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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (14 Viewers)

Herb said:
While I don't agree with some of your assertions here, I don't have a problem with the Durham investigation itself, as long as it is an actual investigation into actual potential malfeasance. Much of it, IMO, smacks of the same partisan disingenuousness as the Kobach-led voter fraud "investigation" that was a complete joke. But I will wait until Durham is finished (if he ever is) before forming any real opinions.

Welcome back, Ren. I enjoy having your perspective around here, even when I disagree!
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I dunno, unlike the election fraud claims I think there's actually a lot of meat there regarding malfeasance in how this trumprussia crap spun out of control.  But I don't trust Durham either.

And thanks, it is nice to be back.  You were always one of the more levelheaded people on here so I appreciate that.  

 
dozer said:
You’re the one talking about collusion, not me.

Hundreds of contacts between Trumps campaign and the Kremlin? Yes.

Collusion? Probably, for sure an attempt, but who knows what they pulled off. Between the 11 obstruction counts, the destruction of evidence, the shakey joint defense agreement, the subpoenas defied, I’ll go with Mueller’s finding.
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sure, I'll go with Muellers findings also.  3 plus years & 80 mill on a political incited fake dossier.  plus 3 plus years of we got them all now.  Mueller playing 3d chess & the idiots have no idea what is coming.  cool stuff.  congrats to the media for selling this garbage & Schiff lying his head off for 3 years to anyone who would listen, which just happened to be the mainsteam media and a bunch of people on this board.  like I stated, way to much invested to admit it was a sham to start.  fine with me.

have a good one.

 
ren hoek said:
I dunno, unlike the election fraud claims I think there's actually a lot of meat there regarding malfeasance in how this trumprussia crap spun out of control.  But I don't trust Durham either.

And thanks, it is nice to be back.  You were always one of the more levelheaded people on here so I appreciate that.  
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so self imposed break?  hopefully not health related.

have a good one.

cheers.

 
dozer said:
Here is Durham’s story:

The Trump-Russia probe was launched in July 2016 when a former spy with no prior FBI contacts sent the FBI allegations about a Trump adviser. The ex-spy was being paid by the Clinton campaign.

That’s it. End of Story. Nice and simple, so assemble your talking points.

Despite all this:

The FBI started investigating the Trump campaign in 2015.

Steele had contacts in the FBI going back years.

Republicans first paid Fusion GPS.

The Russians most likely have Kompromat on Trump.

Candidate Trump had a signed memorandum of understanding to build Trump Tower Moscow, and simultaneously kept emphatically repeating over and over that he had no deals “whatsoever” in Russia.

The first guy he hires for his National Security Team is oozing with sketchy Russian connections, and was already under investigation by the FBI. (Page)

Papadoupolus? Yep, National Security team.

Manafort will work for free… while under contract with a Kremlin guy… whom he gave internal polling data.

Flynn. Fired. Found guilty.

Eric Prince, Steve Bannon, my gosh, the list goes on forever with all the sketchy contacts.

The June 10 meeting with the Kremlin lawyer.

Giuliani, Lev Parnas, Igor Fruman, COME ON!

Over and over again, this Russian connection, that Russian connection,

Is It really so hard to believe that a dossier of raw intelligence, which the author admits to be “about 70% accurate”, can be used as part of the evidence to establish probable cause in one FISA?

The only thing that I know of that has been proven wrong about the dossier is the “Michael Cohen in Prague” thing.

And, as is the nature of raw intelligence, much of it can never be corroborated.
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This has probably been refuted in this thread over a thousand times, yet it keeps getting repeated.

 
shadrap said:
sure, I'll go with Muellers findings also.  3 plus years & 80 mill on a political incited fake dossier.  plus 3 plus years of we got them all now.  Mueller playing 3d chess & the idiots have no idea what is coming.  cool stuff.  congrats to the media for selling this garbage & Schiff lying his head off for 3 years to anyone who would listen, which just happened to be the mainsteam media and a bunch of people on this board.  like I stated, way to much invested to admit it was a sham to start.  fine with me.

have a good one.
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Fake dossier? What are you talking about? Do you you have proof the dossier is fabricated? You should monetize that!! And then send it to Durham, since he didn’t come to any such conclusion.

Fake dossier… good one.

 
In all these thousands of pages has anyone explained how Russia! interfered and how it changed the result of Trump’s landslide electoral victory in 2016?

I’ll hang up and listen.  

 
dozer said:
Fake dossier? What are you talking about? Do you you have proof the dossier is fabricated? You should monetize that!! And then send it to Durham, since he didn’t come to any such conclusion.

Fake dossier… good one.
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Fake it is, unless you no longer trust MSM reporting.

To oversimplify the volumes of information now available. It is clear that Doschenko was the puppet for  an insidious move from the Clinton campaign.  What we now know is that Fiona Hill was feeding Doschenko information to use, that he brought forward.  We also know that early on elements of FBI caught on and documented this and noted that the Steele memo was Russian active disinformation, but the FBI brought it forward as fact and faked documents to secure warrants etc. it is likely Obama and Biden had some knowledge as well, of course we will never be able to prove that.

Look, regardless of your political bias we really do not want this.  What if it were true that the Republicans managed to insert a bunch of conservatives into the DOJ and they did this to Biden? That would still be wrong. We simply do not want these agencies serving political interests. 

Fortunately, it is clear some of these people will be going to jail.

Link

Link

Link

Link

 
knowledge dropper said:
In all these thousands of pages has anyone explained how Russia! interfered and how it changed the result of Trump’s landslide electoral victory in 2016?

I’ll hang up and listen.  
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yes....Mueller went into great detail about how they interfered...you know this.

Did anyone claim it changed the result of the election?

 
  • Smile
Reactions: JAA
Sparky Big Time said:
Fake it is, unless you no longer trust MSM reporting.

To oversimplify the volumes of information now available. It is clear that Doschenko was the puppet for  an insidious move from the Clinton campaign.  What we now know is that Fiona Hill was feeding Doschenko information to use, that he brought forward.  We also know that early on elements of FBI caught on and documented this and noted that the Steele memo was Russian active disinformation, but the FBI brought it forward as fact and faked documents to secure warrants etc. it is likely Obama and Biden had some knowledge as well, of course we will never be able to prove that.

Look, regardless of your political bias we really do not want this.  What if it were true that the Republicans managed to insert a bunch of conservatives into the DOJ and they did this to Biden? That would still be wrong. We simply do not want these agencies serving political interests. 

Fortunately, it is clear some of these people will be going to jail.

Link

Link

Link

Link
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The above is a false right wing fever dream.

 
The dossier has its issues...there is no doubt there.  The problem with this narrative is pushing that to mean the entire investigation was then tainted by it...which is against all known facts.  Horowitz stated the exact opposite.  Durham has not issued anything saying otherwise either.

 
dozer said:
The above is a false right wing fever dream.
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Given that it is documented at this stage, it is less of a dream than a verifiable fact.  Durham will sort this out.  We just have to be patient as the indictments and convictions unfold.

This is not about right wing or left wing, this is about that is right and what is wrong.  If these people did this to Biden it would still be wrong.  They have no right to falsify information to attempt to unseat a duly elected official.

 
GoBirds said:
That was settled awhile ago, which was why I was surprised it’s still a thing. Nothinburger. 
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Its not still a thing...KD brought it up.  Nobody is else is making the claim of changing the results of the election.  Was anyone ever making that claim in here?

 
dozer said:
Durham asserts that the FBI was “targeting a United States citizen” (Page) because of reports it received from Steele.

That's not true.

The FBI had been investigating Page for years, and for good reason. The babe in the woods routine for Carter Page is rich.

Remember that “probable cause”, the lowest standard of proof acknowledged in our criminal justice system and the slim degree of evidence required for a FISA warrant in most cases, was arguably already in the FBI’s possession by July 2016 because of its prior dealings with Page.
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  FBI may have been investigating Page for years but I haven't ever found any credible information on that.  But once the CIA confirmed Page was indeed working with the CIA it was over as far as the FISA's regarding Page and the whole basis of the investigation.  That's why did the FBI lawyers deliberately scrubbed that info and hide it from the FISA court.  Anything beyond that falsehood that was excluded would be/was forbidden fruit as they were just fishing to find anything at all.  So between the Page FISA lies and the phoney Clinton dossier as the two lynchpins of the FBI basis to investigate Trump and the so called collusion, none of it was true or admissible if it had been documented to the FISA court.  It is obvious why the FBI omitted and lied about Page and the Dossier.  Your revisionist story does not change the facts   

 
Sparky Big Time said:
Given that it is documented at this stage, it is less of a dream than a verifiable fact.  Durham will sort this out.  We just have to be patient as the indictments and convictions unfold.

This is not about right wing or left wing, this is about that is right and what is wrong.  If these people did this to Biden it would still be wrong.  They have no right to falsify information to attempt to unseat a duly elected official.
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So noble to stand up for the rule of law. So proudly standing up for DOJ investigations.

I’m sure you are equally angered when you reflect on all the lies told, all the justice obstructed, all the laws broken, and the massive deceit to our country that we all witnessed from Donald Trump and his closest allies.

You must be seething still about the 11 cases of obstruction found clearly described in the Mueller Report.

How angry you must have been as Trump and his political team, even as they claimed there was nothing involving Trump and Russia for anyone in federal law enforcement to investigate, often refused to participate in voluntary interviews.

How angry you must be when you reflect on how Hillary Clinton testified all day long on live TV to argue against the accusations against her, when in the case of Donald Trump, we were lucky to get only written answers that he couldn’t be cross examined about, and that also contained lies that could never be addressed.

I bet you were livid when you heard that Steve Bannon, Eric Prince, and Don Jr. destroyed evidence on their phones and defied subpoenas, and were then protect by the DOJ, and the new definition of a joint defense agreement.

When Congress issued a criminal referral to the DOJ charging that Prince willfully mislead Congress, I’ll bet you were up in arms when William Barr refused to seek the truth.

And all those other criminal referrals? Against Jared Kushner, Don Jr., Eric Trump, Bannon, Sam Clovis?  Holy Cow! I’ll bet you were shaking mad when William Barr ignored all these criminal referrals.

Then, how happy and relieved you must have been to find that there is truth in our justice system when criminals Roger Stone, Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn finally were prosecuted and found guilty of many crimes against the United States of America. I can only imagine your dismay and heartbreak when those seditious traitors were pardoned for these crimes we know they committed.

As Durham goes after peripheral characters such as Clinesmith and Michael Sussman, who basically flubbed details that would not have altered the Russia investigation in any way, and now this weak indictment of Danchenko, we are being fed the ridiculous notion that once again there is a massive deep state cabal of criminals lead by….. THE CLINTONS!!!

The indictment against Danchenko attacks precisely NONE of the raw intelligence that Danchenko provided to Steele, though it mentions in passing and WITHOUT PROOF, and as it happens, inaccurately, that much of that intelligence turned out to be incorrect.

 
jps said:
FBI may have been investigating Page for years but I haven't ever found any credible information on that.
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New York Times

Russian Spies Tried to Recruit Carter Page Before He Advised Trump.

"Russian intelligence operatives tried in 2013 to recruit an American businessman and eventual foreign policy adviser to the Trump campaign who is now part of the F.B.I. investigation into Russia’s interference into the American election."

Carter Page admitted to giving non-public information to men he knew worked for Russian intelligence and thereafter. That will get you invistigated by the FBI.

 
jps said:
  FBI may have been investigating Page for years but I haven't ever found any credible information on that.  But once the CIA confirmed Page was indeed working with the CIA it was over as far as the FISA's regarding Page and the whole basis of the investigation.  That's why did the FBI lawyers deliberately scrubbed that info and hide it from the FISA court.  Anything beyond that falsehood that was excluded would be/was forbidden fruit as they were just fishing to find anything at all.  So between the Page FISA lies and the phoney Clinton dossier as the two lynchpins of the FBI basis to investigate Trump and the so called collusion, none of it was true or admissible if it had been documented to the FISA court.  It is obvious why the FBI omitted and lied about Page and the Dossier.  Your revisionist story does not change the facts   
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The whole basis for the investigation?  What are you basing that on?

Horowitz did not claim this...why are you?

 
All 35 pages of the Steele Dossier

If you choose to view this document keep in mind that, as its author and all intelligence officials say, it is raw intelligence.

It is widely accepted that the raw intelligence in the Steele dossier is likely almost exactly as accurate as Steele told the FBI and U.S. media it was once he released it: “about 70%.” 

 
dozer said:
So noble to stand up for the rule of law. So proudly standing up for DOJ investigations.

I’m sure you are equally angered when you reflect on all the lies told, all the justice obstructed, all the laws broken, and the massive deceit to our country that we all witnessed from Donald Trump and his closest allies.

You must be seething still about the 11 cases of obstruction found clearly described in the Mueller Report.

How angry you must have been as Trump and his political team, even as they claimed there was nothing involving Trump and Russia for anyone in federal law enforcement to investigate, often refused to participate in voluntary interviews.

How angry you must be when you reflect on how Hillary Clinton testified all day long on live TV to argue against the accusations against her, when in the case of Donald Trump, we were lucky to get only written answers that he couldn’t be cross examined about, and that also contained lies that could never be addressed.

I bet you were livid when you heard that Steve Bannon, Eric Prince, and Don Jr. destroyed evidence on their phones and defied subpoenas, and were then protect by the DOJ, and the new definition of a joint defense agreement.

When Congress issued a criminal referral to the DOJ charging that Prince willfully mislead Congress, I’ll bet you were up in arms when William Barr refused to seek the truth.

And all those other criminal referrals? Against Jared Kushner, Don Jr., Eric Trump, Bannon, Sam Clovis?  Holy Cow! I’ll bet you were shaking mad when William Barr ignored all these criminal referrals.

Then, how happy and relieved you must have been to find that there is truth in our justice system when criminals Roger Stone, Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn finally were prosecuted and found guilty of many crimes against the United States of America. I can only imagine your dismay and heartbreak when those seditious traitors were pardoned for these crimes we know they committed.

As Durham goes after peripheral characters such as Clinesmith and Michael Sussman, who basically flubbed details that would not have altered the Russia investigation in any way, and now this weak indictment of Danchenko, we are being fed the ridiculous notion that once again there is a massive deep state cabal of criminals lead by….. THE CLINTONS!!!

The indictment against Danchenko attacks precisely NONE of the raw intelligence that Danchenko provided to Steele, though it mentions in passing and WITHOUT PROOF, and as it happens, inaccurately, that much of that intelligence turned out to be incorrect.
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Lying did not suddenly become a thing when Trump entered office.  It has been a thing in politics for some time. It was not ok at any of those times.

The notion that politicians lie should not be surprising to us. The distinction drawn is accountability and it resides along political lines.

I find your focus on Trump rather than politicians in general to illuminate your bias.  

Durham has the pieces, has done the work, has shown us the map.  As these indictments transpire let us see if people still accept the DOJ or decide to pretend its a political witch hunt.  Wrong is wrong, that seems to have been lost.

 
sho nuff said:
Nothing what?  Nothing to support the strawman you are throwing out there as far as changing the results?  Sure.  If you want to play that game...go right ahead.
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Please keep on subject and not posters.  If you cannot define the Russian influence and results, just say so.  TIA. 

 
Sparky Big Time said:
Lying did not suddenly become a thing when Trump entered office.  It has been a thing in politics for some time. It was not ok at any of those times.

The notion that politicians lie should not be surprising to us. The distinction drawn is accountability and it resides along political lines.

I find your focus on Trump rather than politicians in general to illuminate your bias.  

Durham has the pieces, has done the work, has shown us the map.  As these indictments transpire let us see if people still accept the DOJ or decide to pretend its a political witch hunt.  Wrong is wrong, that seems to have been lost.
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So, no response other than "stop focusing on Trump?" When Trump was literally the focus of the initial investigation that we're discussing?

Weak. All while decrying how bias the "other side" is. You're better than this.

 
Sparky Big Time said:
I find your focus on Trump rather than politicians in general to illuminate your bias. 
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This is the Russia Investigation thread. Every post in this thread is about Trump.

And yes, I have a bias against Trump. In my opinion he is a terrible American, and should be held accountable for the damage he has laid to our great nation with his lies and his actions. Those that cover for him should also be held accountable.

 
“Speaking in confidence to a compatriot in late July 2016, Source E, an ethnic Russian close associate of Republican US presidential candidate Donald Trump, admitted that there was a well-developed conspiracy of cooperation between them and the Russian leadership. This was managed on the Trump side by the Republican candidate’s campaign manager, Paul Manafort, who was using foreign policy advisor, Carter Page, and others as intermediaries. The two sides had a mutual interest in defeating Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, whom President Putin apparently both hated and feared.”

My guess here is, The Trump campaign overestimated the commitment on the Russian side. They were made to believe that they had the benefit of cooperation, but due to the incompetence up and down the line in Trump world, they were played by the Russians and to some degree, Manafort, who clearly had ulterior motives in being Trumps "free" campaign manager.

 
dozer said:
All 35 pages of the Steele Dossier

If you choose to view this document keep in mind that, as its author and all intelligence officials say, it is raw intelligence.

It is widely accepted that the raw intelligence in the Steele dossier is likely almost exactly as accurate as Steele told the FBI and U.S. media it was once he released it: “about 70%.” 
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Page 9 summary:

Trump advisor Carter Page holds secret meetings in Moscow with Sechin and senior Kremlin Internal Affairs official, Divyekin.

Sechin raises issues of future bilateral US-Russia energy cooperation and associated lifting of western sanctions against Russia over Ukraine. Page non-committal in response.

Divyekin discusses release of Russian dossier of “kompromat” on Trump’s opponent, Hillary Clinton, but also hints at Kremlin possession of such material on Trump.

 
Page 20

Summary

Ex-Ukrainian President Yanukovych confides directly to Putin that he authorized kick-back payments to Manafort, as alleged in western media. Assures Russian President however there is no documentary evidence/trail.

Detail

Given Yanukovych’s (unimpressive) record in covering up his own corrupt tracks in the past, Putin and others in the Russian leadership were skeptical about the ex-Ukrainian president’s reassurances on this as relating to Manafort. They therefore still feared the scandal had legs, especially as Manafort had been commercially active in Ukraine right up to the time (in March 2016) when he joined Trumps campaign team. For them it therefore remained a point of potential political vulnerability an embarrassment.

 
dozer said:
“Speaking in confidence to a compatriot in late July 2016, Source E, an ethnic Russian close associate of Republican US presidential candidate Donald Trump, admitted that there was a well-developed conspiracy of cooperation between them and the Russian leadership. This was managed on the Trump side by the Republican candidate’s campaign manager, Paul Manafort, who was using foreign policy advisor, Carter Page, and others as intermediaries. The two sides had a mutual interest in defeating Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, whom President Putin apparently both hated and feared.”

My guess here is, The Trump campaign overestimated the commitment on the Russian side. They were made to believe that they had the benefit of cooperation, but due to the incompetence up and down the line in Trump world, they were played by the Russians and to some degree, Manafort, who clearly had ulterior motives in being Trumps "free" campaign manager.
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so anonymous source?  those are always fascinating.  I've got some of those.

so which publication did this come out of?  curious.

 
dozer said:
All 35 pages of the Steele Dossier

If you choose to view this document keep in mind that, as its author and all intelligence officials say, it is raw intelligence.

It is widely accepted that the raw intelligence in the Steele dossier is likely almost exactly as accurate as Steele told the FBI and U.S. media it was once he released it: “about 70%.” 
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You are delusional and just making things up.  "It is widely accepted that"?  By who exactly?

 
Soonerman said:
You are delusional and just making things up.  "It is widely accepted that"?  By who exactly?
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Do you understand what raw intelligence is? Do you understand that we have an intelligence community in our government? That continually, around the world, gathers intelligence? They have sources, sometimes the sources don’t pan out, sometimes they save lives.

Raw intelligence.

 
dozer said:
Do you understand what raw intelligence is? Do you understand that we have an intelligence community in our government? That continually, around the world, gathers intelligence? They have sources, sometimes the sources don’t pan out, sometimes they save lives.

Raw intelligence.
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You made the claim that the Clinton Dossier is "widely accepted" to be about 70% accurate.  By whom?  Easy question.  Bring forth the credible experts that stand behind that, and no Cori Bush doesn't count.

 
Soonerman said:
You made the claim that the Clinton Dossier is "widely accepted" to be about 70% accurate.  By whom?  Easy question.  Bring forth the credible experts that stand behind that, and no Cori Bush doesn't count.
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Do you understand what raw intelligence is? I guess you have to understand that.
 

Nobody gathers raw intelligence and says it’s 100%.

I use the 70% number because that’s what Steele himself claimed about his dossier.

it is widely accepted in the intelligence community that raw intelligence is exactly that. Raw. A starting point, as far as any investigation goes, with a less than 100% degree of accuracy.

 
I mean, this whole argument is over the accuracy of the Steele dossier. if we’re going to debate it, the least you could do is read it and take it for what it is. Raw intelligence, as is part of any investigation of this type.

 
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