit of this clickbait.  

If Mueller knows Trump is not a Russian “plant” and has let the country dabble in this conspiracy theory for 2 years, I think that’s a disgrace.  It’s long past time to end this charade.
Right

 
The stories and insanity come so fast I thought it would be useful to recap the past weeks events:

  • President was / is the subject of a counterintelligence probe by the FBI
  • Manafort, Trump's campaign manager, gave confidential polling information to Russian intelligence agent essentially proving collusion between campaign and Russia
  • Trump's gov't shutdown becomes the longest in US history is will likely have major impact on economy
  • The President took the notes of his interpreter in his secret meetings with Putin...you know the one who orchestrated the hack of our elections 
  • Pence states ISIS is dead hours after ISIS bombs and kills 4 US citizens in Syria
  • Trump implicated in coordinating Cohen's lies to congress over Trump Moscow project likely has impeachment implications 
  • Guiliani states that the campaign may have colluded with Russia but NOT the President
  • Mueller likely investigating Nunes role in Inauguration with respect to foreign influence 
  • Republican's agree to reduce sanctions on Russian oligarch who was Manafort's former boss and was indebted to 
  • Cohen, Trump's fixer, paid cash and a boxing glove during campaign to an IT firm to try and rig the poll results in Trump's favor
  • Pelosi cancels SOTU on the House floor
  • Trump cancels Pelosi's trip to Afghanistan in retaliation
  • Trump serves fast food hamberders to college football team    :D


the crazy thing is I probably missed a major thing or two....quite insane and another week of solid winning for the most corrupt administration in our history...any one of these is a bigger scandal than anything in 8 years of the Obama admin...it's just insane.
You missed the President directed people to lie to Congress. When you add all of that up, it makes it look like the administration is flawed. 

 
Clinton should have been removed from office, but wasn't.

It does not follow that Trump should remain in office.
My point is that the Democrats may have set the bar pretty low. If the proof of obstruction was solid with documents in both cases I would agree  that both should have been impeached.

 
My point is that the Democrats may have set the bar pretty low. If the proof of obstruction was solid with documents in both cases I would agree  that both should have been impeached.
Clinto was impeached (dec 19, 1998). He was, however, not removed from office

 
Griffin‏Verified account @kylegriffin1 17m17 minutes ago

Schiff: "These allegations may prove unfounded, but, if true, they would constitute both the subornation of perjury as well as obstruction of justice. Our committee is already working to secure additional witness testimony and documents related to the Trump Tower Moscow deal."

 
:coffee:  I hope he told the truth.

Ken Dilanian‏Verified account @KenDilanianNBC

FollowFollow @KenDilanianNBC

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According to the NYT story last fall, one of the written questions to Trump from Mueller was, “What communication did you have with Michael D. Cohen, Felix Sater, and others, including foreign nationals, about Russian real estate developments during the campaign?”

7:45 AM - 18 Jan 2019
Narrator: He didn't tell the truth.

 
Griffin‏Verified account @kylegriffin1 17m17 minutes ago

Schiff: "These allegations may prove unfounded, but, if true, they would constitute both the subornation of perjury as well as obstruction of justice. Our committee is already working to secure additional witness testimony and documents related to the Trump Tower Moscow deal."
Why do people keep putting this caveat on everything?  Is it because it was reported by BuzzFeed News?

That seems silly to me.  BuzzFeed News does super elite upper-tier reporting.  Denigrating them because they're under the same umbrella as the people who put out dumb listicles and quizzes about which Game of Thrones character you are is like denigrating ABC News and Fox News because they're under the same umbrella as the people who put out Dancing with the Stars and The Masked Singer.

 
:coffee:  I hope he told the truth.

Ken Dilanian‏Verified account @KenDilanianNBC

FollowFollow @KenDilanianNBC

More

According to the NYT story last fall, one of the written questions to Trump from Mueller was, “What communication did you have with Michael D. Cohen, Felix Sater, and others, including foreign nationals, about Russian real estate developments during the campaign?”

7:45 AM - 18 Jan 2019
Narrator: He didn't tell the truth.
He also claimed, on camera, that he personally answered all of the questions himself.  So like a typical 9 year old, I'm guessing the answer was simply "none".

 
Why do people keep putting this caveat on everything?  Is it because it was reported by BuzzFeed News?

That seems silly to me.  BuzzFeed News does super elite upper-tier reporting.  Denigrating them because they're under the same umbrella as the people who put out dumb listicles and quizzes about which Game of Thrones character you are is like denigrating ABC News and Fox News because they're under the same umbrella as the people who put out Dancing with the Stars and The Masked Singer.
Prudence is the right course of action here - when there are many unknowns.  It does not matter where the reporting comes from - when you will be an arbiter of its veracity, you should wait to see the evidence yourself, rather than take a position sight unseen.

 
Why do people keep putting this caveat on everything?  Is it because it was reported by BuzzFeed News?

That seems silly to me.  BuzzFeed News does super elite upper-tier reporting.  Denigrating them because they're under the same umbrella as the people who put out dumb listicles and quizzes about which Game of Thrones character you are is like denigrating ABC News and Fox News because they're under the same umbrella as the people who put out Dancing with the Stars and The Masked Singer.
Andrea Mitchell just said twice on MSNBC that NBC has been unable to verify or independently confirm the Buzz Feed article.

 
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Prudence is the right course of action here - when there are many unknowns.  It does not matter where the reporting comes from - when you will be an arbiter of its veracity, you should wait to see the evidence yourself, rather than take a position sight unseen.
Sure, I agree. I just feel like there's a lot more skepticism than there would be if the article had appeared in the NY Times. I don't think there should be- if anything I think the Times should be trusted less. BuzzFeed News is batting 1.000 on the Trump-Russia story all the way back to running the dossier. They even corrected the New Yorker's story about Cohen's banking records being lifted from Treasury.

 
Clinto was impeached (dec 19, 1998). He was, however, not removed from office
The House impeached, but Clinton survived what the media called "the Senate impeachment trial".  I always wonder why people like to say he was impeached when the Senate must also concur. 

 

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